Jonathan Paul Manziel
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Z, you can make stats look any way you want to. McCown was putting up numbers ok, but he was getting himself killed in the process. Very gutsy- and stupid. I think Manziel is one ahead of Josh in the win column too.
Regarding Bortles, he's had more starts, Teddy has Peterson, Carr has Crabtree and Cooper. (and a guy on defense named Mack)
The only fair comparison in my book is Mariotta, & they're just about even in the only stat that counts- wins. .
Don't give me any crap about Osweiler- he's sat behind Manning learning from the best for 4 years- and BTW, he has Sanders and Thomas to throw to- and a stud defense to bail him out. So, give Manziel another two seasons, Josh Gordon, and a #1 ranked defense and get back to me on that comparison.
Weren't you the guy just bitching about our sieve defense that gave up 30+ points a ton of games in a row? Like Manziel is responsible for a defense that's near the bottom in every category?
So the only stats that matter for QBs are wins and losses? That's stupid, but let's play along:
Manziel is 2-6. Beat two last place teams.
And having a bad defense is not an excuse for being a bad QB. It only makes the blowouts worse.
Here is how many points we have scored in the games Manziel has taken the majority of the snaps:
0,10,28, 10,9.24,13, 13
A little over 13 pts. per game, Only led us to more than one TD in 2 out of 8 games.
Sorry, but if you are looking for "wins", the 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens would be hard-pressed to win more than 3 of those starts.
Zombo
Zombo said:
So the only stats that matter for QBs are wins and losses? That's stupid, but let's play along:
Manziel is 2-6. Beat two last place teams.
And having a bad defense is not an excuse for being a bad QB. It only makes the blowouts worse.
Here is how many points we have scored in the games Manziel has taken the majority of the snaps:
0,10,28, 10,9.24,13, 13
A little over 13 pts. per game, Only led us to more than one TD in 2 out of 8 games.
Sorry, but if you are looking for "wins", the 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens would be hard-pressed to win more than 3 of those starts.
Zombo
Z, I'm really not defending Manziel, but those points #s just might be attributable to no weapons?
If the Browns decide to terminate the JFF experiment, it won't make me particularly sad.
I think I made my case in another thread. If you decide Manziel isn't the answer- just because you have a top five pick, doesn't mean you have to take a quarterback at all costs. Not if the value isn't there. I've pointed out the disaster cases. Russell, Griffin, Harrington. That would set us back even farther than sticking with Johnny boy. Just having a franchise qb isn't the automatic ticket to the Promised Land either, or you want to tell me guys like Philip Rivers, Matt Ryan, and Matt Stafford aren't?
If it was that damn easy to find the next franchise quarterback- every team would have one. I think we've tried.
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I'm going to have to double check the game stats, but I believe Mitchell Schwartz had more catches than Dwayne Bowe.
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Yeah convenient spot for a typo.
So anyway, To clean this up ... Osweiler's career yards/game is now 94.7, his yards per START is 246.8
Johnny's yards per start this year is 212.3 and career 173.2.
His Yards per start this year is lower than the yards per game of everybody else mentioned.
As for the Browns in 2015:
In the 7 games where McCown took the majority of the snaps, the Browns averaged 21.8 points per game and 290.1 passing yards per game.
In the 7 games where Manziel took the majority of the snaps, the Browns averaged 15.3 points per game and 195.5 passing yards per game.
If you guys are cool with giving up 6.5 points every week then, by all means, let's march on with Johnny next year.
I'm sure he'll start learning stuff.
Zombo
Thanks for updating.Zombo said:
So anyway, To clean this up ... Osweiler's career yards/game is now 94.7, his yards per START is 246.8
Johnny's yards per start this year is 212.3 and career 173.2.
His Yards per start this year is lower than the yards per game of everybody else mentioned.
As for the Browns in 2015:
In the 7 games where McCown took the majority of the snaps, the Browns averaged 21.8 points per game and 290.1 passing yards per game.
In the 7 games where Manziel took the majority of the snaps, the Browns averaged 15.3 points per game and 195.5 passing yards per game.
If you guys are cool with giving up 6.5 points every week then, by all means, let's march on with Johnny next year.
I'm sure he'll start learning stuff.
Zombo
Hey didn't you post this exact same thing a week or 2 weeks ago? NA you didn't but there is plenty of room on the bandwagon for ya.Manziel
Footwork - below avg
Arm strength - below avg
Accuracy - below avg
Ability to read defense - piss poor
Height - below avg
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Looks like Johnny's way of giving Browns fans the finger
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VesnaKociper said:
Holy Shit, you cunt holes are arguing as if it was me causing all the ruckus. I like it! Let me put in my two cents.
