Lets look at the D.....last year/this year
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I'm not saying you're wrong buddy.
Ha....I get it.....and you're right....I would draft OLB early for sure.....and sign a couple too....
It's looking like Von Miller is gonna be UFA....so, if were are gonna have one of the highest paid in the league,,,,,.he would be a much better look than Kruger.....especially at that price........
Ha....I get it.....and you're right....I would draft OLB early for sure.....and sign a couple too....
It's looking like Von Miller is gonna be UFA....so, if were are gonna have one of the highest paid in the league,,,,,.he would be a much better look than Kruger.....especially at that price........
He may have improved a little, but is he not one of the most one dimensional OLBs around? I know when we drafted mingo the 'hope' was that he'd be a von miller style pass rush specialist.
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Great analysis, Mud. And your work in recent weeks to shut up the slogan rhetoric has been heroic.
It seems to me that you're arguing for some roster turnover.
Any ideas for bang-for-buck (not money-wise, but where the biggest improvements that could be made in the fewest moves) changes that you think would pay high dividends?
Great analysis, Mud. And your work in recent weeks to shut up the slogan rhetoric has been heroic.
It seems to me that you're arguing for some roster turnover.
Any ideas for bang-for-buck (not money-wise, but where the biggest improvements that could be made in the fewest moves) changes that you think would pay high dividends?
Yeah...I think talent trumps all....so, as usual, a few should go and we need some play makers.....
If it was me, I add OLB's and CB's....cause, in addition to the terrible play at OLB, I think Haden and Traymon will be needing more help.....Traymon will be another year older and was supposed to be the bridge to Gilbert....but we have to assume Gilbert isnt the guy....and Haden?....who knows if he'll be back or how good he will be?....
I think Mingo and Kruger are overpaid dead weight and would be my first choices on D to go.....
Next year, Id also start playing Campbell more, because he has a nose for the ball and I think he'll end up being an excellent safety.....and one that can stuff the run!
He may have improved a little, but is he not one of the most one dimensional OLBs around? I know when we drafted mingo the 'hope' was that he'd be a von miller style pass rush specialist.
Von is light years better than anybody we have....monster pass rusher AND run stopper....very very solid.....
Mingo...as much as I hoped he would figure it out, just doesnt seem to have it....he's great in pursuit, but never seals the deal by making the tackle....
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If we want OLB who can run and tackle, we should draft... OLB's who have demonstrated they can run and tackle.
A Bryant is a DE who can kinda run. Mingo is a guy with no position [not fast enough for safety, not big enough for LB] who makes up for it by barely being able to tackle.
It's like the coaches want to run the high school 5-2 and then wonder why people are open.
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Whatever analysis of this defense you may want to elicit......just let it be known:
Yesterday the Browns halted their NFL record of consecutive games giving up 24 or more points a game.
So...unless they play like that a couple of other times this year, I am not sold on how good they may be.
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Whatever analysis of this defense you may want to elicit......just let it be known:
Yesterday the Browns halted their NFL record of consecutive games giving up 24 or more points a game.
So...unless they play like that a couple of other times this year, I am not sold on how good they may be.
I am not sold on how good they may be.
Is anybody sold on this defense?......dont think so.....
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Great analysis, Mud. And your work in recent weeks to shut up the slogan rhetoric has been heroic.
It seems to me that you're arguing for some roster turnover.
Any ideas for bang-for-buck (not money-wise, but where the biggest improvements that could be made in the fewest moves) changes that you think would pay high dividends?
Great analysis, Mud. And your work in recent weeks to shut up the slogan rhetoric has been heroic.
I concur and with tour's cold (or cold hearted
) take on things it makes for some fine thought and discussion here. However even the most anti-JFF on here will have to admit that often times that little elf makes runs/throws multiple times a game that make you stand up and go, "Holy Shit!" And for my money that keeps the game really fun to watch, because you just can't predict when he is gonna do it (and neither can those chasing him). How much fun was it to watch him make a fool of a pro-bowler yesterday to the point that the guy had to retaliate against anyone in a Browns uniform out of the pure frustration of trying to kill that little fucker, but whiffing every time.
