West to Tennessee
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Farmer trading up and getting West in round 3 was universally accepted as a coup by the draft community.
As Higdon pointed out, it's insane they didn't know or care about his work ethic and personality problems considering they had a former Towson coach on their staff.
Concerning, Ray Ray
Draftniks and analysts were universally praising Browns for skipping Ravens to select West in round 3.
So....if it was universally accepted as a coup by the entire draft community....how is it inexcusable that they didnt know?....(seems contradictory to me)
could it be that no one knew?....(you know, universally NOT known?)......
Id say lots(many, tons) of college players have maturity issues......lots and lots and lots.....and most of them just grow up and mature, right?
So, to say a guy like West(or Gilbert) should be flagged for immaturity, means that 1/2 the players drafted should also be....Most teams have to assume their picks will grow up and Im sure the Browns fit in that group.....
Its not like these guys have had issues with the law, or drugs, etc.....(like so many others who are picked).....
If we pass on every immature player, pretty soon no one is drafting guys like Moss, TO, Favre, Winston, Lynch, D. Sanders, etc etc......geez, the list is miles long......you just have to take your chances and win some and lose some......but there is no formula to which ones will mature and which ones will fail.....
So....if it was universally accepted as a coup by the entire draft community....how is it inexcusable that they didnt know?....(seems contradictory to me)
could it be that no one knew?....(you know, universally NOT known?)......
Id say lots(many, tons) of college players have maturity issues......lots and lots and lots.....and most of them just grow up and mature, right?
So, to say a guy like West(or Gilbert) should be flagged for immaturity, means that 1/2 the players drafted should also be....Most teams have to assume their picks will grow up and Im sure the Browns fit in that group.....
Its not like these guys have had issues with the law, or drugs, etc.....(like so many others who are picked).....
If we pass on every immature player, pretty soon no one is drafting guys like Moss, TO, Favre, Winston, Lynch, D. Sanders, etc etc......geez, the list is miles long......you just have to take your chances and win some and lose some......but there is no formula to which ones will mature and which ones will fail.....
The Browns had inside knowledge being that they had Towson staff connections. So, I think it's a little more inexcusable than for someone without that type of information to make a judgement call like they did on a player who was as unteachable as West ended up being.
Farmer said something interesting that I remembered after the 2014 draft.
"It's about getting a full, comprehensive report," Farmer said. "Who is the guy as a football player? What's his football knowledge? What are his work habits? What's his ability or demeanor to want to eat the tape and work on it and grind on it? What's his level of intelligence? Everybody won't have the same boxes checked. There will be some blemishes on each of them. It depends on how bad those blemishes are."
It's possible West checked a lot more boxes than he didn't, and that he talked a good enough game to make Ray take a chance on him.
Whatever happened here is still a failure in process, because it's not an isolated example. Farmer and his staff took too many chances in the 2014 draft on players with questionable work habits or personal issues.
Universally being accepted by draft analysts should not be the equivalent of approval for NFL roster management executives. They are/should be better informed than anyone and attempt to minimize risk more effectively.
I covered that draft pretty closely and heard very little about West or Gilbert's issues.
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Cmon Tour, stop depressing yourself.....you, of all people, should understand he cant do all in one year....
Id say his approach at least has fixed some things, while just picking one player per area wouldnt have....
It's just that firefighting is a mode that organizations get into that can be very hard to break out of. It is not an approach that sustains long-term excellence.
Positivity time! Feeling less depressed now?
Actually, yes...
The Browns had inside knowledge being that they had Towson staff connections. So, I think it's a little more inexcusable than for someone without that type of information to make a judgement call like they did on a player who was as unteachable as West ended up being.
Is it possible that the connections were fans of the kid?
And was being unteachable the final, fatal flaw?
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yeah...I gotta wonder how honest and/or forthcoming college coaches(staff) are with NFL guys....
