Jonathan Paul Manziel
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Looks like Johnny's way of giving Browns fans the finger
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VesnaKociper said:
Holy Shit, you cunt holes are arguing as if it was me causing all the ruckus. I like it! Let me put in my two cents.
On Zombo - Or as I affectionately have called him, Zomblow :-)... For fuck's sake, the guy has a career, this shit isn't his job. Hell, I consider him a friend and he hasn't just pulled my threads, the sonofabitch has terminated my account a few times. What the hell are you whining about "Couch Pulls Out" ? Grow a set already.
Nobody here gets paid for football knowledge. We all have an asshole and we all have an opinion. We get paid and recognized equally for both.
Stan created the best haven for Browns fans to post messages that ever existed. Be glad that Zombo loves the Browns so much that he comes in here and deals with our childish bullshit.
On The Browns - For all our bitching about talent, the team has had enough to be competitive and within striking distance of a lot of games. I will say it again, a lot of the problem is in basic block, tackle, pass, catch, execute and make-no-penalties behavior. God knows I have stirred up my share of shit, but while this team stinks, it seems to me that draft picks alone aren't going to make the difference.
It is impossible that management can be so incompetent as to select nothing but poor talent. The A #1 priority with this team has nothing to do with draft picks, and positions or x's and 0's.....it has to do with team work, a standard philosophy and leadership to get everyone to buy into the program. Whatever values teams like The Pats, Steelers and other perennial winners adopt, that seems to me to be where the Browns foundation needs to start.
All this bullshit fighting over who we should have taken, who we should replace and who should play where, is just noise. How the fuck can anyone judge the talent level on this team when everyone involved, including management is operating in chaos?
On Manziel - If it were me, I would be inline with Zombo. I have seen enough of this guy. And you know, it doesn't mean that he might not straighten out and fly right for another team. That isn't the issue. The issue for me is this............. he has come to Cleveland and took a heaping shit on the fans, the heritage, the name and the good will of the team and the city. The issue for me is that he hasn't given his best.
The Browns need to set a standard and hold to it. You can't one day call a guy out, and the next day start him, then the next day pull him again. Until this franchise sets a standard, drafts, coaches and behaves according to that standard, the franchise will not be a quality product. I don't see how Manziel can ever be a leader of a franchise that adheres to such values.
On the backside, I will repeat myself, if coach Spitoon is going to play the kid, then play him for the year and don't be wishy-washy about it.
in the past was able to read between your lines....you've just honed your craft to a higher level.
100% agree with everything you just said.
well done sir.
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You all deserve to be the miserable pussies that you are
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Zombo said:
So the only stats that matter for QBs are wins and losses? That's stupid, but let's play along:
Manziel is 2-6. Beat two last place teams.
And having a bad defense is not an excuse for being a bad QB. It only makes the blowouts worse.
Here is how many points we have scored in the games Manziel has taken the majority of the snaps:
0,10,28, 10,9.24,13, 13
A little over 13 pts. per game, Only led us to more than one TD in 2 out of 8 games.
Sorry, but if you are looking for "wins", the 85 Bears or 2000 Ravens would be hard-pressed to win more than 3 of those starts.
Zombo
Z, I'm really not defending Manziel, but those points #s just might be attributable to no weapons?
If the Browns decide to terminate the JFF experiment, it won't make me particularly sad.
I think I made my case in another thread. If you decide Manziel isn't the answer- just because you have a top five pick, doesn't mean you have to take a quarterback at all costs. Not if the value isn't there. I've pointed out the disaster cases. Russell, Griffin, Harrington. That would set us back even farther than sticking with Johnny boy. Just having a franchise qb isn't the automatic ticket to the Promised Land either, or you want to tell me guys like Philip Rivers, Matt Ryan, and Matt Stafford aren't?
If it was that damn easy to find the next franchise quarterback- every team would have one. I think we've tried.
Z, I'm really not defending Manziel, but those points #s just might be attributable to no weapons?
You are back to my first excuse buffer in my first post.
We are right around 13 points per game when Manziel starts or has the majority of snaps over the past two years.
Hoyer in 2014 ... 21.3
McCown in 2015 ... 21.8
Johnny ... 13.1
Same team. Same weapons.
