West to Tennessee
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Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastand-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick.
I think you're right - basically, we spent a 3rd round pick and got an undrafted guy; we've ended up with a starter that lead the team in TDs and YPC in his rookie season and a guy we've offloaded for a low pick. It just happened the 'wrong' way round from expectations.
I think you're right - basically, we spent a 3rd round pick and got an undrafted guy; we've ended up with a starter that lead the team in TDs and YPC in his rookie season and a guy we've offloaded for a low pick. It just happened the 'wrong' way round from expectations.
That's a good way of looking at it.
If Crowell had been the 3rd round pick, and West the UFA, no one would be bitching about it. -
I think you're right - basically, we spent a 3rd round pick and got an undrafted guy; we've ended up with a starter that lead the team in TDs and YPC in his rookie season and a guy we've offloaded for a low pick. It just happened the 'wrong' way round from expectations.
That's a good way of looking at it.
If Crowell had been the 3rd round pick, and West the UFA, no one would be bitching about it. If Crowell had been the 3rd round pick, and West the UFA, no one would be bitching about it. Oh so true.....
Add Gilbert(#9 ranked rookie CB) & K. Williams(#1 ranked rookie CB) to that list.......
flip em around and everyone would be estatic....even though we'd be in the exact same boat.....
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Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastand-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick.
I think you're right - basically, we spent a 3rd round pick and got an undrafted guy; we've ended up with a starter that lead the team in TDs and YPC in his rookie season and a guy we've offloaded for a low pick. It just happened the 'wrong' way round from expectations.
I think you're right - basically, we spent a 3rd round pick and got an undrafted guy; we've ended up with a starter that lead the team in TDs and YPC in his rookie season and a guy we've offloaded for a low pick. It just happened the 'wrong' way round from expectations.
Thanks! I kept typing round 4 instead of round 3 for some reason (but either way - it's a mid round in an era where there's a rookie salary cap on all first contracts blurring the difference of where we're getting talent we need).
At some point, it doesn't matter what round a Tashaun Gipson comes in as much as it matters how good he is. Even more so now that we drafted West in an era where there's a rookie salary cap keeping down down salaries of unproven players. All that matters is Crowe is a keeper while West is an "I before team" type of player. I'll bet on the guy with the heart to play like a Brown. How about replacing Phil Taylor inside with a better scheme fit (Danny Shelton)? And how about doing that at much more affordable first round contract? As I said a couple posts ago - this is only Farmer's 2nd offseason following the 4-12 nightmare of 2013.
When I look at a Justin Gilbert that can't tackle to save his life - I'm thankful Ray Farmer had an ability to find a guy like K'Wuan Williams that is willing to do all the little things that will add up over the course of a 60 minute game. On top of that, Ray was also willing to go get a Tramon Williams - plus bring in other young players that will compete for a roster spot and playing time at corner. I usually have rose colored glasses for players; but you can't fake or hide your inability to tackle. I want Gilbert show everyone he can prove his critics wrong; but if he doesn't - Farmer already deepened up that position to the extent it won't hurt us at all if he doesn't.
IMO, Ray's job is to work in tandem with the coaching staff philosophies/input on each side of the ball to find enough specific skill-sets and talented players that will improve our competitive barometer. 1 by 1, we're getting stronger fro the bottom of our roster to the top of it. And I think we gotta BINGO here.
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I think you're right - basically, we spent a 3rd round pick and got an undrafted guy; we've ended up with a starter that lead the team in TDs and YPC in his rookie season and a guy we've offloaded for a low pick. It just happened the 'wrong' way round from expectations.
Thanks! I kept typing round 4 instead of round 3 for some reason (but either way - it's a mid round in an era where there's a rookie salary cap on all first contracts blurring the difference of where we're getting talent we need).