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Yes, thanks for putting that analysis together for us. It kind of supports my belief that you keep Pettine for another year. He couldn't control those injuries in the secondary, or in the receivers group. The talent-depleted secondary hurt the whole defense.
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Von is great in coverage too IIRC. Has also played both 4-3 and 3-4, in addition to 4-3 DE at A&M (the year he had 18 sacks).
But what's this about his FA status? Are the Broncos not going to resign him?
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Von is great in coverage too IIRC. Has also played both 4-3 and 3-4, in addition to 4-3 DE at A&M (the year he had 18 sacks).
But what's this about his FA status? Are the Broncos not going to resign him?
Von is great in coverage too IIRC. Has also played both 4-3 and 3-4, in addition to 4-3 DE at A&M (the year he had 18 sacks).
But what's this about his FA status? Are the Broncos not going to resign him?
Well....he is UFA.....but Im sure Denver will do all they can to sign him....just a pipe dream really.....
My theory is that, with the way this FO throws away money(Kruger and Bowe come to mind)....why not at least try to overpay some good players
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Ifo Ekpre-Olomu coming in next season with a healthy Haden and Gaines looked good last game.
I hate to be positive, but I think some of the problems with our defensive backs may already be solved internally... Gilbert notwithstanding.
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Miller is going to seek a Justin Houston deal. Is he worth that?
To retain him perhaps, but I have issues with that kind of FA money.
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Players who have had career years:
Barnidge, McCown, Benji, Schwartz, Greco, Hawkins, Kruger
Players who have had possibly the worst years of their entire careers:
Bowe, Tramon Williams, Kruger, Starks, Gipson, Haden
(offensive players bolded)
The career year players have nearly all been offensive, while we are getting less production from our defensive players than they had elsewhere or under different coaches. I don't see how you can credit Pettine with the success of a Barnidge, yet disregard the non-performance of a Williams.
For a defensive coach, we've had two terrible defensive years under him...while our offense has exceeded expectations. So he's either or a shitty defensive coach or a secret offensive mastermind.
Further, our GM went out and got guys solely to run his system, and those players haven't seen the field or haven't done shit. Yet they were players Pettine NEEDED to run his system. A coverage linebacker, check. A versatile defensive lineman, check. The top rated interior defensive lineman, check. The most talented cover corner, check. A veteran cover corner, check. And our defense is STILL bad.
You can try and pin the successes of Barnidge and McCown on Pettine, but I'm going to be more realistic and pin them on Flip, while the failures of Tramon, Kruger, and Starks are pinned on O'Neil.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Players who have had career years:
Barnidge, McCown, Benji, Schwartz, Greco, Hawkins, Kruger
Players who have had possibly the worst years of their entire careers:
Bowe, Tramon Williams, Kruger, Starks, Gipson, Haden
(offensive players bolded)
The career year players have nearly all been offensive, while we are getting less production from our defensive players than they had elsewhere or under different coaches. I don't see how you can credit Pettine with the success of a Barnidge, yet disregard the non-performance of a Williams.
For a defensive coach, we've had two terrible defensive years under him...while our offense has exceeded expectations. So he's either or a shitty defensive coach or a secret offensive mastermind.
Further, our GM went out and got guys solely to run his system, and those players haven't seen the field or haven't done shit. Yet they were players Pettine NEEDED to run his system. A coverage linebacker, check. A versatile defensive lineman, check. The top rated interior defensive lineman, check. The most talented cover corner, check. A veteran cover corner, check. And our defense is STILL bad.
You can try and pin the successes of Barnidge and McCown on Pettine, but I'm going to be more realistic and pin them on Flip, while the failures of Tramon, Kruger, and Starks are pinned on O'Neil.
