Lets look at the D.....last year/this year
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Completely appreciate your willingness to stand in there with me Tour....and that you've at least giving these ideas a fair shake......its a lonely battle....HA!
lol... only because I agree with those ideas... and I have a bit of a St. Jude complex.
Not to mention that I love a good debate and the longer I can keep this one going, the longer I can avoid diving fully into the 2016 Draft debate... which is folly at this point.
At least with practice, I think my summary of your theory has gotten both shorter and clearer...
At least with practice, I think my summary of your theory has gotten both shorter and clearer...
Yes....liked that summary too......I took me a thousand words to say what you did in 100.....
I don't think you're understanding me is the problem. First off I've said a bunch of time I respect your argument and points, no need to get super defensive when we're just talking here. I've done my research and posted it as well.
Anyway, I'm not suggesting these got worse in the slightest, I think we have talent on defense that isn't used properly by coaches. I've posted it now too many times but players are thinking too much on where to be out there instead of playing which the article does a way better job than I would saying. Pettine's whole mantra is tough-nosed defense and he's failed a foundational level to bring that to Cleveland. To shift gears let me ask you this: how many years does Pettine "deserve" to improve? He started off well, we've (as a team) fallen off the cliff now. So what is the time you give him to turn it around?
I do understand....and just disagree and dont feel like debating it....which is what I tried to explain, though maybe not well....
And, yeah I do get defensive sometimes(sorry), but usual try(very hard) to stay neutral and calm....and NEVER sling Mud, even though it is my name....so, when reading my stuff, just do it in a monotone, cause thats usually where my mind is.....
In terms of Pettine....I think he deserves one more year(Farmer too)....call it the "rubber" year.....Cause I saw a big improvement over the first half of year one....then Ive seen the team decimated by injuries to it's best players(which are only a few).....and I see a bunch of young draft picks that haven't even begun to show what they can do.....and both Pett and Farmer deserve the chance to see that thru....1 good year....1 bad year....and next, the rubber year.....
I once owned a contracting firm and one of my peeves was when, while still in the middle of a job, people would be like "is that how it's gonna look".....Im not sure I like that.....what about this....are you done yett....etc etc....and we weren't even finished....(let me finish, THEN we can discuss it...k?)
So.....rather than grade these guys on a job half done, Id rather see it through another year.....
Cause...I know with certainty....that a new coach and a new GM mean we are in for another 5 years of shit and I think thats worse than one more year with this crew....
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I don't want to hear "any' talk of retaining Kruger if we stay in this 3-4. I'd think about keeping him around if we told him to put 15 or so lbs back on and play with his hand down all the time. Maybe he could get his bull back who knows.
I don't want to hear "any' talk of retaining Kruger if we stay in this 3-4. I'd think about keeping him around if we told him to put 15 or so lbs back on and play with his hand down all the time. Maybe he could get his bull back who knows.
If our DB's return to health(and form), Kruger might start getting sacks again......though I REALLY pray he gets them as a back-up and/or situational rusher, while our shiny new 3 tool linebacker wreaks havoc....
He'll be the only $8 million back up in the league......(well, along with Bowe that is).....
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At least with practice, I think my summary of your theory has gotten both shorter and clearer...
Yes....liked that summary too......I took me a thousand words to say what you did in 100.....
I don't think you're understanding me is the problem. First off I've said a bunch of time I respect your argument and points, no need to get super defensive when we're just talking here. I've done my research and posted it as well.
Anyway, I'm not suggesting these got worse in the slightest, I think we have talent on defense that isn't used properly by coaches. I've posted it now too many times but players are thinking too much on where to be out there instead of playing which the article does a way better job than I would saying. Pettine's whole mantra is tough-nosed defense and he's failed a foundational level to bring that to Cleveland. To shift gears let me ask you this: how many years does Pettine "deserve" to improve? He started off well, we've (as a team) fallen off the cliff now. So what is the time you give him to turn it around?
I do understand....and just disagree and dont feel like debating it....which is what I tried to explain, though maybe not well....
And, yeah I do get defensive sometimes(sorry), but usual try(very hard) to stay neutral and calm....and NEVER sling Mud, even though it is my name....so, when reading my stuff, just do it in a monotone, cause thats usually where my mind is.....
In terms of Pettine....I think he deserves one more year(Farmer too)....call it the "rubber" year.....Cause I saw a big improvement over the first half of year one....then Ive seen the team decimated by injuries to it's best players(which are only a few).....and I see a bunch of young draft picks that haven't even begun to show what they can do.....and both Pett and Farmer deserve the chance to see that thru....1 good year....1 bad year....and next, the rubber year.....
I once owned a contracting firm and one of my peeves was when, while still in the middle of a job, people would be like "is that how it's gonna look".....Im not sure I like that.....what about this....are you done yett....etc etc....and we weren't even finished....(let me finish, THEN we can discuss it...k?)
So.....rather than grade these guys on a job half done, Id rather see it through another year.....
Cause...I know with certainty....that a new coach and a new GM mean we are in for another 5 years of shit and I think thats worse than one more year with this crew....
...and both Pett and Farmer deserve the chance to see that thru....1 good year....1 bad year....and next, the rubber year...
I'm there as well... As I said in another thread, these guys can still work together. Starting with "you boys are in the same fucking boat," would not be the worst motivation in the world to start with.
If our DB's return to health(and form), Kruger might start getting sacks again...
... but does little for his edge setting and run D in general.
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Players who have had career years:
Barnidge, McCown, Benji, Schwartz, Greco, Hawkins, Kruger
Players who have had possibly the worst years of their entire careers:
Bowe, Tramon Williams, Kruger, Starks, Gipson, Haden
(offensive players bolded)
The career year players have nearly all been offensive...except for Kruger(2014), Gipson(2014), Robertson(2014-15), D. Bryant(2014-15), Skrine(2014)....as well as Dansby, Whitner and Haden continuing to matching their All-Pro numbers....so that is 8 out of 11 starters right there...
Further, our GM went out and got guys solely to run his system, and those players haven't seen the field or haven't done shit.
Because 1/2 of them are shit.....plus a couple rookies who are green....
You can try and pin the successes of Barnidge and McCown on Pettine, but I'm going to be more realistic and pin them on Flip, while the failures of Tramon, Kruger, and Starks are pinned on O'Neil.
These players got posted yesterday as guys who have "failed"..."fallen off a cliff".....or "gotten worse under Pettine"....and the truth is you guys are wrong and haven't done the research.....this is basically made up stuff....
so, even though I know you'll ignore the facts, Ill post them one more time......
1) Kruger(who we all seem to agree isnt very good) has had his 2 best seasons ever under pettine.....
Under Harbaugh he = 3.5 sacks & 12 tackles....Chud = 4.5 sacks & 26 tackles....Pettine = 7.5 sacks & 26 tackles....
So....Krugers 2 best years ever were under Pettine.....and the numbers dont lie......so, there's one...
And please note that "this year", even though he sucks, he's still has BETTER #'s then he had under Harbaugh(Coach God)
2) Gipson......also had his best year(by far) under Pettine and, this year, has been injured(and recovering from knee surgery)...
