Lets look at the D.....last year/this year
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. Next year, you'll probably be just as gung-ho against our new DC just because he's not your boy O'Neil.
Ill add this TCPO.....it's comments like this that I work hard to avoid....and part of the reason Id rather not debate guys like you...
Cause it always has to come to some kind of personal jab and massive sweeping assumptions like "Oneill is your boy" or that Ill attack the new guy because I didnt want him....cause Ive never done that and its not my MO(but, since we're assuming things, it's probably yours)....instead I just try to talk football and usually agree to disagree(sans the jabs)....
Sometimes you have decent takes, but almost as often, you're just kinda nasty...
So...share your "my way or the highway" thoughts elsewhere, cause Im not interested in debating people that have ZERO interest in analysis and only care about being right or supporting their position.....and, to me, listing 5 guys who you think have played a little worse does not make a strong argument to fire a whole staff....
1) Im not an agenda guy, so no matter who our DC is....Ill support him
2) Oneill is NOT my guy and I have advocated several times here that Id accept firing him(and several other position coaches)...
Just think Pett and Farmer deserve another year....and Starks, Traymon and Krugers stats aint gonna change that....
Ill add this TCPO.....it's comments like this that I work hard to avoid....and part of the reason Id rather not debate guys like you...
Cause it always has to come to some kind of personal jab and massive sweeping assumptions like "Oneill is your boy" or that Ill attack the new guy because I didnt want him....cause Ive never done that and its not my MO(but, since we're assuming things, it's probably yours)....instead I just try to talk football and usually agree to disagree(sans the jabs)....
Sometimes you have decent takes, but almost as often, you're just kinda nasty...
So...share your "my way or the highway" thoughts elsewhere, cause Im not interested in debating people that have ZERO interest in analysis and only care about being right or supporting their position.....and, to me, listing 5 guys who you think have played a little worse does not make a strong argument to fire a whole staff....
1) Im not an agenda guy, so no matter who our DC is....Ill support him
2) Oneill is NOT my guy and I have advocated several times here that Id accept firing him(and several other position coaches)...
Just think Pett and Farmer deserve another year....and Starks, Traymon and Krugers stats aint gonna change that....
So, basically...once I pulled stats that were counter to your argument, you tried to switch to another argument ( oh, he's old. oh, he was never a starter in Baltimore so his stats aren't comparable, oh, i'm not gonna go far back and look).
The thing is...I showed you pure, objective analysis. And it didn't jibe with your point, so then you went the subjective route of calling out a guy because he didn't start or comparing the system of GB with CLE. Fact of the matter is that these guys were more impactful for the teams they played for even last year, then come here and suck hind teat. The numbers back that up, each players is less impactful per snap.
The thing is, I don't necessarily disagree with you about Pettine. I don't dislike Pettine, I think he's a rookie HC and he's made a handful of mistakes - including hanging on to a defensive coordinator who is just flat out terrible at his job. As a pure HC, Pettine might actually be really good, he's stoic enough and level-headed enough to possibly last for a while.
But his time management, his utilization of the players he has, and the recent comments seemingly trying to throw a divide into the FO have all rubbed me the wrong way.
He doesn't want Gilbert anymore because he's immature? That's fine. But don't bury the guy on the bench without giving him a chance to at least improve his stock. I guarantee that Gilbert goes to another team and can start within a year. Why do we take a guy who's an All American tackle and center, and then play him at guard? Why do we not even dress a veteran WR when we were already thin at the position and then experienced injuries?
Things like that - they reek of an ego battle and Pettine hasn't done enough to earn an inflated ego yet.
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Ill add this TCPO.....it's comments like this that I work hard to avoid....and part of the reason Id rather not debate guys like you...
Cause it always has to come to some kind of personal jab and massive sweeping assumptions like "Oneill is your boy" or that Ill attack the new guy because I didnt want him....cause Ive never done that and its not my MO(but, since we're assuming things, it's probably yours)....instead I just try to talk football and usually agree to disagree(sans the jabs)....
Sometimes you have decent takes, but almost as often, you're just kinda nasty...
