West to Tennessee
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so we all forgot about the duke? the duchess and the king?
i want to see this play out. i want to see the new OC sweat. i want to see us kick ass as a surprise.
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Free agent RB Ahmad Bradshaw's fractured leg is "completely healed."
Bradshaw is suspended for Week 1 after pleading no contest to misdemeanor marijuana possession in May, however. If Bradshaw is going to get signed, it probably won't happen until after the opener, when vested veterans get their base salaries guaranteed. We would guess that Bradshaw does land with a team at some point. He is injury riddled, but still effective at age 29.id like see them pick up bradshaw now west is goneAside from the fractured leg, Bradshaw has chronically dealt with really bad feet. This has kept him from practicing and a full work load in the past. Even though he's a bad ass; we're probably only looking at a fraction of the player he was.
Jonas Gray intrigues me. Maybe BB/NE preferring an oft-troubled LeGarrette Blount gives this kid the kick in the dumpster he needs to giddyup and get after it. Pro Football Weekly Preview 2015 listed Jonas Gray as NE's Offensive breakout player. FWIW, Blount walked out on his last team (Pitt) at halftime on MNF here in Nashville not too long after he got arrested for marijuana possession. BB forgave that so Blount could be his workhorse in the playoffs. If a guy like that could get 2nd and 3rd chances - it might not hurt to have Pettine give Gray a 2nd chance.
Aside from the fractured leg, Bradshaw has chronically dealt with really bad feet. This has kept him from practicing and a full work load in the past. Even though he's a bad ass; we're probably only looking at a fraction of the player he was.
Jonas Gray intrigues me. Maybe BB/NE preferring an oft-troubled LeGarrette Blount gives this kid the kick in the dumpster he needs to giddyup and get after it. Pro Football Weekly Preview 2015 listed Jonas Gray as NE's Offensive breakout player. FWIW, Blount walked out on his last team (Pitt) at halftime on MNF here in Nashville not too long after he got arrested for marijuana possession. BB forgave that so Blount could be his workhorse in the playoffs. If a guy like that could get 2nd and 3rd chances - it might not hurt to have Pettine give Gray a 2nd chance.
That whole Blount/Steeler thing stank to high heaven. Timing was way too convenient.
Maybe Gray does respond to the cut or maybe he replaces West in kind. But it would not cost much to check him out.
People forget so quickly. Farmer trading up and getting West in round 3 was universally accepted as a coup by the draft community.
As Higdon pointed out, it's insane they didn't know or care about his work ethic and personality problems considering they had a former Towson coach on their staff.
Concerning, Ray Ray
Different memory here, but beside the point...
Agree that the pattern of personality issues bringing down promising players' production is disturbing. However, they seem to be a product of the Class of 2014... JFF, Gilbert, Tate and now West. I'll be a great deal more concerned if the pattern continues beyond Farmer's rookie season.
Other that a couple of thoughtless tweets on the final cut choices, I'm not aware of any Class of '15 issues. Are there any?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Aside from the fractured leg, Bradshaw has chronically dealt with really bad feet. This has kept him from practicing and a full work load in the past. Even though he's a bad ass; we're probably only looking at a fraction of the player he was.
Jonas Gray intrigues me. Maybe BB/NE preferring an oft-troubled LeGarrette Blount gives this kid the kick in the dumpster he needs to giddyup and get after it. Pro Football Weekly Preview 2015 listed Jonas Gray as NE's Offensive breakout player. FWIW, Blount walked out on his last team (Pitt) at halftime on MNF here in Nashville not too long after he got arrested for marijuana possession. BB forgave that so Blount could be his workhorse in the playoffs. If a guy like that could get 2nd and 3rd chances - it might not hurt to have Pettine give Gray a 2nd chance.
That whole Blount/Steeler thing stank to high heaven. Timing was way too convenient.
Maybe Gray does respond to the cut or maybe he replaces West in kind. But it would not cost much to check him out.
People forget so quickly. Farmer trading up and getting West in round 3 was universally accepted as a coup by the draft community.