Under Shurmur & Chud he = 0.3 ints & 4.7 tackles per game....Pettine = 0.4 ints & 5.3 tackles er game.....
So...even with the serious injuries, missed camps, etc....he STILL has better #'s under Pettine......there's two....
3) Traymon....yet another misnomer, as Traymon is stronger in every stat, than he was at GB......and he got these #'s playing a harder position.......
.............................PFF ......Catch %......QBR........TD's allwd..........Passes Def.....
GB..........................4.1..........65...............101............8..........................10%
CLE........................4.3..........53................86.............2...........................10%
So.......Traymon is stronger in EVERY stat............period..........thats 3...............
4) Starks....12 year vet(old) who came from a 4-3 and STILL has the same per snap numbers he had at Miami.....
He is playing fewer downs in a different system and has still increased his tackles from 1 every 22 snaps to 1 every 19....his hurries are exactly the same and his sacks have dropped by 0,01 per game(negligible).....
So...while I cant say he really got "better", he certaily didnt get worse either(or fall of a cliff, as JRB thinks)....same #'s exactly....
5) D. Bryant...I decided to include him, as he's ANOTHER player who's #'s went WAY up under Pettine......
With Oakland he = 2.5 sacks 31 tackles....Chud = 3.5 sacks 31 tackles.....Pettine = 5.0 sacks 38 tackles.....
So....yet another D player being maximized by this staff.....
Look....I get you guys(TCPO & jrb) want Pettine out....and I also get that you refuse to look at ANY of the stats, numbers or reasons that support the Coach....and Im more than willing to look at ANY viable arguments or stats that support your arguments,,,,,but Im not getting any....and when you DO post stuff....like above.....it's just made up(opinion), but supported by nothing....
and when I look it up, it proves out to be wrong....or just ridiculous.....like saying Bowe is Pettines fault, which is laughable....or claiming Haden had his worst season under Pettine(because he's missed the whole year due to injury).....or claiming Gipson had his worst year ever, when in fact it isnt his worst year AND he has had his best years since Pett(plus he's done it in spite of a damaged knee and concussion).....or claiming Traymon is worse, when CLEARLY he's not....or Starks....or Kruger.....
So....there are the numbers.....twist away....
These players got posted yesterday as guys who have "failed"..."fallen off a cliff".....or "gotten worse under Pettine"....and the truth is you guys are wrong and haven't done the research.....this is basically made up stuff....
so, even though I know you'll ignore the facts, Ill post them one more time......
1) Kruger(who we all seem to agree isnt very good) has had his 2 best seasons ever under pettine.....
Under Harbaugh he = 3.5 sacks & 12 tackles....Chud = 4.5 sacks & 26 tackles....Pettine = 7.5 sacks & 26 tackles....
So....Krugers 2 best years ever were under Pettine.....and the numbers dont lie......so, there's one...
And please note that "this year", even though he sucks, he's still has BETTER #'s then he had under Harbaugh(Coach God)
2) Gipson......also had his best year(by far) under Pettine and, this year, has been injured(and recovering from knee surgery)...
Under Shurmur & Chud he = 0.3 ints & 4.7 tackles per game....Pettine = 0.4 ints & 5.3 tackles er game.....
So...even with the serious injuries, missed camps, etc....he STILL has better #'s under Pettine......there's two....
3) Traymon....yet another misnomer, as Traymon is stronger in every stat, than he was at GB......and he got these #'s playing a harder position.......
.............................PFF ......Catch %......QBR........TD's allwd..........Passes Def.....
GB..........................4.1..........65...............101............8..........................10%
CLE........................4.3..........53................86.............2...........................10%
So.......Traymon is stronger in EVERY stat............period..........thats 3...............
4) Starks....12 year vet(old) who came from a 4-3 and STILL has the same per snap numbers he had at Miami.....
He is playing fewer downs in a different system and has still increased his tackles from 1 every 22 snaps to 1 every 19....his hurries are exactly the same and his sacks have dropped by 0,01 per game(negligible).....
So...while I cant say he really got "better", he certaily didnt get worse either(or fall of a cliff, as JRB thinks)....same #'s exactly....
5) D. Bryant...I decided to include him, as he's ANOTHER player who's #'s went WAY up under Pettine......
With Oakland he = 2.5 sacks 31 tackles....Chud = 3.5 sacks 31 tackles.....Pettine = 5.0 sacks 38 tackles.....
So....yet another D player being maximized by this staff.....
Look....I get you guys(TCPO & jrb) want Pettine out....and I also get that you refuse to look at ANY of the stats, numbers or reasons that support the Coach....and Im more than willing to look at ANY viable arguments or stats that support your arguments,,,,,but Im not getting any....and when you DO post stuff....like above.....it's just made up(opinion), but supported by nothing....
and when I look it up, it proves out to be wrong....or just ridiculous.....like saying Bowe is Pettines fault, which is laughable....or claiming Haden had his worst season under Pettine(because he's missed the whole year due to injury).....or claiming Gipson had his worst year ever, when in fact it isnt his worst year AND he has had his best years since Pett(plus he's done it in spite of a damaged knee and concussion).....or claiming Traymon is worse, when CLEARLY he's not....or Starks....or Kruger.....
So....there are the numbers.....twist away....
Except that your numbers are 1) wrong or 2) completely in a bubble.
Kruger
Kruger's first two years in Baltimore were equivalent to him being on the practice squad. He switched from OLB to DE back to OLB and his snap count percentage was in the teens-twenties, meaning they have absolutely no impact to his career. In effect, he's career started in 2011, when he became a situational pass rusher. Then, in 2012, he became utilized more as an every down linebacker, comparable in some sense to his career arc here.
2011 | 15 tck. | 5.5 sack | 0 FF | 2 FR | 0 INT | NO DATA | NO DATA
2012 | 42 tck. | 9.0 sack | 1 FF | 1 FR | 1 INT | 788 snaps | 69.06%
2013 | 47 tck. | 4.5 sack | 2 FF | 0 FR | 0 INT | 878 snaps | 76.35% (Farmer)
2014 | 53 tck. | 11 sack | 4 FF | 0 FR | 0 INT | 898 snaps | 77.21%
2015 | 21 tck. | 2.5 sack | 0 FF | 0 FR | 0 INT | 570 snaps | 65.74%
You're right that 2011 was his best year, but it wasn't by far, considering as he only managed 2 more sacks and 11 more tackles on 111 more snaps. His four sack fumbles were very impressive, I cannot deny that, but I don't see how that has any reflection on the coach (maybe his position coach who MAYBE emphasized going for the ball more, even though that's been taught to pass rushers since grade school?).
It's also why I included Kruger in the list of "player's who had career years under Pettine". Unfortunately, he's also had his worst year as a starting LB - this year.
As for his two year span, it's nearly identical to his two-year span in Baltimore.
