A Compromise to Change and Continuity
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I know, that's the thing...just where would these qualified coordinators come from? So you either get a washed up retread, or you take a gamble on an up and comer. ...
Our entire scheme is flawed, and that's being pointed out to us on a regular basis..... It's been stated before, but does anyone remember when O'Neil blitzed Campbell AND K'Waun Williams, which left Armonty Bryant covering Marvin Jones? Yeah...dumb.
As far as who is available, we'll have to wait and see who gets fired after the season.
defense is Pettine's baby, so basically he would be admitting that his entire scheme is a failure
Washed up retreads and up and comers are not proven coordinators.....so, lets be clear about that......and change for the sake of change is a bad idea, when there is no "proven" answer available....
And I cant agree the "scheme" is flawed, just because a bunch of fans think it is....I can only agree that our guys aren't executing it nearly as well as the players in NY and BUFF did.....And, with the right people, it IS proven to work and is working right now in other cities...the scheme works.....with the right players....
The Armonty play(which Im already sick of hearing about) is an example of folks picking one play and using it over and over again to try to make some kind of a point about the scheme, when it was really just an opposing team exposing the mismatch(that exists on almost every play, if you know where to look).....
Look...teams play 11 on 11.....and if you go man to man, then every single player is on an island....including your CB's. If you give them help, say sending 2 safeties over the top like you suggest, then you've just left 2 large openings elsewhere that a good QB can exploit(ala Palmer)....so, put the safeties up top and watch them run all over us and din and dunk us to death...(then we can complain about run stopping and getting crushed by the screen).....
The real problem(on the Armonty play, for example) is that many of our players are one dimensional(esp the LB's). They CANT cover, but its their job anyway. Shame on the coaches for asking these guys to do their jobs and not make a million mental errors while they're at it....we cant just offer help to every player who is out manned....so, on any given play....with any team....on any sunday.....there are mismatches on the field and it's upto the players to win their matches and each team to win their mismatch...
So....on that particular blitz....we sent a Safety and a corner, hoping to create a mismatch, and therefore, get a sack...thats what blitzes are(sending an extra man or 2).....and that left Armonty to cover.....and the other team saw that and won the mismatch.....had we gotten the sack?, no one would be talking about that coverage or even be aware of it ftm....and that happens on every blitz. so lets not keep cherry picking the one we got burned on and calling it a bad scheme...its just a freaking blitz, for christ sake..
So.....I guess Id accept another D coordinator, if a QUALITY one is available....but guess what, even with a new Coordinator, we still have the same players being asked to execute and win their matches......and Armonty and Kruger will STILL be incapable of pass coverage(something that all LB's are expected to do).....and blitz packages will still require extra bodies and leave a glaring weakness somewhere on the field....
Washed up retreads and up and comers are not proven coordinators.....so, lets be clear about that......and change for the sake of change is a bad idea, when there is no "proven" answer available....
That's my fear. Anybody we hire is most likely a rookie coach, and we've had plenty of that with Shurmer, Crennell, & Pettine.
Some guys need time to "get it," as a head coaching gig is such an upgrade from coordinator. While I'm not crazy about the slide under Pettine, bringing in another newbie to learn on the job and bring in another philosophy will almost certainly take time to gel. I think most of us don't want to hear and wait that it will take more time to "turn it around."
Pettine was 7-4, beating the Steelers and Bengals along the way. I'm willing to give him more time despite this season being a disaster.
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We keep missing on draft picks while teams drafting behind are having more success. Why was Gilbert inactive and a 6th round pick playing at Pittsburgh?
Farmer needs to draft better.
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I would qualify that. Farmer has to change his attitude about drafting skilled O players early or adios MF. Smurfs are great for getting long yardage, but absolute detriments in the red zone.
I would qualify that. Farmer has to change his attitude about drafting skilled O players early or adios MF. Smurfs are great for getting long yardage, but absolute detriments in the red zone.
I watched PG's video of Gordon's highlights- and it about made me ill. In the Red Zone, with Smurfs, you're taking away jump balls to the corner out of the game plan.