At some point, it doesn't matter what round a Tashaun Gipson comes in as much as it matters how good he is. Even more so now that we drafted West in an era where there's a rookie salary cap keeping down down salaries of unproven players. All that matters is Crowe is a keeper while West is an "I before team" type of player. I'll bet on the guy with the heart to play like a Brown. How about replacing Phil Taylor inside with a better scheme fit (Danny Shelton)? And how about doing that at much more affordable first round contract? As I said a couple posts ago - this is only Farmer's 2nd offseason following the 4-12 nightmare of 2013.
When I look at a Justin Gilbert that can't tackle to save his life - I'm thankful Ray Farmer had an ability to find a guy like K'Wuan Williams that is willing to do all the little things that will add up over the course of a 60 minute game. On top of that, Ray was also willing to go get a Tramon Williams - plus bring in other young players that will compete for a roster spot and playing time at corner. I usually have rose colored glasses for players; but you can't fake or hide your inability to tackle. I want Gilbert show everyone he can prove his critics wrong; but if he doesn't - Farmer already deepened up that position to the extent it won't hurt us at all if he doesn't.
IMO, Ray's job is to work in tandem with the coaching staff philosophies/input on each side of the ball to find enough specific skill-sets and talented players that will improve our competitive barometer. 1 by 1, we're getting stronger fro the bottom of our roster to the top of it. And I think we gotta BINGO here.
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You are right on point. Everyone thought it was brilliant we jumped the Ravens to get him.
Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastn-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs in 2013.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick. With an old school coach like Wilbert Montgomery lighting his fanny plus experience - I expect to see even more of Crowe's upside tapped in 2015.
Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastn-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs in 2013.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick. With an old school coach like Wilbert Montgomery lighting his fanny plus experience - I expect to see even more of Crowe's upside tapped in 2015.
I am not going to spend a lot of time defining "everyone". The move up for West was considered by a lot of "experts" and much discussion online as well as a great move. That has nothing to do with Crowell. I agree , there were a lot of positive comments on that move as well. If you want to critique me however why not address the most critical part of my post which I will reiterate. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.
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Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastn-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs in 2013.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick. With an old school coach like Wilbert Montgomery lighting his fanny plus experience - I expect to see even more of Crowe's upside tapped in 2015.
I am not going to spend a lot of time defining "everyone". The move up for West was considered by a lot of "experts" and much discussion online as well as a great move. That has nothing to do with Crowell. I agree , there were a lot of positive comments on that move as well. If you want to critique me however why not address the most critical part of my post which I will reiterate. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.
If you want to critique me however why not address the most critical part of my post which I will reiterate. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.
It's hard to argue with your criticism because it appears to be spot on, for whatever reason. Missing on top round picks, but finding a few gems in UDFA has so far turned our drafts into a wash - however, if it continues, someone will have to be held accountable.
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I'd expect Day three and UDFA rookies to be hungrier.
Also have to remember that Crow had issues at Georgia... well publicized ones.
The quiet 2015 so far makes me think ferreting out any issues was a 2014 problem. Hopefully a one-and-done problem that was a product of a new, first-time GM who was building a staff as he was building a team.
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Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastn-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs in 2013.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick. With an old school coach like Wilbert Montgomery lighting his fanny plus experience - I expect to see even more of Crowe's upside tapped in 2015.
I am not going to spend a lot of time defining "everyone". The move up for West was considered by a lot of "experts" and much discussion online as well as a great move. That has nothing to do with Crowell. I agree , there were a lot of positive comments on that move as well. If you want to critique me however why not address the most critical part of my post which I will reiterate. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.
I am not going to spend a lot of time defining "everyone". The move up for West was considered by a lot of "experts" and much discussion online as well as a great move. That has nothing to do with Crowell. I agree , there were a lot of positive comments on that move as well. If you want to critique me however why not address the most critical part of my post which I will reiterate. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.
The reason I asked who's everybody because it looked like you were insulting a lot of people in here. Therefore I appreciated you clarifying who you were talking about. Thank you.
I'm not trying to win or lose an argument with you. I'm trying to give you an angle you can feel better about as a fan than your concerns about incompetence or egotistical from the GM/Scouting Dept you mentioned above.