2011 / 2012 | 57 tck. | 14.5 sack | 1 FF | 3 FR | 1 INT | 1,468 snaps*
2014 / 2015 | 74 tck. | 13.5 sack | 4 FF | 0 FR | 0 INT | 1,468 snaps
*(No data for 2011 so let's set the snap count to equal that of the 2014 / 2015 span)
If we were to divide that out by 29 games (the number of games started by Kruger over the last two seasons), we'd see that Kruger is only a half tackle better per game than he was in Baltimore...and that's assuming the snap counts are, in fact, equal...which I'd say they aren't.
So, no he's not much better under Pettine than Harbaugh. He's almost equal, and that's pretty sad considering that Kruger was the third linebacker behind Jarret Johnson and Terrell Suggs until 2012.
Gipson
2012 | 1 INT | 0 TD | 1 passes defended | 23 tck. | 367 snaps | 31.58%
2013 | 5 INT | 1 TD | 12 passes defended | 63 tck. | 1101 snaps | 95.74%
2014 | 6 INT | 1 TD | 8 passes defended | 28 tck. | 771 snaps | 66.29%
2015 | 2 INT | 0 TD | 2 passes defended | 31 tck. | 621 snaps | 71.63%
As you said, Gipson did have his best year under Pettine - when he was allowed to play more of a roving free safety and was relied a little less in the run game. I should have included him in that list.
However, he's also had his worst year under Pettine/ O'Neil - this year...and it's not even really close. He's managed one more interception and one more passes defended than he did when he was a rotational safety in 2012, despite playing almost 300 more snaps so far. Once again, you're including a season where Gipson barely played and using that to bring down his stats in the "pre-Pettine" era.
If you break it down per snap, Gipson recorded an INT on .4% of his snaps, a pass defended on .8% of his snaps and a tackle on 5.8% of snaps under Chud/Shurmur, compared to an INT on .5% of snaps, a pass defended on .7% of his snaps and a tackle on 4.2% of snaps under Pettine.
Gipson was impactful in some fashion on 7% of his snaps under Chud/Shumur, and 5.4% under Pettine thus far. And before you call this a "spin", per snap impact is a small part of the algorithm that is used to determine salaries on some daily fantasy sites, and I'm sure it's also utilized for rankings and such.
Gipson's season thus far has been forgetful at the very best - which is why he deserves to be on the list of players having their worst year under Pettine.
Tramon
I'm not sure where you're seeing the opposing QBR and TD's allowed statistic, so I can't comment on that...but if you're comparing the 8 TD's he let as a defensive back in Green Bay with the two he's allowed so far this season...that is hilarious to me. As a matter of fact, I have no idea what reference point you're using at all with those stats. Is that per season? Is that all of his seasons aggregated for each team? You gave a very small, very incomplete slice of statistics with no reference point and then expected that to be some end-all, be-all proof.
So, instead, I'll just post the stats from every one of his seasons as a pro.
2007 | 1 INT | 0 TD | 4 passes defended | 16 tck. |
2008 | 5 INT | 0 TD | 14 passes defended | 52 tck. |
2009 | 4 INT | 0 TD | 14 passes defended | 46 tck. |
2010 | 6 INT | 0 TD | 20 passes defended | 50 tck. |
2011 | 4 INT | 1 TD | 19 passes defended | 53 tck. |
2012 | 2 INT | 0 TD | 15 passes defended | 52 tck. |
2013 | 3 INT | 0 TD | 14 passes defended | 61 tck. |
2014 | 3 INT | 0 TD | 14 passes defended | 65 tck. |
2015 | 1 INT | 0 TD | 8 passes defended | 46 tck.
The only time he's had performance this poor was his rookie season - when he was a third CB behind Woodson and Harris and played sparingly. Right now, he's averaging .08 INT and .66 tackles per game - both of which are his lowest per game numbers in his career as a starter. And all of this despite the fact that he's played 96.89% of snaps.
So he's played nearly every snap, yet is performing at the lowest level he ever has in his career....like I said.
Starks
Right off the bat, you're already wrong. Starks has played, and excelled, in both the 4-3 and the 3-4. He was a 3-4 defensive end throughout his career in Tennessee, then moved to Miami where he earned a Pro Bowl nod as a 4-3 DE and then again as a 4-3 DT. He's played essentially every position along the defensive line in multiple schemes and that was the main reason we targeted him in FA.
But, as you say, he's old. So let's compare the last three years of his career...since his last Pro Bowl. This way, we'll get the best picture of his impact without having all of those pesky "good stats" in the way.
2013 | 36 tck. | 4.0 sack | 7 TFL | 728 snaps | 63.58%
2014 | 19 tck. | 4.5 sack | 6 TFL | 541 snaps | 51.09%
2015 | 10 tck. | 1 sack | 3 TFL | 381 snaps | 43.94%
That's a tackle on only 2% of snaps this year, compared to 5% in 2013. That's a sack on .2% of his snaps, compared to .8% last year. Yet another of a player being underutilized this year.
Au contraire, you say that I don't look at the stats. I say that you're cherry picking stats to make your argument and then offering them in a slice to make yourself look good. Point of the matter is that we've never spent so much on a side of the ball and seen such a bad return. You can make any argument you want to try and justify it but, at the end of the day, O'Neil is just a poor defensive coordinator and has players that contributed up until last year and still can't do anything with them.
Our defensive ranking, and the fact that you're one of only a handful of people defending him, should help you open your eyes. But you can continue to be blind and defend a guy who's not doing much of anything all you want. I'm done with it. Next year, you'll probably be just as gung-ho against our new DC just because he's not your boy O'Neil.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
These players got posted yesterday as guys who have "failed"..."fallen off a cliff".....or "gotten worse under Pettine"....and the truth is you guys are wrong and haven't done the research.....this is basically made up stuff....
so, even though I know you'll ignore the facts, Ill post them one more time......
1) Kruger(who we all seem to agree isnt very good) has had his 2 best seasons ever under pettine.....
Under Harbaugh he = 3.5 sacks & 12 tackles....Chud = 4.5 sacks & 26 tackles....Pettine = 7.5 sacks & 26 tackles....
So....Krugers 2 best years ever were under Pettine.....and the numbers dont lie......so, there's one...
And please note that "this year", even though he sucks, he's still has BETTER #'s then he had under Harbaugh(Coach God)
2) Gipson......also had his best year(by far) under Pettine and, this year, has been injured(and recovering from knee surgery)...
Under Shurmur & Chud he = 0.3 ints & 4.7 tackles per game....Pettine = 0.4 ints & 5.3 tackles er game.....
So...even with the serious injuries, missed camps, etc....he STILL has better #'s under Pettine......there's two....
3) Traymon....yet another misnomer, as Traymon is stronger in every stat, than he was at GB......and he got these #'s playing a harder position.......
.............................PFF ......Catch %......QBR........TD's allwd..........Passes Def.....
GB..........................4.1..........65...............101............8..........................10%
CLE........................4.3..........53................86.............2...........................10%
So.......Traymon is stronger in EVERY stat............period..........thats 3...............
4) Starks....12 year vet(old) who came from a 4-3 and STILL has the same per snap numbers he had at Miami.....
He is playing fewer downs in a different system and has still increased his tackles from 1 every 22 snaps to 1 every 19....his hurries are exactly the same and his sacks have dropped by 0,01 per game(negligible).....