So...share your "my way or the highway" thoughts elsewhere, cause Im not interested in debating people that have ZERO interest in analysis and only care about being right or supporting their position.....and, to me, listing 5 guys who you think have played a little worse does not make a strong argument to fire a whole staff....
1) Im not an agenda guy, so no matter who our DC is....Ill support him
2) Oneill is NOT my guy and I have advocated several times here that Id accept firing him(and several other position coaches)...
Just think Pett and Farmer deserve another year....and Starks, Traymon and Krugers stats aint gonna change that....
So, basically...once I pulled stats that were counter to your argument, you tried to switch to another argument ( oh, he's old. oh, he was never a starter in Baltimore so his stats aren't comparable, oh, i'm not gonna go far back and look).
The thing is...I showed you pure, objective analysis. And it didn't jibe with your point, so then you went the subjective route of calling out a guy because he didn't start or comparing the system of GB with CLE. Fact of the matter is that these guys were more impactful for the teams they played for even last year, then come here and suck hind teat. The numbers back that up, each players is less impactful per snap.
The thing is, I don't necessarily disagree with you about Pettine. I don't dislike Pettine, I think he's a rookie HC and he's made a handful of mistakes - including hanging on to a defensive coordinator who is just flat out terrible at his job. As a pure HC, Pettine might actually be really good, he's stoic enough and level-headed enough to possibly last for a while.
But his time management, his utilization of the players he has, and the recent comments seemingly trying to throw a divide into the FO have all rubbed me the wrong way.
He doesn't want Gilbert anymore because he's immature? That's fine. But don't bury the guy on the bench without giving him a chance to at least improve his stock. I guarantee that Gilbert goes to another team and can start within a year. Why do we take a guy who's an All American tackle and center, and then play him at guard? Why do we not even dress a veteran WR when we were already thin at the position and then experienced injuries?
Things like that - they reek of an ego battle and Pettine hasn't done enough to earn an inflated ego yet.
So, basically...once I pulled stats that were counter to your argument, you tried to switch to another argument ( oh, he's old. oh, he was never a starter in Baltimore so his stats aren't comparable, oh, i'm not gonna go far back and look).
No, not really.....I just know how and where my #'s came from, so Im comfortable that they are correct and sliced fairly....cause we all can twist em any way we want, right?
Fact of the matter is that these guys were more impactful for the teams they played for even last year, then come here and suck hind teat. The numbers back that up, each players is less impactful per snap.
Well just have to agree to disagree on this one....
The thing is, I don't necessarily disagree with you about Pettine. I don't dislike Pettine, I think he's a rookie HC and he's made a handful of mistakes - including hanging on to a defensive coordinator who is just flat out terrible at his job. As a pure HC, Pettine might actually be really good, he's stoic enough and level-headed enough to possibly last for a while.
Yet, you fight to have him fired or go after those who protect him?.....all while defending Farmer to the bone.....smh....
Things like that - they reek of an ego battle and Pettine hasn't done enough to earn an inflated ego yet.
And I believe he deserves the chance to do just that.....
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So, basically...once I pulled stats that were counter to your argument, you tried to switch to another argument ( oh, he's old. oh, he was never a starter in Baltimore so his stats aren't comparable, oh, i'm not gonna go far back and look).
No, not really.....I just know how and where my #'s came from, so Im comfortable that they are correct and sliced fairly....cause we all can twist em any way we want, right?
Fact of the matter is that these guys were more impactful for the teams they played for even last year, then come here and suck hind teat. The numbers back that up, each players is less impactful per snap.
Well just have to agree to disagree on this one....
The thing is, I don't necessarily disagree with you about Pettine. I don't dislike Pettine, I think he's a rookie HC and he's made a handful of mistakes - including hanging on to a defensive coordinator who is just flat out terrible at his job. As a pure HC, Pettine might actually be really good, he's stoic enough and level-headed enough to possibly last for a while.
Yet, you fight to have him fired or go after those who protect him?.....all while defending Farmer to the bone.....smh....
Things like that - they reek of an ego battle and Pettine hasn't done enough to earn an inflated ego yet.