As Higdon pointed out, it's insane they didn't know or care about his work ethic and personality problems considering they had a former Towson coach on their staff.
Concerning, Ray Ray
Different memory here, but beside the point...
Agree that the pattern of personality issues bringing down promising players' production is disturbing. However, they seem to be a product of the Class of 2014... JFF, Gilbert, Tate and now West. I'll be a great deal more concerned if the pattern continues beyond Farmer's rookie season.
Other that a couple of thoughtless tweets on the final cut choices, I'm not aware of any Class of '15 issues. Are there any?
That whole Blount/Steeler thing stank to high heaven. Timing was way too convenient.
Maybe Gray does respond to the cut or maybe he replaces West in kind. But it would not cost much to check him out.
Different memory here, but beside the point...
Agree that the pattern of personality issues bringing down promising players' production is disturbing. However, they seem to be a product of the Class of 2014... JFF, Gilbert, Tate and now West. I'll be a great deal more concerned if the pattern continues beyond Farmer's rookie season.
Other that a couple of thoughtless tweets on the final cut choices, I'm not aware of any Class of '15 issues. Are there any?
Nope, this class seemed about as safe as safe can be. No off-field headlines, though not too many on-field headlines outside of Shelton. Basically heard nothing from anybody. The only possible candidate would be Mayle, who hasn't lived up to 4th round status, was cut and not even signed to the PS. Very slow recovering from his injury, didn't do much in preseason, maybe poor work ethic? Just hypotheticals here.
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This has Ray Rice written all over it ... not that I think it is a bad idea ... but the shit I gave Steeler fans for Vick ...
Zombo
Zombo said:
This has Ray Rice written all over it ... not that I think it is a bad idea ... but the shit I gave Steeler fans for Vick ...
Zombo
Well somebody's old lady can purposely piss him off, a dog can't.
WSS
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People forget so quickly. Farmer trading up and getting West in round 3 was universally accepted as a coup by the draft community.
As Higdon pointed out, it's insane they didn't know or care about his work ethic and personality problems considering they had a former Towson coach on their staff.
Concerning, Ray Ray
You are right on point. Everyone thought it was brilliant we jumped the Ravens to get him. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.People forget so quickly. Farmer trading up and getting West in round 3 was universally accepted as a coup by the draft community.
As Higdon pointed out, it's insane they didn't know or care about his work ethic and personality problems considering they had a former Towson coach on their staff.
Concerning, Ray Ray
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People forget so quickly. Farmer trading up and getting West in round 3 was universally accepted as a coup by the draft community.
As Higdon pointed out, it's insane they didn't know or care about his work ethic and personality problems considering they had a former Towson coach on their staff.
Concerning, Ray Ray
People forget so quickly. Farmer trading up and getting West in round 3 was universally accepted as a coup by the draft community.
As Higdon pointed out, it's insane they didn't know or care about his work ethic and personality problems considering they had a former Towson coach on their staff.
Concerning, Ray Ray
After inheriting a 4-12 train-wreck, I like the job Farmer has done from round 2 on through the undrafted guys like K'Wuan Williams, Taylor Gabriel, Bibbs, Isaiah Crowell. We spend a lot of time fussing about picks that don't work here especially round 1; but in doing so we tend to forget about the Brian Sipes, Ernest Byners, Tony T-Bone Jones that have popped up along the way here.
Joel Bitonio is a 2nd round draft pick giving us the exchange value of a 1st round Guard. To be honest, all this time we've been winging it at LG since Steinbach went under the knife - we've cancelled what Joe Thomas and Alex Mack could have meant to our running game since 2011 all the way until someone finally got it right. Meatball on spaghetti, our previous front office was looking at Center as a dime a dozen position. Our fan base learned how delicate that position was back when we lost LeCharles Bentley to IR at the beginning of the 2007 training camp. We auditioned something like 4 or 5 guys prior to trading for the pleasant surprise of the year (Hank Fraley) previously deemed as too old to start but capable of filling in. He came here and pulled from his Center position in spite of how old he was. He also made all the calls in an offense I'm guessing was new to him; and we went on to win 10 games. The previous dead legs of Jamal Lewis got revived into 1300 yards on the ground, which gave us the balance to allow a career backup QB like DA to throw 29 TD passes. There's more good mid-late round and undrafted guys here regardless of our 4th round misses. Nobody aces all their picks.