Believe it or not, I agree it sucked to learn a small school guy like West is a bad apple heading for a short career. However, neither one of us was at West's interviews as a small school prospect trying to impress an NFL GM considering taking him as high as the 3rd round of an NFL draft. People lie in interviews all the time so this doesn't look any different. I read a lot of mixed reviews about West pre-draft ranging from scouts that were impressed to ones that weren't. FWIW, small school programs love people seeing a player drafted from their program in terms of what it means for recruiting future players there - so who really knows what kind of info was shared or with-held about his work ethic. Irregardless, I don't think missing on West is unforgivable or sets us back.
Again, Farmer's job was to upgrade the running game starting with drafting Joel Bitonio in round 2 - who played like a solid first round draft pick. 2014 was the first time we were able to run between 2 Pro Bowl Linemen like Joe Thomas and Alex Mack since Steinbach went under the knife before the 2011 season. When you can't run inside of tackle on either side of Center - you start every play handcuffed so that was HUGE. Even better, Greco moved to the right side and played the best football of his career.
The other way to try to improve the running game was to draft a RB (which we did with West) and add a UFA like Crowe. Midway through the season, Crowe was averaging over 5 yards a carry while West was learning not to dance so much as he improved his ypc. He had to put forth some work to improve as the season unfolded even though he doesn't plan on doing all the little things that will keep him employed from here on out. Even Ben Tate had a 124 yard rushing performance vrs TN mixed in when we overcame a 28-3 deficit at TN.
I don't think you can go from 4-12 football in 2013 to overcoming a significant injury volume here in 2014 with a 7-4 start if the scouting dept isn't up to snuff. That doesn't add up to playing like a Brown. Adding Bitonio, Crowe and West improved our running game quite a bit last year. The good news is there was already a plan to draft a RB in 2015 who could add a dimension to our passing game and offer us a change of pace. West has already fooled another NFL franchise if they expect him to protect Mariota from blitzing LBers on occasion. I think any teams that were interested in West had the thought process/stereotype of a small school guy willing to work hard to prove he belongs in this league. For instance, If we jumped up ahead of Ozzie to draft him - what would make Ozzie so dumb and gullable to be intrigued by him? Maybe the people at Towson State weren't all that upfront or they miscalculated how he could handle some degree of success. Who knows? I'm just glad he's not our problem.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
I am not going to spend a lot of time defining "everyone". The move up for West was considered by a lot of "experts" and much discussion online as well as a great move. That has nothing to do with Crowell. I agree , there were a lot of positive comments on that move as well. If you want to critique me however why not address the most critical part of my post which I will reiterate. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.
The reason I asked who's everybody because it looked like you were insulting a lot of people in here. Therefore I appreciated you clarifying who you were talking about. Thank you.
I'm not trying to win or lose an argument with you. I'm trying to give you an angle you can feel better about as a fan than your concerns about incompetence or egotistical from the GM/Scouting Dept you mentioned above.
Believe it or not, I agree it sucked to learn a small school guy like West is a bad apple heading for a short career. However, neither one of us was at West's interviews as a small school prospect trying to impress an NFL GM considering taking him as high as the 3rd round of an NFL draft. People lie in interviews all the time so this doesn't look any different. I read a lot of mixed reviews about West pre-draft ranging from scouts that were impressed to ones that weren't. FWIW, small school programs love people seeing a player drafted from their program in terms of what it means for recruiting future players there - so who really knows what kind of info was shared or with-held about his work ethic. Irregardless, I don't think missing on West is unforgivable or sets us back.
Again, Farmer's job was to upgrade the running game starting with drafting Joel Bitonio in round 2 - who played like a solid first round draft pick. 2014 was the first time we were able to run between 2 Pro Bowl Linemen like Joe Thomas and Alex Mack since Steinbach went under the knife before the 2011 season. When you can't run inside of tackle on either side of Center - you start every play handcuffed so that was HUGE. Even better, Greco moved to the right side and played the best football of his career.