So...while I cant say he really got "better", he certaily didnt get worse either(or fall of a cliff, as JRB thinks)....same #'s exactly....
5) D. Bryant...I decided to include him, as he's ANOTHER player who's #'s went WAY up under Pettine......
With Oakland he = 2.5 sacks 31 tackles....Chud = 3.5 sacks 31 tackles.....Pettine = 5.0 sacks 38 tackles.....
So....yet another D player being maximized by this staff.....
Look....I get you guys(TCPO & jrb) want Pettine out....and I also get that you refuse to look at ANY of the stats, numbers or reasons that support the Coach....and Im more than willing to look at ANY viable arguments or stats that support your arguments,,,,,but Im not getting any....and when you DO post stuff....like above.....it's just made up(opinion), but supported by nothing....
and when I look it up, it proves out to be wrong....or just ridiculous.....like saying Bowe is Pettines fault, which is laughable....or claiming Haden had his worst season under Pettine(because he's missed the whole year due to injury).....or claiming Gipson had his worst year ever, when in fact it isnt his worst year AND he has had his best years since Pett(plus he's done it in spite of a damaged knee and concussion).....or claiming Traymon is worse, when CLEARLY he's not....or Starks....or Kruger.....
So....there are the numbers.....twist away....
Except that your numbers are 1) wrong or 2) completely in a bubble.
Kruger
Kruger's first two years in Baltimore were equivalent to him being on the practice squad. He switched from OLB to DE back to OLB and his snap count percentage was in the teens-twenties, meaning they have absolutely no impact to his career. In effect, he's career started in 2011, when he became a situational pass rusher. Then, in 2012, he became utilized more as an every down linebacker, comparable in some sense to his career arc here.
2011 | 15 tck. | 5.5 sack | 0 FF | 2 FR | 0 INT | NO DATA | NO DATA
2012 | 42 tck. | 9.0 sack | 1 FF | 1 FR | 1 INT | 788 snaps | 69.06%
2013 | 47 tck. | 4.5 sack | 2 FF | 0 FR | 0 INT | 878 snaps | 76.35% (Farmer)
2014 | 53 tck. | 11 sack | 4 FF | 0 FR | 0 INT | 898 snaps | 77.21%
2015 | 21 tck. | 2.5 sack | 0 FF | 0 FR | 0 INT | 570 snaps | 65.74%
You're right that 2011 was his best year, but it wasn't by far, considering as he only managed 2 more sacks and 11 more tackles on 111 more snaps. His four sack fumbles were very impressive, I cannot deny that, but I don't see how that has any reflection on the coach (maybe his position coach who MAYBE emphasized going for the ball more, even though that's been taught to pass rushers since grade school?).
It's also why I included Kruger in the list of "player's who had career years under Pettine". Unfortunately, he's also had his worst year as a starting LB - this year.
As for his two year span, it's nearly identical to his two-year span in Baltimore.
2011 / 2012 | 57 tck. | 14.5 sack | 1 FF | 3 FR | 1 INT | 1,468 snaps*
2014 / 2015 | 74 tck. | 13.5 sack | 4 FF | 0 FR | 0 INT | 1,468 snaps
*(No data for 2011 so let's set the snap count to equal that of the 2014 / 2015 span)
If we were to divide that out by 29 games (the number of games started by Kruger over the last two seasons), we'd see that Kruger is only a half tackle better per game than he was in Baltimore...and that's assuming the snap counts are, in fact, equal...which I'd say they aren't.
So, no he's not much better under Pettine than Harbaugh. He's almost equal, and that's pretty sad considering that Kruger was the third linebacker behind Jarret Johnson and Terrell Suggs until 2012.
Gipson
2012 | 1 INT | 0 TD | 1 passes defended | 23 tck. | 367 snaps | 31.58%
2013 | 5 INT | 1 TD | 12 passes defended | 63 tck. | 1101 snaps | 95.74%
2014 | 6 INT | 1 TD | 8 passes defended | 28 tck. | 771 snaps | 66.29%
2015 | 2 INT | 0 TD | 2 passes defended | 31 tck. | 621 snaps | 71.63%
As you said, Gipson did have his best year under Pettine - when he was allowed to play more of a roving free safety and was relied a little less in the run game. I should have included him in that list.
However, he's also had his worst year under Pettine/ O'Neil - this year...and it's not even really close. He's managed one more interception and one more passes defended than he did when he was a rotational safety in 2012, despite playing almost 300 more snaps so far. Once again, you're including a season where Gipson barely played and using that to bring down his stats in the "pre-Pettine" era.
If you break it down per snap, Gipson recorded an INT on .4% of his snaps, a pass defended on .8% of his snaps and a tackle on 5.8% of snaps under Chud/Shurmur, compared to an INT on .5% of snaps, a pass defended on .7% of his snaps and a tackle on 4.2% of snaps under Pettine.
Gipson was impactful in some fashion on 7% of his snaps under Chud/Shumur, and 5.4% under Pettine thus far. And before you call this a "spin", per snap impact is a small part of the algorithm that is used to determine salaries on some daily fantasy sites, and I'm sure it's also utilized for rankings and such.
Gipson's season thus far has been forgetful at the very best - which is why he deserves to be on the list of players having their worst year under Pettine.
Tramon
I'm not sure where you're seeing the opposing QBR and TD's allowed statistic, so I can't comment on that...but if you're comparing the 8 TD's he let as a defensive back in Green Bay with the two he's allowed so far this season...that is hilarious to me. As a matter of fact, I have no idea what reference point you're using at all with those stats. Is that per season? Is that all of his seasons aggregated for each team? You gave a very small, very incomplete slice of statistics with no reference point and then expected that to be some end-all, be-all proof.
So, instead, I'll just post the stats from every one of his seasons as a pro.
2007 | 1 INT | 0 TD | 4 passes defended | 16 tck. |
2008 | 5 INT | 0 TD | 14 passes defended | 52 tck. |
2009 | 4 INT | 0 TD | 14 passes defended | 46 tck. |
2010 | 6 INT | 0 TD | 20 passes defended | 50 tck. |
2011 | 4 INT | 1 TD | 19 passes defended | 53 tck. |
2012 | 2 INT | 0 TD | 15 passes defended | 52 tck. |
2013 | 3 INT | 0 TD | 14 passes defended | 61 tck. |
2014 | 3 INT | 0 TD | 14 passes defended | 65 tck. |
2015 | 1 INT | 0 TD | 8 passes defended | 46 tck.
The only time he's had performance this poor was his rookie season - when he was a third CB behind Woodson and Harris and played sparingly. Right now, he's averaging .08 INT and .66 tackles per game - both of which are his lowest per game numbers in his career as a starter. And all of this despite the fact that he's played 96.89% of snaps.
So he's played nearly every snap, yet is performing at the lowest level he ever has in his career....like I said.
Starks
Right off the bat, you're already wrong. Starks has played, and excelled, in both the 4-3 and the 3-4. He was a 3-4 defensive end throughout his career in Tennessee, then moved to Miami where he earned a Pro Bowl nod as a 4-3 DE and then again as a 4-3 DT. He's played essentially every position along the defensive line in multiple schemes and that was the main reason we targeted him in FA.
