A Compromise to Change and Continuity
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Dick LeBeau.......at 77 years old he would be better than the pile of shit we have running the defense.
Ummm 77 year old Dick Lebeau in his first year with the Titans has taken their defense from 27th in 2014 to 5th in 2015Dick LeBeau.......at 77 years old he would be better than the pile of shit we have running the defense.
"You see the Rams are still thinking that they are playing Tony Dorsett" -Jim Brown 1978 -
Get Gregg Williams the DC out of St. Louis Rams before they move west. I am so tired of watching his D whack people like they did us. If he gets the right people in the right places he has HC potential. His price cant be bad & knows how to build a Defensive Front that beats the man in front of you.
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Get Gregg Williams the DC out of St. Louis Rams before they move west. I am so tired of watching his D whack people like they did us. If he gets the right people in the right places he has HC potential. His price cant be bad & knows how to build a Defensive Front that beats the man in front of you.
Get Gregg Williams the DC out of St. Louis Rams before they move west. I am so tired of watching his D whack people like they did us. If he gets the right people in the right places he has HC potential. His price cant be bad & knows how to build a Defensive Front that beats the man in front of you.
Having 4 first round draft picks on the DL helps too.
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
Get Gregg Williams the DC out of St. Louis Rams before they move west. I am so tired of watching his D whack people like they did us. If he gets the right people in the right places he has HC potential. His price cant be bad & knows how to build a Defensive Front that beats the man in front of you.
Having 4 first round draft picks on the DL helps too.
Having 4 first round draft picks on the DL helps too.
Williams no name DB's are taught & know how to whack & cover too. Williams did his job to get all 4 also. Shelton & Dez Bryant is a start. We yuck it up to stumble on a Bosa & a OLB our DB's may not have to cover to long at all. When the problem for 2 seasons has been we can't stop the run, Williams answer has always been Were going 4 up front & were coming after you. I welcome that change.
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I would rather see Pettine stay then Farmer
4 1st round picks and none of them are impact players
They said they wanted to build through the draft
Farmer's drafts have been AWEFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ummm 77 year old Dick Lebeau in his first year with the Titans has taken their defense from 27th in 2014 to 5th in 2015Dick LeBeau.......at 77 years old he would be better than the pile of shit we have running the defense.
Ummm 77 year old Dick Lebeau in his first year with the Titans has taken their defense from 27th in 2014 to 5th in 2015
and they're 2-8. so i guess they shoulda drafted some OL along the way huh? cuz mariota didn't have time to scratch his balls let alone throw any tonite......dumbass.
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Ummm 77 year old Dick Lebeau in his first year with the Titans has taken their defense from 27th in 2014 to 5th in 2015
and they're 2-8. so i guess they shoulda drafted some OL along the way huh? cuz mariota didn't have time to scratch his balls let alone throw any tonite......dumbass.
and they're 2-8. so i guess they shoulda drafted some OL along the way huh? cuz mariota didn't have time to scratch his balls let alone throw any tonite......dumbass.
and he missed some wide open long passes when he did have time to look.
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From what I heard on the Browns Radio Show, nobody from the "Rex Ryan Tree" is really having great defensive success. I mean, the Bills have a pretty good defense, but it's not what many people thought it would be. Mario Williams has voiced his displeasure with the system on multiple occasions, and it primarily has to do with him not being granted the ability to rush the QB as much as he wants to. Pettine's scheme is flawed, and the proof is in the pudding. We have an expensive defense with veteran free agents and high draft picks, yet we yield no results. We were awful against the run last year, and this year I believe we're somehow worse. But the question is, why were we so good against the pass last year, only to be DREADFUL this season? What has changed? Sure, we had some injuries, but what team doesn't?
The most alarming part of all this failure, is the direction our team is going. We used to lose somewhat close games, and now we're just getting our collective asses whipped. Blowouts are not the norm in the NFL. You see a few each week, but seldom do you see one team get their ass handed to them on a platter multiple weeks in a row.
NFL Insider Adam Caplan was on our radio show yesterday, and he was asked about Pettine's future. He said he's definitely on the hot seat, and "something has to change". He didn't give specific details, but he said that it's obvious something has to change due to how poorly the defense is playing. He didn't have any answers as to why we are so bad against the run, and he wasn't a fan of using DL to cover people. He talked about the "Rex Ryan Tree", and how nobody from that group is having a whole lot of defensive success. It was a very informative interview, and I recommend it. He didn't slam our Browns, but he didn't sugarcoat it either.
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and he missed some wide open long passes when he did have time to look.
Yeah he did, which is uncharacteristic of his play. His accuracy is generally awesome, but he missed Delanie Walker on a stop and go move that would've been huge. You don't get many opportunities in the NFL for big plays, and when they present themselves, you have to cash in or you lose.
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My one real hope is that the coaching staff is adapting to the cba limits on player practice(so stupid) time and the reg season games are an extended form of preseason in order to see what you do have and what may work. Most rookies do not just step in and make a difference. They usually need special high intensity training that doesn't seem to be allowed anymore. I don't figure the coaches to be stupid either. Young and inexperienced yes. I hope they learn by mistakes and will come together as a solid unit. If we don't give them at least 3 years to get the team to winning ways.... SQUARE ONE!
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There's a big part of me that says "no matter what, Pettine and Farmer need a third year", as we've tried switching staff every year or two, and where has that gotten us? Perhaps they do need time to hone their craft, iron out the wrinkles, and work out the problems that have surfaced. We've been miserable for the better part of 17 years, what's another year of failure?
But...I'd be lying if I said that another year of these two didn't terrify me as well. Mainly because of the DIRECTION we are going. In my eyes, the Browns were a team that might usually lose, but you knew they'd come to play and it would probably be a close game. Now, we're just getting our ass whipped, and the scores aren't close anymore. Could we be doing the franchise a disservice by keeping everyone around for another year?
What really hurts is the fact we thought we were close last year. Hell, we were 7-4 and SOARING higher than we ever had. The wheels came off, we got zip from the QB position, and many people felt that we were a QB away from being competitive. All offseason, we heard about how we're going to stop the run, run the ball ourselves, "minimize the qb position", and play tough football. We constantly heard about our "elite OL", and our "elite secondary". What the hell happened?! Our secondary has been banged up, sure, but we've given up about 21 td's, and only picked off 6 passes! Not only can we not stop the run (aside from last week), but we can't get a run off before our back gets drilled 3 yards in the damn backfield.