As for the behavior, character and/or work ethic thing - a lot of NFL front offices have egos that think they can change a Lawrence Phillips, Santonio Holmes, Aaron Hernandez, Josh Gordon, Pac Man Jones, Kenny Britt, Jeff George, LeGarrette Blount, Armonty Bryant, Alonzo Spellman, Bam Morris, Laverneus Coles, Randy Moss, Vontaze Burfict, Jameis Winston, etc. Sometimes it works - sometimes it doesn't. That isn't exclusive to Cleveland even if our examples are easier to remember.
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You are right on point. Everyone thought it was brilliant we jumped the Ravens to get him. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.People forget so quickly. Farmer trading up and getting West in round 3 was universally accepted as a coup by the draft community.
As Higdon pointed out, it's insane they didn't know or care about his work ethic and personality problems considering they had a former Towson coach on their staff.
Concerning, Ray Ray
You are right on point. Everyone thought it was brilliant we jumped the Ravens to get him.
Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastn-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs in 2013.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick. With an old school coach like Wilbert Montgomery lighting his fanny plus experience - I expect to see even more of Crowe's upside tapped in 2015.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
You are right on point. Everyone thought it was brilliant we jumped the Ravens to get him.
Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastn-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs in 2013.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick. With an old school coach like Wilbert Montgomery lighting his fanny plus experience - I expect to see even more of Crowe's upside tapped in 2015.
Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastand-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick.
I think you're right - basically, we spent a 3rd round pick and got an undrafted guy; we've ended up with a starter that lead the team in TDs and YPC in his rookie season and a guy we've offloaded for a low pick. It just happened the 'wrong' way round from expectations.
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Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastand-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick.
I think you're right - basically, we spent a 3rd round pick and got an undrafted guy; we've ended up with a starter that lead the team in TDs and YPC in his rookie season and a guy we've offloaded for a low pick. It just happened the 'wrong' way round from expectations.
I think you're right - basically, we spent a 3rd round pick and got an undrafted guy; we've ended up with a starter that lead the team in TDs and YPC in his rookie season and a guy we've offloaded for a low pick. It just happened the 'wrong' way round from expectations.
That's a good way of looking at it.
If Crowell had been the 3rd round pick, and West the UFA, no one would be bitching about it. -
I think you're right - basically, we spent a 3rd round pick and got an undrafted guy; we've ended up with a starter that lead the team in TDs and YPC in his rookie season and a guy we've offloaded for a low pick. It just happened the 'wrong' way round from expectations.
That's a good way of looking at it.
If Crowell had been the 3rd round pick, and West the UFA, no one would be bitching about it. If Crowell had been the 3rd round pick, and West the UFA, no one would be bitching about it. Oh so true.....
Add Gilbert(#9 ranked rookie CB) & K. Williams(#1 ranked rookie CB) to that list.......
flip em around and everyone would be estatic....even though we'd be in the exact same boat.....
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Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastand-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick.
I think you're right - basically, we spent a 3rd round pick and got an undrafted guy; we've ended up with a starter that lead the team in TDs and YPC in his rookie season and a guy we've offloaded for a low pick. It just happened the 'wrong' way round from expectations.
I think you're right - basically, we spent a 3rd round pick and got an undrafted guy; we've ended up with a starter that lead the team in TDs and YPC in his rookie season and a guy we've offloaded for a low pick. It just happened the 'wrong' way round from expectations.
Thanks! I kept typing round 4 instead of round 3 for some reason (but either way - it's a mid round in an era where there's a rookie salary cap on all first contracts blurring the difference of where we're getting talent we need).