But, as you say, he's old. So let's compare the last three years of his career...since his last Pro Bowl. This way, we'll get the best picture of his impact without having all of those pesky "good stats" in the way.
2013 | 36 tck. | 4.0 sack | 7 TFL | 728 snaps | 63.58%
2014 | 19 tck. | 4.5 sack | 6 TFL | 541 snaps | 51.09%
2015 | 10 tck. | 1 sack | 3 TFL | 381 snaps | 43.94%
That's a tackle on only 2% of snaps this year, compared to 5% in 2013. That's a sack on .2% of his snaps, compared to .8% last year. Yet another of a player being underutilized this year.
Au contraire, you say that I don't look at the stats. I say that you're cherry picking stats to make your argument and then offering them in a slice to make yourself look good. Point of the matter is that we've never spent so much on a side of the ball and seen such a bad return. You can make any argument you want to try and justify it but, at the end of the day, O'Neil is just a poor defensive coordinator and has players that contributed up until last year and still can't do anything with them.
Our defensive ranking, and the fact that you're one of only a handful of people defending him, should help you open your eyes. But you can continue to be blind and defend a guy who's not doing much of anything all you want. I'm done with it. Next year, you'll probably be just as gung-ho against our new DC just because he's not your boy O'Neil.
Kruger
Kruger's first two years in Baltimore were equivalent to him being on the practice squad. In effect, he's career started in 2011, when he became a situational pass rusher. Then, in 2012, he became utilized more as an every down linebacker
The truth is that Kruger never even started for Baltimore....because he sucks....thats the truth....
You're right that 2011 was his best year.....yes I was
(maybe his position coach who MAYBE emphasized going for the ball more, even though that's been taught to pass rushers since grade school?).
Arent ALL these guys doing stuff they've been doing since grade school?...tackling, blocking, etc?....so, its the coaches fault when they DONT do it, but NOT the Coach when they DO do it?.....cant have it both ways....
Unfortunately, he's also had his worst year as a starting LB - this year.
And he's only been a starter here....so there's that.....
So, no he's not much better under Pettine than Harbaugh. He's almost equal
So, he just went from WAY worse to equal???.....and because he's equal, Pettine should be fired?....OK
Gipson
As you said, Gipson did have his best year under Pettine -
Yes he did....and he's playing the same system this year...not a different role as you suggest....
Gipson's season thus far has been forgetful at the very best - which is why he deserves to be on the list of players having their worst year under Pettine.
And, as usual, you completely ignore his knee surgery, concussion and hold out.....You prefer to imply that NONE of those contributed to his bad year, and its all on the Coach...not a fair argument at all...
Tramon
I simply compared Tramon(and Starks) #'s from the year prior to coming here....BOTH of these guys are WAY past their primes, so do you think it's fair to go back 6 years and extract higher stats as a comparison?....how about comparing this years stats to the guy we sign from last year, cause thats who we signed.....the 32 yr old Traymon, not the 26 yr old Tramon...
So my stats were from last year....he gave up 8 TD's as the #2 corner and, this year, 2 TD's as the #1...Im comparing apples to apples...
Starks
Right off the bat, you're already wrong. Starks has played, and excelled, in both the 4-3 and the 3-4. He was a 3-4 defensive end throughout his career in Tennessee, then moved to Miami where he earned a Pro Bowl nod as a 4-3 DE and then again as a 4-3 DT. He's played essentially every position along the defensive line in multiple schemes and that was the main reason we targeted him in FA.
Again....I dont care what Starks did 6 years ago on another team.....Im comparing his #'s this year to the #'s he put up last year with Miami, because like Traymon, he is an old tired out player who is a shadow of what he used to be and his stats are in decline.....ad over the years his performance has declined....so, the numbers he's producing now are equal to the numbers he was producing when WE signed him
Our defensive ranking, and the fact that you're one of only a handful of people defending him, should help you open your eyes. But you can continue to be blind and defend a guy who's not doing much of anything all you want. I'm done with it.
My eyes are wide open.....and Im not the one with an agenda here.....and Im glad your done trying to make me wrong, cause I never asked you to begin with....
Like I said before....go do your researc and start on thread on why the team sucks....your seem to be so sure abut everything and NEVER wrong....so go for it......we are all waiting with bated breath....
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These players got posted yesterday as guys who have "failed"..."fallen off a cliff".....or "gotten worse under Pettine"....and the truth is you guys are wrong and haven't done the research.....this is basically made up stuff....
so, even though I know you'll ignore the facts, Ill post them one more time......
1) Kruger(who we all seem to agree isnt very good) has had his 2 best seasons ever under pettine.....
Under Harbaugh he = 3.5 sacks & 12 tackles....Chud = 4.5 sacks & 26 tackles....Pettine = 7.5 sacks & 26 tackles....
So....Krugers 2 best years ever were under Pettine.....and the numbers dont lie......so, there's one...
And please note that "this year", even though he sucks, he's still has BETTER #'s then he had under Harbaugh(Coach God)
2) Gipson......also had his best year(by far) under Pettine and, this year, has been injured(and recovering from knee surgery)...
Under Shurmur & Chud he = 0.3 ints & 4.7 tackles per game....Pettine = 0.4 ints & 5.3 tackles er game.....
So...even with the serious injuries, missed camps, etc....he STILL has better #'s under Pettine......there's two....
3) Traymon....yet another misnomer, as Traymon is stronger in every stat, than he was at GB......and he got these #'s playing a harder position.......
.............................PFF ......Catch %......QBR........TD's allwd..........Passes Def.....
GB..........................4.1..........65...............101............8..........................10%
CLE........................4.3..........53................86.............2...........................10%
So.......Traymon is stronger in EVERY stat............period..........thats 3...............
4) Starks....12 year vet(old) who came from a 4-3 and STILL has the same per snap numbers he had at Miami.....
He is playing fewer downs in a different system and has still increased his tackles from 1 every 22 snaps to 1 every 19....his hurries are exactly the same and his sacks have dropped by 0,01 per game(negligible).....
So...while I cant say he really got "better", he certaily didnt get worse either(or fall of a cliff, as JRB thinks)....same #'s exactly....
5) D. Bryant...I decided to include him, as he's ANOTHER player who's #'s went WAY up under Pettine......
With Oakland he = 2.5 sacks 31 tackles....Chud = 3.5 sacks 31 tackles.....Pettine = 5.0 sacks 38 tackles.....
So....yet another D player being maximized by this staff.....
Look....I get you guys(TCPO & jrb) want Pettine out....and I also get that you refuse to look at ANY of the stats, numbers or reasons that support the Coach....and Im more than willing to look at ANY viable arguments or stats that support your arguments,,,,,but Im not getting any....and when you DO post stuff....like above.....it's just made up(opinion), but supported by nothing....
and when I look it up, it proves out to be wrong....or just ridiculous.....like saying Bowe is Pettines fault, which is laughable....or claiming Haden had his worst season under Pettine(because he's missed the whole year due to injury).....or claiming Gipson had his worst year ever, when in fact it isnt his worst year AND he has had his best years since Pett(plus he's done it in spite of a damaged knee and concussion).....or claiming Traymon is worse, when CLEARLY he's not....or Starks....or Kruger.....