The other way to try to improve the running game was to draft a RB (which we did with West) and add a UFA like Crowe. Midway through the season, Crowe was averaging over 5 yards a carry while West was learning not to dance so much as he improved his ypc. He had to put forth some work to improve as the season unfolded even though he doesn't plan on doing all the little things that will keep him employed from here on out. Even Ben Tate had a 124 yard rushing performance vrs TN mixed in when we overcame a 28-3 deficit at TN.
I don't think you can go from 4-12 football in 2013 to overcoming a significant injury volume here in 2014 with a 7-4 start if the scouting dept isn't up to snuff. That doesn't add up to playing like a Brown. Adding Bitonio, Crowe and West improved our running game quite a bit last year. The good news is there was already a plan to draft a RB in 2015 who could add a dimension to our passing game and offer us a change of pace. West has already fooled another NFL franchise if they expect him to protect Mariota from blitzing LBers on occasion. I think any teams that were interested in West had the thought process/stereotype of a small school guy willing to work hard to prove he belongs in this league. For instance, If we jumped up ahead of Ozzie to draft him - what would make Ozzie so dumb and gullable to be intrigued by him? Maybe the people at Towson State weren't all that upfront or they miscalculated how he could handle some degree of success. Who knows? I'm just glad he's not our problem.
The reason I asked who's everybody because it looked like you were insulting a lot of people in here. Therefore I appreciated you clarifying who you were talking about. Thank you.
I'm not trying to win or lose an argument with you. I'm trying to give you an angle you can feel better about as a fan than your concerns about incompetence or egotistical from the GM/Scouting Dept you mentioned above.
Believe it or not, I agree it sucked to learn a small school guy like West is a bad apple heading for a short career. However, neither one of us was at West's interviews as a small school prospect trying to impress an NFL GM considering taking him as high as the 3rd round of an NFL draft. People lie in interviews all the time so this doesn't look any different. I read a lot of mixed reviews about West pre-draft ranging from scouts that were impressed to ones that weren't. FWIW, small school programs love people seeing a player drafted from their program in terms of what it means for recruiting future players there - so who really knows what kind of info was shared or with-held about his work ethic. Irregardless, I don't think missing on West is unforgivable or sets us back.
Again, Farmer's job was to upgrade the running game starting with drafting Joel Bitonio in round 2 - who played like a solid first round draft pick. 2014 was the first time we were able to run between 2 Pro Bowl Linemen like Joe Thomas and Alex Mack since Steinbach went under the knife before the 2011 season. When you can't run inside of tackle on either side of Center - you start every play handcuffed so that was HUGE. Even better, Greco moved to the right side and played the best football of his career.
The other way to try to improve the running game was to draft a RB (which we did with West) and add a UFA like Crowe. Midway through the season, Crowe was averaging over 5 yards a carry while West was learning not to dance so much as he improved his ypc. He had to put forth some work to improve as the season unfolded even though he doesn't plan on doing all the little things that will keep him employed from here on out. Even Ben Tate had a 124 yard rushing performance vrs TN mixed in when we overcame a 28-3 deficit at TN.
I don't think you can go from 4-12 football in 2013 to overcoming a significant injury volume here in 2014 with a 7-4 start if the scouting dept isn't up to snuff. That doesn't add up to playing like a Brown. Adding Bitonio, Crowe and West improved our running game quite a bit last year. The good news is there was already a plan to draft a RB in 2015 who could add a dimension to our passing game and offer us a change of pace. West has already fooled another NFL franchise if they expect him to protect Mariota from blitzing LBers on occasion. I think any teams that were interested in West had the thought process/stereotype of a small school guy willing to work hard to prove he belongs in this league. For instance, If we jumped up ahead of Ozzie to draft him - what would make Ozzie so dumb and gullable to be intrigued by him? Maybe the people at Towson State weren't all that upfront or they miscalculated how he could handle some degree of success. Who knows? I'm just glad he's not our problem.
Point taken and good, well thought out post.
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I am not going to spend a lot of time defining "everyone". The move up for West was considered by a lot of "experts" and much discussion online as well as a great move. That has nothing to do with Crowell. I agree , there were a lot of positive comments on that move as well. If you want to critique me however why not address the most critical part of my post which I will reiterate. The scouting staff / GM missing work ethic issues , physical issues and other red flags is mind boggling. Either they are so incompetent they miss them or so egotistical they believe they can fix them.