And I am even willing to throw 2014 out because Little Johnny forgot to practice n stuff.
But in 2015 ... 21.8 with McCown and 15.3 for Johnny
6.5 points a game.
I know you all want to give him another year, just like those that wanted to give Brady Quinn another year.
Can't you just look at him and see how far away he is and how improbable it is that he'll ever be a trusted franchise QB? I can. I'm not patting myself on the back or anything ... I don't want him to fail, I root for him like he's my son on Sundays. I even started him on playoff fantasy team down the stretch ... I'm just saying ... Can't you see it? He's got major passing issues.
If it was that damn easy to find the next franchise quarterback- every team would have one. I think we've tried.We have. And now, I'm saying ... it's time to try again.
Zombo
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Looks like Johnny's way of giving Browns fans the finger
Looks like Johnny's way of giving Browns fans the finger
Actually that's more than some "fans" deserve.
WSS
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The smartest thing I've ever seen you post...and it's still not very smart.
Oh gawd, if you liked my post, then it surely sucked
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VesnaKociper said:
Holy Shit, you cunt holes are arguing as if it was me causing all the ruckus. I like it! Let me put in my two cents.
On Zombo - Or as I affectionately have called him, Zomblow :-)... For fuck's sake, the guy has a career, this shit isn't his job. Hell, I consider him a friend and he hasn't just pulled my threads, the sonofabitch has terminated my account a few times. What the hell are you whining about "Couch Pulls Out" ? Grow a set already.
Nobody here gets paid for football knowledge. We all have an asshole and we all have an opinion. We get paid and recognized equally for both.
Stan created the best haven for Browns fans to post messages that ever existed. Be glad that Zombo loves the Browns so much that he comes in here and deals with our childish bullshit.
On The Browns - For all our bitching about talent, the team has had enough to be competitive and within striking distance of a lot of games. I will say it again, a lot of the problem is in basic block, tackle, pass, catch, execute and make-no-penalties behavior. God knows I have stirred up my share of shit, but while this team stinks, it seems to me that draft picks alone aren't going to make the difference.
It is impossible that management can be so incompetent as to select nothing but poor talent. The A #1 priority with this team has nothing to do with draft picks, and positions or x's and 0's.....it has to do with team work, a standard philosophy and leadership to get everyone to buy into the program. Whatever values teams like The Pats, Steelers and other perennial winners adopt, that seems to me to be where the Browns foundation needs to start.
All this bullshit fighting over who we should have taken, who we should replace and who should play where, is just noise. How the fuck can anyone judge the talent level on this team when everyone involved, including management is operating in chaos?
On Manziel - If it were me, I would be inline with Zombo. I have seen enough of this guy. And you know, it doesn't mean that he might not straighten out and fly right for another team. That isn't the issue. The issue for me is this............. he has come to Cleveland and took a heaping shit on the fans, the heritage, the name and the good will of the team and the city. The issue for me is that he hasn't given his best.
The Browns need to set a standard and hold to it. You can't one day call a guy out, and the next day start him, then the next day pull him again. Until this franchise sets a standard, drafts, coaches and behaves according to that standard, the franchise will not be a quality product. I don't see how Manziel can ever be a leader of a franchise that adheres to such values.
On the backside, I will repeat myself, if coach Spitoon is going to play the kid, then play him for the year and don't be wishy-washy about it.
in the past was able to read between your lines....you've just honed your craft to a higher level.
100% agree with everything you just said.
well done sir.
in the past was able to read between your lines....you've just honed your craft to a higher level.
100% agree with everything you just said.
well done sir.
Occasionally Mik- you get to see the good Ghoolie. It's a fun time. And BTW- I disagree with Zombo. The suck defense needs more help, talent, and coaching than the offense does. McCown may have put up better numbers than Manziel- but as I said- he's a backup for a reason. Doesn't pass the eye test, regardless of numbers. And he's not going to get any better. Personally, I'm tired of him standing back there like a pinata waiting, waiting, and WAITING to get busted up.
If Manziel is a backup, you build the team, and take your franchise qb last. 2016 is not shaping up to be the year.
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in the past was able to read between your lines....you've just honed your craft to a higher level.
100% agree with everything you just said.
well done sir.