Players who have had career years:
Barnidge, McCown, Benji, Schwartz, Greco, Hawkins, Kruger
Players who have had possibly the worst years of their entire careers:
Bowe, Tramon Williams, Kruger, Starks, Gipson, Haden
(offensive players bolded)
The career year players have nearly all been offensive, while we are getting less production from our defensive players than they had elsewhere or under different coaches. I don't see how you can credit Pettine with the success of a Barnidge, yet disregard the non-performance of a Williams.
For a defensive coach, we've had two terrible defensive years under him...while our offense has exceeded expectations. So he's either or a shitty defensive coach or a secret offensive mastermind.
Further, our GM went out and got guys solely to run his system, and those players haven't seen the field or haven't done shit. Yet they were players Pettine NEEDED to run his system. A coverage linebacker, check. A versatile defensive lineman, check. The top rated interior defensive lineman, check. The most talented cover corner, check. A veteran cover corner, check. And our defense is STILL bad.
You can try and pin the successes of Barnidge and McCown on Pettine, but I'm going to be more realistic and pin them on Flip, while the failures of Tramon, Kruger, and Starks are pinned on O'Neil.
Exactly how I feel as well-I wrote a longer thing in the "keep Pettine thread" but I honestly believe Pettine just got lucky with an easy schedule to start his career. He got exposed for what he is and despite having better talent on paper our defense has gotten way worse. I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it that way.
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Krugers one dimensional pass rushing skillset is not Oneils fault. He's been going around the corner the same way for 3 years.
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Players who have had career years:
Barnidge, McCown, Benji, Schwartz, Greco, Hawkins, Kruger
Players who have had possibly the worst years of their entire careers:
Bowe, Tramon Williams, Kruger, Starks, Gipson, Haden
(offensive players bolded)
The career year players have nearly all been offensive, while we are getting less production from our defensive players than they had elsewhere or under different coaches. I don't see how you can credit Pettine with the success of a Barnidge, yet disregard the non-performance of a Williams.
For a defensive coach, we've had two terrible defensive years under him...while our offense has exceeded expectations. So he's either or a shitty defensive coach or a secret offensive mastermind.
Further, our GM went out and got guys solely to run his system, and those players haven't seen the field or haven't done shit. Yet they were players Pettine NEEDED to run his system. A coverage linebacker, check. A versatile defensive lineman, check. The top rated interior defensive lineman, check. The most talented cover corner, check. A veteran cover corner, check. And our defense is STILL bad.
You can try and pin the successes of Barnidge and McCown on Pettine, but I'm going to be more realistic and pin them on Flip, while the failures of Tramon, Kruger, and Starks are pinned on O'Neil.
Players who have had career years:
Barnidge, McCown, Benji, Schwartz, Greco, Hawkins, Kruger
Players who have had possibly the worst years of their entire careers:
Bowe, Tramon Williams, Kruger, Starks, Gipson, Haden
(offensive players bolded)
The career year players have nearly all been offensive...except for Kruger(2014), Gipson(2014), Robertson(2014-15), D. Bryant(2014-15), Skrine(2014)....as well as Dansby, Whitner and Haden continuing to matching their All-Pro numbers....so that is 8 out of 11 starters right there...
Further, our GM went out and got guys solely to run his system, and those players haven't seen the field or haven't done shit.
Because 1/2 of them are shit.....plus a couple rookies who are green....
You can try and pin the successes of Barnidge and McCown on Pettine, but I'm going to be more realistic and pin them on Flip, while the failures of Tramon, Kruger, and Starks are pinned on O'Neil.
These players got posted yesterday as guys who have "failed"..."fallen off a cliff".....or "gotten worse under Pettine"....and the truth is you guys are wrong and haven't done the research.....this is basically made up stuff....
so, even though I know you'll ignore the facts, Ill post them one more time......
1) Kruger(who we all seem to agree isnt very good) has had his 2 best seasons ever under pettine.....
Under Harbaugh he = 3.5 sacks & 12 tackles....Chud = 4.5 sacks & 26 tackles....Pettine = 7.5 sacks & 26 tackles....
So....Krugers 2 best years ever were under Pettine.....and the numbers dont lie......so, there's one...
