Orchard covering Boldin
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I've been watching the Oak vs. Den game tonight and Khalil Mack doesn't drop into coverage. He has 3 sacks so far and rushes the passer or plays the run on every play. Just sayin.
Isn't Mack a defensive end / tackle? I thought we were only talking about LBs in coverage..
Isn't Mack a defensive end / tackle? I thought we were only talking about LBs in coverage..
No...he's an OLB....and a true 3 tool linebacker....and his team uses ALL the tools.....run stopper, coverage guy and pass rusher..
Looks like Mack ended up with 6 tackles 5 were sacks and no passes defended
He covers a bit more than our guys......Mack has dropped into coverage 71 times....Orchard 70....Kruger 56....Armonty 32
And Aldon Smith, the guy who's played opposite Mack, has only 28.....meaning Mack is their primary outside cover guy...
So.....still falling on deaf ears.....and, again, more proof that our guys are asked to do the same as everybody elses guys
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Isn't Mack a defensive end / tackle? I thought we were only talking about LBs in coverage..
No...he's an OLB....and a true 3 tool linebacker....and his team uses ALL the tools.....run stopper, coverage guy and pass rusher..
Looks like Mack ended up with 6 tackles 5 were sacks and no passes defended
He covers a bit more than our guys......Mack has dropped into coverage 71 times....Orchard 70....Kruger 56....Armonty 32
And Aldon Smith, the guy who's played opposite Mack, has only 28.....meaning Mack is their primary outside cover guy...
So.....still falling on deaf ears.....and, again, more proof that our guys are asked to do the same as everybody elses guys
Yet Mack has carded 776 snaps, while Orchard only has 358 and Kruger 539.No...he's an OLB....and a true 3 tool linebacker....and his team uses ALL the tools.....run stopper, coverage guy and pass rusher..
He covers a bit more than our guys......Mack has dropped into coverage 71 times....Orchard 70....Kruger 56....Armonty 32
And Aldon Smith, the guy who's played opposite Mack, has only 28.....meaning Mack is their primary outside cover guy...
So.....still falling on deaf ears.....and, again, more proof that our guys are asked to do the same as everybody elses guys
So...not exactly the same.their "primary outside cover guy" is in coverage on 10% of his snaps, while ours are in coverage 15 - 20%.
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Yet Mack has carded 776 snaps, while Orchard only has 358 and Kruger 539.No...he's an OLB....and a true 3 tool linebacker....and his team uses ALL the tools.....run stopper, coverage guy and pass rusher..
He covers a bit more than our guys......Mack has dropped into coverage 71 times....Orchard 70....Kruger 56....Armonty 32
And Aldon Smith, the guy who's played opposite Mack, has only 28.....meaning Mack is their primary outside cover guy...
So.....still falling on deaf ears.....and, again, more proof that our guys are asked to do the same as everybody elses guys
So...not exactly the same.their "primary outside cover guy" is in coverage on 10% of his snaps, while ours are in coverage 15 - 20%.
Yet Mack has carded 776 snaps, while Orchard only has 358 and Kruger 539.
So...not exactly the same.their "primary outside cover guy" is in coverage on 10% of his snaps, while ours are in coverage 15 - 20%.
Thats fair...but we dont play the same systems, etc.....so was really just a response to the claim that he dosnt cover....or that OLBs dont cover....
He should cover less anyway, because he actually "can" get to the QB and play the run. so he stays in the whole game....Kruger cant, so he sits A LOT, while Orchard or Mingo cover(cause he cant play all 3 downs, like Mack...hence the reason Mack gets hundreds more snaps.....
Plus, lets get real....comparing Kruger vs Mack is a ridiculous comparison to start with.....
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Also comparing Pettine and O'neil with Jack Del Rio and Ken Norton would be ridiculous.
They use their guys in places were they have a better chance to succeed. Our coaches seem to think their way will work with any player, regardless of the players ability.