Occasionally Mik- you get to see the good Ghoolie. It's a fun time. And BTW- I disagree with Zombo. The suck defense needs more help, talent, and coaching than the offense does. McCown may have put up better numbers than Manziel- but as I said- he's a backup for a reason. Doesn't pass the eye test, regardless of numbers. And he's not going to get any better. Personally, I'm tired of him standing back there like a pinata waiting, waiting, and WAITING to get busted up.
If Manziel is a backup, you build the team, and take your franchise qb last. 2016 is not shaping up to be the year.
If Manziel is a backup, you build the team, and take your franchise qb last. 2016 is not shaping up to be the year.
I use to believe you build the team then go after a franchise QB. However with franchise QB's being such a rare commodity. If you don't have one then you have to take a shot anytime the chance arises. I'd rather take a shot with one high first round pick on a QB that everyone in the organization thinks could be a franchise player. Even if it turns out wrong it's better to blow one pick than blow two 1st and a 3rd or one 1st and two 2nd round picks if you traded up and were wrong.
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You are literally too stupid to insult. Manziel is a severely better "football player" than McCarron. Guess we should bring in Jake Coker too. And last year that black kid that played for Bama because, like, he's totally a football player since he won some games with 4 straight #1 recruiting classes around him (that's an actual stat).
That would hurt if I respected you, but rest assured, I don't.
No where in my post did I say McCarron was better than your idol....... but what the hell, I'll say it now, he is. Your little hero will be out of the league before your balls finally drop.
That would hurt if I respected you, but rest assured, I don't.
No where in my post did I say McCarron was better than your idol....... but what the hell, I'll say it now, he is. Your little hero will be out of the league before your balls finally drop.
So draft Jake Coker this year right? Or is signing Greg McElroy more your speed?
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in the past was able to read between your lines....you've just honed your craft to a higher level.
100% agree with everything you just said.
well done sir.
Occasionally Mik- you get to see the good Ghoolie. It's a fun time. And BTW- I disagree with Zombo. The suck defense needs more help, talent, and coaching than the offense does. McCown may have put up better numbers than Manziel- but as I said- he's a backup for a reason. Doesn't pass the eye test, regardless of numbers. And he's not going to get any better. Personally, I'm tired of him standing back there like a pinata waiting, waiting, and WAITING to get busted up.
If Manziel is a backup, you build the team, and take your franchise qb last. 2016 is not shaping up to be the year.
Occasionally Mik- you get to see the good Ghoolie. It's a fun time. And BTW- I disagree with Zombo. The suck defense needs more help, talent, and coaching than the offense does. McCown may have put up better numbers than Manziel- but as I said- he's a backup for a reason. Doesn't pass the eye test, regardless of numbers. And he's not going to get any better. Personally, I'm tired of him standing back there like a pinata waiting, waiting, and WAITING to get busted up.
If Manziel is a backup, you build the team, and take your franchise qb last. 2016 is not shaping up to be the year.
I didn't say the the defense didn't need more help, and I didn't say McCown was the answer.
I said we need another prospect at QB with a higher ceiling than Manziel.
As far as when to take a franchise QB, you try and find one when you don't have one.
I'm of the opinion that we don't have one.
Zombo
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pittsburgh_Steelers_seasons
Just in response to some of the horseshit about the shittsburgh squealers building upon a quarterback.
It looks like up until 2004 when Roethlisberger started the worst they did was 6 and 10. And those seasons were rare, most of which being over 500.
The Baltimore shit Bird as we all know were a damn good team and never 3 and 13 or 4 + 12, as far as I know (maybe there is one which does not disproved my point).
I don't care about the Texans but there's the other two in the AFC North. Just a case for building a strong team and finding a quarterback. But we don't do that..
Change the quarterback every 24 (or less) months forever as as the team never gets right. Its like driving a Subaru Outback in the Indy 500 year after year after year but giving it a new paint job every season and wondering why you don't win.
WSS
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I wouldn't read too much into it. I mean a person could be paranoid enough to think maybe Johnny wants out of Cleveland or maybe he is an idiot.
Ya Johnny drink it up fuck it. It's only an NFL career. You'll have plenty of time to drink next to Ryan Leaf when all this horseshit comes out of the wash in time. Whofuckingcares.