At some point, it doesn't matter what round a Tashaun Gipson comes in as much as it matters how good he is. Even more so now that we drafted West in an era where there's a rookie salary cap keeping down down salaries of unproven players. All that matters is Crowe is a keeper while West is an "I before team" type of player. I'll bet on the guy with the heart to play like a Brown. How about replacing Phil Taylor inside with a better scheme fit (Danny Shelton)? And how about doing that at much more affordable first round contract? As I said a couple posts ago - this is only Farmer's 2nd offseason following the 4-12 nightmare of 2013.
When I look at a Justin Gilbert that can't tackle to save his life - I'm thankful Ray Farmer had an ability to find a guy like K'Wuan Williams that is willing to do all the little things that will add up over the course of a 60 minute game. On top of that, Ray was also willing to go get a Tramon Williams - plus bring in other young players that will compete for a roster spot and playing time at corner. I usually have rose colored glasses for players; but you can't fake or hide your inability to tackle. I want Gilbert show everyone he can prove his critics wrong; but if he doesn't - Farmer already deepened up that position to the extent it won't hurt us at all if he doesn't.
IMO, Ray's job is to work in tandem with the coaching staff philosophies/input on each side of the ball to find enough specific skill-sets and talented players that will improve our competitive barometer. 1 by 1, we're getting stronger fro the bottom of our roster to the top of it. And I think we gotta BINGO here.
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I think you're right - basically, we spent a 3rd round pick and got an undrafted guy; we've ended up with a starter that lead the team in TDs and YPC in his rookie season and a guy we've offloaded for a low pick. It just happened the 'wrong' way round from expectations.
Thanks! I kept typing round 4 instead of round 3 for some reason (but either way - it's a mid round in an era where there's a rookie salary cap on all first contracts blurring the difference of where we're getting talent we need).
At some point, it doesn't matter what round a Tashaun Gipson comes in as much as it matters how good he is. Even more so now that we drafted West in an era where there's a rookie salary cap keeping down down salaries of unproven players. All that matters is Crowe is a keeper while West is an "I before team" type of player. I'll bet on the guy with the heart to play like a Brown. How about replacing Phil Taylor inside with a better scheme fit (Danny Shelton)? And how about doing that at much more affordable first round contract? As I said a couple posts ago - this is only Farmer's 2nd offseason following the 4-12 nightmare of 2013.
When I look at a Justin Gilbert that can't tackle to save his life - I'm thankful Ray Farmer had an ability to find a guy like K'Wuan Williams that is willing to do all the little things that will add up over the course of a 60 minute game. On top of that, Ray was also willing to go get a Tramon Williams - plus bring in other young players that will compete for a roster spot and playing time at corner. I usually have rose colored glasses for players; but you can't fake or hide your inability to tackle. I want Gilbert show everyone he can prove his critics wrong; but if he doesn't - Farmer already deepened up that position to the extent it won't hurt us at all if he doesn't.
IMO, Ray's job is to work in tandem with the coaching staff philosophies/input on each side of the ball to find enough specific skill-sets and talented players that will improve our competitive barometer. 1 by 1, we're getting stronger fro the bottom of our roster to the top of it. And I think we gotta BINGO here.
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You are right on point. Everyone thought it was brilliant we jumped the Ravens to get him.
Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastn-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs in 2013.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick. With an old school coach like Wilbert Montgomery lighting his fanny plus experience - I expect to see even more of Crowe's upside tapped in 2015.
Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastn-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs in 2013.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick. With an old school coach like Wilbert Montgomery lighting his fanny plus experience - I expect to see even more of Crowe's upside tapped in 2015.
I am not going to spend a lot of time defining "everyone". The move up for West was considered by a lot of "experts" and much discussion online as well as a great move. That has nothing to do with Crowell. I agree , there were a lot of positive comments on that move as well. If you want to critique me however why not address the most critical part of my post which I will reiterate. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.
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Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastn-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs in 2013.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick. With an old school coach like Wilbert Montgomery lighting his fanny plus experience - I expect to see even more of Crowe's upside tapped in 2015.