The reason I asked who's everybody because it looked like you were insulting a lot of people in here. Therefore I appreciated you clarifying who you were talking about. Thank you.
I'm not trying to win or lose an argument with you. I'm trying to give you an angle you can feel better about as a fan than your concerns about incompetence or egotistical from the GM/Scouting Dept you mentioned above.
Believe it or not, I agree it sucked to learn a small school guy like West is a bad apple heading for a short career. However, neither one of us was at West's interviews as a small school prospect trying to impress an NFL GM considering taking him as high as the 3rd round of an NFL draft. People lie in interviews all the time so this doesn't look any different. I read a lot of mixed reviews about West pre-draft ranging from scouts that were impressed to ones that weren't. FWIW, small school programs love people seeing a player drafted from their program in terms of what it means for recruiting future players there - so who really knows what kind of info was shared or with-held about his work ethic. Irregardless, I don't think missing on West is unforgivable or sets us back.
Again, Farmer's job was to upgrade the running game starting with drafting Joel Bitonio in round 2 - who played like a solid first round draft pick. 2014 was the first time we were able to run between 2 Pro Bowl Linemen like Joe Thomas and Alex Mack since Steinbach went under the knife before the 2011 season. When you can't run inside of tackle on either side of Center - you start every play handcuffed so that was HUGE. Even better, Greco moved to the right side and played the best football of his career.
The other way to try to improve the running game was to draft a RB (which we did with West) and add a UFA like Crowe. Midway through the season, Crowe was averaging over 5 yards a carry while West was learning not to dance so much as he improved his ypc. He had to put forth some work to improve as the season unfolded even though he doesn't plan on doing all the little things that will keep him employed from here on out. Even Ben Tate had a 124 yard rushing performance vrs TN mixed in when we overcame a 28-3 deficit at TN.
I don't think you can go from 4-12 football in 2013 to overcoming a significant injury volume here in 2014 with a 7-4 start if the scouting dept isn't up to snuff. That doesn't add up to playing like a Brown. Adding Bitonio, Crowe and West improved our running game quite a bit last year. The good news is there was already a plan to draft a RB in 2015 who could add a dimension to our passing game and offer us a change of pace. West has already fooled another NFL franchise if they expect him to protect Mariota from blitzing LBers on occasion. I think any teams that were interested in West had the thought process/stereotype of a small school guy willing to work hard to prove he belongs in this league. For instance, If we jumped up ahead of Ozzie to draft him - what would make Ozzie so dumb and gullable to be intrigued by him? Maybe the people at Towson State weren't all that upfront or they miscalculated how he could handle some degree of success. Who knows? I'm just glad he's not our problem.
Again, Farmer's job was to upgrade
Good post Fluges......
Bottom line.....Farmer is supposed to improve our talent anyway he can.....
Last season we were weak in the defensive backfield and he brought in Gilbert, Kwaun Williams, Donte Whitner and Pierre Desir....and created one of the best(if not THE best group in the league)....yet, hes considered an ass because of Gilbert?
And we had NO running backs(none, zip, zilch, nada)....and he brought in Tate, West and Crowell(as well as the Duke).....yet, he's an ass because of West?....
And then in 2014 our D line struggled, so Farmer goes and gets Starks, Meder, Cooper and Shelton......but, for some reason, there are some who think he should be fired because Mayle didnt work out or West was cut or something.....???
So, in 2 years, he has completely revamped our DB's, our DL and seriously upgraded our talent at WR, RB, LB(Dansby, Orchard) & OL(Bito, Erving) etc....and, Id say, while most position groups are vastly improved, not one single position has gotten worse
All I see is a guy attacking the problems by drafting, signing UDFA's and UFA's....anything....to bring in the necessary people to build the team......and, apparently, he's smart enough to know that they dont always come via the first round.....