On Zombo - Or as I affectionately have called him, Zomblow :-)... For fuck's sake, the guy has a career, this shit isn't his job. Hell, I consider him a friend and he hasn't just pulled my threads, the sonofabitch has terminated my account a few times. What the hell are you whining about "Couch Pulls Out" ? Grow a set already.
Nobody here gets paid for football knowledge. We all have an asshole and we all have an opinion. We get paid and recognized equally for both.
Stan created the best haven for Browns fans to post messages that ever existed. Be glad that Zombo loves the Browns so much that he comes in here and deals with our childish bullshit.
On The Browns - For all our bitching about talent, the team has had enough to be competitive and within striking distance of a lot of games. I will say it again, a lot of the problem is in basic block, tackle, pass, catch, execute and make-no-penalties behavior. God knows I have stirred up my share of shit, but while this team stinks, it seems to me that draft picks alone aren't going to make the difference.
It is impossible that management can be so incompetent as to select nothing but poor talent. The A #1 priority with this team has nothing to do with draft picks, and positions or x's and 0's.....it has to do with team work, a standard philosophy and leadership to get everyone to buy into the program. Whatever values teams like The Pats, Steelers and other perennial winners adopt, that seems to me to be where the Browns foundation needs to start.
All this bullshit fighting over who we should have taken, who we should replace and who should play where, is just noise. How the fuck can anyone judge the talent level on this team when everyone involved, including management is operating in chaos?
On Manziel - If it were me, I would be inline with Zombo. I have seen enough of this guy. And you know, it doesn't mean that he might not straighten out and fly right for another team. That isn't the issue. The issue for me is this............. he has come to Cleveland and took a heaping shit on the fans, the heritage, the name and the good will of the team and the city. The issue for me is that he hasn't given his best.
The Browns need to set a standard and hold to it. You can't one day call a guy out, and the next day start him, then the next day pull him again. Until this franchise sets a standard, drafts, coaches and behaves according to that standard, the franchise will not be a quality product. I don't see how Manziel can ever be a leader of a franchise that adheres to such values.
On the backside, I will repeat myself, if coach Spitoon is going to play the kid, then play him for the year and don't be wishy-washy about it.
in the past was able to read between your lines....you've just honed your craft to a higher level.
100% agree with everything you just said.
well done sir.
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You all deserve to be the miserable pussies that you are
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Zombo said:
So the only stats that matter for QBs are wins and losses? That's stupid, but let's play along:
Manziel is 2-6. Beat two last place teams.
And having a bad defense is not an excuse for being a bad QB. It only makes the blowouts worse.
Here is how many points we have scored in the games Manziel has taken the majority of the snaps:
0,10,28, 10,9.24,13, 13
A little over 13 pts. per game, Only led us to more than one TD in 2 out of 8 games.
Sorry, but if you are looking for "wins", the 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens would be hard-pressed to win more than 3 of those starts.
Zombo
Z, I'm really not defending Manziel, but those points #s just might be attributable to no weapons?
If the Browns decide to terminate the JFF experiment, it won't make me particularly sad.
I think I made my case in another thread. If you decide Manziel isn't the answer- just because you have a top five pick, doesn't mean you have to take a quarterback at all costs. Not if the value isn't there. I've pointed out the disaster cases. Russell, Griffin, Harrington. That would set us back even farther than sticking with Johnny boy. Just having a franchise qb isn't the automatic ticket to the Promised Land either, or you want to tell me guys like Philip Rivers, Matt Ryan, and Matt Stafford aren't?
If it was that damn easy to find the next franchise quarterback- every team would have one. I think we've tried.
Z, I'm really not defending Manziel, but those points #s just might be attributable to no weapons?
You are back to my first excuse buffer in my first post.
We are right around 13 points per game when Manziel starts or has the majority of snaps over the past two years.
Hoyer in 2014 ... 21.3
McCown in 2015 ... 21.8
Johnny ... 13.1
Same team. Same weapons.
And I am even willing to throw 2014 out because Little Johnny forgot to practice n stuff.
But in 2015 ... 21.8 with McCown and 15.3 for Johnny
6.5 points a game.
I know you all want to give him another year, just like those that wanted to give Brady Quinn another year.
Can't you just look at him and see how far away he is and how improbable it is that he'll ever be a trusted franchise QB? I can. I'm not patting myself on the back or anything ... I don't want him to fail, I root for him like he's my son on Sundays. I even started him on playoff fantasy team down the stretch ... I'm just saying ... Can't you see it? He's got major passing issues.
If it was that damn easy to find the next franchise quarterback- every team would have one. I think we've tried.We have. And now, I'm saying ... it's time to try again.
Zombo
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Looks like Johnny's way of giving Browns fans the finger
Looks like Johnny's way of giving Browns fans the finger
Actually that's more than some "fans" deserve.
WSS
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The smartest thing I've ever seen you post...and it's still not very smart.