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i think Manziel has enough potential to not draft another QB in the first round. Even if the Browns part ways with Johnny, I think it would be OK to go with McCown, Davis and Shaw next season. If the Browns stick with the same coaching staff/playbook, it would be better to stick with QBs that know the system rather than throwing another rookie QB out there, especially since there are no QBs coming out this year that scream #2 pick.
i think Manziel has enough potential to not draft another QB in the first round. Even if the Browns part ways with Johnny, I think it would be OK to go with McCown, Davis and Shaw next season. If the Browns stick with the same coaching staff/playbook, it would be better to stick with QBs that know the system rather than throwing another rookie QB out there, especially since there are no QBs coming out this year that scream #2 pick.
Finally a very reasonable post on a board that just piled on the Browns starting QB who, despite a bad passing day, had his team in position to win over a team trying to get in the playoffs. And in the process made money for anyone taking the Browns and the points. And did I mention a running record for the QB position?
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Thanks for the fill in mik,
Back on topic, watching Pettine, I just get the feeling that McCown is his ride-or-die chic and #1 choice. Seems like Johnny is the sloppy seconds because he knows, while hot and shiny, she already has herpes and won't bear his children.
We'll find out in around 10 days what direction this is going. I really doubt Haslam is going to wait long if he thinks serious changes are needed. The problem is, Pettine rode McCown until he was totally broken down- if he was a horse, they would have taken him out back and shot him. The guy is a career backup for a reason- he generally holds onto the ball for too damn long and is slow in his reads- ergo the broken ribs and collarbone.
I'm ambivalent about Manziel. I think he's shown improvement, but the question is if it's enough improvement. I do think the Browns will draft another qb in the spring- but not sure if yet another high pick is the way to go. Generally, this season the Browns have lost games because of gawd awful defense, not poor qb play. The KC game was an aberration in that regard.
Oh, stop being so diplomatic mik. Makes you look bad. How do I pink that anyway?
Come on man- you can't figure out the pink font? I would hope you have that bar up on top of your reply. The colors are next to the smilies.
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TCPO and the rest of the Manziel dick lickers are whining in the other thread because we haven't given proper thought to their list of excuses "He has no weapons, boo hoo hoo" ... "He had the sniffles" ... "Aaron Rogers had a bad game too!"
Because, well that is what pussies do. They whine and make excuses instead of maybe saying "wow, it is the end of year two and this guy's footwork is awful, he still can't read defenses or go through progressions, and he is wildly inconsistent."
So I am just wondering ... who can I compare Johnny too? How about the quarterback on the same team with the same players?
McCown 2015: 8 G, 8GS, 1-7, 63.7 comp%, 263 ypg, 4.1TD% 1.4 Int% 7.3 Sack% Rating 93.3
Manziel 2015: 10G, 6 GS, 2-4, 57.8 comp%, 150 ypg, 3.1TD% 2.2 Int% 7.9 Sack% Rating 79.4
We won't go into details on 2014, because it is too ugly, but, Hoyer 7-6, 76.5 Rating, Manziel 0-2 42.0 Rating
I assume we are OK with the "weapons" argument here, unless you think Brian Hartline and Andrew Hawkins were the very key to McCown's success. But I can hear the "experienced QB" whining, so let's look at his classmates:
OK, how about the players in the same draft class, the four QBs taken in the first 36 picks:
Blake Bortles
29 G, 28 GS, 8-20, 58.9 Cmp%, 7,097 Yards, 46 TD, 4.4 TD%, 33 INT 3.1 Int% 6.8 YPA, 244.7 YPG, 80.9 Rating
Johnny Manziel
15 G, 8 GS, 2-6, 57.0 Cmp%, 1,675 Yards, 7 TD, 2.7 TD%, 7 INT 2.7 Int% 6.5 YPA, 111.7 YPG, 74.4 Rating
Teddy Twatwater
28 G, 27 GS, 16-11, 65.2 Cmp%, 6,051 Yards, 28 TD, 3.4 TD%, 20 INT 2.4 Int% 7.3 YPA, 216.1 YPG, 88.0 Rating
Derek Carr31 G, 31 GS, 10-21, 59.4 Cmp%, 7,063 Yards, 52 TD, 4.6 TD%, 24 INT 2.1 Int% 6.2 YPA, 227.8 YPG, 83.9. RatingLet's see ... They are ALL better at comp %, TD%, and passer rating ... but they aren't even close in rehab stints, lying about their whereabout and douchebag videos.Now comes the "weapons" whining, those loaded teams Carr and Bortles inherited. Plus these guys got to start right away, they didn't have to beat out the likes of career backups Hoyer and McCown.So ... how about just guys with more similar experience to Johnny?Johnny Manziel
15 G, 8 GS, 2-6, 57.0 Cmp%, 1,675 Yards, 7 TD, 2.7 TD%, 7 INT 2.7 Int% 6.5 YPA, 111.7 YPG, 74.4 Rating
Marcus Marriota
12 G, 12 GS, 3-9, 62.2 Cmp%, 2,818 Yards, 19 TD, 5.1 TD%, 10 INT 2.7 Int% 7.6 YPA, 234.8 YPG, 91.5 Rating
Oh, those loaded Titans ... but Marriota was a Top 2 Pick, how about a second rounder with similar experience?