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I know, that's the thing...just where would these qualified coordinators come from? So you either get a washed up retread, or you take a gamble on an up and comer. ...
Our entire scheme is flawed, and that's being pointed out to us on a regular basis..... It's been stated before, but does anyone remember when O'Neil blitzed Campbell AND K'Waun Williams, which left Armonty Bryant covering Marvin Jones? Yeah...dumb.
As far as who is available, we'll have to wait and see who gets fired after the season.
defense is Pettine's baby, so basically he would be admitting that his entire scheme is a failure
Washed up retreads and up and comers are not proven coordinators.....so, lets be clear about that......and change for the sake of change is a bad idea, when there is no "proven" answer available....
And I cant agree the "scheme" is flawed, just because a bunch of fans think it is....I can only agree that our guys aren't executing it nearly as well as the players in NY and BUFF did.....And, with the right people, it IS proven to work and is working right now in other cities...the scheme works.....with the right players....
The Armonty play(which Im already sick of hearing about) is an example of folks picking one play and using it over and over again to try to make some kind of a point about the scheme, when it was really just an opposing team exposing the mismatch(that exists on almost every play, if you know where to look).....
Look...teams play 11 on 11.....and if you go man to man, then every single player is on an island....including your CB's. If you give them help, say sending 2 safeties over the top like you suggest, then you've just left 2 large openings elsewhere that a good QB can exploit(ala Palmer)....so, put the safeties up top and watch them run all over us and din and dunk us to death...(then we can complain about run stopping and getting crushed by the screen).....
The real problem(on the Armonty play, for example) is that many of our players are one dimensional(esp the LB's). They CANT cover, but its their job anyway. Shame on the coaches for asking these guys to do their jobs and not make a million mental errors while they're at it....we cant just offer help to every player who is out manned....so, on any given play....with any team....on any sunday.....there are mismatches on the field and it's upto the players to win their matches and each team to win their mismatch...
So....on that particular blitz....we sent a Safety and a corner, hoping to create a mismatch, and therefore, get a sack...thats what blitzes are(sending an extra man or 2).....and that left Armonty to cover.....and the other team saw that and won the mismatch.....had we gotten the sack?, no one would be talking about that coverage or even be aware of it ftm....and that happens on every blitz. so lets not keep cherry picking the one we got burned on and calling it a bad scheme...its just a freaking blitz, for christ sake..
So.....I guess Id accept another D coordinator, if a QUALITY one is available....but guess what, even with a new Coordinator, we still have the same players being asked to execute and win their matches......and Armonty and Kruger will STILL be incapable of pass coverage(something that all LB's are expected to do).....and blitz packages will still require extra bodies and leave a glaring weakness somewhere on the field....
The Armonty play(which Im already sick of hearing about) is an example of folks picking one play and using it over and over again to try to make some kind of a point about the scheme, when it was really just an opposing team exposing the mismatch(that exists on almost every play, if you know where to look)
It sure does. I was watching the Raiders/Steelers game and during the replay of an Amari Cooper TD, the guy in coverage? None other than Mr Facemask himself, LB Arthur Moats. I can also recall Cleveland LB Scott Fujita unsuccessfully trying to to cover RB Reggie Bush. The mismatches happen frequently, the only time it gets brought to the forefront is when a big play is involved. Good post Mud.
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Dick LeBeau.......at 77 years old he would be better than the pile of shit we have running the defense.
Ummm 77 year old Dick Lebeau in his first year with the Titans has taken their defense from 27th in 2014 to 5th in 2015Dick LeBeau.......at 77 years old he would be better than the pile of shit we have running the defense.
"You see the Rams are still thinking that they are playing Tony Dorsett" -Jim Brown 1978 -
Get Gregg Williams the DC out of St. Louis Rams before they move west. I am so tired of watching his D whack people like they did us. If he gets the right people in the right places he has HC potential. His price cant be bad & knows how to build a Defensive Front that beats the man in front of you.
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Get Gregg Williams the DC out of St. Louis Rams before they move west. I am so tired of watching his D whack people like they did us. If he gets the right people in the right places he has HC potential. His price cant be bad & knows how to build a Defensive Front that beats the man in front of you.