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In a 3-4 typical defense the Jack OLB is primarily a pass rusher. That requires a physique that isn't ideal for pass coverage. I don't mind the occasional zone coverage for an OLB but it didn't look like Orchard or Armonty Bryant vs Cinci were in zone coverage. If there are so many receivers out there that you need to put an OLB in coverage than maybe we should be in a nickel defense or dime defense. It's all about mismatches and I don't see the sense in making the opposing offenses job easier. We don't run a 4-3 defense where the OLB is expected to cover more.
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I don't think they should rush every play, but I also don't think they should cover wr's either.
Cover the TE or the backs out of the backfield is fine, but not the best wr on the other team
Also even when the Raiders rushed only 3 guys, one of them was Mack. Mack wasn't covering a Wr at all today.
As for the different system, you are correct. They run a system that helps their players make plays. We don't do that.
We run a system that has us ranked last or very near last . And it seems like the coaches won't change their ways, even though the guys they have running the system, are not good at the system.
As for Brady Quinn saying stuff about our def, I have no reason to think he has ANY idea that he knows what he is talking about.
But when Jon Gruden says he has NO idea what the Browns defense is doing, I have to believe he DOES know what he's talking about
I guess we will just have to disagree.
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IIRC, the Browns were playing zone and Boldin ran a drag route on Orchard's side.
Yup...
No...he's an OLB....and a true 3 tool linebacker....and his team uses ALL the tools.....run stopper, coverage guy and pass rusher..
He covers a bit more than our guys......Mack has dropped into coverage 71 times....Orchard 70....Kruger 56....Armonty 32
And Aldon Smith, the guy who's played opposite Mack, has only 28.....meaning Mack is their primary outside cover guy...
So.....still falling on deaf ears.....and, again, more proof that our guys are asked to do the same as everybody elses guys
All those confusing facts... will you never stop?
Here's another one... excepting injury, Khalil is on field for every defensive snap the Raiders see.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
IIRC, the Browns were playing zone and Boldin ran a drag route on Orchard's side.
Yup...
No...he's an OLB....and a true 3 tool linebacker....and his team uses ALL the tools.....run stopper, coverage guy and pass rusher..
He covers a bit more than our guys......Mack has dropped into coverage 71 times....Orchard 70....Kruger 56....Armonty 32
And Aldon Smith, the guy who's played opposite Mack, has only 28.....meaning Mack is their primary outside cover guy...
So.....still falling on deaf ears.....and, again, more proof that our guys are asked to do the same as everybody elses guys
All those confusing facts... will you never stop?
Here's another one... excepting injury, Khalil is on field for every defensive snap the Raiders see.
Yup...
All those confusing facts... will you never stop?
Here's another one... excepting injury, Khalil is on field for every defensive snap the Raiders see.
Ha.....and just to see and, hopefully, settle it...I just found and watched the play again.....over and over....
1st down(following a punt)....and they have run personel with 2 wr, 2 te and a rb.....we counter with standard 3-4-4....
they break huddle and every man goes to the line, with the QB in an empty backfield....meaning 5 receiver set....
our guys adjust.....CB's take the wides.....inside backers take the TE's and orchard takes the slot(Kruger is rushing)....Gipson and Dansby play back 5 yards - spread and wait to play the ball.....
When snapped...Orchard looks to have first 5 yards of responsibility, with Gipsonright behind and coming up to play the ball...
To me.....defensed perfectly personnel wise and really the only option...which is why Brady Quinn comes off like a dumb ass.....didnt even see it was a 5 receiver set/////
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Shouldn't Gipson be playing the slot? He's a DB and the slot is a WR
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no...there are 5 options. he and Whit play the ball....if he's on the line, there is no one over the top and a small 5 yrd pass becomes an 80 yrd TD....and Orchard is left to do what?....he's just there to slow Boldin down, but they hit him inside 5 yards.....its not like Orchard was running down the field trying to cover this guy....sheesh....have you never watched football?.....
