Lets look at the D.....last year/this year
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TC,
You are still mischaracterizing Mud's argument.
As for bringing in our 2014 collapse, its causes were clearly different from the current season's causes. In 2014 it was QB play. For 2015 I think Mud has successfully made a case that Haden's injury limited performance has been the lynchpin.
I'm sure there is a case to be made there.
And that is one of my biggest pet peeves with our defense as a whole. There's been a "yeah, but" for two years now. If the success of the defense in hinging on all eleven players being healthy for all sixteen games, then it's not going to be a successful defense. Injuries will happen, and losing our #1 CB shouldn't wreck the entire defense.
Not that it could have fallen much further than where it was last year anyway.
Or the year before that.Not that it could have fallen much further than where it was last year anyway.
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Or the year before that.Not that it could have fallen much further than where it was last year anyway.
Or the year before that.
Weren't we a top ten defense in 2013?
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In 2013 the Browns were ranked 24th in total defense.
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In 2013 the Browns were ranked 24th in total defense.
I see 9th...In 2013 the Browns were ranked 24th in total defense.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Canton's list went from worst to first. The lists are in agreement.
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I see 9th...In 2013 the Browns were ranked 24th in total defense.
15th against the run. . .
25th against the pass. . .
24th in total defense. . .
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15th against the run. . .
25th against the pass. . .
24th in total defense. . .
15th against the run. . .
25th against the pass. . .
24th in total defense. . .
Again, for whatever reason that list is backward so the "32nd" ranked team (the Seahawks) was actually the best in total defense. The Browns were absolutely ranked 9th overall defensively last season.
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Canton... the icon showing "Yds/G" for each of your lists has a down arrow directly to the left of it.
Try clicking on "Yds/G" until the arrow points up.
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Canton... the icon showing "Yds/G" for each of your lists has a down arrow directly to the left of it.
Try clicking on "Yds/G" until the arrow points up.
Canton... the icon showing "Yds/G" for each of your lists has a down arrow directly to the left of it.
Try clicking on "Yds/G" until the arrow points up.
Pro Football Reference has them as the 23rd ranked defense.
No matter how you slice it, they were not a defensive juggernaut in 2013 (which is my point).
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
well, another derailed thread.....oh well.....looks like folks aren;t really interested in considering any possibilities but what they already think.......
None the less, on the defense rankings(which have zero to do with op, but we need to debate it anyhow)ya'll are both right, cause you're just using the stat that benefits your argument....
To me....offense AND defense are about SCORING.....not yards......I never did get why so many think yards are everything when its points that win or lose....
So here are the rankings ....points allowed / NFL rank.........Yds per gm/ NFL rank
2013 25.4 ppg / 23rd.........................332 ypg / 9th........so, 9th in yards and 23rd in points......
2014 21.1 ppg / 9th...........................366 ypg / 23rd......so, 23rd in yards and 9th in points...
So, looks like a perfect switch up..,,,Chuds D gave up LESS yards and MORE points.....
.......................................................Pettines D gave up LESS points and MORE yards.....
Now....Choose your poison.....points or yards.....Personally, I prefer less points.....and, oddly enough, the team with less points was 7-9.....the team with less yards was 4-12......(so slice that up)
And THIS year we are exactly one TD worse......and exactly 1 TD worse on the passing side.....and if you read the OP, you'd already know this......
Carry on....
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well, another derailed thread.....oh well.....looks like folks aren;t really interested in considering any possibilities but what they already think.......
None the less, on the defense rankings(which have zero to do with op, but we need to debate it anyhow)ya'll are both right, cause you're just using the stat that benefits your argument....
To me....offense AND defense are about SCORING.....not yards......I never did get why so many think yards are everything when its points that win or lose....
So here are the rankings ....points allowed / NFL rank.........Yds per gm/ NFL rank
2013 25.4 ppg / 23rd.........................332 ypg / 9th........so, 9th in yards and 23rd in points......
2014 21.1 ppg / 9th...........................366 ypg / 23rd......so, 23rd in yards and 9th in points...
So, looks like a perfect switch up..,,,Chuds D gave up LESS yards and MORE points.....
.......................................................Pettines D gave up LESS points and MORE yards.....
Now....Choose your poison.....points or yards.....Personally, I prefer less points.....and, oddly enough, the team with less points was 7-9.....the team with less yards was 4-12......(so slice that up)
And THIS year we are exactly one TD worse......and exactly 1 TD worse on the passing side.....and if you read the OP, you'd already know this......