Id think that a lot of them protect their guys.....or want to see them get picked and succeed in the NFL....and/or have a greater allegiance to their own players than they do to some NFL scouts....
So, it wouldnt surprise me to find out college coaches back up their guys and avoid bad mouthing them on the way out....
West and Gilbert were superstars for their perspective college coaches......so, why would their coaches do something to hurt their chances as they walk out the door??....what do they have to gain by doing that?......
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yeah...I gotta wonder how honest and/or forthcoming college coaches(staff) are with NFL guys....
Id think that a lot of them protect their guys.....or want to see them get picked and succeed in the NFL....and/or have a greater allegiance to their own players than they do to some NFL scouts....
So, it wouldnt surprise me to find out college coaches back up their guys and avoid bad mouthing them on the way out....
West and Gilbert were superstars for their perspective college coaches......so, why would their coaches do something to hurt their chances as they walk out the door??....what do they have to gain by doing that?......
yeah...I gotta wonder how honest and/or forthcoming college coaches(staff) are with NFL guys....
Id think that a lot of them protect their guys.....or want to see them get picked and succeed in the NFL....and/or have a greater allegiance to their own players than they do to some NFL scouts....
So, it wouldnt surprise me to find out college coaches back up their guys and avoid bad mouthing them on the way out....
West and Gilbert were superstars for their perspective college coaches......so, why would their coaches do something to hurt their chances as they walk out the door??....what do they have to gain by doing that?......
Depends on how good of friends they were with their respective Browns connections, I guess.
If I was a coach and West was a shithead in the locker room, I wouldn't sugar coat it and lie to my friend whose career is on the line when making draft picks.
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Not saying it's the same in coaching, but companies generally don't give comment on former employee's performance or "issues". They merely confirm employment dates if called by a prospective employer. Especially if there is anything negative to say. Why? Liability...
As for West in particular, it's possible that contacts did not see any issues or thought them too insignificant to mention. "Talented kid who just needs to mature some," could be a reasonable assessment.
If ability to learn ended up being the issue in CLE, I can easily see why that might not have been an issue at Towson. Complexity levels surely are incomparable. Have to say that he seemed to learn blitz pick ups here.
I wonder if in the end it was West's running style that did not change with coaching. More of a flowing style that would take a hole if presented, but otherwise seemed to look for the edge... like a change-of-pace back minus the pace change.
Instead the staff may have been looking to create another decisive, Crow-style, one-cut back... and that was just not in West to bring out.
Be interesting to see what gives in TN.
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Not saying it's the same in coaching, but companies generally don't give comment on former employee's performance or "issues". They merely confirm employment dates if called by a prospective employer. Especially if there is anything negative to say. Why? Liability...
As for West in particular, it's possible that contacts did not see any issues or thought them too insignificant to mention. "Talented kid who just needs to mature some," could be a reasonable assessment.
If ability to learn ended up being the issue in CLE, I can easily see why that might not have been an issue at Towson. Complexity levels surely are incomparable. Have to say that he seemed to learn blitz pick ups here.
I wonder if in the end it was West's running style that did not change with coaching. More of a flowing style that would take a hole if presented, but otherwise seemed to look for the edge... like a change-of-pace back minus the pace change.
Instead the staff may have been looking to create another decisive, Crow-style, one-cut back... and that was just not in West to bring out.
Be interesting to see what gives in TN.
I wonder if in the end it was West's running style that did not change with coaching. More of a flowing style that would take a hole if presented, but otherwise seemed to look for the edge... like a change-of-pace back minus the pace change.
I was thinking a similar thing. Some backs can do the east-west running in HS and a small college, but the pros just eat you alive if you don't find the small crease they give you and get the most from it. The more you slide outside, the more they run you down without gaining yardage. The Browns want north-south runners who will take the 3-5 yard gain and control the ball.
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yeah...I gotta wonder how honest and/or forthcoming college coaches(staff) are with NFL guys....