Honestly....if you guys just wanna hack at the coach, then do it...but at least TRY to find a valid argument
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Wouldn't it be a better scheme to have a pro-bowl safety playing against their best WR, in the slot, then a rookie pass rushing OLB?
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You know what....Im out....
Our defense kicked ass today....the team won because of it....the Linebackers had their best game of the year, including Orchard....they had 5 sacks and the most tackles in game yet this year.....
.......and all you want to do is hack away at the coach because of some off hand(and incorrect) comment by Brady Quinn.....and one play that made zero difference in the game...
Lame as it gets....have fun....learn something about football....it'll do ya good....
Ima go enjoy the win.....
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If you are going to continually play Paul Kruger then you are misusing them.
HA!....I couldnt agree more......
They've cut his snaps by about 30 per game and, for the first time, today Armonty played the most.....Kruger has 5 tackles and 2 sacks in the last 7 games....TODAY Armonty had 7 tackles and 2 sacks....one game...
HA!....I couldnt agree more......
They've cut his snaps by about 30 per game and, for the first time, today Armonty played the most.....Kruger has 5 tackles and 2 sacks in the last 7 games....TODAY Armonty had 7 tackles and 2 sacks....one game...
To be fair, SF is shit. You know I like Armonty, but the big game he had today had alot to do with how bad SF is. The Browns are not a team that are going to be dropping 10 sacks on even an avg team...as is evidenced by this season right?
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You know what....Im out....
Our defense kicked ass today....the team won because of it....the Linebackers had their best game of the year, including Orchard....they had 5 sacks and the most tackles in game yet this year.....
.......and all you want to do is hack away at the coach because of some off hand(and incorrect) comment by Brady Quinn.....and one play that made zero difference in the game...
Lame as it gets....have fun....learn something about football....it'll do ya good....
Ima go enjoy the win.....
You know what....Im out....
Our defense kicked ass today....the team won because of it....the Linebackers had their best game of the year, including Orchard....they had 5 sacks and the most tackles in game yet this year.....
.......and all you want to do is hack away at the coach because of some off hand(and incorrect) comment by Brady Quinn.....and one play that made zero difference in the game...
Lame as it gets....have fun....learn something about football....it'll do ya good....
Ima go enjoy the win.....
I think 24 points from the offense helped.
Prior to this game, San Fran was scoring 14.8 points per game.
I agree the defense performed better than they had been, but don't act like this game was hinged on a strong defensive performance. We held a bad team to 4 points less than what they averaged per game...a bad team that has had to travel east two weeks in a row.
If you want to defend the coaches, that's fine. But don't get butthurt when you're the only one.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
In a 3-4 typical defense the Jack OLB is primarily a pass rusher. That requires a physique that isn't ideal for pass coverage. I don't mind the occasional zone coverage for an OLB but it didn't look like Orchard or Armonty Bryant vs Cinci were in zone coverage. If there are so many receivers out there that you need to put an OLB in coverage than maybe we should be in a nickel defense or dime defense. It's all about mismatches and I don't see the sense in making the opposing offenses job easier. We don't run a 4-3 defense where the OLB is expected to cover more.
In a 3-4 typical defense the Jack OLB is primarily a pass rusher. That requires a physique that isn't ideal for pass coverage. I don't mind the occasional zone coverage for an OLB but it didn't look like Orchard or Armonty Bryant vs Cinci were in zone coverage. If there are so many receivers out there that you need to put an OLB in coverage than maybe we should be in a nickel defense or dime defense. It's all about mismatches and I don't see the sense in making the opposing offenses job easier. We don't run a 4-3 defense where the OLB is expected to cover more.