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There's a big part of me that says "no matter what, Pettine and Farmer need a third year", as we've tried switching staff every year or two, and where has that gotten us? Perhaps they do need time to hone their craft, iron out the wrinkles, and work out the problems that have surfaced. We've been miserable for the better part of 17 years, what's another year of failure?
But...I'd be lying if I said that another year of these two didn't terrify me as well. Mainly because of the DIRECTION we are going. In my eyes, the Browns were a team that might usually lose, but you knew they'd come to play and it would probably be a close game. Now, we're just getting our ass whipped, and the scores aren't close anymore. Could we be doing the franchise a disservice by keeping everyone around for another year?
What really hurts is the fact we thought we were close last year. Hell, we were 7-4 and SOARING higher than we ever had. The wheels came off, we got zip from the QB position, and many people felt that we were a QB away from being competitive. All offseason, we heard about how we're going to stop the run, run the ball ourselves, "minimize the qb position", and play tough football. We constantly heard about our "elite OL", and our "elite secondary". What the hell happened?! Our secondary has been banged up, sure, but we've given up about 21 td's, and only picked off 6 passes! Not only can we not stop the run (aside from last week), but we can't get a run off before our back gets drilled 3 yards in the damn backfield.
There's a big part of me that says "no matter what, Pettine and Farmer need a third year", as we've tried switching staff every year or two, and where has that gotten us? Perhaps they do need time to hone their craft, iron out the wrinkles, and work out the problems that have surfaced. We've been miserable for the better part of 17 years, what's another year of failure?
But...I'd be lying if I said that another year of these two didn't terrify me as well. Mainly because of the DIRECTION we are going. In my eyes, the Browns were a team that might usually lose, but you knew they'd come to play and it would probably be a close game. Now, we're just getting our ass whipped, and the scores aren't close anymore. Could we be doing the franchise a disservice by keeping everyone around for another year?
What really hurts is the fact we thought we were close last year. Hell, we were 7-4 and SOARING higher than we ever had. The wheels came off, we got zip from the QB position, and many people felt that we were a QB away from being competitive. All offseason, we heard about how we're going to stop the run, run the ball ourselves, "minimize the qb position", and play tough football. We constantly heard about our "elite OL", and our "elite secondary". What the hell happened?! Our secondary has been banged up, sure, but we've given up about 21 td's, and only picked off 6 passes! Not only can we not stop the run (aside from last week), but we can't get a run off before our back gets drilled 3 yards in the damn backfield.
Check the 1st 3 or 4 years when noll took over the stealers. His wins were pretty scarce then. Is it the same thing? wish I knew that but I do know that there is only one way to find out.
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Washed up retreads and up and comers are not proven coordinators.....so, lets be clear about that......and change for the sake of change is a bad idea, when there is no "proven" answer available....
And I cant agree the "scheme" is flawed, just because a bunch of fans think it is....I can only agree that our guys aren't executing it nearly as well as the players in NY and BUFF did.....And, with the right people, it IS proven to work and is working right now in other cities...the scheme works.....with the right players....
The Armonty play(which Im already sick of hearing about) is an example of folks picking one play and using it over and over again to try to make some kind of a point about the scheme, when it was really just an opposing team exposing the mismatch(that exists on almost every play, if you know where to look).....
Look...teams play 11 on 11.....and if you go man to man, then every single player is on an island....including your CB's. If you give them help, say sending 2 safeties over the top like you suggest, then you've just left 2 large openings elsewhere that a good QB can exploit(ala Palmer)....so, put the safeties up top and watch them run all over us and din and dunk us to death...(then we can complain about run stopping and getting crushed by the screen).....
The real problem(on the Armonty play, for example) is that many of our players are one dimensional(esp the LB's). They CANT cover, but its their job anyway. Shame on the coaches for asking these guys to do their jobs and not make a million mental errors while they're at it....we cant just offer help to every player who is out manned....so, on any given play....with any team....on any sunday.....there are mismatches on the field and it's upto the players to win their matches and each team to win their mismatch...
So....on that particular blitz....we sent a Safety and a corner, hoping to create a mismatch, and therefore, get a sack...thats what blitzes are(sending an extra man or 2).....and that left Armonty to cover.....and the other team saw that and won the mismatch.....had we gotten the sack?, no one would be talking about that coverage or even be aware of it ftm....and that happens on every blitz. so lets not keep cherry picking the one we got burned on and calling it a bad scheme...its just a freaking blitz, for christ sake..
So.....I guess Id accept another D coordinator, if a QUALITY one is available....but guess what, even with a new Coordinator, we still have the same players being asked to execute and win their matches......and Armonty and Kruger will STILL be incapable of pass coverage(something that all LB's are expected to do).....and blitz packages will still require extra bodies and leave a glaring weakness somewhere on the field....
I see what you're saying, as there will often be times players are asked to be on islands, or be in coverage the opponent doesn't expect, but we aren't a good blitzing team. In fact, we may be the worst blitzing team I can remember seeing in a while. And sure, if we sacked the QB, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but we have 16 (or so) sacks this season, and I believe 7 or 8 of those came against a rookie QB. We have games where we basically don't even TOUCH the opposition's QB, and that's very frustrating.
And your point about having the same players next year isn't something I totally agree with. We had very similar personnel last season, in fact, almost ALL the same, and we were much better. Yeah, we were awful against the run, but we were pretty good against the pass. So if we have the same players in the same system, why aren't they playing at the same level? Maybe the injuries, but probably because opponents have scouted us to death, and know exactly what the weaknesses are. We aren't adjusting, we aren't playing with discipline, and we simply aren't making plays.
I see what you're saying, as there will often be times players are asked to be on islands, or be in coverage the opponent doesn't expect, but we aren't a good blitzing team. In fact, we may be the worst blitzing team I can remember seeing in a while. And sure, if we sacked the QB, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but we have 16 (or so) sacks this season, and I believe 7 or 8 of those came against a rookie QB. We have games where we basically don't even TOUCH the opposition's QB, and that's very frustrating.
