West to Tennessee
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Again, Farmer's job was to upgrade
Good post Fluges......
Bottom line.....Farmer is supposed to improve our talent anyway he can.....
Last season we were weak in the defensive backfield and he brought in Gilbert, Kwaun Williams, Donte Whitner and Pierre Desir....and created one of the best(if not THE best group in the league)....yet, hes considered an ass because of Gilbert?
And we had NO running backs(none, zip, zilch, nada)....and he brought in Tate, West and Crowell(as well as the Duke).....yet, he's an ass because of West?....
And then in 2014 our D line struggled, so Farmer goes and gets Starks, Meder, Cooper and Shelton......but, for some reason, there are some who think he should be fired because Mayle didnt work out or West was cut or something.....???
So, in 2 years, he has completely revamped our DB's, our DL and seriously upgraded our talent at WR, RB, LB(Dansby, Orchard) & OL(Bito, Erving) etc....and, Id say, while most position groups are vastly improved, not one single position has gotten worse
All I see is a guy attacking the problems by drafting, signing UDFA's and UFA's....anything....to bring in the necessary people to build the team......and, apparently, he's smart enough to know that they dont always come via the first round.....
A lot of teams just draft "a" player and place the burden on him to perform, while I see the Farmer bringing in multiples and forcing them to compete and earn their jobs....I think I prefer his method over 'draft and pray'......
All I see is a guy attacking the problems by drafting, signing UDFA's and UFA's....anything....to bring in the necessary people to build the team......and, apparently, he's smart enough to know that they dont always come via the first round.....
The common source of the recruiting failures has been an issue for concern, but hopefully in the past.
Just got a little uncomfortable with your "attacking the problems" phrase. Transition from that kind of "firefighting" mode to controlled foresight has to be the Organization's next challenge, otherwise we end up in a state of perpetual whack-a-mole.
Attack the 2ndary... surprise the D-line is a problem.
Attack the D-line...
surprise your RB stable is nearly empty...
your O-line is only 6 deep...
your TEs are stacked 4-deep... with average talent.
... and then there's the QB situation...
Damn... I'm depressing myself....
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
All I see is a guy attacking the problems by drafting, signing UDFA's and UFA's....anything....to bring in the necessary people to build the team......and, apparently, he's smart enough to know that they dont always come via the first round.....
The common source of the recruiting failures has been an issue for concern, but hopefully in the past.
Just got a little uncomfortable with your "attacking the problems" phrase. Transition from that kind of "firefighting" mode to controlled foresight has to be the Organization's next challenge, otherwise we end up in a state of perpetual whack-a-mole.
Attack the 2ndary... surprise the D-line is a problem.
Attack the D-line...
surprise your RB stable is nearly empty...
your O-line is only 6 deep...
your TEs are stacked 4-deep... with average talent.
... and then there's the QB situation...
Damn... I'm depressing myself....
Damn... I'm depressing myself....
Cmon Tour, stop depressing yourself.....you, of all people, should understand he cant do all in one year....
Id say his approach at least has fixed some things, while just picking one player per area wouldnt have....
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Positivity time!
- The DL got seriously beat up last year - nobody could have seen that coming. They were supposed to be one of the strengths of the team before the season.
- The RB stable - do you remember what it was before Farmer came in? Refresher - Edwin Baker was vying to be lead back with Chris Ogbonnaya. Willis McGahee had just rushed for about 200 yards on 200 carries. Then all of a sudden we have Tate, West & Crowell. Tate and West didn't fit the type of player we're looking for so were shipped out. Now even just Crowell and Duke, hugely upgraded over Baker, Oby & Lewis.
- Outside of a fresh-faced Josh Gordon, our receiving corps was Little, Bess, and who the fuck else? Now our problem is the guys we have are solid but not spectacular. A bunch of #2s, no #1. Well guess what, two years ago we had a bunch of #4s.
- Brandon "sacked by a flag" Weeden was our starting QB. Brandon "reverse underhand flip intercepted two weeks in a row" Weeden. McCown is a semi-solid journeyman, which is a huge upgrade from Brandon "catch my own batted pass and throw it again cos i know the rules really" Weeden. Forget the heisman winning young backup we're grooming to take over in a year - McCown + Davis > Weeden + McCoy/Hoyer
- Remember when our pass rushers were Sheard (respectable) and Frostee Rucker? Because I do. Now we have a double digit sack guy in Kruger, plus others on a par with Sheard.
Feeling less depressed now?
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You are right on point. Everyone thought it was brilliant we jumped the Ravens to get him.
Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastn-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs in 2013.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick. With an old school coach like Wilbert Montgomery lighting his fanny plus experience - I expect to see even more of Crowe's upside tapped in 2015.
Who's everyone?
I read far more enthusiasm about us signing Isaiah Crowell as an undrafted FA than I read about us drafting Terrence Eastn-West from a small school in round 4. Crowe made a huge splash as a Freshman RB at Georgia; and it helped people find their game faces about our RB position that was previously a committee full of former Houston Texans practice squad RBs in 2013.
I think he's given us at least the exchange value of a 4th round pick. With an old school coach like Wilbert Montgomery lighting his fanny plus experience - I expect to see even more of Crowe's upside tapped in 2015.
I enjoyed your other post, just read it now. But the bold above is simply not true.
Draftniks and analysts were universally praising Browns for skipping Ravens to select West in round 3.
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People forget so quickly. Farmer trading up and getting West in round 3 was universally accepted as a coup by the draft community.
As Higdon pointed out, it's insane they didn't know or care about his work ethic and personality problems considering they had a former Towson coach on their staff.
Concerning, Ray Ray
Farmer trading up and getting West in round 3 was universally accepted as a coup by the draft community.
As Higdon pointed out, it's insane they didn't know or care about his work ethic and personality problems considering they had a former Towson coach on their staff.
Concerning, Ray Ray
Draftniks and analysts were universally praising Browns for skipping Ravens to select West in round 3.
So....if it was universally accepted as a coup by the entire draft community....how is it inexcusable that they didnt know?....(seems contradictory to me)
could it be that no one knew?....(you know, universally NOT known?)......
Id say lots(many, tons) of college players have maturity issues......lots and lots and lots.....and most of them just grow up and mature, right?
So, to say a guy like West(or Gilbert) should be flagged for immaturity, means that 1/2 the players drafted should also be....Most teams have to assume their picks will grow up and Im sure the Browns fit in that group.....
Its not like these guys have had issues with the law, or drugs, etc.....(like so many others who are picked).....
If we pass on every immature player, pretty soon no one is drafting guys like Moss, TO, Favre, Winston, Lynch, D. Sanders, etc etc......geez, the list is miles long......you just have to take your chances and win some and lose some......but there is no formula to which ones will mature and which ones will fail.....
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Farmer trading up and getting West in round 3 was universally accepted as a coup by the draft community.
As Higdon pointed out, it's insane they didn't know or care about his work ethic and personality problems considering they had a former Towson coach on their staff.
Concerning, Ray Ray
Draftniks and analysts were universally praising Browns for skipping Ravens to select West in round 3.
So....if it was universally accepted as a coup by the entire draft community....how is it inexcusable that they didnt know?....(seems contradictory to me)
could it be that no one knew?....(you know, universally NOT known?)......
Id say lots(many, tons) of college players have maturity issues......lots and lots and lots.....and most of them just grow up and mature, right?
So, to say a guy like West(or Gilbert) should be flagged for immaturity, means that 1/2 the players drafted should also be....Most teams have to assume their picks will grow up and Im sure the Browns fit in that group.....
Its not like these guys have had issues with the law, or drugs, etc.....(like so many others who are picked).....
If we pass on every immature player, pretty soon no one is drafting guys like Moss, TO, Favre, Winston, Lynch, D. Sanders, etc etc......geez, the list is miles long......you just have to take your chances and win some and lose some......but there is no formula to which ones will mature and which ones will fail.....
So....if it was universally accepted as a coup by the entire draft community....how is it inexcusable that they didnt know?....(seems contradictory to me)
could it be that no one knew?....(you know, universally NOT known?)......
Id say lots(many, tons) of college players have maturity issues......lots and lots and lots.....and most of them just grow up and mature, right?
So, to say a guy like West(or Gilbert) should be flagged for immaturity, means that 1/2 the players drafted should also be....Most teams have to assume their picks will grow up and Im sure the Browns fit in that group.....
Its not like these guys have had issues with the law, or drugs, etc.....(like so many others who are picked).....
If we pass on every immature player, pretty soon no one is drafting guys like Moss, TO, Favre, Winston, Lynch, D. Sanders, etc etc......geez, the list is miles long......you just have to take your chances and win some and lose some......but there is no formula to which ones will mature and which ones will fail.....
The Browns had inside knowledge being that they had Towson staff connections. So, I think it's a little more inexcusable than for someone without that type of information to make a judgement call like they did on a player who was as unteachable as West ended up being.
Farmer said something interesting that I remembered after the 2014 draft.