Oh gawd, if you liked my post, then it surely sucked
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VesnaKociper said:
Holy Shit, you cunt holes are arguing as if it was me causing all the ruckus. I like it! Let me put in my two cents.
On Zombo - Or as I affectionately have called him, Zomblow :-)... For fuck's sake, the guy has a career, this shit isn't his job. Hell, I consider him a friend and he hasn't just pulled my threads, the sonofabitch has terminated my account a few times. What the hell are you whining about "Couch Pulls Out" ? Grow a set already.
Nobody here gets paid for football knowledge. We all have an asshole and we all have an opinion. We get paid and recognized equally for both.
Stan created the best haven for Browns fans to post messages that ever existed. Be glad that Zombo loves the Browns so much that he comes in here and deals with our childish bullshit.
On The Browns - For all our bitching about talent, the team has had enough to be competitive and within striking distance of a lot of games. I will say it again, a lot of the problem is in basic block, tackle, pass, catch, execute and make-no-penalties behavior. God knows I have stirred up my share of shit, but while this team stinks, it seems to me that draft picks alone aren't going to make the difference.
It is impossible that management can be so incompetent as to select nothing but poor talent. The A #1 priority with this team has nothing to do with draft picks, and positions or x's and 0's.....it has to do with team work, a standard philosophy and leadership to get everyone to buy into the program. Whatever values teams like The Pats, Steelers and other perennial winners adopt, that seems to me to be where the Browns foundation needs to start.
All this bullshit fighting over who we should have taken, who we should replace and who should play where, is just noise. How the fuck can anyone judge the talent level on this team when everyone involved, including management is operating in chaos?
On Manziel - If it were me, I would be inline with Zombo. I have seen enough of this guy. And you know, it doesn't mean that he might not straighten out and fly right for another team. That isn't the issue. The issue for me is this............. he has come to Cleveland and took a heaping shit on the fans, the heritage, the name and the good will of the team and the city. The issue for me is that he hasn't given his best.
The Browns need to set a standard and hold to it. You can't one day call a guy out, and the next day start him, then the next day pull him again. Until this franchise sets a standard, drafts, coaches and behaves according to that standard, the franchise will not be a quality product. I don't see how Manziel can ever be a leader of a franchise that adheres to such values.
On the backside, I will repeat myself, if coach Spitoon is going to play the kid, then play him for the year and don't be wishy-washy about it.
in the past was able to read between your lines....you've just honed your craft to a higher level.
100% agree with everything you just said.
well done sir.
in the past was able to read between your lines....you've just honed your craft to a higher level.
100% agree with everything you just said.
well done sir.
Occasionally Mik- you get to see the good Ghoolie. It's a fun time. And BTW- I disagree with Zombo. The suck defense needs more help, talent, and coaching than the offense does. McCown may have put up better numbers than Manziel- but as I said- he's a backup for a reason. Doesn't pass the eye test, regardless of numbers. And he's not going to get any better. Personally, I'm tired of him standing back there like a pinata waiting, waiting, and WAITING to get busted up.
If Manziel is a backup, you build the team, and take your franchise qb last. 2016 is not shaping up to be the year.
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in the past was able to read between your lines....you've just honed your craft to a higher level.
100% agree with everything you just said.
well done sir.
Occasionally Mik- you get to see the good Ghoolie. It's a fun time. And BTW- I disagree with Zombo. The suck defense needs more help, talent, and coaching than the offense does. McCown may have put up better numbers than Manziel- but as I said- he's a backup for a reason. Doesn't pass the eye test, regardless of numbers. And he's not going to get any better. Personally, I'm tired of him standing back there like a pinata waiting, waiting, and WAITING to get busted up.
If Manziel is a backup, you build the team, and take your franchise qb last. 2016 is not shaping up to be the year.
If Manziel is a backup, you build the team, and take your franchise qb last. 2016 is not shaping up to be the year.
I use to believe you build the team then go after a franchise QB. However with franchise QB's being such a rare commodity. If you don't have one then you have to take a shot anytime the chance arises. I'd rather take a shot with one high first round pick on a QB that everyone in the organization thinks could be a franchise player. Even if it turns out wrong it's better to blow one pick than blow two 1st and a 3rd or one 1st and two 2nd round picks if you traded up and were wrong.
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You are literally too stupid to insult. Manziel is a severely better "football player" than McCarron. Guess we should bring in Jake Coker too. And last year that black kid that played for Bama because, like, he's totally a football player since he won some games with 4 straight #1 recruiting classes around him (that's an actual stat).
That would hurt if I respected you, but rest assured, I don't.
No where in my post did I say McCarron was better than your idol....... but what the hell, I'll say it now, he is. Your little hero will be out of the league before your balls finally drop.