So if we have the same players in the same system, why aren't they playing at the same level? Maybe the injuries, but probably because opponents have scouted us to death, and know exactly what the weaknesses are. We aren't adjusting, we aren't playing with discipline, and we simply aren't making plays.
So your point is what???......that we shouldnt blitz or rush the QB, maybe just stop that stuff all together?......BRILLIANT
In your words....we have the same players & same system that we had success with last year.....YET, when they dont play well, the obvious answer is scrap the system?.....didnt you just get done saying it worked last year?......
Last year we had the #1 pass defense in the league.....and only 8 games later you all say scrap the system....fire be the coach....yada yada yada....
Think about this.....we also had 3 out 4 DB's in the pro-bowl, right?......Remember our pro-bowl safety, the one who led the league in interceptions?....he blew out a knee and has not returned to form....PLUS, he's missed a bunch of games with new injuries......Remember our pro-bowl CB Joe Haden.....mr lock down....he's missed almost the entire season with injuries and has played VERY poorly when in.......Donte Whitner also has played injured and missed games....as well as Jordon Poyer, who is SUPPOSED to be backing these guys up......
so when you take 3 Pro bowlers out of the equation, does it make sense to blame the poor play on the COACH??? ...or his system???
And, I will add, that the #1 pass defense(which we had last year) REALLY adds to our ability to rush the passer. If no one is open, then the QB holds the ball a bit longer, which allows our average pass rush guys to get to the QB.....BUT, if the pass defense breaks down, then any decent QB is gonna get the ball out faster.....completing more passes, while diminishing the pass rush and number of sacks....
Plus, when you have the best group of DB's in league, but your team is one of the worst at stopping the run.....do you sent your extra help to the DB's or do you load up to stop the run?......cause we cant do both....
So, with all this in mind....isnt it POSSIBLE.....that the poor play of Joe Haden and Tashau Gipson, coupled with the extensive DB injury list, has MORE to do with the defensive breakdowns, than the coaching or the system?......because THAT is what has changed from last year...the personnel and their individual performances....(not the scheme or approach)
And what about Kruger, Mingo and the rest of the guys crying because they are being used differently or asked to cover?......to me, different means "adjustments".....So, I ask you AGAIN....is it possible we are asking people to cover(who usually dont), as a way to get help to where it's needed?.....isnt switching guys around, a way to "try" to stop the bleeding or adjust to cover the weaknesses??.......and if that is so, why say they aren;t making adjustments when they OBVIOUSLY are????
I think if our DB's were up to snuff (ala last year), we'd be seeing MUCH better defense.....and a MUCH better pass rush....and the "scheme" wouldnt even be in the discussion.....
The team needs better talent....more versatile talent.....and better execution....Without those 3 things, you can scheme till the cows come home and it wont make any difference.....zip nada none...
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Mudfly...not sure why you get so animated.
The NFL is all about making adjustments. So if our talent was adequate two years ago, just what has changed? Is it that other teams are now emulating the teams that had success against us, and now we are struggling to combat that? While not stellar, it seemed that our pass rush was better last year, so why did that change? Yes, we've had injuries, but that happens to most teams every year. So is it Farmer's responsibility to have the team better stocked, or is it Pettine's fault for not preparing them better?
There is something wrong with our scheme, especially against the run. It's been talked about on several articles, as our players have said things like "we aren't sure what to do", and "imagine trying to define mud." Our players aren't always sure what gap to attack, and when there is indecision, the players aren't attacking as quickly as they should be. I see your point about the injuries to our pass defense. Losing Haden, Whitner, Williams, and Gipson is a lot for any team to shoulder, but why is the run defense STILL so awful? If it was awful last year, worse this year, and our players are about the same...is it just because we lack talent, or is there a way to schematically make it better? For example, Pettine was groomed by Rex Ryan. Ryan has about the most expensive defensive line in the league, and it's full of talent, yet they give up 24 points a game. I understand that the DL is one component of a defense, but Rex runs a similar system, and they're giving up a bunch of points. So isn't that proof that maybe it's time to make SOME kind of philosophical change on defense?
You can't blame the coach for injuries, that's just ridiculous. What really worries me is that the defense is seriously flawed, but nobody really seems to know WHY. Pettine himself has said he's scratching his head in regard to the chunk plays and the poor play. There really isn't one thing you can point to and say, "AHA! This is the problem we must fix!" The players are confused and unsure of assignments. They have said they don't feel like they are put into position to succeed. I believe on any losing team there will be some degree of bellyaching, and it's much easier to blame the coach than to look in the mirror and say "It's my fault."
I'm not saying we need to reinvent the wheel or anything, but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Maybe you're right...maybe it IS a severe talent deficiency, but the NFL, more than any other professional sport, promotes parity. Our talent simply can't be that far off.
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Mudfly...not sure why you get so animated.
The NFL is all about making adjustments. So if our talent was adequate two years ago, just what has changed? Is it that other teams are now emulating the teams that had success against us, and now we are struggling to combat that? While not stellar, it seemed that our pass rush was better last year, so why did that change? Yes, we've had injuries, but that happens to most teams every year. So is it Farmer's responsibility to have the team better stocked, or is it Pettine's fault for not preparing them better?
There is something wrong with our scheme, especially against the run. It's been talked about on several articles, as our players have said things like "we aren't sure what to do", and "imagine trying to define mud." Our players aren't always sure what gap to attack, and when there is indecision, the players aren't attacking as quickly as they should be. I see your point about the injuries to our pass defense. Losing Haden, Whitner, Williams, and Gipson is a lot for any team to shoulder, but why is the run defense STILL so awful? If it was awful last year, worse this year, and our players are about the same...is it just because we lack talent, or is there a way to schematically make it better? For example, Pettine was groomed by Rex Ryan. Ryan has about the most expensive defensive line in the league, and it's full of talent, yet they give up 24 points a game. I understand that the DL is one component of a defense, but Rex runs a similar system, and they're giving up a bunch of points. So isn't that proof that maybe it's time to make SOME kind of philosophical change on defense?