And please note that "this year", even though he sucks, he's still has BETTER #'s then he had under Harbaugh(Coach God)
2) Gipson......also had his best year(by far) under Pettine and, this year, has been injured(and recovering from knee surgery)...
Under Shurmur & Chud he = 0.3 ints & 4.7 tackles per game....Pettine = 0.4 ints & 5.3 tackles er game.....
So...even with the serious injuries, missed camps, etc....he STILL has better #'s under Pettine......there's two....
3) Traymon....yet another misnomer, as Traymon is stronger in every stat, than he was at GB......and he got these #'s playing a harder position.......
.............................PFF ......Catch %......QBR........TD's allwd..........Passes Def.....
GB..........................4.1..........65...............101............8..........................10%
CLE........................4.3..........53................86.............2...........................10%
So.......Traymon is stronger in EVERY stat............period..........thats 3...............
4) Starks....12 year vet(old) who came from a 4-3 and STILL has the same per snap numbers he had at Miami.....
He is playing fewer downs in a different system and has still increased his tackles from 1 every 22 snaps to 1 every 19....his hurries are exactly the same and his sacks have dropped by 0,01 per game(negligible).....
So...while I cant say he really got "better", he certaily didnt get worse either(or fall of a cliff, as JRB thinks)....same #'s exactly....
5) D. Bryant...I decided to include him, as he's ANOTHER player who's #'s went WAY up under Pettine......
With Oakland he = 2.5 sacks 31 tackles....Chud = 3.5 sacks 31 tackles.....Pettine = 5.0 sacks 38 tackles.....
So....yet another D player being maximized by this staff.....
Look....I get you guys(TCPO & jrb) want Pettine out....and I also get that you refuse to look at ANY of the stats, numbers or reasons that support the Coach....and Im more than willing to look at ANY viable arguments or stats that support your arguments,,,,,but Im not getting any....and when you DO post stuff....like above.....it's just made up(opinion), but supported by nothing....
and when I look it up, it proves out to be wrong....or just ridiculous.....like saying Bowe is Pettines fault, which is laughable....or claiming Haden had his worst season under Pettine(because he's missed the whole year due to injury).....or claiming Gipson had his worst year ever, when in fact it isnt his worst year AND he has had his best years since Pett(plus he's done it in spite of a damaged knee and concussion).....or claiming Traymon is worse, when CLEARLY he's not....or Starks....or Kruger.....
So....there are the numbers.....twist away....
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Players who have had career years:
Barnidge, McCown, Benji, Schwartz, Greco, Hawkins, Kruger
Players who have had possibly the worst years of their entire careers:
Bowe, Tramon Williams, Kruger, Starks, Gipson, Haden
(offensive players bolded)
The career year players have nearly all been offensive...except for Kruger(2014), Gipson(2014), Robertson(2014-15), D. Bryant(2014-15), Skrine(2014)....as well as Dansby, Whitner and Haden continuing to matching their All-Pro numbers....so that is 8 out of 11 starters right there...
Further, our GM went out and got guys solely to run his system, and those players haven't seen the field or haven't done shit.
Because 1/2 of them are shit.....plus a couple rookies who are green....
You can try and pin the successes of Barnidge and McCown on Pettine, but I'm going to be more realistic and pin them on Flip, while the failures of Tramon, Kruger, and Starks are pinned on O'Neil.
These players got posted yesterday as guys who have "failed"..."fallen off a cliff".....or "gotten worse under Pettine"....and the truth is you guys are wrong and haven't done the research.....this is basically made up stuff....
so, even though I know you'll ignore the facts, Ill post them one more time......
1) Kruger(who we all seem to agree isnt very good) has had his 2 best seasons ever under pettine.....
Under Harbaugh he = 3.5 sacks & 12 tackles....Chud = 4.5 sacks & 26 tackles....Pettine = 7.5 sacks & 26 tackles....
So....Krugers 2 best years ever were under Pettine.....and the numbers dont lie......so, there's one...