So....there are the numbers.....twist away....
Except that your numbers are 1) wrong or 2) completely in a bubble.
Kruger
Kruger's first two years in Baltimore were equivalent to him being on the practice squad. He switched from OLB to DE back to OLB and his snap count percentage was in the teens-twenties, meaning they have absolutely no impact to his career. In effect, he's career started in 2011, when he became a situational pass rusher. Then, in 2012, he became utilized more as an every down linebacker, comparable in some sense to his career arc here.
2011 | 15 tck. | 5.5 sack | 0 FF | 2 FR | 0 INT | NO DATA | NO DATA
2012 | 42 tck. | 9.0 sack | 1 FF | 1 FR | 1 INT | 788 snaps | 69.06%
2013 | 47 tck. | 4.5 sack | 2 FF | 0 FR | 0 INT | 878 snaps | 76.35% (Farmer)
2014 | 53 tck. | 11 sack | 4 FF | 0 FR | 0 INT | 898 snaps | 77.21%
2015 | 21 tck. | 2.5 sack | 0 FF | 0 FR | 0 INT | 570 snaps | 65.74%
You're right that 2011 was his best year, but it wasn't by far, considering as he only managed 2 more sacks and 11 more tackles on 111 more snaps. His four sack fumbles were very impressive, I cannot deny that, but I don't see how that has any reflection on the coach (maybe his position coach who MAYBE emphasized going for the ball more, even though that's been taught to pass rushers since grade school?).
It's also why I included Kruger in the list of "player's who had career years under Pettine". Unfortunately, he's also had his worst year as a starting LB - this year.
As for his two year span, it's nearly identical to his two-year span in Baltimore.
2011 / 2012 | 57 tck. | 14.5 sack | 1 FF | 3 FR | 1 INT | 1,468 snaps*
2014 / 2015 | 74 tck. | 13.5 sack | 4 FF | 0 FR | 0 INT | 1,468 snaps
*(No data for 2011 so let's set the snap count to equal that of the 2014 / 2015 span)
If we were to divide that out by 29 games (the number of games started by Kruger over the last two seasons), we'd see that Kruger is only a half tackle better per game than he was in Baltimore...and that's assuming the snap counts are, in fact, equal...which I'd say they aren't.
So, no he's not much better under Pettine than Harbaugh. He's almost equal, and that's pretty sad considering that Kruger was the third linebacker behind Jarret Johnson and Terrell Suggs until 2012.
Gipson
2012 | 1 INT | 0 TD | 1 passes defended | 23 tck. | 367 snaps | 31.58%
2013 | 5 INT | 1 TD | 12 passes defended | 63 tck. | 1101 snaps | 95.74%
2014 | 6 INT | 1 TD | 8 passes defended | 28 tck. | 771 snaps | 66.29%
2015 | 2 INT | 0 TD | 2 passes defended | 31 tck. | 621 snaps | 71.63%
As you said, Gipson did have his best year under Pettine - when he was allowed to play more of a roving free safety and was relied a little less in the run game. I should have included him in that list.
However, he's also had his worst year under Pettine/ O'Neil - this year...and it's not even really close. He's managed one more interception and one more passes defended than he did when he was a rotational safety in 2012, despite playing almost 300 more snaps so far. Once again, you're including a season where Gipson barely played and using that to bring down his stats in the "pre-Pettine" era.
If you break it down per snap, Gipson recorded an INT on .4% of his snaps, a pass defended on .8% of his snaps and a tackle on 5.8% of snaps under Chud/Shurmur, compared to an INT on .5% of snaps, a pass defended on .7% of his snaps and a tackle on 4.2% of snaps under Pettine.
Gipson was impactful in some fashion on 7% of his snaps under Chud/Shumur, and 5.4% under Pettine thus far. And before you call this a "spin", per snap impact is a small part of the algorithm that is used to determine salaries on some daily fantasy sites, and I'm sure it's also utilized for rankings and such.
Gipson's season thus far has been forgetful at the very best - which is why he deserves to be on the list of players having their worst year under Pettine.
Tramon
I'm not sure where you're seeing the opposing QBR and TD's allowed statistic, so I can't comment on that...but if you're comparing the 8 TD's he let as a defensive back in Green Bay with the two he's allowed so far this season...that is hilarious to me. As a matter of fact, I have no idea what reference point you're using at all with those stats. Is that per season? Is that all of his seasons aggregated for each team? You gave a very small, very incomplete slice of statistics with no reference point and then expected that to be some end-all, be-all proof.
So, instead, I'll just post the stats from every one of his seasons as a pro.
2007 | 1 INT | 0 TD | 4 passes defended | 16 tck. |
2008 | 5 INT | 0 TD | 14 passes defended | 52 tck. |
2009 | 4 INT | 0 TD | 14 passes defended | 46 tck. |
2010 | 6 INT | 0 TD | 20 passes defended | 50 tck. |
2011 | 4 INT | 1 TD | 19 passes defended | 53 tck. |
2012 | 2 INT | 0 TD | 15 passes defended | 52 tck. |
2013 | 3 INT | 0 TD | 14 passes defended | 61 tck. |
2014 | 3 INT | 0 TD | 14 passes defended | 65 tck. |
2015 | 1 INT | 0 TD | 8 passes defended | 46 tck.
The only time he's had performance this poor was his rookie season - when he was a third CB behind Woodson and Harris and played sparingly. Right now, he's averaging .08 INT and .66 tackles per game - both of which are his lowest per game numbers in his career as a starter. And all of this despite the fact that he's played 96.89% of snaps.
So he's played nearly every snap, yet is performing at the lowest level he ever has in his career....like I said.
Starks
Right off the bat, you're already wrong. Starks has played, and excelled, in both the 4-3 and the 3-4. He was a 3-4 defensive end throughout his career in Tennessee, then moved to Miami where he earned a Pro Bowl nod as a 4-3 DE and then again as a 4-3 DT. He's played essentially every position along the defensive line in multiple schemes and that was the main reason we targeted him in FA.
But, as you say, he's old. So let's compare the last three years of his career...since his last Pro Bowl. This way, we'll get the best picture of his impact without having all of those pesky "good stats" in the way.
2013 | 36 tck. | 4.0 sack | 7 TFL | 728 snaps | 63.58%
2014 | 19 tck. | 4.5 sack | 6 TFL | 541 snaps | 51.09%
2015 | 10 tck. | 1 sack | 3 TFL | 381 snaps | 43.94%
That's a tackle on only 2% of snaps this year, compared to 5% in 2013. That's a sack on .2% of his snaps, compared to .8% last year. Yet another of a player being underutilized this year.
Au contraire, you say that I don't look at the stats. I say that you're cherry picking stats to make your argument and then offering them in a slice to make yourself look good. Point of the matter is that we've never spent so much on a side of the ball and seen such a bad return. You can make any argument you want to try and justify it but, at the end of the day, O'Neil is just a poor defensive coordinator and has players that contributed up until last year and still can't do anything with them.