Id think that a lot of them protect their guys.....or want to see them get picked and succeed in the NFL....and/or have a greater allegiance to their own players than they do to some NFL scouts....
So, it wouldnt surprise me to find out college coaches back up their guys and avoid bad mouthing them on the way out....
West and Gilbert were superstars for their perspective college coaches......so, why would their coaches do something to hurt their chances as they walk out the door??....what do they have to gain by doing that?......
Depends on how good of friends they were with their respective Browns connections, I guess.
If I was a coach and West was a shithead in the locker room, I wouldn't sugar coat it and lie to my friend whose career is on the line when making draft picks.
Depends on how good of friends they were with their respective Browns connections, I guess.
If I was a coach and West was a shithead in the locker room, I wouldn't sugar coat it and lie to my friend whose career is on the line when making draft picks.
But you're a fan like the rest of us so it's very different what any of us would do. For example, Jameis Winston's last Head Coach (Jimbo Fisher) said he's a great kid. This is a classic example of a College Coach wanting his hand selected QB drafted first overall in the NFL draft. We know why that's important to Jimbo.
Along the same line, I doubt Brett Favre's college coach at So Miss warned Jerry Glanville - "you're never going to get him out of happy hour."
For all the excitement Manziel brought to A&M - do you think Kevin Sumlin gave us a full disclosure of what we could expect off the field from our new 21 year old QB last year?
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I feel a good question is - do we believe it to be random coincidence that the scouting department was essentially gutted after the 14' draft?!
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I feel a good question is - do we believe it to be random coincidence that the scouting department was essentially gutted after the 14' draft?!
I feel a good question is - do we believe it to be random coincidence that the scouting department was essentially gutted after the 14' draft?!
That is a good question. Is it also a coincidence we stayed in the Pac 12 for 7 of our 12 draft picks in 2015 after gutting the scouting dept?
Here's the thing though - I really like the last 2 off seasons. They began with a philosophy and specific plans to meet it. We haven't always had that here.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
I feel a good question is - do we believe it to be random coincidence that the scouting department was essentially gutted after the 14' draft?!
I feel a good question is - do we believe it to be random coincidence that the scouting department was essentially gutted after the 14' draft?!
I'd forgotten that, but wasn't much of the change a case of Ray building his own staff?
Something he simply did not have time to do before the 2014 draft?
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I feel a good question is - do we believe it to be random coincidence that the scouting department was essentially gutted after the 14' draft?!
That is a good question. Is it also a coincidence we stayed in the Pac 12 for 7 of our 12 draft picks in 2015 after gutting the scouting dept?
Here's the thing though - I really like the last 2 off seasons. They began with a philosophy and specific plans to meet it. We haven't always had that here.
That is a good question. Is it also a coincidence we stayed in the Pac 12 for 7 of our 12 draft picks in 2015 after gutting the scouting dept?
Here's the thing though - I really like the last 2 off seasons. They began with a philosophy and specific plans to meet it. We haven't always had that here.
I think there is a mindset for players the front office looked for this past draft. The Pac has a lot of east-west and pass happy offenses, I feel
the coaches and Farmer wanted to bring in players that can rush the passer, push the pocket and play well in space. Not to say players in other conferences can't, but it just so happened the BPA at the time whom fit the mold came from that conference.
I'd forgotten that, but wasn't much of the change a case of Ray building his own staff?
Something he simply did not have time to do before the 2014 draft?
I'm certain it was the bulk of the reason for the change. However Farmer and Pettine have spoken ad nauseam about character being a big part of their draft evaluations. I'm quite sure that also played into the hands for the personnel change in scouting. Red flags that should have been uncovered were not.
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right...my memory has Farmer taking the helm a month or 2 before the draft....so, last year, he would have had to use all Lombardis guys and their opinions for the draft...of course, he was part of this same group prior to being promoted....
None the less, it only makes sense he would make changes and hire his own guys for this years draft and going forward....
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