You can't blame the coach for injuries, that's just ridiculous. What really worries me is that the defense is seriously flawed, but nobody really seems to know WHY. Pettine himself has said he's scratching his head in regard to the chunk plays and the poor play. There really isn't one thing you can point to and say, "AHA! This is the problem we must fix!" The players are confused and unsure of assignments. They have said they don't feel like they are put into position to succeed. I believe on any losing team there will be some degree of bellyaching, and it's much easier to blame the coach than to look in the mirror and say "It's my fault."
I'm not saying we need to reinvent the wheel or anything, but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Maybe you're right...maybe it IS a severe talent deficiency, but the NFL, more than any other professional sport, promotes parity. Our talent simply can't be that far off.
Mudfly...not sure why you get so animated.
Animated?.....not sure what that means, as Ive always thought I was one of the more reasonable posters.....just trying to respondto your many many long long comments.....unless, of course you dont want discussion or counter points and would rather just be blah blah blah....
The NFL is all about making adjustments. So if our talent was adequate two years ago, just what has changed?
Im certainly not convinced it was adequate.....we were 4-12 if you remember......
While not stellar, it seemed that our pass rush was better last year, so why did that change?
I just gave you a very convincing argument on why it changed(at least my perspective)....no need for me to do it again.....
Yes, we've had injuries, but that happens to most teams every year.
Yes it does. And when teams lose their better players, they usually experience diminished results and performance from those who fill in. We are no different.
So is it Farmer's responsibility to have the team better stocked, or is it Pettine's fault for not preparing them better?
Yes it is. And he gets 7 picks a year, plus whatever FA's are out there. So, in 2 years, he has replaced about 40 out of 53 players in an attempt to get better. But, I dont know of many GM's that can completely flip a less than average roster into a great roster in 2 seasons.....
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There is something wrong with our scheme, especially against the run. It's been talked about on several articles, as our players have said things like "we aren't sure what to do", and "imagine trying to define mud." Our players aren't always sure what gap to attack, and when there is indecision, the players aren't attacking as quickly as they should be.
You mean our LB's, dont you?...If they dont know where to go, maybe they arent paying attention. They sure didnt say this last year and the only ones saying it now are the guys who cant get it done....basically Kruger & Mingo. Watch them play....its not scheme thats causing them to miss tackle after tackle and, basically, get owned on every play....its talent, execution and effort....
I see your point about the injuries to our pass defense. Losing Haden, Whitner, Williams, and Gipson is a lot for any team to shoulder, but why is the run defense STILL so awful? If it was awful last year, worse this year, and our players are about the same...is it just because we lack talent, or is there a way to schematically make it better?
Here's an example....our DB's are hurting and the back ups(Bademosi, Poyer, Desir, etc) are getting beat. So.....we gotta adjust to get them help. That means a LB might have to cover....or a safety might stay back an extra couple of seconds....and that takes away from the rush defense. And that works both ways....we bring guys up(like we did last year) and it leaves the CB's alone(which you were complaining about in a previous post).....Technically, our run isnt worse this year(it's about the same actually), but we dont have the pass D we had last year.....and finally...YES...right now, it looks to me like we lack the talent to be a solid defense.....great LB's can cover, rush or play the run.......good LB's can do at least 2 of those things.....our LB's mostly do one thing....so they are exposed and not happy about it....so, a guy like Kruger, who only knows how to rush, is gonna complain that the coaches are putting him in position to fail, because they've asked him to play the run or cover a TE.....thats on Kruger, not the Coaches....
For example, Pettine was groomed by Rex Ryan. Ryan has about the most expensive defensive line in the league, and it's full of talent, yet they give up 24 points a game. I understand that the DL is one component of a defense, but Rex runs a similar system, and they're giving up a bunch of points. So isn't that proof that maybe it's time to make SOME kind of philosophical change on defense?
Wait....what???.....because Pettine is from the Ryan tree and Ryans D isnt doing well this year, that is proof that Pettine needs to change his philosophy??.......thats a crazy argument....so, no....Ryans team isnt proof of anything here....2 separate unrelated entities....
You can't blame the coach for injuries, that's just ridiculous. What really worries me is that the defense is seriously flawed, but nobody really seems to know WHY.
And you do?......and since no one knows, we'll just fire the DC and change the philosophy we've been successful with?.....again....you're not making much sense here(honestly)...
Pettine himself has said he's scratching his head in regard to the chunk plays and the poor play. There really isn't one thing you can point to and say, "AHA! This is the problem we must fix!"
Thats because it isnt one thing....and thats what Pettine has been saying. One game its the run D....another game its penalties.....we stop the run perfectly for 2 qtrs, then allow it to blow up in the third.....so every game, when they review film, its something new....someone missing their spot....someone getting a penalty....etc etc.....if it was just one thing, it would be fixed by now.....
and it's much easier to blame the coach than to look in the mirror and say "It's my fault."
There it is....and the guys belly aching only started recently....when THEIR play was being questioned....and unlike those players, Pettine is actually willing to stand up and say "I and WE have to get better"....but guys like Kruger aint saying that....and if they cant accept they need to play better and i they cant buy into the system, then how will that work out???
I'm not saying we need to reinvent the wheel or anything, but the definition of insanity is doing the same , thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Again....I see us making adjustments.....but when we do, everyone starts crying why are we doing that??.... And if you have an extended history of success within a system, why would you change it and go to something you dont have faith in?.....when you do something over and over with other players and get GOOD results, then do you change it the second it doesnt work?.....or stick with what you know works until they get it right?
Maybe you're right...maybe it IS a severe talent deficiency, but the NFL, more than any other professional sport, promotes parity.
Ha...NFL promotes parity, which means all teams have equal talent?.......I dont think so....
Ill say it again....we need better players and we need our DB's back.....Armonty, Mingo & Kruger are not high caliber LB's and wouldnt even start on most other teams(and LB is the heart of any defense).....We also replaced 1/2 of our D line this year, which is a sign the FO doent think the talent was there either....they took a step in the right direction, but w/o help from the LB's, you cant stop the run....period....And if the LB's cant cover anyone either(w/o crying), then you cant stop the pass either....
So....like I said way way earlier......changing the DC and/or scheme probably will not get you much better results..... add some talent at LB and get our DB's back and things will change for the better....