Get Gregg Williams the DC out of St. Louis Rams before they move west. I am so tired of watching his D whack people like they did us. If he gets the right people in the right places he has HC potential. His price cant be bad & knows how to build a Defensive Front that beats the man in front of you.
Having 4 first round draft picks on the DL helps too.
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
Get Gregg Williams the DC out of St. Louis Rams before they move west. I am so tired of watching his D whack people like they did us. If he gets the right people in the right places he has HC potential. His price cant be bad & knows how to build a Defensive Front that beats the man in front of you.
Having 4 first round draft picks on the DL helps too.
Having 4 first round draft picks on the DL helps too.
Williams no name DB's are taught & know how to whack & cover too. Williams did his job to get all 4 also. Shelton & Dez Bryant is a start. We yuck it up to stumble on a Bosa & a OLB our DB's may not have to cover to long at all. When the problem for 2 seasons has been we can't stop the run, Williams answer has always been Were going 4 up front & were coming after you. I welcome that change.
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I would rather see Pettine stay then Farmer
4 1st round picks and none of them are impact players
They said they wanted to build through the draft
Farmer's drafts have been AWEFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Ummm 77 year old Dick Lebeau in his first year with the Titans has taken their defense from 27th in 2014 to 5th in 2015Dick LeBeau.......at 77 years old he would be better than the pile of shit we have running the defense.
Ummm 77 year old Dick Lebeau in his first year with the Titans has taken their defense from 27th in 2014 to 5th in 2015
and they're 2-8. so i guess they shoulda drafted some OL along the way huh? cuz mariota didn't have time to scratch his balls let alone throw any tonite......dumbass.
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Ummm 77 year old Dick Lebeau in his first year with the Titans has taken their defense from 27th in 2014 to 5th in 2015
and they're 2-8. so i guess they shoulda drafted some OL along the way huh? cuz mariota didn't have time to scratch his balls let alone throw any tonite......dumbass.
and they're 2-8. so i guess they shoulda drafted some OL along the way huh? cuz mariota didn't have time to scratch his balls let alone throw any tonite......dumbass.
and he missed some wide open long passes when he did have time to look.
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From what I heard on the Browns Radio Show, nobody from the "Rex Ryan Tree" is really having great defensive success. I mean, the Bills have a pretty good defense, but it's not what many people thought it would be. Mario Williams has voiced his displeasure with the system on multiple occasions, and it primarily has to do with him not being granted the ability to rush the QB as much as he wants to. Pettine's scheme is flawed, and the proof is in the pudding. We have an expensive defense with veteran free agents and high draft picks, yet we yield no results. We were awful against the run last year, and this year I believe we're somehow worse. But the question is, why were we so good against the pass last year, only to be DREADFUL this season? What has changed? Sure, we had some injuries, but what team doesn't?
The most alarming part of all this failure, is the direction our team is going. We used to lose somewhat close games, and now we're just getting our collective asses whipped. Blowouts are not the norm in the NFL. You see a few each week, but seldom do you see one team get their ass handed to them on a platter multiple weeks in a row.
NFL Insider Adam Caplan was on our radio show yesterday, and he was asked about Pettine's future. He said he's definitely on the hot seat, and "something has to change". He didn't give specific details, but he said that it's obvious something has to change due to how poorly the defense is playing. He didn't have any answers as to why we are so bad against the run, and he wasn't a fan of using DL to cover people. He talked about the "Rex Ryan Tree", and how nobody from that group is having a whole lot of defensive success. It was a very informative interview, and I recommend it. He didn't slam our Browns, but he didn't sugarcoat it either.
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and he missed some wide open long passes when he did have time to look.
Yeah he did, which is uncharacteristic of his play. His accuracy is generally awesome, but he missed Delanie Walker on a stop and go move that would've been huge. You don't get many opportunities in the NFL for big plays, and when they present themselves, you have to cash in or you lose.