Our defensive ranking, and the fact that you're one of only a handful of people defending him, should help you open your eyes. But you can continue to be blind and defend a guy who's not doing much of anything all you want. I'm done with it. Next year, you'll probably be just as gung-ho against our new DC just because he's not your boy O'Neil.
. Next year, you'll probably be just as gung-ho against our new DC just because he's not your boy O'Neil.
Ill add this TCPO.....it's comments like this that I work hard to avoid....and part of the reason Id rather not debate guys like you...
Cause it always has to come to some kind of personal jab and massive sweeping assumptions like "Oneill is your boy" or that Ill attack the new guy because I didnt want him....cause Ive never done that and its not my MO(but, since we're assuming things, it's probably yours)....instead I just try to talk football and usually agree to disagree(sans the jabs)....
Sometimes you have decent takes, but almost as often, you're just kinda nasty...
So...share your "my way or the highway" thoughts elsewhere, cause Im not interested in debating people that have ZERO interest in analysis and only care about being right or supporting their position.....and, to me, listing 5 guys who you think have played a little worse does not make a strong argument to fire a whole staff....
1) Im not an agenda guy, so no matter who our DC is....Ill support him
2) Oneill is NOT my guy and I have advocated several times here that Id accept firing him(and several other position coaches)...
Just think Pett and Farmer deserve another year....and Starks, Traymon and Krugers stats aint gonna change that....
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. Next year, you'll probably be just as gung-ho against our new DC just because he's not your boy O'Neil.
Ill add this TCPO.....it's comments like this that I work hard to avoid....and part of the reason Id rather not debate guys like you...
Cause it always has to come to some kind of personal jab and massive sweeping assumptions like "Oneill is your boy" or that Ill attack the new guy because I didnt want him....cause Ive never done that and its not my MO(but, since we're assuming things, it's probably yours)....instead I just try to talk football and usually agree to disagree(sans the jabs)....
Sometimes you have decent takes, but almost as often, you're just kinda nasty...
So...share your "my way or the highway" thoughts elsewhere, cause Im not interested in debating people that have ZERO interest in analysis and only care about being right or supporting their position.....and, to me, listing 5 guys who you think have played a little worse does not make a strong argument to fire a whole staff....
1) Im not an agenda guy, so no matter who our DC is....Ill support him
2) Oneill is NOT my guy and I have advocated several times here that Id accept firing him(and several other position coaches)...
Just think Pett and Farmer deserve another year....and Starks, Traymon and Krugers stats aint gonna change that....
Ill add this TCPO.....it's comments like this that I work hard to avoid....and part of the reason Id rather not debate guys like you...
Cause it always has to come to some kind of personal jab and massive sweeping assumptions like "Oneill is your boy" or that Ill attack the new guy because I didnt want him....cause Ive never done that and its not my MO(but, since we're assuming things, it's probably yours)....instead I just try to talk football and usually agree to disagree(sans the jabs)....
Sometimes you have decent takes, but almost as often, you're just kinda nasty...
So...share your "my way or the highway" thoughts elsewhere, cause Im not interested in debating people that have ZERO interest in analysis and only care about being right or supporting their position.....and, to me, listing 5 guys who you think have played a little worse does not make a strong argument to fire a whole staff....
1) Im not an agenda guy, so no matter who our DC is....Ill support him
2) Oneill is NOT my guy and I have advocated several times here that Id accept firing him(and several other position coaches)...
Just think Pett and Farmer deserve another year....and Starks, Traymon and Krugers stats aint gonna change that....
So, basically...once I pulled stats that were counter to your argument, you tried to switch to another argument ( oh, he's old. oh, he was never a starter in Baltimore so his stats aren't comparable, oh, i'm not gonna go far back and look).
The thing is...I showed you pure, objective analysis. And it didn't jibe with your point, so then you went the subjective route of calling out a guy because he didn't start or comparing the system of GB with CLE. Fact of the matter is that these guys were more impactful for the teams they played for even last year, then come here and suck hind teat. The numbers back that up, each players is less impactful per snap.
The thing is, I don't necessarily disagree with you about Pettine. I don't dislike Pettine, I think he's a rookie HC and he's made a handful of mistakes - including hanging on to a defensive coordinator who is just flat out terrible at his job. As a pure HC, Pettine might actually be really good, he's stoic enough and level-headed enough to possibly last for a while.
But his time management, his utilization of the players he has, and the recent comments seemingly trying to throw a divide into the FO have all rubbed me the wrong way.
He doesn't want Gilbert anymore because he's immature? That's fine. But don't bury the guy on the bench without giving him a chance to at least improve his stock. I guarantee that Gilbert goes to another team and can start within a year. Why do we take a guy who's an All American tackle and center, and then play him at guard? Why do we not even dress a veteran WR when we were already thin at the position and then experienced injuries?
Things like that - they reek of an ego battle and Pettine hasn't done enough to earn an inflated ego yet.
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Ill add this TCPO.....it's comments like this that I work hard to avoid....and part of the reason Id rather not debate guys like you...
Cause it always has to come to some kind of personal jab and massive sweeping assumptions like "Oneill is your boy" or that Ill attack the new guy because I didnt want him....cause Ive never done that and its not my MO(but, since we're assuming things, it's probably yours)....instead I just try to talk football and usually agree to disagree(sans the jabs)....
Sometimes you have decent takes, but almost as often, you're just kinda nasty...
So...share your "my way or the highway" thoughts elsewhere, cause Im not interested in debating people that have ZERO interest in analysis and only care about being right or supporting their position.....and, to me, listing 5 guys who you think have played a little worse does not make a strong argument to fire a whole staff....
1) Im not an agenda guy, so no matter who our DC is....Ill support him
2) Oneill is NOT my guy and I have advocated several times here that Id accept firing him(and several other position coaches)...
Just think Pett and Farmer deserve another year....and Starks, Traymon and Krugers stats aint gonna change that....
So, basically...once I pulled stats that were counter to your argument, you tried to switch to another argument ( oh, he's old. oh, he was never a starter in Baltimore so his stats aren't comparable, oh, i'm not gonna go far back and look).
The thing is...I showed you pure, objective analysis. And it didn't jibe with your point, so then you went the subjective route of calling out a guy because he didn't start or comparing the system of GB with CLE. Fact of the matter is that these guys were more impactful for the teams they played for even last year, then come here and suck hind teat. The numbers back that up, each players is less impactful per snap.
The thing is, I don't necessarily disagree with you about Pettine. I don't dislike Pettine, I think he's a rookie HC and he's made a handful of mistakes - including hanging on to a defensive coordinator who is just flat out terrible at his job. As a pure HC, Pettine might actually be really good, he's stoic enough and level-headed enough to possibly last for a while.
But his time management, his utilization of the players he has, and the recent comments seemingly trying to throw a divide into the FO have all rubbed me the wrong way.
He doesn't want Gilbert anymore because he's immature? That's fine. But don't bury the guy on the bench without giving him a chance to at least improve his stock. I guarantee that Gilbert goes to another team and can start within a year. Why do we take a guy who's an All American tackle and center, and then play him at guard? Why do we not even dress a veteran WR when we were already thin at the position and then experienced injuries?