And dump those guys who are bucking the system and pointing fingersbecause they are counter productive to what the team is trying to accomplish....if they aren't gonna buy into the system, then there is ZERO chance they will improve.
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TLDR...
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Mudfly...not sure why you get so animated.
Animated?.....not sure what that means, as Ive always thought I was one of the more reasonable posters.....just trying to respondto your many many long long comments.....unless, of course you dont want discussion or counter points and would rather just be blah blah blah....
The NFL is all about making adjustments. So if our talent was adequate two years ago, just what has changed?
Im certainly not convinced it was adequate.....we were 4-12 if you remember......
While not stellar, it seemed that our pass rush was better last year, so why did that change?
I just gave you a very convincing argument on why it changed(at least my perspective)....no need for me to do it again.....
Yes, we've had injuries, but that happens to most teams every year.
Yes it does. And when teams lose their better players, they usually experience diminished results and performance from those who fill in. We are no different.
So is it Farmer's responsibility to have the team better stocked, or is it Pettine's fault for not preparing them better?
Yes it is. And he gets 7 picks a year, plus whatever FA's are out there. So, in 2 years, he has replaced about 40 out of 53 players in an attempt to get better. But, I dont know of many GM's that can completely flip a less than average roster into a great roster in 2 seasons.....
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There is something wrong with our scheme, especially against the run. It's been talked about on several articles, as our players have said things like "we aren't sure what to do", and "imagine trying to define mud." Our players aren't always sure what gap to attack, and when there is indecision, the players aren't attacking as quickly as they should be.
You mean our LB's, dont you?...If they dont know where to go, maybe they arent paying attention. They sure didnt say this last year and the only ones saying it now are the guys who cant get it done....basically Kruger & Mingo. Watch them play....its not scheme thats causing them to miss tackle after tackle and, basically, get owned on every play....its talent, execution and effort....
I see your point about the injuries to our pass defense. Losing Haden, Whitner, Williams, and Gipson is a lot for any team to shoulder, but why is the run defense STILL so awful? If it was awful last year, worse this year, and our players are about the same...is it just because we lack talent, or is there a way to schematically make it better?
Here's an example....our DB's are hurting and the back ups(Bademosi, Poyer, Desir, etc) are getting beat. So.....we gotta adjust to get them help. That means a LB might have to cover....or a safety might stay back an extra couple of seconds....and that takes away from the rush defense. And that works both ways....we bring guys up(like we did last year) and it leaves the CB's alone(which you were complaining about in a previous post).....Technically, our run isnt worse this year(it's about the same actually), but we dont have the pass D we had last year.....and finally...YES...right now, it looks to me like we lack the talent to be a solid defense.....great LB's can cover, rush or play the run.......good LB's can do at least 2 of those things.....our LB's mostly do one thing....so they are exposed and not happy about it....so, a guy like Kruger, who only knows how to rush, is gonna complain that the coaches are putting him in position to fail, because they've asked him to play the run or cover a TE.....thats on Kruger, not the Coaches....
For example, Pettine was groomed by Rex Ryan. Ryan has about the most expensive defensive line in the league, and it's full of talent, yet they give up 24 points a game. I understand that the DL is one component of a defense, but Rex runs a similar system, and they're giving up a bunch of points. So isn't that proof that maybe it's time to make SOME kind of philosophical change on defense?
Wait....what???.....because Pettine is from the Ryan tree and Ryans D isnt doing well this year, that is proof that Pettine needs to change his philosophy??.......thats a crazy argument....so, no....Ryans team isnt proof of anything here....2 separate unrelated entities....
You can't blame the coach for injuries, that's just ridiculous. What really worries me is that the defense is seriously flawed, but nobody really seems to know WHY.
And you do?......and since no one knows, we'll just fire the DC and change the philosophy we've been successful with?.....again....you're not making much sense here(honestly)...
Pettine himself has said he's scratching his head in regard to the chunk plays and the poor play. There really isn't one thing you can point to and say, "AHA! This is the problem we must fix!"
Thats because it isnt one thing....and thats what Pettine has been saying. One game its the run D....another game its penalties.....we stop the run perfectly for 2 qtrs, then allow it to blow up in the third.....so every game, when they review film, its something new....someone missing their spot....someone getting a penalty....etc etc.....if it was just one thing, it would be fixed by now.....
and it's much easier to blame the coach than to look in the mirror and say "It's my fault."
There it is....and the guys belly aching only started recently....when THEIR play was being questioned....and unlike those players, Pettine is actually willing to stand up and say "I and WE have to get better"....but guys like Kruger aint saying that....and if they cant accept they need to play better and i they cant buy into the system, then how will that work out???
I'm not saying we need to reinvent the wheel or anything, but the definition of insanity is doing the same , thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Again....I see us making adjustments.....but when we do, everyone starts crying why are we doing that??.... And if you have an extended history of success within a system, why would you change it and go to something you dont have faith in?.....when you do something over and over with other players and get GOOD results, then do you change it the second it doesnt work?.....or stick with what you know works until they get it right?
Maybe you're right...maybe it IS a severe talent deficiency, but the NFL, more than any other professional sport, promotes parity.
Ha...NFL promotes parity, which means all teams have equal talent?.......I dont think so....
Ill say it again....we need better players and we need our DB's back.....Armonty, Mingo & Kruger are not high caliber LB's and wouldnt even start on most other teams(and LB is the heart of any defense).....We also replaced 1/2 of our D line this year, which is a sign the FO doent think the talent was there either....they took a step in the right direction, but w/o help from the LB's, you cant stop the run....period....And if the LB's cant cover anyone either(w/o crying), then you cant stop the pass either....
So....like I said way way earlier......changing the DC and/or scheme probably will not get you much better results..... add some talent at LB and get our DB's back and things will change for the better....
And dump those guys who are bucking the system and pointing fingersbecause they are counter productive to what the team is trying to accomplish....if they aren't gonna buy into the system, then there is ZERO chance they will improve.
Mudfly...not sure why you get so animated.
Animated?.....not sure what that means, as Ive always thought I was one of the more reasonable posters.....just trying to respondto your many many long long comments.....unless, of course you dont want discussion or counter points and would rather just be blah blah blah....