And please note that "this year", even though he sucks, he's still has BETTER #'s then he had under Harbaugh(Coach God)
2) Gipson......also had his best year(by far) under Pettine and, this year, has been injured(and recovering from knee surgery)...
Under Shurmur & Chud he = 0.3 ints & 4.7 tackles per game....Pettine = 0.4 ints & 5.3 tackles er game.....
So...even with the serious injuries, missed camps, etc....he STILL has better #'s under Pettine......there's two....
3) Traymon....yet another misnomer, as Traymon is stronger in every stat, than he was at GB......and he got these #'s playing a harder position.......
.............................PFF ......Catch %......QBR........TD's allwd..........Passes Def.....
GB..........................4.1..........65...............101............8..........................10%
CLE........................4.3..........53................86.............2...........................10%
So.......Traymon is stronger in EVERY stat............period..........thats 3...............
4) Starks....12 year vet(old) who came from a 4-3 and STILL has the same per snap numbers he had at Miami.....
He is playing fewer downs in a different system and has still increased his tackles from 1 every 22 snaps to 1 every 19....his hurries are exactly the same and his sacks have dropped by 0,01 per game(negligible).....
So...while I cant say he really got "better", he certaily didnt get worse either(or fall of a cliff, as JRB thinks)....same #'s exactly....
5) D. Bryant...I decided to include him, as he's ANOTHER player who's #'s went WAY up under Pettine......
With Oakland he = 2.5 sacks 31 tackles....Chud = 3.5 sacks 31 tackles.....Pettine = 5.0 sacks 38 tackles.....
So....yet another D player being maximized by this staff.....
Look....I get you guys(TCPO & jrb) want Pettine out....and I also get that you refuse to look at ANY of the stats, numbers or reasons that support the Coach....and Im more than willing to look at ANY viable arguments or stats that support your arguments,,,,,but Im not getting any....and when you DO post stuff....like above.....it's just made up(opinion), but supported by nothing....
and when I look it up, it proves out to be wrong....or just ridiculous.....like saying Bowe is Pettines fault, which is laughable....or claiming Haden had his worst season under Pettine(because he's missed the whole year due to injury).....or claiming Gipson had his worst year ever, when in fact it isnt his worst year AND he has had his best years since Pett(plus he's done it in spite of a damaged knee and concussion).....or claiming Traymon is worse, when CLEARLY he's not....or Starks....or Kruger.....
So....there are the numbers.....twist away....
These players got posted yesterday as guys who have "failed"..."fallen off a cliff".....or "gotten worse under Pettine"....and the truth is you guys are wrong and haven't done the research.....this is basically made up stuff....
so, even though I know you'll ignore the facts, Ill post them one more time......
1) Kruger(who we all seem to agree isnt very good) has had his 2 best seasons ever under pettine.....
Under Harbaugh he = 3.5 sacks & 12 tackles....Chud = 4.5 sacks & 26 tackles....Pettine = 7.5 sacks & 26 tackles....
So....Krugers 2 best years ever were under Pettine.....and the numbers dont lie......so, there's one...
And please note that "this year", even though he sucks, he's still has BETTER #'s then he had under Harbaugh(Coach God)
2) Gipson......also had his best year(by far) under Pettine and, this year, has been injured(and recovering from knee surgery)...
Under Shurmur & Chud he = 0.3 ints & 4.7 tackles per game....Pettine = 0.4 ints & 5.3 tackles er game.....
So...even with the serious injuries, missed camps, etc....he STILL has better #'s under Pettine......there's two....
3) Traymon....yet another misnomer, as Traymon is stronger in every stat, than he was at GB......and he got these #'s playing a harder position.......
.............................PFF ......Catch %......QBR........TD's allwd..........Passes Def.....
GB..........................4.1..........65...............101............8..........................10%
CLE........................4.3..........53................86.............2...........................10%
So.......Traymon is stronger in EVERY stat............period..........thats 3...............
4) Starks....12 year vet(old) who came from a 4-3 and STILL has the same per snap numbers he had at Miami.....