A lot of teams just draft "a" player and place the burden on him to perform, while I see the Farmer bringing in multiples and forcing them to compete and earn their jobs....I think I prefer his method over 'draft and pray'......
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Again, Farmer's job was to upgrade
Good post Fluges......
Bottom line.....Farmer is supposed to improve our talent anyway he can.....
Last season we were weak in the defensive backfield and he brought in Gilbert, Kwaun Williams, Donte Whitner and Pierre Desir....and created one of the best(if not THE best group in the league)....yet, hes considered an ass because of Gilbert?
And we had NO running backs(none, zip, zilch, nada)....and he brought in Tate, West and Crowell(as well as the Duke).....yet, he's an ass because of West?....
And then in 2014 our D line struggled, so Farmer goes and gets Starks, Meder, Cooper and Shelton......but, for some reason, there are some who think he should be fired because Mayle didnt work out or West was cut or something.....???
So, in 2 years, he has completely revamped our DB's, our DL and seriously upgraded our talent at WR, RB, LB(Dansby, Orchard) & OL(Bito, Erving) etc....and, Id say, while most position groups are vastly improved, not one single position has gotten worse
All I see is a guy attacking the problems by drafting, signing UDFA's and UFA's....anything....to bring in the necessary people to build the team......and, apparently, he's smart enough to know that they dont always come via the first round.....
A lot of teams just draft "a" player and place the burden on him to perform, while I see the Farmer bringing in multiples and forcing them to compete and earn their jobs....I think I prefer his method over 'draft and pray'......
All I see is a guy attacking the problems by drafting, signing UDFA's and UFA's....anything....to bring in the necessary people to build the team......and, apparently, he's smart enough to know that they dont always come via the first round.....
The common source of the recruiting failures has been an issue for concern, but hopefully in the past.
Just got a little uncomfortable with your "attacking the problems" phrase. Transition from that kind of "firefighting" mode to controlled foresight has to be the Organization's next challenge, otherwise we end up in a state of perpetual whack-a-mole.
Attack the 2ndary... surprise the D-line is a problem.
Attack the D-line...
surprise your RB stable is nearly empty...
your O-line is only 6 deep...
your TEs are stacked 4-deep... with average talent.
... and then there's the QB situation...
Damn... I'm depressing myself....
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
All I see is a guy attacking the problems by drafting, signing UDFA's and UFA's....anything....to bring in the necessary people to build the team......and, apparently, he's smart enough to know that they dont always come via the first round.....
The common source of the recruiting failures has been an issue for concern, but hopefully in the past.
Just got a little uncomfortable with your "attacking the problems" phrase. Transition from that kind of "firefighting" mode to controlled foresight has to be the Organization's next challenge, otherwise we end up in a state of perpetual whack-a-mole.
Attack the 2ndary... surprise the D-line is a problem.
Attack the D-line...
surprise your RB stable is nearly empty...
your O-line is only 6 deep...
your TEs are stacked 4-deep... with average talent.
... and then there's the QB situation...
Damn... I'm depressing myself....
Damn... I'm depressing myself....
Cmon Tour, stop depressing yourself.....you, of all people, should understand he cant do all in one year....
Id say his approach at least has fixed some things, while just picking one player per area wouldnt have....
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Positivity time!
- The DL got seriously beat up last year - nobody could have seen that coming. They were supposed to be one of the strengths of the team before the season.
- The RB stable - do you remember what it was before Farmer came in? Refresher - Edwin Baker was vying to be lead back with Chris Ogbonnaya. Willis McGahee had just rushed for about 200 yards on 200 carries. Then all of a sudden we have Tate, West & Crowell. Tate and West didn't fit the type of player we're looking for so were shipped out. Now even just Crowell and Duke, hugely upgraded over Baker, Oby & Lewis.
- Outside of a fresh-faced Josh Gordon, our receiving corps was Little, Bess, and who the fuck else? Now our problem is the guys we have are solid but not spectacular. A bunch of #2s, no #1. Well guess what, two years ago we had a bunch of #4s.