And I believe he deserves the chance to do just that.....
So, basically...once I pulled stats that were counter to your argument, you tried to switch to another argument ( oh, he's old. oh, he was never a starter in Baltimore so his stats aren't comparable, oh, i'm not gonna go far back and look).
No, not really.....I just know how and where my #'s came from, so Im comfortable that they are correct and sliced fairly....cause we all can twist em any way we want, right?
Fact of the matter is that these guys were more impactful for the teams they played for even last year, then come here and suck hind teat. The numbers back that up, each players is less impactful per snap.
Well just have to agree to disagree on this one....
The thing is, I don't necessarily disagree with you about Pettine. I don't dislike Pettine, I think he's a rookie HC and he's made a handful of mistakes - including hanging on to a defensive coordinator who is just flat out terrible at his job. As a pure HC, Pettine might actually be really good, he's stoic enough and level-headed enough to possibly last for a while.
Yet, you fight to have him fired or go after those who protect him?.....all while defending Farmer to the bone.....smh....
Things like that - they reek of an ego battle and Pettine hasn't done enough to earn an inflated ego yet.
And I believe he deserves the chance to do just that.....
Continuity for continuity's sake is what I fight against.
If the team can show marked improvement over these last few weeks, then I think he deserves the chance to possibly stay. But up until last week, we had seen nothing but regression since our winning streak from last season. And despite all of your conjecture about this being a worse team than it was last year, it's a more talented team on paper.
It's up to the coaches to turn paper into on field production.
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TC,
You are still mischaracterizing Mud's argument.
As for bringing in our 2014 collapse, its causes were clearly different from the current season's causes. In 2014 it was QB play. For 2015 I think Mud has successfully made a case that Haden's injury limited performance has been the lynchpin.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
TC,
You are still mischaracterizing Mud's argument.
As for bringing in our 2014 collapse, its causes were clearly different from the current season's causes. In 2014 it was QB play. For 2015 I think Mud has successfully made a case that Haden's injury limited performance has been the lynchpin.
TC,
You are still mischaracterizing Mud's argument.
As for bringing in our 2014 collapse, its causes were clearly different from the current season's causes. In 2014 it was QB play. For 2015 I think Mud has successfully made a case that Haden's injury limited performance has been the lynchpin.
I'm sure there is a case to be made there.
And that is one of my biggest pet peeves with our defense as a whole. There's been a "yeah, but" for two years now. If the success of the defense in hinging on all eleven players being healthy for all sixteen games, then it's not going to be a successful defense. Injuries will happen, and losing our #1 CB shouldn't wreck the entire defense.
Not that it could have fallen much further than where it was last year anyway.
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TC,
You are still mischaracterizing Mud's argument.
As for bringing in our 2014 collapse, its causes were clearly different from the current season's causes. In 2014 it was QB play. For 2015 I think Mud has successfully made a case that Haden's injury limited performance has been the lynchpin.
I'm sure there is a case to be made there.
And that is one of my biggest pet peeves with our defense as a whole. There's been a "yeah, but" for two years now. If the success of the defense in hinging on all eleven players being healthy for all sixteen games, then it's not going to be a successful defense. Injuries will happen, and losing our #1 CB shouldn't wreck the entire defense.
Not that it could have fallen much further than where it was last year anyway.
Or the year before that.Not that it could have fallen much further than where it was last year anyway.
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Or the year before that.Not that it could have fallen much further than where it was last year anyway.
Or the year before that.
Weren't we a top ten defense in 2013?
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In 2013 the Browns were ranked 24th in total defense.
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In 2013 the Browns were ranked 24th in total defense.
I see 9th...In 2013 the Browns were ranked 24th in total defense.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Canton's list went from worst to first. The lists are in agreement.
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I see 9th...In 2013 the Browns were ranked 24th in total defense.
15th against the run. . .
25th against the pass. . .
24th in total defense. . .
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15th against the run. . .
25th against the pass. . .
24th in total defense. . .
15th against the run. . .
25th against the pass. . .
24th in total defense. . .