The NFL is all about making adjustments. So if our talent was adequate two years ago, just what has changed?
Im certainly not convinced it was adequate.....we were 4-12 if you remember......
While not stellar, it seemed that our pass rush was better last year, so why did that change?
I just gave you a very convincing argument on why it changed(at least my perspective)....no need for me to do it again.....
Yes, we've had injuries, but that happens to most teams every year.
Yes it does. And when teams lose their better players, they usually experience diminished results and performance from those who fill in. We are no different.
So is it Farmer's responsibility to have the team better stocked, or is it Pettine's fault for not preparing them better?
Yes it is. And he gets 7 picks a year, plus whatever FA's are out there. So, in 2 years, he has replaced about 40 out of 53 players in an attempt to get better. But, I dont know of many GM's that can completely flip a less than average roster into a great roster in 2 seasons.....
.
There is something wrong with our scheme, especially against the run. It's been talked about on several articles, as our players have said things like "we aren't sure what to do", and "imagine trying to define mud." Our players aren't always sure what gap to attack, and when there is indecision, the players aren't attacking as quickly as they should be.
You mean our LB's, dont you?...If they dont know where to go, maybe they arent paying attention. They sure didnt say this last year and the only ones saying it now are the guys who cant get it done....basically Kruger & Mingo. Watch them play....its not scheme thats causing them to miss tackle after tackle and, basically, get owned on every play....its talent, execution and effort....
I see your point about the injuries to our pass defense. Losing Haden, Whitner, Williams, and Gipson is a lot for any team to shoulder, but why is the run defense STILL so awful? If it was awful last year, worse this year, and our players are about the same...is it just because we lack talent, or is there a way to schematically make it better?
Here's an example....our DB's are hurting and the back ups(Bademosi, Poyer, Desir, etc) are getting beat. So.....we gotta adjust to get them help. That means a LB might have to cover....or a safety might stay back an extra couple of seconds....and that takes away from the rush defense. And that works both ways....we bring guys up(like we did last year) and it leaves the CB's alone(which you were complaining about in a previous post).....Technically, our run isnt worse this year(it's about the same actually), but we dont have the pass D we had last year.....and finally...YES...right now, it looks to me like we lack the talent to be a solid defense.....great LB's can cover, rush or play the run.......good LB's can do at least 2 of those things.....our LB's mostly do one thing....so they are exposed and not happy about it....so, a guy like Kruger, who only knows how to rush, is gonna complain that the coaches are putting him in position to fail, because they've asked him to play the run or cover a TE.....thats on Kruger, not the Coaches....
For example, Pettine was groomed by Rex Ryan. Ryan has about the most expensive defensive line in the league, and it's full of talent, yet they give up 24 points a game. I understand that the DL is one component of a defense, but Rex runs a similar system, and they're giving up a bunch of points. So isn't that proof that maybe it's time to make SOME kind of philosophical change on defense?
Wait....what???.....because Pettine is from the Ryan tree and Ryans D isnt doing well this year, that is proof that Pettine needs to change his philosophy??.......thats a crazy argument....so, no....Ryans team isnt proof of anything here....2 separate unrelated entities....
You can't blame the coach for injuries, that's just ridiculous. What really worries me is that the defense is seriously flawed, but nobody really seems to know WHY.
And you do?......and since no one knows, we'll just fire the DC and change the philosophy we've been successful with?.....again....you're not making much sense here(honestly)...
Pettine himself has said he's scratching his head in regard to the chunk plays and the poor play. There really isn't one thing you can point to and say, "AHA! This is the problem we must fix!"
Thats because it isnt one thing....and thats what Pettine has been saying. One game its the run D....another game its penalties.....we stop the run perfectly for 2 qtrs, then allow it to blow up in the third.....so every game, when they review film, its something new....someone missing their spot....someone getting a penalty....etc etc.....if it was just one thing, it would be fixed by now.....
and it's much easier to blame the coach than to look in the mirror and say "It's my fault."
There it is....and the guys belly aching only started recently....when THEIR play was being questioned....and unlike those players, Pettine is actually willing to stand up and say "I and WE have to get better"....but guys like Kruger aint saying that....and if they cant accept they need to play better and i they cant buy into the system, then how will that work out???
I'm not saying we need to reinvent the wheel or anything, but the definition of insanity is doing the same , thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Again....I see us making adjustments.....but when we do, everyone starts crying why are we doing that??.... And if you have an extended history of success within a system, why would you change it and go to something you dont have faith in?.....when you do something over and over with other players and get GOOD results, then do you change it the second it doesnt work?.....or stick with what you know works until they get it right?
Maybe you're right...maybe it IS a severe talent deficiency, but the NFL, more than any other professional sport, promotes parity.
Ha...NFL promotes parity, which means all teams have equal talent?.......I dont think so....
Ill say it again....we need better players and we need our DB's back.....Armonty, Mingo & Kruger are not high caliber LB's and wouldnt even start on most other teams(and LB is the heart of any defense).....We also replaced 1/2 of our D line this year, which is a sign the FO doent think the talent was there either....they took a step in the right direction, but w/o help from the LB's, you cant stop the run....period....And if the LB's cant cover anyone either(w/o crying), then you cant stop the pass either....
So....like I said way way earlier......changing the DC and/or scheme probably will not get you much better results..... add some talent at LB and get our DB's back and things will change for the better....
And dump those guys who are bucking the system and pointing fingersbecause they are counter productive to what the team is trying to accomplish....if they aren't gonna buy into the system, then there is ZERO chance they will improve.
Pass rushers are among the most coveted positions in football, so simply "adding" talent would be nice, but not exactly the easiest thing to do. We drafted Nate Orchard for that reason, and by no means would I label the guy a bust after 10 games, but he certainly isn't blowing anyone's doors off. The poor play of our DB's might have some to do with our lack of pressure, but that can't account for every bit of our ineptitude. The so called "coverage sacks" certainly aren't happening for us, but neither are any other kind. For example, there were several sacks by Pittsburgh that happened almost immediately. How many of THOSE do we get? Can nobody on our team beat their counterpart a few times a game and come up with a big play? Did Kruger lose all of his talent in one year?