Carry on....
I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric.well, another derailed thread.....oh well.....looks like folks aren;t really interested in considering any possibilities but what they already think.......
None the less, on the defense rankings(which have zero to do with op, but we need to debate it anyhow)ya'll are both right, cause you're just using the stat that benefits your argument....
To me....offense AND defense are about SCORING.....not yards......I never did get why so many think yards are everything when its points that win or lose....
So here are the rankings ....points allowed / NFL rank.........Yds per gm/ NFL rank
2013 25.4 ppg / 23rd.........................332 ypg / 9th........so, 9th in yards and 23rd in points......
2014 21.1 ppg / 9th...........................366 ypg / 23rd......so, 23rd in yards and 9th in points...
So, looks like a perfect switch up..,,,Chuds D gave up LESS yards and MORE points.....
.......................................................Pettines D gave up LESS points and MORE yards.....
Now....Choose your poison.....points or yards.....Personally, I prefer less points.....
And THIS year we are exactly one TD worse......and exactly 1 TD worse on the passing side.....and if you read the OP, you'd already know this......
Carry on....
Let's use the scenario following a turnover.
If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG.
The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points.
That's my only issue with using points as the metric.
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
Canton... the icon showing "Yds/G" for each of your lists has a down arrow directly to the left of it.
Try clicking on "Yds/G" until the arrow points up.
Pro Football Reference has them as the 23rd ranked defense.
No matter how you slice it, they were not a defensive juggernaut in 2013 (which is my point).
Pro Football Reference has them as the 23rd ranked defense.
No matter how you slice it, they were not a defensive juggernaut in 2013 (which is my point).
They have them as the 23rd ranking defense by points allowed.
They were ranked 9th in yards allowed. 8th in passing yards allowed. 15th in rushing yards allowed. 7th in penalty yards.
I can't tell if you're serious or you are trolling.
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I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric.well, another derailed thread.....oh well.....looks like folks aren;t really interested in considering any possibilities but what they already think.......
None the less, on the defense rankings(which have zero to do with op, but we need to debate it anyhow)ya'll are both right, cause you're just using the stat that benefits your argument....
To me....offense AND defense are about SCORING.....not yards......I never did get why so many think yards are everything when its points that win or lose....
So here are the rankings ....points allowed / NFL rank.........Yds per gm/ NFL rank
2013 25.4 ppg / 23rd.........................332 ypg / 9th........so, 9th in yards and 23rd in points......
2014 21.1 ppg / 9th...........................366 ypg / 23rd......so, 23rd in yards and 9th in points...
So, looks like a perfect switch up..,,,Chuds D gave up LESS yards and MORE points.....
.......................................................Pettines D gave up LESS points and MORE yards.....
Now....Choose your poison.....points or yards.....Personally, I prefer less points.....
And THIS year we are exactly one TD worse......and exactly 1 TD worse on the passing side.....and if you read the OP, you'd already know this......
Carry on....
Let's use the scenario following a turnover.
If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG.
The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points.
That's my only issue with using points as the metric.
I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric.
Let's use the scenario following a turnover.
If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG.
The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points.
That's my only issue with using points as the metric.
So if you're in favor of using yards as the metric, and we were 9th in yards...we're the 9th best defense.
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I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric.
Let's use the scenario following a turnover.
If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG.
The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points.
That's my only issue with using points as the metric.
So if you're in favor of using yards as the metric, and we were 9th in yards...we're the 9th best defense.
I'm using the numbers that best support my claim....you know the same thing you were doing with Mud.So if you're in favor of using yards as the metric, and we were 9th in yards...we're the 9th best defense.
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric.well, another derailed thread.....oh well.....looks like folks aren;t really interested in considering any possibilities but what they already think.......
None the less, on the defense rankings(which have zero to do with op, but we need to debate it anyhow)ya'll are both right, cause you're just using the stat that benefits your argument....
To me....offense AND defense are about SCORING.....not yards......I never did get why so many think yards are everything when its points that win or lose....
So here are the rankings ....points allowed / NFL rank.........Yds per gm/ NFL rank
2013 25.4 ppg / 23rd.........................332 ypg / 9th........so, 9th in yards and 23rd in points......
2014 21.1 ppg / 9th...........................366 ypg / 23rd......so, 23rd in yards and 9th in points...