Again, for whatever reason that list is backward so the "32nd" ranked team (the Seahawks) was actually the best in total defense. The Browns were absolutely ranked 9th overall defensively last season.
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Canton... the icon showing "Yds/G" for each of your lists has a down arrow directly to the left of it.
Try clicking on "Yds/G" until the arrow points up.
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Canton... the icon showing "Yds/G" for each of your lists has a down arrow directly to the left of it.
Try clicking on "Yds/G" until the arrow points up.
Canton... the icon showing "Yds/G" for each of your lists has a down arrow directly to the left of it.
Try clicking on "Yds/G" until the arrow points up.
Pro Football Reference has them as the 23rd ranked defense.
No matter how you slice it, they were not a defensive juggernaut in 2013 (which is my point).
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
well, another derailed thread.....oh well.....looks like folks aren;t really interested in considering any possibilities but what they already think.......
None the less, on the defense rankings(which have zero to do with op, but we need to debate it anyhow)ya'll are both right, cause you're just using the stat that benefits your argument....
To me....offense AND defense are about SCORING.....not yards......I never did get why so many think yards are everything when its points that win or lose....
So here are the rankings ....points allowed / NFL rank.........Yds per gm/ NFL rank
2013 25.4 ppg / 23rd.........................332 ypg / 9th........so, 9th in yards and 23rd in points......
2014 21.1 ppg / 9th...........................366 ypg / 23rd......so, 23rd in yards and 9th in points...
So, looks like a perfect switch up..,,,Chuds D gave up LESS yards and MORE points.....
.......................................................Pettines D gave up LESS points and MORE yards.....
Now....Choose your poison.....points or yards.....Personally, I prefer less points.....and, oddly enough, the team with less points was 7-9.....the team with less yards was 4-12......(so slice that up)
And THIS year we are exactly one TD worse......and exactly 1 TD worse on the passing side.....and if you read the OP, you'd already know this......
Carry on....
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well, another derailed thread.....oh well.....looks like folks aren;t really interested in considering any possibilities but what they already think.......
None the less, on the defense rankings(which have zero to do with op, but we need to debate it anyhow)ya'll are both right, cause you're just using the stat that benefits your argument....
To me....offense AND defense are about SCORING.....not yards......I never did get why so many think yards are everything when its points that win or lose....
So here are the rankings ....points allowed / NFL rank.........Yds per gm/ NFL rank
2013 25.4 ppg / 23rd.........................332 ypg / 9th........so, 9th in yards and 23rd in points......
2014 21.1 ppg / 9th...........................366 ypg / 23rd......so, 23rd in yards and 9th in points...
So, looks like a perfect switch up..,,,Chuds D gave up LESS yards and MORE points.....
.......................................................Pettines D gave up LESS points and MORE yards.....
Now....Choose your poison.....points or yards.....Personally, I prefer less points.....and, oddly enough, the team with less points was 7-9.....the team with less yards was 4-12......(so slice that up)
And THIS year we are exactly one TD worse......and exactly 1 TD worse on the passing side.....and if you read the OP, you'd already know this......
Carry on....
I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric.well, another derailed thread.....oh well.....looks like folks aren;t really interested in considering any possibilities but what they already think.......
None the less, on the defense rankings(which have zero to do with op, but we need to debate it anyhow)ya'll are both right, cause you're just using the stat that benefits your argument....
To me....offense AND defense are about SCORING.....not yards......I never did get why so many think yards are everything when its points that win or lose....
So here are the rankings ....points allowed / NFL rank.........Yds per gm/ NFL rank
2013 25.4 ppg / 23rd.........................332 ypg / 9th........so, 9th in yards and 23rd in points......
2014 21.1 ppg / 9th...........................366 ypg / 23rd......so, 23rd in yards and 9th in points...
So, looks like a perfect switch up..,,,Chuds D gave up LESS yards and MORE points.....
.......................................................Pettines D gave up LESS points and MORE yards.....
Now....Choose your poison.....points or yards.....Personally, I prefer less points.....
And THIS year we are exactly one TD worse......and exactly 1 TD worse on the passing side.....and if you read the OP, you'd already know this......