I am not going to spend a lot of time defining "everyone". The move up for West was considered by a lot of "experts" and much discussion online as well as a great move. That has nothing to do with Crowell. I agree , there were a lot of positive comments on that move as well. If you want to critique me however why not address the most critical part of my post which I will reiterate. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.
If you want to critique me however why not address the most critical part of my post which I will reiterate. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.
It's hard to argue with your criticism because it appears to be spot on, for whatever reason. Missing on top round picks, but finding a few gems in UDFA has so far turned our drafts into a wash - however, if it continues, someone will have to be held accountable.
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I'd expect Day three and UDFA rookies to be hungrier.
Also have to remember that Crow had issues at Georgia... well publicized ones.
The quiet 2015 so far makes me think ferreting out any issues was a 2014 problem. Hopefully a one-and-done problem that was a product of a new, first-time GM who was building a staff as he was building a team.
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Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastn-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs in 2013.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick. With an old school coach like Wilbert Montgomery lighting his fanny plus experience - I expect to see even more of Crowe's upside tapped in 2015.
I am not going to spend a lot of time defining "everyone". The move up for West was considered by a lot of "experts" and much discussion online as well as a great move. That has nothing to do with Crowell. I agree , there were a lot of positive comments on that move as well. If you want to critique me however why not address the most critical part of my post which I will reiterate. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.
I am not going to spend a lot of time defining "everyone". The move up for West was considered by a lot of "experts" and much discussion online as well as a great move. That has nothing to do with Crowell. I agree , there were a lot of positive comments on that move as well. If you want to critique me however why not address the most critical part of my post which I will reiterate. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.
The reason I asked who's everybody because it looked like you were insulting a lot of people in here. Therefore I appreciated you clarifying who you were talking about. Thank you.
I'm not trying to win or lose an argument with you. I'm trying to give you an angle you can feel better about as a fan than your concerns about incompetence or egotistical from the GM/Scouting Dept you mentioned above.
Believe it or not, I agree it sucked to learn a small school guy like West is a bad apple heading for a short career. However, neither one of us was at West's interviews as a small school prospect trying to impress an NFL GM considering taking him as high as the 3rd round of an NFL draft. People lie in interviews all the time so this doesn't look any different. I read a lot of mixed reviews about West pre-draft ranging from scouts that were impressed to ones that weren't. FWIW, small school programs love people seeing a player drafted from their program in terms of what it means for recruiting future players there - so who really knows what kind of info was shared or with-held about his work ethic. Irregardless, I don't think missing on West is unforgivable or sets us back.
Again, Farmer's job was to upgrade the running game starting with drafting Joel Bitonio in round 2 - who played like a solid first round draft pick. 2014 was the first time we were able to run between 2 Pro Bowl Linemen like Joe Thomas and Alex Mack since Steinbach went under the knife before the 2011 season. When you can't run inside of tackle on either side of Center - you start every play handcuffed so that was HUGE. Even better, Greco moved to the right side and played the best football of his career.
The other way to try to improve the running game was to draft a RB (which we did with West) and add a UFA like Crowe. Midway through the season, Crowe was averaging over 5 yards a carry while West was learning not to dance so much as he improved his ypc. He had to put forth some work to improve as the season unfolded even though he doesn't plan on doing all the little things that will keep him employed from here on out. Even Ben Tate had a 124 yard rushing performance vrs TN mixed in when we overcame a 28-3 deficit at TN.
I don't think you can go from 4-12 football in 2013 to overcoming a significant injury volume here in 2014 with a 7-4 start if the scouting dept isn't up to snuff. That doesn't add up to playing like a Brown. Adding Bitonio, Crowe and West improved our running game quite a bit last year. The good news is there was already a plan to draft a RB in 2015 who could add a dimension to our passing game and offer us a change of pace. West has already fooled another NFL franchise if they expect him to protect Mariota from blitzing LBers on occasion. I think any teams that were interested in West had the thought process/stereotype of a small school guy willing to work hard to prove he belongs in this league. For instance, If we jumped up ahead of Ozzie to draft him - what would make Ozzie so dumb and gullable to be intrigued by him? Maybe the people at Towson State weren't all that upfront or they miscalculated how he could handle some degree of success. Who knows? I'm just glad he's not our problem.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
I am not going to spend a lot of time defining "everyone". The move up for West was considered by a lot of "experts" and much discussion online as well as a great move. That has nothing to do with Crowell. I agree , there were a lot of positive comments on that move as well. If you want to critique me however why not address the most critical part of my post which I will reiterate. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.