I think just about everyone on the planet will agree that we need more talent, but I stand by my point about the scheme being deficient. This isn't just me saying this, just today on our radio show a caller brought up this point and the hosts of our show, including a former NFL LB, said that Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, and Mike Pettine run similar defenses, and what do they have in common? Their defenses are terrible. Matt Wilhelm stated that in the NFL, like many things in life, will let you get away with things until the opposition catches up. He used the "read option" as an example, and you can probably throw in the "wild cat" as well. Schemes and philosophies will work until someone figures out how to best it, and then other teams will copy it. The NFL is a copycat league. Additionally, part of Pettine's scheme revolves around having corners play a bunch of press man coverage, and that style is somewhat nullified by the NFL's fondness of offense, and how the refs will officiate the game. That's why you see the pass interference calls, the defensive holdings...because our DB's know that they probably don't have help over the top, and if they give up the catch, it's going to go a long ways. So what do you do? You evolve. You adapt. You mold your game plan around the talent that you have, not the talent you wish you did, or what you had when you were healthy.
And back to your point about adding talent...we all WISH we had more talent, and what concerns a lot of fans is the fact that the guy we have in place tasked with finding this talent, hasn't exactly lit it up. His philosophy on how WR's aren't as valuable as other positions has certainly burned us. We missed out on the best WR class in recent memory, and then the next year we picked a guy in Mayle that was labeled by some draft niks as one of the worst picks in the entire draft. I'm not unrealistic, and Farmer has definitely found some diamonds in the rough, but he's missing on impact players, and that's what is really hurting us. But again, I have heard that it takes about 3 years to truly evaluate a draft, so using that mantra, perhaps it's too early to completely judge Farmer. Wouldn't it be great if we knew for a fact that our first rounders would work out? But we don't, and with Justin Gilbert being a healthy scratch at the #8 position, would you want to trust a super high pick to Farmer again? Is it fair to judge a GM after one perceived bust?
What really concerns the Browns fans I speak with is the direction our team is heading. It'd be one thing if we're losing close games, or our injuries are making one aspect of the game stick out, or we're making some kind of progress but can't get over the hump. But we've lost 13-15, and as you said, it's not just one thing. Terrible penalties, giving up huge runs, not getting off the field on 3rd down, getting burned by the deep ball, awful red zone offense, no running game, no pass rush, etc. We are in deep trouble as a franchise, and I don't think it's as easy as adding more talent. But obviously nobody knows. If you feel that the scheme is fine, that is your opinion and I respect that. But I think it's flawed, and it certainly isn't just me. Our radio hosts, our players, and some of the fans that called in all feel the same way. Our defensive coordinator stated in an interview that they will try to simplify some things over the bye week, who knows, maybe that'll help the team play faster. But we can't really change the talent we have right now. We have to play the hand that we're dealt.
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Mudfly...not sure why you get so animated.
Animated?.....not sure what that means, as Ive always thought I was one of the more reasonable posters.....just trying to respondto your many many long long comments.....unless, of course you dont want discussion or counter points and would rather just be blah blah blah....
The NFL is all about making adjustments. So if our talent was adequate two years ago, just what has changed?
Im certainly not convinced it was adequate.....we were 4-12 if you remember......
While not stellar, it seemed that our pass rush was better last year, so why did that change?
I just gave you a very convincing argument on why it changed(at least my perspective)....no need for me to do it again.....
Yes, we've had injuries, but that happens to most teams every year.
Yes it does. And when teams lose their better players, they usually experience diminished results and performance from those who fill in. We are no different.
So is it Farmer's responsibility to have the team better stocked, or is it Pettine's fault for not preparing them better?
Yes it is. And he gets 7 picks a year, plus whatever FA's are out there. So, in 2 years, he has replaced about 40 out of 53 players in an attempt to get better. But, I dont know of many GM's that can completely flip a less than average roster into a great roster in 2 seasons.....
.
There is something wrong with our scheme, especially against the run. It's been talked about on several articles, as our players have said things like "we aren't sure what to do", and "imagine trying to define mud." Our players aren't always sure what gap to attack, and when there is indecision, the players aren't attacking as quickly as they should be.
You mean our LB's, dont you?...If they dont know where to go, maybe they arent paying attention. They sure didnt say this last year and the only ones saying it now are the guys who cant get it done....basically Kruger & Mingo. Watch them play....its not scheme thats causing them to miss tackle after tackle and, basically, get owned on every play....its talent, execution and effort....
I see your point about the injuries to our pass defense. Losing Haden, Whitner, Williams, and Gipson is a lot for any team to shoulder, but why is the run defense STILL so awful? If it was awful last year, worse this year, and our players are about the same...is it just because we lack talent, or is there a way to schematically make it better?
Here's an example....our DB's are hurting and the back ups(Bademosi, Poyer, Desir, etc) are getting beat. So.....we gotta adjust to get them help. That means a LB might have to cover....or a safety might stay back an extra couple of seconds....and that takes away from the rush defense. And that works both ways....we bring guys up(like we did last year) and it leaves the CB's alone(which you were complaining about in a previous post).....Technically, our run isnt worse this year(it's about the same actually), but we dont have the pass D we had last year.....and finally...YES...right now, it looks to me like we lack the talent to be a solid defense.....great LB's can cover, rush or play the run.......good LB's can do at least 2 of those things.....our LB's mostly do one thing....so they are exposed and not happy about it....so, a guy like Kruger, who only knows how to rush, is gonna complain that the coaches are putting him in position to fail, because they've asked him to play the run or cover a TE.....thats on Kruger, not the Coaches....
For example, Pettine was groomed by Rex Ryan. Ryan has about the most expensive defensive line in the league, and it's full of talent, yet they give up 24 points a game. I understand that the DL is one component of a defense, but Rex runs a similar system, and they're giving up a bunch of points. So isn't that proof that maybe it's time to make SOME kind of philosophical change on defense?
Wait....what???.....because Pettine is from the Ryan tree and Ryans D isnt doing well this year, that is proof that Pettine needs to change his philosophy??.......thats a crazy argument....so, no....Ryans team isnt proof of anything here....2 separate unrelated entities....
You can't blame the coach for injuries, that's just ridiculous. What really worries me is that the defense is seriously flawed, but nobody really seems to know WHY.