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My one real hope is that the coaching staff is adapting to the cba limits on player practice(so stupid) time and the reg season games are an extended form of preseason in order to see what you do have and what may work. Most rookies do not just step in and make a difference. They usually need special high intensity training that doesn't seem to be allowed anymore. I don't figure the coaches to be stupid either. Young and inexperienced yes. I hope they learn by mistakes and will come together as a solid unit. If we don't give them at least 3 years to get the team to winning ways.... SQUARE ONE!
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There's a big part of me that says "no matter what, Pettine and Farmer need a third year", as we've tried switching staff every year or two, and where has that gotten us? Perhaps they do need time to hone their craft, iron out the wrinkles, and work out the problems that have surfaced. We've been miserable for the better part of 17 years, what's another year of failure?
But...I'd be lying if I said that another year of these two didn't terrify me as well. Mainly because of the DIRECTION we are going. In my eyes, the Browns were a team that might usually lose, but you knew they'd come to play and it would probably be a close game. Now, we're just getting our ass whipped, and the scores aren't close anymore. Could we be doing the franchise a disservice by keeping everyone around for another year?
What really hurts is the fact we thought we were close last year. Hell, we were 7-4 and SOARING higher than we ever had. The wheels came off, we got zip from the QB position, and many people felt that we were a QB away from being competitive. All offseason, we heard about how we're going to stop the run, run the ball ourselves, "minimize the qb position", and play tough football. We constantly heard about our "elite OL", and our "elite secondary". What the hell happened?! Our secondary has been banged up, sure, but we've given up about 21 td's, and only picked off 6 passes! Not only can we not stop the run (aside from last week), but we can't get a run off before our back gets drilled 3 yards in the damn backfield.
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There's a big part of me that says "no matter what, Pettine and Farmer need a third year", as we've tried switching staff every year or two, and where has that gotten us? Perhaps they do need time to hone their craft, iron out the wrinkles, and work out the problems that have surfaced. We've been miserable for the better part of 17 years, what's another year of failure?
But...I'd be lying if I said that another year of these two didn't terrify me as well. Mainly because of the DIRECTION we are going. In my eyes, the Browns were a team that might usually lose, but you knew they'd come to play and it would probably be a close game. Now, we're just getting our ass whipped, and the scores aren't close anymore. Could we be doing the franchise a disservice by keeping everyone around for another year?
What really hurts is the fact we thought we were close last year. Hell, we were 7-4 and SOARING higher than we ever had. The wheels came off, we got zip from the QB position, and many people felt that we were a QB away from being competitive. All offseason, we heard about how we're going to stop the run, run the ball ourselves, "minimize the qb position", and play tough football. We constantly heard about our "elite OL", and our "elite secondary". What the hell happened?! Our secondary has been banged up, sure, but we've given up about 21 td's, and only picked off 6 passes! Not only can we not stop the run (aside from last week), but we can't get a run off before our back gets drilled 3 yards in the damn backfield.
There's a big part of me that says "no matter what, Pettine and Farmer need a third year", as we've tried switching staff every year or two, and where has that gotten us? Perhaps they do need time to hone their craft, iron out the wrinkles, and work out the problems that have surfaced. We've been miserable for the better part of 17 years, what's another year of failure?
But...I'd be lying if I said that another year of these two didn't terrify me as well. Mainly because of the DIRECTION we are going. In my eyes, the Browns were a team that might usually lose, but you knew they'd come to play and it would probably be a close game. Now, we're just getting our ass whipped, and the scores aren't close anymore. Could we be doing the franchise a disservice by keeping everyone around for another year?
What really hurts is the fact we thought we were close last year. Hell, we were 7-4 and SOARING higher than we ever had. The wheels came off, we got zip from the QB position, and many people felt that we were a QB away from being competitive. All offseason, we heard about how we're going to stop the run, run the ball ourselves, "minimize the qb position", and play tough football. We constantly heard about our "elite OL", and our "elite secondary". What the hell happened?! Our secondary has been banged up, sure, but we've given up about 21 td's, and only picked off 6 passes! Not only can we not stop the run (aside from last week), but we can't get a run off before our back gets drilled 3 yards in the damn backfield.
Check the 1st 3 or 4 years when noll took over the stealers. His wins were pretty scarce then. Is it the same thing? wish I knew that but I do know that there is only one way to find out.