The reason I asked who's everybody because it looked like you were insulting a lot of people in here. Therefore I appreciated you clarifying who you were talking about. Thank you.
I'm not trying to win or lose an argument with you. I'm trying to give you an angle you can feel better about as a fan than your concerns about incompetence or egotistical from the GM/Scouting Dept you mentioned above.
Believe it or not, I agree it sucked to learn a small school guy like West is a bad apple heading for a short career. However, neither one of us was at West's interviews as a small school prospect trying to impress an NFL GM considering taking him as high as the 3rd round of an NFL draft. People lie in interviews all the time so this doesn't look any different. I read a lot of mixed reviews about West pre-draft ranging from scouts that were impressed to ones that weren't. FWIW, small school programs love people seeing a player drafted from their program in terms of what it means for recruiting future players there - so who really knows what kind of info was shared or with-held about his work ethic. Irregardless, I don't think missing on West is unforgivable or sets us back.
Again, Farmer's job was to upgrade the running game starting with drafting Joel Bitonio in round 2 - who played like a solid first round draft pick. 2014 was the first time we were able to run between 2 Pro Bowl Linemen like Joe Thomas and Alex Mack since Steinbach went under the knife before the 2011 season. When you can't run inside of tackle on either side of Center - you start every play handcuffed so that was HUGE. Even better, Greco moved to the right side and played the best football of his career.
The other way to try to improve the running game was to draft a RB (which we did with West) and add a UFA like Crowe. Midway through the season, Crowe was averaging over 5 yards a carry while West was learning not to dance so much as he improved his ypc. He had to put forth some work to improve as the season unfolded even though he doesn't plan on doing all the little things that will keep him employed from here on out. Even Ben Tate had a 124 yard rushing performance vrs TN mixed in when we overcame a 28-3 deficit at TN.
I don't think you can go from 4-12 football in 2013 to overcoming a significant injury volume here in 2014 with a 7-4 start if the scouting dept isn't up to snuff. That doesn't add up to playing like a Brown. Adding Bitonio, Crowe and West improved our running game quite a bit last year. The good news is there was already a plan to draft a RB in 2015 who could add a dimension to our passing game and offer us a change of pace. West has already fooled another NFL franchise if they expect him to protect Mariota from blitzing LBers on occasion. I think any teams that were interested in West had the thought process/stereotype of a small school guy willing to work hard to prove he belongs in this league. For instance, If we jumped up ahead of Ozzie to draft him - what would make Ozzie so dumb and gullable to be intrigued by him? Maybe the people at Towson State weren't all that upfront or they miscalculated how he could handle some degree of success. Who knows? I'm just glad he's not our problem.
The reason I asked who's everybody because it looked like you were insulting a lot of people in here. Therefore I appreciated you clarifying who you were talking about. Thank you.
I'm not trying to win or lose an argument with you. I'm trying to give you an angle you can feel better about as a fan than your concerns about incompetence or egotistical from the GM/Scouting Dept you mentioned above.
Believe it or not, I agree it sucked to learn a small school guy like West is a bad apple heading for a short career. However, neither one of us was at West's interviews as a small school prospect trying to impress an NFL GM considering taking him as high as the 3rd round of an NFL draft. People lie in interviews all the time so this doesn't look any different. I read a lot of mixed reviews about West pre-draft ranging from scouts that were impressed to ones that weren't. FWIW, small school programs love people seeing a player drafted from their program in terms of what it means for recruiting future players there - so who really knows what kind of info was shared or with-held about his work ethic. Irregardless, I don't think missing on West is unforgivable or sets us back.