That would hurt if I respected you, but rest assured, I don't.
No where in my post did I say McCarron was better than your idol....... but what the hell, I'll say it now, he is. Your little hero will be out of the league before your balls finally drop.
So draft Jake Coker this year right? Or is signing Greg McElroy more your speed?
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in the past was able to read between your lines....you've just honed your craft to a higher level.
100% agree with everything you just said.
well done sir.
Occasionally Mik- you get to see the good Ghoolie. It's a fun time. And BTW- I disagree with Zombo. The suck defense needs more help, talent, and coaching than the offense does. McCown may have put up better numbers than Manziel- but as I said- he's a backup for a reason. Doesn't pass the eye test, regardless of numbers. And he's not going to get any better. Personally, I'm tired of him standing back there like a pinata waiting, waiting, and WAITING to get busted up.
If Manziel is a backup, you build the team, and take your franchise qb last. 2016 is not shaping up to be the year.
Occasionally Mik- you get to see the good Ghoolie. It's a fun time. And BTW- I disagree with Zombo. The suck defense needs more help, talent, and coaching than the offense does. McCown may have put up better numbers than Manziel- but as I said- he's a backup for a reason. Doesn't pass the eye test, regardless of numbers. And he's not going to get any better. Personally, I'm tired of him standing back there like a pinata waiting, waiting, and WAITING to get busted up.
If Manziel is a backup, you build the team, and take your franchise qb last. 2016 is not shaping up to be the year.
I didn't say the the defense didn't need more help, and I didn't say McCown was the answer.
I said we need another prospect at QB with a higher ceiling than Manziel.
As far as when to take a franchise QB, you try and find one when you don't have one.
I'm of the opinion that we don't have one.
Zombo
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pittsburgh_Steelers_seasons
Just in response to some of the horseshit about the shittsburgh squealers building upon a quarterback.
It looks like up until 2004 when Roethlisberger started the worst they did was 6 and 10. And those seasons were rare, most of which being over 500.
The Baltimore shit Bird as we all know were a damn good team and never 3 and 13 or 4 + 12, as far as I know (maybe there is one which does not disproved my point).
I don't care about the Texans but there's the other two in the AFC North. Just a case for building a strong team and finding a quarterback. But we don't do that..
Change the quarterback every 24 (or less) months forever as as the team never gets right. Its like driving a Subaru Outback in the Indy 500 year after year after year but giving it a new paint job every season and wondering why you don't win.
WSS
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I wouldn't read too much into it. I mean a person could be paranoid enough to think maybe Johnny wants out of Cleveland or maybe he is an idiot.
Ya Johnny drink it up fuck it. It's only an NFL career. You'll have plenty of time to drink next to Ryan Leaf when all this horseshit comes out of the wash in time. Whofuckingcares.
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i think Manziel has enough potential to not draft another QB in the first round. Even if the Browns part ways with Johnny, I think it would be OK to go with McCown, Davis and Shaw next season. If the Browns stick with the same coaching staff/playbook, it would be better to stick with QBs that know the system rather than throwing another rookie QB out there, especially since there are no QBs coming out this year that scream #2 pick.
i think Manziel has enough potential to not draft another QB in the first round. Even if the Browns part ways with Johnny, I think it would be OK to go with McCown, Davis and Shaw next season. If the Browns stick with the same coaching staff/playbook, it would be better to stick with QBs that know the system rather than throwing another rookie QB out there, especially since there are no QBs coming out this year that scream #2 pick.
Finally a very reasonable post on a board that just piled on the Browns starting QB who, despite a bad passing day, had his team in position to win over a team trying to get in the playoffs. And in the process made money for anyone taking the Browns and the points. And did I mention a running record for the QB position?
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Thanks for the fill in mik,
Back on topic, watching Pettine, I just get the feeling that McCown is his ride-or-die chic and #1 choice. Seems like Johnny is the sloppy seconds because he knows, while hot and shiny, she already has herpes and won't bear his children.
We'll find out in around 10 days what direction this is going. I really doubt Haslam is going to wait long if he thinks serious changes are needed. The problem is, Pettine rode McCown until he was totally broken down- if he was a horse, they would have taken him out back and shot him. The guy is a career backup for a reason- he generally holds onto the ball for too damn long and is slow in his reads- ergo the broken ribs and collarbone.
I'm ambivalent about Manziel. I think he's shown improvement, but the question is if it's enough improvement. I do think the Browns will draft another qb in the spring- but not sure if yet another high pick is the way to go. Generally, this season the Browns have lost games because of gawd awful defense, not poor qb play. The KC game was an aberration in that regard.
Oh, stop being so diplomatic mik. Makes you look bad. How do I pink that anyway?
Come on man- you can't figure out the pink font? I would hope you have that bar up on top of your reply. The colors are next to the smilies.
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