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Washed up retreads and up and comers are not proven coordinators.....so, lets be clear about that......and change for the sake of change is a bad idea, when there is no "proven" answer available....
And I cant agree the "scheme" is flawed, just because a bunch of fans think it is....I can only agree that our guys aren't executing it nearly as well as the players in NY and BUFF did.....And, with the right people, it IS proven to work and is working right now in other cities...the scheme works.....with the right players....
The Armonty play(which Im already sick of hearing about) is an example of folks picking one play and using it over and over again to try to make some kind of a point about the scheme, when it was really just an opposing team exposing the mismatch(that exists on almost every play, if you know where to look).....
Look...teams play 11 on 11.....and if you go man to man, then every single player is on an island....including your CB's. If you give them help, say sending 2 safeties over the top like you suggest, then you've just left 2 large openings elsewhere that a good QB can exploit(ala Palmer)....so, put the safeties up top and watch them run all over us and din and dunk us to death...(then we can complain about run stopping and getting crushed by the screen).....
The real problem(on the Armonty play, for example) is that many of our players are one dimensional(esp the LB's). They CANT cover, but its their job anyway. Shame on the coaches for asking these guys to do their jobs and not make a million mental errors while they're at it....we cant just offer help to every player who is out manned....so, on any given play....with any team....on any sunday.....there are mismatches on the field and it's upto the players to win their matches and each team to win their mismatch...
So....on that particular blitz....we sent a Safety and a corner, hoping to create a mismatch, and therefore, get a sack...thats what blitzes are(sending an extra man or 2).....and that left Armonty to cover.....and the other team saw that and won the mismatch.....had we gotten the sack?, no one would be talking about that coverage or even be aware of it ftm....and that happens on every blitz. so lets not keep cherry picking the one we got burned on and calling it a bad scheme...its just a freaking blitz, for christ sake..
So.....I guess Id accept another D coordinator, if a QUALITY one is available....but guess what, even with a new Coordinator, we still have the same players being asked to execute and win their matches......and Armonty and Kruger will STILL be incapable of pass coverage(something that all LB's are expected to do).....and blitz packages will still require extra bodies and leave a glaring weakness somewhere on the field....
I see what you're saying, as there will often be times players are asked to be on islands, or be in coverage the opponent doesn't expect, but we aren't a good blitzing team. In fact, we may be the worst blitzing team I can remember seeing in a while. And sure, if we sacked the QB, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but we have 16 (or so) sacks this season, and I believe 7 or 8 of those came against a rookie QB. We have games where we basically don't even TOUCH the opposition's QB, and that's very frustrating.
And your point about having the same players next year isn't something I totally agree with. We had very similar personnel last season, in fact, almost ALL the same, and we were much better. Yeah, we were awful against the run, but we were pretty good against the pass. So if we have the same players in the same system, why aren't they playing at the same level? Maybe the injuries, but probably because opponents have scouted us to death, and know exactly what the weaknesses are. We aren't adjusting, we aren't playing with discipline, and we simply aren't making plays.
I see what you're saying, as there will often be times players are asked to be on islands, or be in coverage the opponent doesn't expect, but we aren't a good blitzing team. In fact, we may be the worst blitzing team I can remember seeing in a while. And sure, if we sacked the QB, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but we have 16 (or so) sacks this season, and I believe 7 or 8 of those came against a rookie QB. We have games where we basically don't even TOUCH the opposition's QB, and that's very frustrating.
So if we have the same players in the same system, why aren't they playing at the same level? Maybe the injuries, but probably because opponents have scouted us to death, and know exactly what the weaknesses are. We aren't adjusting, we aren't playing with discipline, and we simply aren't making plays.
So your point is what???......that we shouldnt blitz or rush the QB, maybe just stop that stuff all together?......BRILLIANT
In your words....we have the same players & same system that we had success with last year.....YET, when they dont play well, the obvious answer is scrap the system?.....didnt you just get done saying it worked last year?......
Last year we had the #1 pass defense in the league.....and only 8 games later you all say scrap the system....fire be the coach....yada yada yada....