Johnny Manziel
15 G, 8 GS, 2-6, 57.0 Cmp%, 1,675 Yards, 7 TD, 2.7 TD%, 7 INT 2.7 Int% 6.5 YPA, 111.7 YPG, 74.4 Rating
Brock Osweiler
19 G, 5 GS, 3-2, 59.8 Cmp%, 1,595 Yards, 9 TD, 3.7 TD%, 4 INT 1.6 Int% 6.5 YPA, 183.9 YPG, 84.9 Rating
But, but, but ... he's been in the league longer, more camps, more time to "season", better team ...
That what pussies do, they make excuses.
No one will be a valid comparison for them.
Because they can't just look at the guy and go "Boy he's not too good, he's still not getting it, and with his size and potential for off-field problems ... we should probably flush this experiment right now and find a better prospect. Like these other guys. They come in to the league every year. We have high draft picks. Take another shot. Improve the rest of the team, bring in another prospect ... that's what you do. You don't plan on starting this guy next year. You plan on improving the position.
Zombo
Zombo said:
OK, how about the players in the same draft class, the four QBs taken in the first 36 picks:
Blake Bortles
29 G, 28 GS, 8-20, 58.9 Cmp%, 7,097 Yards, 46 TD, 4.4 TD%, 33 INT 3.1 Int% 6.8 YPA, 244.7 YPG, 80.9 Rating
Johnny Manziel
15 G, 8 GS, 2-6, 57.0 Cmp%, 1,675 Yards, 7 TD, 2.7 TD%, 7 INT 2.7 Int% 6.5 YPA, 111.7 YPG, 74.4 Rating
Teddy Twatwater
28 G, 27 GS, 16-11, 65.2 Cmp%, 6,051 Yards, 28 TD, 3.4 TD%, 20 INT 2.4 Int% 7.3 YPA, 216.1 YPG, 88.0 Rating
Derek Carr31 G, 31 GS, 10-21, 59.4 Cmp%, 7,063 Yards, 52 TD, 4.6 TD%, 24 INT 2.1 Int% 6.2 YPA, 227.8 YPG, 83.9. RatingLet's see ... They are ALL better at comp %, TD%, and passer rating ... but they aren't even close in rehab stints, lying about their whereabout and douchebag videos.Now comes the "weapons" whining, those loaded teams Carr and Bortles inherited. Plus these guys got to start right away, they didn't have to beat out the likes of career backups Hoyer and McCown.No dog in this fight here. Just an outside perspective.
It was far from a given that Marquise Lee, Allen Robinson, and Allen Hurns constituted "weapons" for Bortles. When most QBs are drafted, they usually have weapons already on the team when they arrive (P. Manning had Marvin Harrison; Aikman had Irvin waiting for him; Luck had Reggie Wayne) or subsequently add weapons (Colts added Reggie Wayne and Edgerrin James after Peyton; Steelers added Santonio Holmes after Big Ben). It is very rare that a QB and two good WRs are added by one team in the same draft. Hurns was undrafted, and Robinson was hurt midway through his rookie year, and there was no semblance of an offensive line or running game his rookie year. Furthermore, the Jaguars were working with an inexperienced OL coach (George Yarno was diagnosed with cancer and missed last year and this year and was replaced by inexperienced Luke Butkus), and changed coordinators from year one to year 2.