Again, Farmer's job was to upgrade the running game starting with drafting Joel Bitonio in round 2 - who played like a solid first round draft pick. 2014 was the first time we were able to run between 2 Pro Bowl Linemen like Joe Thomas and Alex Mack since Steinbach went under the knife before the 2011 season. When you can't run inside of tackle on either side of Center - you start every play handcuffed so that was HUGE. Even better, Greco moved to the right side and played the best football of his career.
The other way to try to improve the running game was to draft a RB (which we did with West) and add a UFA like Crowe. Midway through the season, Crowe was averaging over 5 yards a carry while West was learning not to dance so much as he improved his ypc. He had to put forth some work to improve as the season unfolded even though he doesn't plan on doing all the little things that will keep him employed from here on out. Even Ben Tate had a 124 yard rushing performance vrs TN mixed in when we overcame a 28-3 deficit at TN.
I don't think you can go from 4-12 football in 2013 to overcoming a significant injury volume here in 2014 with a 7-4 start if the scouting dept isn't up to snuff. That doesn't add up to playing like a Brown. Adding Bitonio, Crowe and West improved our running game quite a bit last year. The good news is there was already a plan to draft a RB in 2015 who could add a dimension to our passing game and offer us a change of pace. West has already fooled another NFL franchise if they expect him to protect Mariota from blitzing LBers on occasion. I think any teams that were interested in West had the thought process/stereotype of a small school guy willing to work hard to prove he belongs in this league. For instance, If we jumped up ahead of Ozzie to draft him - what would make Ozzie so dumb and gullable to be intrigued by him? Maybe the people at Towson State weren't all that upfront or they miscalculated how he could handle some degree of success. Who knows? I'm just glad he's not our problem.
Point taken and good, well thought out post.
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I am not going to spend a lot of time defining "everyone". The move up for West was considered by a lot of "experts" and much discussion online as well as a great move. That has nothing to do with Crowell. I agree , there were a lot of positive comments on that move as well. If you want to critique me however why not address the most critical part of my post which I will reiterate. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.
The reason I asked who's everybody because it looked like you were insulting a lot of people in here. Therefore I appreciated you clarifying who you were talking about. Thank you.
I'm not trying to win or lose an argument with you. I'm trying to give you an angle you can feel better about as a fan than your concerns about incompetence or egotistical from the GM/Scouting Dept you mentioned above.
Believe it or not, I agree it sucked to learn a small school guy like West is a bad apple heading for a short career. However, neither one of us was at West's interviews as a small school prospect trying to impress an NFL GM considering taking him as high as the 3rd round of an NFL draft. People lie in interviews all the time so this doesn't look any different. I read a lot of mixed reviews about West pre-draft ranging from scouts that were impressed to ones that weren't. FWIW, small school programs love people seeing a player drafted from their program in terms of what it means for recruiting future players there - so who really knows what kind of info was shared or with-held about his work ethic. Irregardless, I don't think missing on West is unforgivable or sets us back.
Again, Farmer's job was to upgrade the running game starting with drafting Joel Bitonio in round 2 - who played like a solid first round draft pick. 2014 was the first time we were able to run between 2 Pro Bowl Linemen like Joe Thomas and Alex Mack since Steinbach went under the knife before the 2011 season. When you can't run inside of tackle on either side of Center - you start every play handcuffed so that was HUGE. Even better, Greco moved to the right side and played the best football of his career.
The other way to try to improve the running game was to draft a RB (which we did with West) and add a UFA like Crowe. Midway through the season, Crowe was averaging over 5 yards a carry while West was learning not to dance so much as he improved his ypc. He had to put forth some work to improve as the season unfolded even though he doesn't plan on doing all the little things that will keep him employed from here on out. Even Ben Tate had a 124 yard rushing performance vrs TN mixed in when we overcame a 28-3 deficit at TN.