And you do?......and since no one knows, we'll just fire the DC and change the philosophy we've been successful with?.....again....you're not making much sense here(honestly)...
Pettine himself has said he's scratching his head in regard to the chunk plays and the poor play. There really isn't one thing you can point to and say, "AHA! This is the problem we must fix!"
Thats because it isnt one thing....and thats what Pettine has been saying. One game its the run D....another game its penalties.....we stop the run perfectly for 2 qtrs, then allow it to blow up in the third.....so every game, when they review film, its something new....someone missing their spot....someone getting a penalty....etc etc.....if it was just one thing, it would be fixed by now.....
and it's much easier to blame the coach than to look in the mirror and say "It's my fault."
There it is....and the guys belly aching only started recently....when THEIR play was being questioned....and unlike those players, Pettine is actually willing to stand up and say "I and WE have to get better"....but guys like Kruger aint saying that....and if they cant accept they need to play better and i they cant buy into the system, then how will that work out???
I'm not saying we need to reinvent the wheel or anything, but the definition of insanity is doing the same , thing over and over and expecting a different result.
Again....I see us making adjustments.....but when we do, everyone starts crying why are we doing that??.... And if you have an extended history of success within a system, why would you change it and go to something you dont have faith in?.....when you do something over and over with other players and get GOOD results, then do you change it the second it doesnt work?.....or stick with what you know works until they get it right?
Maybe you're right...maybe it IS a severe talent deficiency, but the NFL, more than any other professional sport, promotes parity.
Ha...NFL promotes parity, which means all teams have equal talent?.......I dont think so....
Ill say it again....we need better players and we need our DB's back.....Armonty, Mingo & Kruger are not high caliber LB's and wouldnt even start on most other teams(and LB is the heart of any defense).....We also replaced 1/2 of our D line this year, which is a sign the FO doent think the talent was there either....they took a step in the right direction, but w/o help from the LB's, you cant stop the run....period....And if the LB's cant cover anyone either(w/o crying), then you cant stop the pass either....
So....like I said way way earlier......changing the DC and/or scheme probably will not get you much better results..... add some talent at LB and get our DB's back and things will change for the better....
And dump those guys who are bucking the system and pointing fingersbecause they are counter productive to what the team is trying to accomplish....if they aren't gonna buy into the system, then there is ZERO chance they will improve.
Pass rushers are among the most coveted positions in football, so simply "adding" talent would be nice, but not exactly the easiest thing to do. We drafted Nate Orchard for that reason, and by no means would I label the guy a bust after 10 games, but he certainly isn't blowing anyone's doors off. The poor play of our DB's might have some to do with our lack of pressure, but that can't account for every bit of our ineptitude. The so called "coverage sacks" certainly aren't happening for us, but neither are any other kind. For example, there were several sacks by Pittsburgh that happened almost immediately. How many of THOSE do we get? Can nobody on our team beat their counterpart a few times a game and come up with a big play? Did Kruger lose all of his talent in one year?
I think just about everyone on the planet will agree that we need more talent, but I stand by my point about the scheme being deficient. This isn't just me saying this, just today on our radio show a caller brought up this point and the hosts of our show, including a former NFL LB, said that Rex Ryan, Rob Ryan, and Mike Pettine run similar defenses, and what do they have in common? Their defenses are terrible. Matt Wilhelm stated that in the NFL, like many things in life, will let you get away with things until the opposition catches up. He used the "read option" as an example, and you can probably throw in the "wild cat" as well. Schemes and philosophies will work until someone figures out how to best it, and then other teams will copy it. The NFL is a copycat league. Additionally, part of Pettine's scheme revolves around having corners play a bunch of press man coverage, and that style is somewhat nullified by the NFL's fondness of offense, and how the refs will officiate the game. That's why you see the pass interference calls, the defensive holdings...because our DB's know that they probably don't have help over the top, and if they give up the catch, it's going to go a long ways. So what do you do? You evolve. You adapt. You mold your game plan around the talent that you have, not the talent you wish you did, or what you had when you were healthy.
And back to your point about adding talent...we all WISH we had more talent, and what concerns a lot of fans is the fact that the guy we have in place tasked with finding this talent, hasn't exactly lit it up. His philosophy on how WR's aren't as valuable as other positions has certainly burned us. We missed out on the best WR class in recent memory, and then the next year we picked a guy in Mayle that was labeled by some draft niks as one of the worst picks in the entire draft. I'm not unrealistic, and Farmer has definitely found some diamonds in the rough, but he's missing on impact players, and that's what is really hurting us. But again, I have heard that it takes about 3 years to truly evaluate a draft, so using that mantra, perhaps it's too early to completely judge Farmer. Wouldn't it be great if we knew for a fact that our first rounders would work out? But we don't, and with Justin Gilbert being a healthy scratch at the #8 position, would you want to trust a super high pick to Farmer again? Is it fair to judge a GM after one perceived bust?
What really concerns the Browns fans I speak with is the direction our team is heading. It'd be one thing if we're losing close games, or our injuries are making one aspect of the game stick out, or we're making some kind of progress but can't get over the hump. But we've lost 13-15, and as you said, it's not just one thing. Terrible penalties, giving up huge runs, not getting off the field on 3rd down, getting burned by the deep ball, awful red zone offense, no running game, no pass rush, etc. We are in deep trouble as a franchise, and I don't think it's as easy as adding more talent. But obviously nobody knows. If you feel that the scheme is fine, that is your opinion and I respect that. But I think it's flawed, and it certainly isn't just me. Our radio hosts, our players, and some of the fans that called in all feel the same way. Our defensive coordinator stated in an interview that they will try to simplify some things over the bye week, who knows, maybe that'll help the team play faster. But we can't really change the talent we have right now. We have to play the hand that we're dealt.
But we can't really change the talent we have right now. We have to play the hand that we're dealt.
....as does the coaching staff......
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One of our best chances to win comes this Monday. I'd be very surprised if we didn't play well (or at least better than we have been). Monday night, against the Ravens, and Johnny has time and plenty of practice reps as the starter. If we can score 7 instead of 3 (or none) in the red zone, I think we win. Like you said, we have to play the hand we're dealt. Let's play it well.
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