So, looks like a perfect switch up..,,,Chuds D gave up LESS yards and MORE points.....
.......................................................Pettines D gave up LESS points and MORE yards.....
Now....Choose your poison.....points or yards.....Personally, I prefer less points.....
And THIS year we are exactly one TD worse......and exactly 1 TD worse on the passing side.....and if you read the OP, you'd already know this......
Carry on....
Let's use the scenario following a turnover.
If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG.
The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points.
That's my only issue with using points as the metric.
I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric.
Let's use the scenario following a turnover.
If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG.
The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points.
That's my only issue with using points as the metric.
However....I'd still rather have a defense that gives up tons of yards and not a lot of points. Defense allows an 80 yard drive but holds them to 3 points or forces a turnover inside the 20 is a better defense than the one that keeps giving up points.
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I've always been in favor of using yards as the defensive metric.
Let's use the scenario following a turnover.
If the Browns were to fumble the football on their own 20 yard line, and the opposition went on to score a TD or FG.
The defense in that situation gave up just a few yards, but the other team was able to score points.
That's my only issue with using points as the metric.
However....I'd still rather have a defense that gives up tons of yards and not a lot of points. Defense allows an 80 yard drive but holds them to 3 points or forces a turnover inside the 20 is a better defense than the one that keeps giving up points.
Right, there's an advantage and disadvantage of using either metric.However....I'd still rather have a defense that gives up tons of yards and not a lot of points. Defense allows an 80 yard drive but holds them to 3 points or forces a turnover inside the 20 is a better defense than the one that keeps giving up points.
However, I prefer to use points scored as a metric for measuring the effectiveness of an offense.
If they can move the ball 80 yards, and not score any points it really doesn't help them win the game.
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Right, there's an advantage and disadvantage of using either metric.However....I'd still rather have a defense that gives up tons of yards and not a lot of points. Defense allows an 80 yard drive but holds them to 3 points or forces a turnover inside the 20 is a better defense than the one that keeps giving up points.
However, I prefer to use points scored as a metric for measuring the effectiveness of an offense.
If they can move the ball 80 yards, and not score any points it really doesn't help them win the game.
Right, there's an advantage and disadvantage of using either metric.
However, I prefer to use points scored as a metric for measuring the effectiveness of an offense.
If they can move the ball 80 yards, and not score any points it really doesn't help them win the game.
Seems contradictory to me....but you're not wrong. We saw that offense for several games in a row I think this year.
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But, in the end, its points that win.....and if you look at the numbers, the teams that allow the fewest points win more than the teams that allow the fewest yards....with yards, anomalies happen.....not AS much with points....
Below are the top 5 D's against PTS and Yards....and the top 5 O's in scoring and yards.....Most of the team clearly belong and are playoff bound....(on both lists)...but there are basically 4 that dont fit(non play-off teams at the moment)....note that 3 outta 4(75%) show up on the yards list.....but only 1 shows up on Points......and that 1 may actually end up in the Play-offs....
So....based on yards....Teams like the Jets and Saints can end up at the topof the rankings, while still losing.....just like the Browns did with a bad defense in 2013...0f 2014.....etc.
But..based on points.... teams that control the scoring....both ways.....end up at the top of the rankings AND standings.....
Defense-PTS........................YDS.................Offense-PTS.............YDS...........
Broncos - 1st Broncos - 1st Panther- 1st Cardinals- 1st
Bengals - 1st Seahawks-2nd Cardinals- 1st Steelers - 2nd
Seahawks-2nd Panthers - 1st Patriots - 1st Patriots - 1st
Chiefs - 2nd Cardinals - 1st Bengals - 1st Saints - 4th
Panthers-1st Jets - 2nd Steelers - 2nd Seahawks - 2nd
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Canton... the icon showing "Yds/G" for each of your lists has a down arrow directly to the left of it.
Try clicking on "Yds/G" until the arrow points up.
Pro Football Reference has them as the 23rd ranked defense.
No matter how you slice it, they were not a defensive juggernaut in 2013 (which is my point).
Pro Football Reference has them as the 23rd ranked defense.
No matter how you slice it, they were not a defensive juggernaut in 2013 (which is my point).
This is scoring defense which is not the go-to metric of good defense.
Just admit you read the original chart incorrectly and move on.
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Points per drive is the best metric as it allows for offenses that score quickly.
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