I say all of this to illustrate that Bortles did not have an unlimited arsenal at his disposal when he arrived in Jacksonville last year. While as it turns out he had better skill players around him than Manziel, he certainly did not have a better O-Line or more coaching stability than Manziel.
I think he also had better physical tools and intangibles than Manziel.
As a Jaguars fan, I am more relieved than words can express that we took Bortles over Manziel. I wanted no part of the Manziel circus here. I saw him as a cross between Flutie and Ryan Leaf.
To me, the sooner the Browns move on from Manziel, the better.
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Zombo said:
OK, how about the players in the same draft class, the four QBs taken in the first 36 picks:
Blake Bortles
29 G, 28 GS, 8-20, 58.9 Cmp%, 7,097 Yards, 46 TD, 4.4 TD%, 33 INT 3.1 Int% 6.8 YPA, 244.7 YPG, 80.9 Rating
Johnny Manziel
15 G, 8 GS, 2-6, 57.0 Cmp%, 1,675 Yards, 7 TD, 2.7 TD%, 7 INT 2.7 Int% 6.5 YPA, 111.7 YPG, 74.4 Rating
Teddy Twatwater
28 G, 27 GS, 16-11, 65.2 Cmp%, 6,051 Yards, 28 TD, 3.4 TD%, 20 INT 2.4 Int% 7.3 YPA, 216.1 YPG, 88.0 Rating
Derek Carr31 G, 31 GS, 10-21, 59.4 Cmp%, 7,063 Yards, 52 TD, 4.6 TD%, 24 INT 2.1 Int% 6.2 YPA, 227.8 YPG, 83.9. RatingLet's see ... They are ALL better at comp %, TD%, and passer rating ... but they aren't even close in rehab stints, lying about their whereabout and douchebag videos.Now comes the "weapons" whining, those loaded teams Carr and Bortles inherited. Plus these guys got to start right away, they didn't have to beat out the likes of career backups Hoyer and McCown.No dog in this fight here. Just an outside perspective.
It was far from a given that Marquise Lee, Allen Robinson, and Allen Hurns constituted "weapons" for Bortles. When most QBs are drafted, they usually have weapons already on the team when they arrive (P. Manning had Marvin Harrison; Aikman had Irvin waiting for him; Luck had Reggie Wayne) or subsequently add weapons (Colts added Reggie Wayne and Edgerrin James after Peyton; Steelers added Santonio Holmes after Big Ben). It is very rare that a QB and two good WRs are added by one team in the same draft. Hurns was undrafted, and Robinson was hurt midway through his rookie year, and there was no semblance of an offensive line or running game his rookie year. Furthermore, the Jaguars were working with an inexperienced OL coach (George Yarno was diagnosed with cancer and missed last year and this year and was replaced by inexperienced Luke Butkus), and changed coordinators from year one to year 2.
I say all of this to illustrate that Bortles did not have an unlimited arsenal at his disposal when he arrived in Jacksonville last year. While as it turns out he had better skill players around him than Manziel, he certainly did not have a better O-Line or more coaching stability than Manziel.
I think he also had better physical tools and intangibles than Manziel.
As a Jaguars fan, I am more relieved than words can express that we took Bortles over Manziel. I wanted no part of the Manziel circus here. I saw him as a cross between Flutie and Ryan Leaf.
To me, the sooner the Browns move on from Manziel, the better.
I think he also had better physical tools and intangibles than Manziel.
As a Jaguars fan, I am more relieved than words can express that we took Bortles over Manziel. I wanted no part of the Manziel circus here. I saw him as a cross between Flutie and Ryan Leaf.
To me, the sooner the Browns move on from Manziel, the better.
We agree.
Z
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I think we could argue till we are all blue in the face and still not know whats gonna happen.......and we wont know until next May sometime....
Cause it really isnt whether we think he's good or not....or if he'll develop.....its all about what the BROWNS think.....