Carry on....
Let's use the scenario following a turnover.
If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG.
The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points.
That's my only issue with using points as the metric.
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
Canton... the icon showing "Yds/G" for each of your lists has a down arrow directly to the left of it.
Try clicking on "Yds/G" until the arrow points up.
Pro Football Reference has them as the 23rd ranked defense.
No matter how you slice it, they were not a defensive juggernaut in 2013 (which is my point).
Pro Football Reference has them as the 23rd ranked defense.
No matter how you slice it, they were not a defensive juggernaut in 2013 (which is my point).
They have them as the 23rd ranking defense by points allowed.
They were ranked 9th in yards allowed. 8th in passing yards allowed. 15th in rushing yards allowed. 7th in penalty yards.
I can't tell if you're serious or you are trolling.
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I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric.well, another derailed thread.....oh well.....looks like folks aren;t really interested in considering any possibilities but what they already think.......
None the less, on the defense rankings(which have zero to do with op, but we need to debate it anyhow)ya'll are both right, cause you're just using the stat that benefits your argument....
To me....offense AND defense are about SCORING.....not yards......I never did get why so many think yards are everything when its points that win or lose....
So here are the rankings ....points allowed / NFL rank.........Yds per gm/ NFL rank
2013 25.4 ppg / 23rd.........................332 ypg / 9th........so, 9th in yards and 23rd in points......
2014 21.1 ppg / 9th...........................366 ypg / 23rd......so, 23rd in yards and 9th in points...
So, looks like a perfect switch up..,,,Chuds D gave up LESS yards and MORE points.....
.......................................................Pettines D gave up LESS points and MORE yards.....
Now....Choose your poison.....points or yards.....Personally, I prefer less points.....
And THIS year we are exactly one TD worse......and exactly 1 TD worse on the passing side.....and if you read the OP, you'd already know this......
Carry on....
Let's use the scenario following a turnover.
If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG.
The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points.
That's my only issue with using points as the metric.
I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric.
Let's use the scenario following a turnover.
If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG.
The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points.
That's my only issue with using points as the metric.
So if you're in favor of using yards as the metric, and we were 9th in yards...we're the 9th best defense.
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I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric.
Let's use the scenario following a turnover.
If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG.
The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points.
That's my only issue with using points as the metric.
So if you're in favor of using yards as the metric, and we were 9th in yards...we're the 9th best defense.
I'm using the numbers that best support my claim....you know the same thing you were doing with Mud.So if you're in favor of using yards as the metric, and we were 9th in yards...we're the 9th best defense.
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric.well, another derailed thread.....oh well.....looks like folks aren;t really interested in considering any possibilities but what they already think.......
None the less, on the defense rankings(which have zero to do with op, but we need to debate it anyhow)ya'll are both right, cause you're just using the stat that benefits your argument....
To me....offense AND defense are about SCORING.....not yards......I never did get why so many think yards are everything when its points that win or lose....
So here are the rankings ....points allowed / NFL rank.........Yds per gm/ NFL rank
2013 25.4 ppg / 23rd.........................332 ypg / 9th........so, 9th in yards and 23rd in points......
2014 21.1 ppg / 9th...........................366 ypg / 23rd......so, 23rd in yards and 9th in points...
So, looks like a perfect switch up..,,,Chuds D gave up LESS yards and MORE points.....
.......................................................Pettines D gave up LESS points and MORE yards.....
Now....Choose your poison.....points or yards.....Personally, I prefer less points.....
And THIS year we are exactly one TD worse......and exactly 1 TD worse on the passing side.....and if you read the OP, you'd already know this......
Carry on....
Let's use the scenario following a turnover.
If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG.
The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points.
That's my only issue with using points as the metric.
I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric.
Let's use the scenario following a turnover.
If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG.
The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points.
That's my only issue with using points as the metric.
However....I'd still rather have a defense that gives up tons of yards and not a lot of points. Defense allows an 80 yard drive but holds them to 3 points or forces a turnover inside the 20 is a better defense than the one that keeps giving up points.
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