"It's about getting a full, comprehensive report," Farmer said. "Who is the guy as a football player? What's his football knowledge? What are his work habits? What's his ability or demeanor to want to eat the tape and work on it and grind on it? What's his level of intelligence? Everybody won't have the same boxes checked. There will be some blemishes on each of them. It depends on how bad those blemishes are."
It's possible West checked a lot more boxes than he didn't, and that he talked a good enough game to make Ray take a chance on him.
Whatever happened here is still a failure in process, because it's not an isolated example. Farmer and his staff took too many chances in the 2014 draft on players with questionable work habits or personal issues.
Universally being accepted by draft analysts should not be the equivalent of approval for NFL roster management executives. They are/should be better informed than anyone and attempt to minimize risk more effectively.
I covered that draft pretty closely and heard very little about West or Gilbert's issues.
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Cmon Tour, stop depressing yourself.....you, of all people, should understand he cant do all in one year....
Id say his approach at least has fixed some things, while just picking one player per area wouldnt have....
It's just that firefighting is a mode that organizations get into that can be very hard to break out of. It is not an approach that sustains long-term excellence.
Positivity time! Feeling less depressed now?
Actually, yes...
The Browns had inside knowledge being that they had Towson staff connections. So, I think it's a little more inexcusable than for someone without that type of information to make a judgement call like they did on a player who was as unteachable as West ended up being.
Is it possible that the connections were fans of the kid?
And was being unteachable the final, fatal flaw?
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yeah...I gotta wonder how honest and/or forthcoming college coaches(staff) are with NFL guys....
Id think that a lot of them protect their guys.....or want to see them get picked and succeed in the NFL....and/or have a greater allegiance to their own players than they do to some NFL scouts....
So, it wouldnt surprise me to find out college coaches back up their guys and avoid bad mouthing them on the way out....
West and Gilbert were superstars for their perspective college coaches......so, why would their coaches do something to hurt their chances as they walk out the door??....what do they have to gain by doing that?......
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yeah...I gotta wonder how honest and/or forthcoming college coaches(staff) are with NFL guys....
Id think that a lot of them protect their guys.....or want to see them get picked and succeed in the NFL....and/or have a greater allegiance to their own players than they do to some NFL scouts....
So, it wouldnt surprise me to find out college coaches back up their guys and avoid bad mouthing them on the way out....
West and Gilbert were superstars for their perspective college coaches......so, why would their coaches do something to hurt their chances as they walk out the door??....what do they have to gain by doing that?......
yeah...I gotta wonder how honest and/or forthcoming college coaches(staff) are with NFL guys....
Id think that a lot of them protect their guys.....or want to see them get picked and succeed in the NFL....and/or have a greater allegiance to their own players than they do to some NFL scouts....
So, it wouldnt surprise me to find out college coaches back up their guys and avoid bad mouthing them on the way out....
West and Gilbert were superstars for their perspective college coaches......so, why would their coaches do something to hurt their chances as they walk out the door??....what do they have to gain by doing that?......
Depends on how good of friends they were with their respective Browns connections, I guess.
If I was a coach and West was a shithead in the locker room, I wouldn't sugar coat it and lie to my friend whose career is on the line when making draft picks.
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Not saying it's the same in coaching, but companies generally don't give comment on former employee's performance or "issues". They merely confirm employment dates if called by a prospective employer. Especially if there is anything negative to say. Why? Liability...
As for West in particular, it's possible that contacts did not see any issues or thought them too insignificant to mention. "Talented kid who just needs to mature some," could be a reasonable assessment.
If ability to learn ended up being the issue in CLE, I can easily see why that might not have been an issue at Towson. Complexity levels surely are incomparable. Have to say that he seemed to learn blitz pick ups here.
I wonder if in the end it was West's running style that did not change with coaching. More of a flowing style that would take a hole if presented, but otherwise seemed to look for the edge... like a change-of-pace back minus the pace change.
Instead the staff may have been looking to create another decisive, Crow-style, one-cut back... and that was just not in West to bring out.
Be interesting to see what gives in TN.
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Not saying it's the same in coaching, but companies generally don't give comment on former employee's performance or "issues". They merely confirm employment dates if called by a prospective employer. Especially if there is anything negative to say. Why? Liability...
As for West in particular, it's possible that contacts did not see any issues or thought them too insignificant to mention. "Talented kid who just needs to mature some," could be a reasonable assessment.
If ability to learn ended up being the issue in CLE, I can easily see why that might not have been an issue at Towson. Complexity levels surely are incomparable. Have to say that he seemed to learn blitz pick ups here.
I wonder if in the end it was West's running style that did not change with coaching. More of a flowing style that would take a hole if presented, but otherwise seemed to look for the edge... like a change-of-pace back minus the pace change.