Personally, I have ZERO idea what Mike Pettine, Kevin O'Connell or Flip even think of him or his talent.....nor do I know what Farmer or Haslem think......nor do I know WHO, among all these people, is gonna be the deciding force....nor do I know WHO, among these people, is even gonna be here.....BUT....someone is gonna decide to keep him or cut chase and it aint gonna be based on numbers(cause his numbers suck).....its gonna be based upon whether they think he's the guy...or not....
Throughout my life, I have had to fire many many people.....some were really easy and deserved it, so no problem.....but a lot of them were OK employees who I was on the fence about, so to speak.....making either decision difficult......so Id do GOOD list BAD list to help me see if they were good for the company or bad for the company....
By listing all the good and then listing all the bad, it forced me to give each side a fair look and to consider all the good things they brought to our company vs the thing or things that made me consider firing them....
And, gotta say, my good list - bad list for Johnny is kind of unbalanced toward the bad side......(just being honest).....so, as a team, they have to consider more than just his potential.....but what has he brought to the team that is positive VS negative,,,,,,(cause negatives count as much as positives).....and Im not counting too many positives right now.....
So.....I know no one here will do that(fairly, at least)....but if you're a Johnny fan, Id suggest trying it in private....make an honest list of all the "positives he's already brought to the Browns"(and not potential,but reality) ........and all the "negatives he's brought to the Browns".......then throw em on a scale and see which way it leans.......(and if you do it honestly, it will lean heavy to the negative)....
A lot of talk about trading him....and then the talk that we wouldnt get anything but a late round choice......and I gotta ask why a late pick if he doesnt look bad?.....if he's SO good and has SO much potential, shouldnt he be attractive trade bait?......shouldnt all the other GM's be able to see through the crap and understand just how awesome he really is?.....shoudnt they all line up to tap the next great one?......
And....the answer is NO.....there are NO other teams that are gonna watch his play and decide "we need some of that!".....
That is reality......and what a majority of fans(and pros) think......so, if you;re promoting Johnny, Id be curious what your good list has, that mine doesnt......(besides assumed potential).....and Id be curious what you think he's worth on the trade market and why.......cause if he's good enough to get a third year and the reins as starter, then he should be a desirable commodity on the open market.....
Im on record as saying Id tolerate another year(tho prefer not to).....but cant believe the Browns would.....
May cant come fast enough, because it'll be all Johnny all the time until then......(just like it's been since he got here)
Cause it really isnt whether we think he's good or not....or if he'll develop.....its all about what the BROWNS think.....
Id do GOOD list BAD list to help me see if they were good for the company or bad for the company....
By listing all the good and then listing all the bad, it forced me to give each side a fair look and to consider all the good things they brought to our company vs the thing or things that made me consider firing them....
And, gotta say, my good list - bad list for Johnny is kind of unbalanced toward the bad side......(just being honest)...
Ok.....here it is Ag.....but to be clear, this is not a QB good list - bad list.....this is a "what have you brought to the team?" list.....
I'd be interested in seeing your good and bad lists mud.
Bad:....Horrible PR......TMZ circus.....some division of the fans, coaches and players....poor work ethic.....poor play.....instability at the QB position.....loss of another high pick.....undue problems and pressure for a rookie coach.....division in the QB room....embarrassment for the GM, owner and Brand.......lack of stability going into year 3.....a lack of trust with his coaches......and the clear inability(or unwillingness) to correct the simple things that he COULD correct if he wanted to......
Good:...some excitement when running....and 2 good passes.....(but thats it).....
And, honestly.....not trying to be a dick......just cant come up with ANYTHING that he has done for the Browns to improve the team, to improve the culture or make us stronger going forward.....
The ONLY thing hes got on his side, right now, is assumed "potential"........(and that doesnt make anyone better)
6th would be his opening (steal) offer. I think if he senses weakness on the Browns in terms of wanting to be rid of JM, then 5th would be the real offer with 4th only if he thinks Cleveland really wants to keep him.
And that is my point......Jerry would NEVER give a first because he doesnt have faith that Johnny is worth it.....period...
So.....his perspective(and, I think, the whole worlds perspective) is that Johnny isnt worth a high pick.....and, if thats the case, why should we think he's our future???....or that he's suddenly gonna change and get good or mature?.....
If he re-entred the draft today, with 2 years of NFL experience and growth under his belt.....where do you think he would be picked???.....right now.....?
5th round?......7th round?......UDFA?.......
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