I agree with this. Although I've given up trying to figure out who the jack and who the will is in our scheme. I don't think Oneil even knows. And it's not like it's some kind of "brilliant subterfuge" as evidenced by the fact that nearly every time we've tried it, we've gotten BURNED! This started back in preseason when I saw Kruger try and run with a TE across the middle on a 3rd and 15 against Buffalo....they converted it because, well, Kruger isn't a pass covering linebacker.
Some of you know full well I was screaming last year about why do we have two jack's on the field at the same time with Kruger and Sheard. And when we continued to do it this year I was still besides myself, it opens up way too many mismatches. In a 3-4 your will OLB'er HAS to be a smaller cover type that is also a speed rushing threat. That is Mingo. And if they didn't like Mingo they should have gotten another like him. You protect that will OLB'er in the run game with the 5 tech on his side. THe Jack is expected to be able to hold up on his own because he's more or less a slightly smaller DE that is athletic enough to drop back in zone. This defense is all over the place with it's personnel setups, if it worked consistently i'd have no complaints. We won today and that's great, but it's more because we played the one team in the league that at least right now with are more bereft of talent than we are...injuries included though.
Quinn was right to question that matchup. If it happened because we got substitutions mixed up or someone couldn't come into the game...hey fine you do with what you got. But we know now this is a willful scheme thing with this defense because we've seen it a number of times this year. And it makes no sense. It doesn't work. It will not work, not this year or the year after. A 260+ pound man isn't going to "learn the scheme" better to track men across the field many of whom run legit 4.3's. We'd be laughing our balls off if someone put a DE on Benjamin.
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I don't think they should rush every play, but I also don't think they should cover wr's either.
Cover the TE or the backs out of the backfield is fine, but not the best wr on the other team
Also even when the Raiders rushed only 3 guys, one of them was Mack. Mack wasn't covering a Wr at all today.
As for the different system, you are correct. They run a system that helps their players make plays. We don't do that.
We run a system that has us ranked last or very near last . And it seems like the coaches won't change their ways, even though the guys they have running the system, are not good at the system.
As for Brady Quinn saying stuff about our def, I have no reason to think he has ANY idea that he knows what he is talking about.
But when Jon Gruden says he has NO idea what the Browns defense is doing, I have to believe he DOES know what he's talking about
I guess we will just have to disagree.
But when Jon Gruden says he has NO idea what the Browns defense is doing, I have to believe he DOES know what he's talking about
Yeah I think if he's befuddled than that says something. Isn't the Tampa 2 named after his 4-3 defense?
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You know what....Im out....
Our defense kicked ass today....the team won because of it....the Linebackers had their best game of the year, including Orchard....they had 5 sacks and the most tackles in game yet this year.....
.......and all you want to do is hack away at the coach because of some off hand(and incorrect) comment by Brady Quinn.....and one play that made zero difference in the game...
Lame as it gets....have fun....learn something about football....it'll do ya good....
Ima go enjoy the win.....
I think 24 points from the offense helped.
Prior to this game, San Fran was scoring 14.8 points per game.
I agree the defense performed better than they had been, but don't act like this game was hinged on a strong defensive performance. We held a bad team to 4 points less than what they averaged per game...a bad team that has had to travel east two weeks in a row.
If you want to defend the coaches, that's fine. But don't get butthurt when you're the only one.
I think 24 points from the offense helped.
Prior to this game, San Fran was scoring 14.8 points per game.
I agree the defense performed better than they had been, but don't act like this game was hinged on a strong defensive performance. We held a bad team to 4 points less than what they averaged per game...a bad team that has had to travel east two weeks in a row.
If you want to defend the coaches, that's fine. But don't get butthurt when you're the only one.
Q: Under Gabbert their scoring has been???
A: Up slightly to 17.3 ppg...
And SF's defense was averaging 24.3 ppg allowed... so don't pretend a strong offensive showing paved the way to victory.
As for being the only one... he's not. Mud's just the only one to put together detailed support cases on the defensive side... the kind of cases you enjoy making and debating.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
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