Instead the staff may have been looking to create another decisive, Crow-style, one-cut back... and that was just not in West to bring out.
Be interesting to see what gives in TN.
I wonder if in the end it was West's running style that did not change with coaching. More of a flowing style that would take a hole if presented, but otherwise seemed to look for the edge... like a change-of-pace back minus the pace change.
I was thinking a similar thing. Some backs can do the east-west running in HS and a small college, but the pros just eat you alive if you don't find the small crease they give you and get the most from it. The more you slide outside, the more they run you down without gaining yardage. The Browns want north-south runners who will take the 3-5 yard gain and control the ball.
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yeah...I gotta wonder how honest and/or forthcoming college coaches(staff) are with NFL guys....
Id think that a lot of them protect their guys.....or want to see them get picked and succeed in the NFL....and/or have a greater allegiance to their own players than they do to some NFL scouts....
So, it wouldnt surprise me to find out college coaches back up their guys and avoid bad mouthing them on the way out....
West and Gilbert were superstars for their perspective college coaches......so, why would their coaches do something to hurt their chances as they walk out the door??....what do they have to gain by doing that?......
Depends on how good of friends they were with their respective Browns connections, I guess.
If I was a coach and West was a shithead in the locker room, I wouldn't sugar coat it and lie to my friend whose career is on the line when making draft picks.
Depends on how good of friends they were with their respective Browns connections, I guess.
If I was a coach and West was a shithead in the locker room, I wouldn't sugar coat it and lie to my friend whose career is on the line when making draft picks.
But you're a fan like the rest of us so it's very different what any of us would do. For example, Jameis Winston's last Head Coach (Jimbo Fisher) said he's a great kid. This is a classic example of a College Coach wanting his hand selected QB drafted first overall in the NFL draft. We know why that's important to Jimbo.
Along the same line, I doubt Brett Favre's college coach at So Miss warned Jerry Glanville - "you're never going to get him out of happy hour."
For all the excitement Manziel brought to A&M - do you think Kevin Sumlin gave us a full disclosure of what we could expect off the field from our new 21 year old QB last year?
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I feel a good question is - do we believe it to be random coincidence that the scouting department was essentially gutted after the 14' draft?!
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I feel a good question is - do we believe it to be random coincidence that the scouting department was essentially gutted after the 14' draft?!
I feel a good question is - do we believe it to be random coincidence that the scouting department was essentially gutted after the 14' draft?!
That is a good question. Is it also a coincidence we stayed in the Pac 12 for 7 of our 12 draft picks in 2015 after gutting the scouting dept?
Here's the thing though - I really like the last 2 off seasons. They began with a philosophy and specific plans to meet it. We haven't always had that here.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
I feel a good question is - do we believe it to be random coincidence that the scouting department was essentially gutted after the 14' draft?!
I feel a good question is - do we believe it to be random coincidence that the scouting department was essentially gutted after the 14' draft?!
I'd forgotten that, but wasn't much of the change a case of Ray building his own staff?
Something he simply did not have time to do before the 2014 draft?
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I feel a good question is - do we believe it to be random coincidence that the scouting department was essentially gutted after the 14' draft?!
That is a good question. Is it also a coincidence we stayed in the Pac 12 for 7 of our 12 draft picks in 2015 after gutting the scouting dept?
Here's the thing though - I really like the last 2 off seasons. They began with a philosophy and specific plans to meet it. We haven't always had that here.
That is a good question. Is it also a coincidence we stayed in the Pac 12 for 7 of our 12 draft picks in 2015 after gutting the scouting dept?
Here's the thing though - I really like the last 2 off seasons. They began with a philosophy and specific plans to meet it. We haven't always had that here.
I think there is a mindset for players the front office looked for this past draft. The Pac has a lot of east-west and pass happy offenses, I feel
the coaches and Farmer wanted to bring in players that can rush the passer, push the pocket and play well in space. Not to say players in other conferences can't, but it just so happened the BPA at the time whom fit the mold came from that conference.
I'd forgotten that, but wasn't much of the change a case of Ray building his own staff?
Something he simply did not have time to do before the 2014 draft?
I'm certain it was the bulk of the reason for the change. However Farmer and Pettine have spoken ad nauseam about character being a big part of their draft evaluations. I'm quite sure that also played into the hands for the personnel change in scouting. Red flags that should have been uncovered were not.
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right...my memory has Farmer taking the helm a month or 2 before the draft....so, last year, he would have had to use all Lombardis guys and their opinions for the draft...of course, he was part of this same group prior to being promoted....
None the less, it only makes sense he would make changes and hire his own guys for this years draft and going forward....
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