I don't think you can go from 4-12 football in 2013 to overcoming a significant injury volume here in 2014 with a 7-4 start if the scouting dept isn't up to snuff. That doesn't add up to playing like a Brown. Adding Bitonio, Crowe and West improved our running game quite a bit last year. The good news is there was already a plan to draft a RB in 2015 who could add a dimension to our passing game and offer us a change of pace. West has already fooled another NFL franchise if they expect him to protect Mariota from blitzing LBers on occasion. I think any teams that were interested in West had the thought process/stereotype of a small school guy willing to work hard to prove he belongs in this league. For instance, If we jumped up ahead of Ozzie to draft him - what would make Ozzie so dumb and gullable to be intrigued by him? Maybe the people at Towson State weren't all that upfront or they miscalculated how he could handle some degree of success. Who knows? I'm just glad he's not our problem.
Again, Farmer's job was to upgrade
Good post Fluges......
Bottom line.....Farmer is supposed to improve our talent anyway he can.....
Last season we were weak in the defensive backfield and he brought in Gilbert, Kwaun Williams, Donte Whitner and Pierre Desir....and created one of the best(if not THE best group in the league)....yet, hes considered an ass because of Gilbert?
And we had NO running backs(none, zip, zilch, nada)....and he brought in Tate, West and Crowell(as well as the Duke).....yet, he's an ass because of West?....
And then in 2014 our D line struggled, so Farmer goes and gets Starks, Meder, Cooper and Shelton......but, for some reason, there are some who think he should be fired because Mayle didnt work out or West was cut or something.....???
So, in 2 years, he has completely revamped our DB's, our DL and seriously upgraded our talent at WR, RB, LB(Dansby, Orchard) & OL(Bito, Erving) etc....and, Id say, while most position groups are vastly improved, not one single position has gotten worse
All I see is a guy attacking the problems by drafting, signing UDFA's and UFA's....anything....to bring in the necessary people to build the team......and, apparently, he's smart enough to know that they dont always come via the first round.....
A lot of teams just draft "a" player and place the burden on him to perform, while I see the Farmer bringing in multiples and forcing them to compete and earn their jobs....I think I prefer his method over 'draft and pray'......
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Again, Farmer's job was to upgrade
Good post Fluges......
Bottom line.....Farmer is supposed to improve our talent anyway he can.....
Last season we were weak in the defensive backfield and he brought in Gilbert, Kwaun Williams, Donte Whitner and Pierre Desir....and created one of the best(if not THE best group in the league)....yet, hes considered an ass because of Gilbert?
And we had NO running backs(none, zip, zilch, nada)....and he brought in Tate, West and Crowell(as well as the Duke).....yet, he's an ass because of West?....
And then in 2014 our D line struggled, so Farmer goes and gets Starks, Meder, Cooper and Shelton......but, for some reason, there are some who think he should be fired because Mayle didnt work out or West was cut or something.....???
So, in 2 years, he has completely revamped our DB's, our DL and seriously upgraded our talent at WR, RB, LB(Dansby, Orchard) & OL(Bito, Erving) etc....and, Id say, while most position groups are vastly improved, not one single position has gotten worse
All I see is a guy attacking the problems by drafting, signing UDFA's and UFA's....anything....to bring in the necessary people to build the team......and, apparently, he's smart enough to know that they dont always come via the first round.....
A lot of teams just draft "a" player and place the burden on him to perform, while I see the Farmer bringing in multiples and forcing them to compete and earn their jobs....I think I prefer his method over 'draft and pray'......
All I see is a guy attacking the problems by drafting, signing UDFA's and UFA's....anything....to bring in the necessary people to build the team......and, apparently, he's smart enough to know that they dont always come via the first round.....
The common source of the recruiting failures has been an issue for concern, but hopefully in the past.
Just got a little uncomfortable with your "attacking the problems" phrase. Transition from that kind of "firefighting" mode to controlled foresight has to be the Organization's next challenge, otherwise we end up in a state of perpetual whack-a-mole.
Attack the 2ndary... surprise the D-line is a problem.
Attack the D-line...
surprise your RB stable is nearly empty...
your O-line is only 6 deep...
your TEs are stacked 4-deep... with average talent.
... and then there's the QB situation...
Damn... I'm depressing myself....
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
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