He is playing fewer downs in a different system and has still increased his tackles from 1 every 22 snaps to 1 every 19....his hurries are exactly the same and his sacks have dropped by 0,01 per game(negligible).....
So...while I cant say he really got "better", he certaily didnt get worse either(or fall of a cliff, as JRB thinks)....same #'s exactly....
5) D. Bryant...I decided to include him, as he's ANOTHER player who's #'s went WAY up under Pettine......
With Oakland he = 2.5 sacks 31 tackles....Chud = 3.5 sacks 31 tackles.....Pettine = 5.0 sacks 38 tackles.....
So....yet another D player being maximized by this staff.....
Look....I get you guys(TCPO & jrb) want Pettine out....and I also get that you refuse to look at ANY of the stats, numbers or reasons that support the Coach....and Im more than willing to look at ANY viable arguments or stats that support your arguments,,,,,but Im not getting any....and when you DO post stuff....like above.....it's just made up(opinion), but supported by nothing....
and when I look it up, it proves out to be wrong....or just ridiculous.....like saying Bowe is Pettines fault, which is laughable....or claiming Haden had his worst season under Pettine(because he's missed the whole year due to injury).....or claiming Gipson had his worst year ever, when in fact it isnt his worst year AND he has had his best years since Pett(plus he's done it in spite of a damaged knee and concussion).....or claiming Traymon is worse, when CLEARLY he's not....or Starks....or Kruger.....
So....there are the numbers.....twist away....
I did go on a long-winded "stat based" thing in the other thread I'd be interested to see your response to (not in a douchey way, but I'd like to hear what you have to say). I just don't get the argument of "these players are playing their best under Pettine, but we blow" because across many opinions (including mine) the guys we have are good football players. So even if looking at player stats suggest "good years" the Browns defense is having a miserable one.
So it's really hard for me when plenty of people rated the guys we have as above average football players to not blame coaching. It just doesn't make sense to me that all the people who rate these guys or have seen them play are all wrong and these guys are just not good and that the defense was crippled because one really good player went down.
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Round and round we go...
Mud's not saying you cannot make a case for Pet's dismissal, he's simply saying you cannot make the case TC, and others before him, just tried to make. Mass "player decline" cases made to date are simply not borne out by the individual player data.
Mud has said that the dominos set in motion by Haden's injuries (Haden being the one player Mud did not refute above) led to a decline in collective defensive backfield's performance which led to the decline in team defense. He argues that the depth of the secondary was insufficiently talented to sustain the starters' performance level.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Round and round we go...
Mud's not saying you cannot make a case for Pet's dismissal, he's simply saying you cannot make the case TC, and others before him, just tried to make. Mass "player decline" cases made to date are simply not borne out by the individual player data.
Mud has said that the dominos set in motion by Haden's injuries (Haden being the one player Mud did not refute above) led to a decline in collective defensive backfield's performance which led to the decline in team defense. He argues that the depth of the secondary was insufficiently talented to sustain the starters' performance level.
Round and round we go...
Mud's not saying you cannot make a case for Pet's dismissal, he's simply saying you cannot make the case TC, and others before him, just tried to make. Mass "player decline" cases made to date are simply not borne out by the individual player data.
Mud has said that the dominos set in motion by Haden's injuries (Haden being the one player Mud did not refute above) led to a decline in collective defensive backfield's performance which led to the decline in team defense. He argues that the depth of the secondary was insufficiently talented to sustain the starters' performance level.
I've understood what he's been saying since the first time he posted it. I respect what he's trying to say as well, we just disagree fundamentally (which I've said 10 times now I feel like). I don't see our depth as being bad at the position, hell going into the year a lot of people lauded our depth. That's not even mentioning a guy we invested a first round pick one not seeing the field (whole other story). Heck, I've even admitted I could be wrong a few times now.
I think we can all agree the defense is lousy and needs a reboot though. It's my opinion which is backed by the article I've floated around a few times now that this defense doesn't play at a base level to the strengths we have. Players are focused too much on execution of the scheme instead of just making plays. A coach's #1 job IMO is to play to the strengths of your team, and I just don't see it.
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