Think about this.....we also had 3 out 4 DB's in the pro-bowl, right?......Remember our pro-bowl safety, the one who led the league in interceptions?....he blew out a knee and has not returned to form....PLUS, he's missed a bunch of games with new injuries......Remember our pro-bowl CB Joe Haden.....mr lock down....he's missed almost the entire season with injuries and has played VERY poorly when in.......Donte Whitner also has played injured and missed games....as well as Jordon Poyer, who is SUPPOSED to be backing these guys up......
so when you take 3 Pro bowlers out of the equation, does it make sense to blame the poor play on the COACH??? ...or his system???
And, I will add, that the #1 pass defense(which we had last year) REALLY adds to our ability to rush the passer. If no one is open, then the QB holds the ball a bit longer, which allows our average pass rush guys to get to the QB.....BUT, if the pass defense breaks down, then any decent QB is gonna get the ball out faster.....completing more passes, while diminishing the pass rush and number of sacks....
Plus, when you have the best group of DB's in league, but your team is one of the worst at stopping the run.....do you sent your extra help to the DB's or do you load up to stop the run?......cause we cant do both....
So, with all this in mind....isnt it POSSIBLE.....that the poor play of Joe Haden and Tashau Gipson, coupled with the extensive DB injury list, has MORE to do with the defensive breakdowns, than the coaching or the system?......because THAT is what has changed from last year...the personnel and their individual performances....(not the scheme or approach)
And what about Kruger, Mingo and the rest of the guys crying because they are being used differently or asked to cover?......to me, different means "adjustments".....So, I ask you AGAIN....is it possible we are asking people to cover(who usually dont), as a way to get help to where it's needed?.....isnt switching guys around, a way to "try" to stop the bleeding or adjust to cover the weaknesses??.......and if that is so, why say they aren;t making adjustments when they OBVIOUSLY are????
I think if our DB's were up to snuff (ala last year), we'd be seeing MUCH better defense.....and a MUCH better pass rush....and the "scheme" wouldnt even be in the discussion.....
The team needs better talent....more versatile talent.....and better execution....Without those 3 things, you can scheme till the cows come home and it wont make any difference.....zip nada none...
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Mudfly...not sure why you get so animated.
The NFL is all about making adjustments. So if our talent was adequate two years ago, just what has changed? Is it that other teams are now emulating the teams that had success against us, and now we are struggling to combat that? While not stellar, it seemed that our pass rush was better last year, so why did that change? Yes, we've had injuries, but that happens to most teams every year. So is it Farmer's responsibility to have the team better stocked, or is it Pettine's fault for not preparing them better?
There is something wrong with our scheme, especially against the run. It's been talked about on several articles, as our players have said things like "we aren't sure what to do", and "imagine trying to define mud." Our players aren't always sure what gap to attack, and when there is indecision, the players aren't attacking as quickly as they should be. I see your point about the injuries to our pass defense. Losing Haden, Whitner, Williams, and Gipson is a lot for any team to shoulder, but why is the run defense STILL so awful? If it was awful last year, worse this year, and our players are about the same...is it just because we lack talent, or is there a way to schematically make it better? For example, Pettine was groomed by Rex Ryan. Ryan has about the most expensive defensive line in the league, and it's full of talent, yet they give up 24 points a game. I understand that the DL is one component of a defense, but Rex runs a similar system, and they're giving up a bunch of points. So isn't that proof that maybe it's time to make SOME kind of philosophical change on defense?
You can't blame the coach for injuries, that's just ridiculous. What really worries me is that the defense is seriously flawed, but nobody really seems to know WHY. Pettine himself has said he's scratching his head in regard to the chunk plays and the poor play. There really isn't one thing you can point to and say, "AHA! This is the problem we must fix!" The players are confused and unsure of assignments. They have said they don't feel like they are put into position to succeed. I believe on any losing team there will be some degree of bellyaching, and it's much easier to blame the coach than to look in the mirror and say "It's my fault."
I'm not saying we need to reinvent the wheel or anything, but the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Maybe you're right...maybe it IS a severe talent deficiency, but the NFL, more than any other professional sport, promotes parity. Our talent simply can't be that far off.
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