- Brandon "sacked by a flag" Weeden was our starting QB. Brandon "reverse underhand flip intercepted two weeks in a row" Weeden. McCown is a semi-solid journeyman, which is a huge upgrade from Brandon "catch my own batted pass and throw it again cos i know the rules really" Weeden. Forget the heisman winning young backup we're grooming to take over in a year - McCown + Davis > Weeden + McCoy/Hoyer
- Remember when our pass rushers were Sheard (respectable) and Frostee Rucker? Because I do. Now we have a double digit sack guy in Kruger, plus others on a par with Sheard.
Feeling less depressed now?
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You are right on point. Everyone thought it was brilliant we jumped the Ravens to get him.
Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastn-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs in 2013.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick. With an old school coach like Wilbert Montgomery lighting his fanny plus experience - I expect to see even more of Crowe's upside tapped in 2015.
Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastn-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs in 2013.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick. With an old school coach like Wilbert Montgomery lighting his fanny plus experience - I expect to see even more of Crowe's upside tapped in 2015.
I enjoyed your other post, just read it now. But the bold above is simply not true.
Draftniks and analysts were universally praising Browns for skipping Ravens to select West in round 3.
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People forget so quickly. Farmer trading up and getting West in round 3 was universally accepted as a coup by the draft community.
As Higdon pointed out, it's insane they didn't know or care about his work ethic and personality problems considering they had a former Towson coach on their staff.
Concerning, Ray Ray
Farmer trading up and getting West in round 3 was universally accepted as a coup by the draft community.
As Higdon pointed out, it's insane they didn't know or care about his work ethic and personality problems considering they had a former Towson coach on their staff.
Concerning, Ray Ray
Draftniks and analysts were universally praising Browns for skipping Ravens to select West in round 3.
So....if it was universally accepted as a coup by the entire draft community....how is it inexcusable that they didnt know?....(seems contradictory to me)
could it be that no one knew?....(you know, universally NOT known?)......
Id say lots(many, tons) of college players have maturity issues......lots and lots and lots.....and most of them just grow up and mature, right?
So, to say a guy like West(or Gilbert) should be flagged for immaturity, means that 1/2 the players drafted should also be....Most teams have to assume their picks will grow up and Im sure the Browns fit in that group.....
Its not like these guys have had issues with the law, or drugs, etc.....(like so many others who are picked).....
If we pass on every immature player, pretty soon no one is drafting guys like Moss, TO, Favre, Winston, Lynch, D. Sanders, etc etc......geez, the list is miles long......you just have to take your chances and win some and lose some......but there is no formula to which ones will mature and which ones will fail.....
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Farmer trading up and getting West in round 3 was universally accepted as a coup by the draft community.
As Higdon pointed out, it's insane they didn't know or care about his work ethic and personality problems considering they had a former Towson coach on their staff.
Concerning, Ray Ray
Draftniks and analysts were universally praising Browns for skipping Ravens to select West in round 3.
So....if it was universally accepted as a coup by the entire draft community....how is it inexcusable that they didnt know?....(seems contradictory to me)
could it be that no one knew?....(you know, universally NOT known?)......
Id say lots(many, tons) of college players have maturity issues......lots and lots and lots.....and most of them just grow up and mature, right?
So, to say a guy like West(or Gilbert) should be flagged for immaturity, means that 1/2 the players drafted should also be....Most teams have to assume their picks will grow up and Im sure the Browns fit in that group.....
Its not like these guys have had issues with the law, or drugs, etc.....(like so many others who are picked).....
If we pass on every immature player, pretty soon no one is drafting guys like Moss, TO, Favre, Winston, Lynch, D. Sanders, etc etc......geez, the list is miles long......you just have to take your chances and win some and lose some......but there is no formula to which ones will mature and which ones will fail.....
So....if it was universally accepted as a coup by the entire draft community....how is it inexcusable that they didnt know?....(seems contradictory to me)
could it be that no one knew?....(you know, universally NOT known?)......
Id say lots(many, tons) of college players have maturity issues......lots and lots and lots.....and most of them just grow up and mature, right?