Things like that - they reek of an ego battle and Pettine hasn't done enough to earn an inflated ego yet.
So, basically...once I pulled stats that were counter to your argument, you tried to switch to another argument ( oh, he's old. oh, he was never a starter in Baltimore so his stats aren't comparable, oh, i'm not gonna go far back and look).
No, not really.....I just know how and where my #'s came from, so Im comfortable that they are correct and sliced fairly....cause we all can twist em any way we want, right?
Fact of the matter is that these guys were more impactful for the teams they played for even last year, then come here and suck hind teat. The numbers back that up, each players is less impactful per snap.
Well just have to agree to disagree on this one....
The thing is, I don't necessarily disagree with you about Pettine. I don't dislike Pettine, I think he's a rookie HC and he's made a handful of mistakes - including hanging on to a defensive coordinator who is just flat out terrible at his job. As a pure HC, Pettine might actually be really good, he's stoic enough and level-headed enough to possibly last for a while.
Yet, you fight to have him fired or go after those who protect him?.....all while defending Farmer to the bone.....smh....
Things like that - they reek of an ego battle and Pettine hasn't done enough to earn an inflated ego yet.
And I believe he deserves the chance to do just that.....
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So, basically...once I pulled stats that were counter to your argument, you tried to switch to another argument ( oh, he's old. oh, he was never a starter in Baltimore so his stats aren't comparable, oh, i'm not gonna go far back and look).
No, not really.....I just know how and where my #'s came from, so Im comfortable that they are correct and sliced fairly....cause we all can twist em any way we want, right?
Fact of the matter is that these guys were more impactful for the teams they played for even last year, then come here and suck hind teat. The numbers back that up, each players is less impactful per snap.
Well just have to agree to disagree on this one....
The thing is, I don't necessarily disagree with you about Pettine. I don't dislike Pettine, I think he's a rookie HC and he's made a handful of mistakes - including hanging on to a defensive coordinator who is just flat out terrible at his job. As a pure HC, Pettine might actually be really good, he's stoic enough and level-headed enough to possibly last for a while.
Yet, you fight to have him fired or go after those who protect him?.....all while defending Farmer to the bone.....smh....
Things like that - they reek of an ego battle and Pettine hasn't done enough to earn an inflated ego yet.
And I believe he deserves the chance to do just that.....
So, basically...once I pulled stats that were counter to your argument, you tried to switch to another argument ( oh, he's old. oh, he was never a starter in Baltimore so his stats aren't comparable, oh, i'm not gonna go far back and look).
No, not really.....I just know how and where my #'s came from, so Im comfortable that they are correct and sliced fairly....cause we all can twist em any way we want, right?
Fact of the matter is that these guys were more impactful for the teams they played for even last year, then come here and suck hind teat. The numbers back that up, each players is less impactful per snap.
Well just have to agree to disagree on this one....
The thing is, I don't necessarily disagree with you about Pettine. I don't dislike Pettine, I think he's a rookie HC and he's made a handful of mistakes - including hanging on to a defensive coordinator who is just flat out terrible at his job. As a pure HC, Pettine might actually be really good, he's stoic enough and level-headed enough to possibly last for a while.
Yet, you fight to have him fired or go after those who protect him?.....all while defending Farmer to the bone.....smh....
Things like that - they reek of an ego battle and Pettine hasn't done enough to earn an inflated ego yet.
And I believe he deserves the chance to do just that.....
Continuity for continuity's sake is what I fight against.
If the team can show marked improvement over these last few weeks, then I think he deserves the chance to possibly stay. But up until last week, we had seen nothing but regression since our winning streak from last season. And despite all of your conjecture about this being a worse team than it was last year, it's a more talented team on paper.
It's up to the coaches to turn paper into on field production.
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TC,
You are still mischaracterizing Mud's argument.
As for bringing in our 2014 collapse, its causes were clearly different from the current season's causes. In 2014 it was QB play. For 2015 I think Mud has successfully made a case that Haden's injury limited performance has been the lynchpin.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
TC,
You are still mischaracterizing Mud's argument.
As for bringing in our 2014 collapse, its causes were clearly different from the current season's causes. In 2014 it was QB play. For 2015 I think Mud has successfully made a case that Haden's injury limited performance has been the lynchpin.
TC,
You are still mischaracterizing Mud's argument.
As for bringing in our 2014 collapse, its causes were clearly different from the current season's causes. In 2014 it was QB play. For 2015 I think Mud has successfully made a case that Haden's injury limited performance has been the lynchpin.
I'm sure there is a case to be made there.
And that is one of my biggest pet peeves with our defense as a whole. There's been a "yeah, but" for two years now. If the success of the defense in hinging on all eleven players being healthy for all sixteen games, then it's not going to be a successful defense. Injuries will happen, and losing our #1 CB shouldn't wreck the entire defense.
Not that it could have fallen much further than where it was last year anyway.
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TC,
You are still mischaracterizing Mud's argument.
As for bringing in our 2014 collapse, its causes were clearly different from the current season's causes. In 2014 it was QB play. For 2015 I think Mud has successfully made a case that Haden's injury limited performance has been the lynchpin.
I'm sure there is a case to be made there.
And that is one of my biggest pet peeves with our defense as a whole. There's been a "yeah, but" for two years now. If the success of the defense in hinging on all eleven players being healthy for all sixteen games, then it's not going to be a successful defense. Injuries will happen, and losing our #1 CB shouldn't wreck the entire defense.
Not that it could have fallen much further than where it was last year anyway.
Or the year before that.Not that it could have fallen much further than where it was last year anyway.
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Or the year before that.Not that it could have fallen much further than where it was last year anyway.
Or the year before that.
Weren't we a top ten defense in 2013?
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In 2013 the Browns were ranked 24th in total defense.
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In 2013 the Browns were ranked 24th in total defense.
I see 9th...In 2013 the Browns were ranked 24th in total defense.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Canton's list went from worst to first. The lists are in agreement.
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I see 9th...In 2013 the Browns were ranked 24th in total defense.
15th against the run. . .
25th against the pass. . .
24th in total defense. . .
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15th against the run. . .
25th against the pass. . .
24th in total defense. . .
15th against the run. . .
25th against the pass. . .
24th in total defense. . .
Again, for whatever reason that list is backward so the "32nd" ranked team (the Seahawks) was actually the best in total defense. The Browns were absolutely ranked 9th overall defensively last season.
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Canton... the icon showing "Yds/G" for each of your lists has a down arrow directly to the left of it.
Try clicking on "Yds/G" until the arrow points up.
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Canton... the icon showing "Yds/G" for each of your lists has a down arrow directly to the left of it.
Try clicking on "Yds/G" until the arrow points up.
Canton... the icon showing "Yds/G" for each of your lists has a down arrow directly to the left of it.
Try clicking on "Yds/G" until the arrow points up.
Pro Football Reference has them as the 23rd ranked defense.
No matter how you slice it, they were not a defensive juggernaut in 2013 (which is my point).
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney
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