So, to say a guy like West(or Gilbert) should be flagged for immaturity, means that 1/2 the players drafted should also be....Most teams have to assume their picks will grow up and Im sure the Browns fit in that group.....
Its not like these guys have had issues with the law, or drugs, etc.....(like so many others who are picked).....
If we pass on every immature player, pretty soon no one is drafting guys like Moss, TO, Favre, Winston, Lynch, D. Sanders, etc etc......geez, the list is miles long......you just have to take your chances and win some and lose some......but there is no formula to which ones will mature and which ones will fail.....
The Browns had inside knowledge being that they had Towson staff connections. So, I think it's a little more inexcusable than for someone without that type of information to make a judgement call like they did on a player who was as unteachable as West ended up being.
Farmer said something interesting that I remembered after the 2014 draft.
"It's about getting a full, comprehensive report," Farmer said. "Who is the guy as a football player? What's his football knowledge? What are his work habits? What's his ability or demeanor to want to eat the tape and work on it and grind on it? What's his level of intelligence? Everybody won't have the same boxes checked. There will be some blemishes on each of them. It depends on how bad those blemishes are."
It's possible West checked a lot more boxes than he didn't, and that he talked a good enough game to make Ray take a chance on him.
Whatever happened here is still a failure in process, because it's not an isolated example. Farmer and his staff took too many chances in the 2014 draft on players with questionable work habits or personal issues.
Universally being accepted by draft analysts should not be the equivalent of approval for NFL roster management executives. They are/should be better informed than anyone and attempt to minimize risk more effectively.
I covered that draft pretty closely and heard very little about West or Gilbert's issues.
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Cmon Tour, stop depressing yourself.....you, of all people, should understand he cant do all in one year....
Id say his approach at least has fixed some things, while just picking one player per area wouldnt have....
It's just that firefighting is a mode that organizations get into that can be very hard to break out of. It is not an approach that sustains long-term excellence.
Positivity time! Feeling less depressed now?
Actually, yes...
The Browns had inside knowledge being that they had Towson staff connections. So, I think it's a little more inexcusable than for someone without that type of information to make a judgement call like they did on a player who was as unteachable as West ended up being.
Is it possible that the connections were fans of the kid?
And was being unteachable the final, fatal flaw?
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yeah...I gotta wonder how honest and/or forthcoming college coaches(staff) are with NFL guys....
Id think that a lot of them protect their guys.....or want to see them get picked and succeed in the NFL....and/or have a greater allegiance to their own players than they do to some NFL scouts....
So, it wouldnt surprise me to find out college coaches back up their guys and avoid bad mouthing them on the way out....
West and Gilbert were superstars for their perspective college coaches......so, why would their coaches do something to hurt their chances as they walk out the door??....what do they have to gain by doing that?......
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yeah...I gotta wonder how honest and/or forthcoming college coaches(staff) are with NFL guys....
Id think that a lot of them protect their guys.....or want to see them get picked and succeed in the NFL....and/or have a greater allegiance to their own players than they do to some NFL scouts....
So, it wouldnt surprise me to find out college coaches back up their guys and avoid bad mouthing them on the way out....
West and Gilbert were superstars for their perspective college coaches......so, why would their coaches do something to hurt their chances as they walk out the door??....what do they have to gain by doing that?......
yeah...I gotta wonder how honest and/or forthcoming college coaches(staff) are with NFL guys....
Id think that a lot of them protect their guys.....or want to see them get picked and succeed in the NFL....and/or have a greater allegiance to their own players than they do to some NFL scouts....
So, it wouldnt surprise me to find out college coaches back up their guys and avoid bad mouthing them on the way out....
West and Gilbert were superstars for their perspective college coaches......so, why would their coaches do something to hurt their chances as they walk out the door??....what do they have to gain by doing that?......
Depends on how good of friends they were with their respective Browns connections, I guess.
If I was a coach and West was a shithead in the locker room, I wouldn't sugar coat it and lie to my friend whose career is on the line when making draft picks.
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