Jonathan Paul Manziel
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TCPO and the rest of the Manziel dick lickers are whining in the other thread because we haven't given proper thought to their list of excuses "He has no weapons, boo hoo hoo" ... "He had the sniffles" ... "Aaron Rogers had a bad game too!"
Because, well that is what pussies do. They whine and make excuses instead of maybe saying "wow, it is the end of year two and this guy's footwork is awful, he still can't read defenses or go through progressions, and he is wildly inconsistent."
So I am just wondering ... who can I compare Johnny too? How about the quarterback on the same team with the same players?
McCown 2015: 8 G, 8GS, 1-7, 63.7 comp%, 263 ypg, 4.1TD% 1.4 Int% 7.3 Sack% Rating 93.3
Manziel 2015: 10G, 6 GS, 2-4, 57.8 comp%, 150 ypg, 3.1TD% 2.2 Int% 7.9 Sack% Rating 79.4
We won't go into details on 2014, because it is too ugly, but, Hoyer 7-6, 76.5 Rating, Manziel 0-2 42.0 Rating
I assume we are OK with the "weapons" argument here, unless you think Brian Hartline and Andrew Hawkins were the very key to McCown's success. But I can hear the "experienced QB" whining, so let's look at his classmates:
OK, how about the players in the same draft class, the four QBs taken in the first 36 picks:
Blake Bortles
29 G, 28 GS, 8-20, 58.9 Cmp%, 7,097 Yards, 46 TD, 4.4 TD%, 33 INT 3.1 Int% 6.8 YPA, 244.7 YPG, 80.9 Rating
Johnny Manziel
15 G, 8 GS, 2-6, 57.0 Cmp%, 1,675 Yards, 7 TD, 2.7 TD%, 7 INT 2.7 Int% 6.5 YPA, 111.7 YPG, 74.4 Rating
Teddy Twatwater
28 G, 27 GS, 16-11, 65.2 Cmp%, 6,051 Yards, 28 TD, 3.4 TD%, 20 INT 2.4 Int% 7.3 YPA, 216.1 YPG, 88.0 Rating
Derek Carr31 G, 31 GS, 10-21, 59.4 Cmp%, 7,063 Yards, 52 TD, 4.6 TD%, 24 INT 2.1 Int% 6.2 YPA, 227.8 YPG, 83.9. RatingLet's see ... They are ALL better at comp %, TD%, and passer rating ... but they aren't even close in rehab stints, lying about their whereabout and douchebag videos.Now comes the "weapons" whining, those loaded teams Carr and Bortles inherited. Plus these guys got to start right away, they didn't have to beat out the likes of career backups Hoyer and McCown.So ... how about just guys with more similar experience to Johnny?Johnny Manziel
15 G, 8 GS, 2-6, 57.0 Cmp%, 1,675 Yards, 7 TD, 2.7 TD%, 7 INT 2.7 Int% 6.5 YPA, 111.7 YPG, 74.4 Rating
Marcus Marriota
12 G, 12 GS, 3-9, 62.2 Cmp%, 2,818 Yards, 19 TD, 5.1 TD%, 10 INT 2.7 Int% 7.6 YPA, 234.8 YPG, 91.5 Rating
Oh, those loaded Titans ... but Marriota was a Top 2 Pick, how about a second rounder with similar experience?
Johnny Manziel
15 G, 8 GS, 2-6, 57.0 Cmp%, 1,675 Yards, 7 TD, 2.7 TD%, 7 INT 2.7 Int% 6.5 YPA, 111.7 YPG, 74.4 Rating
Brock Osweiler
19 G, 5 GS, 3-2, 59.8 Cmp%, 1,595 Yards, 9 TD, 3.7 TD%, 4 INT 1.6 Int% 6.5 YPA, 183.9 YPG, 84.9 Rating
But, but, but ... he's been in the league longer, more camps, more time to "season", better team ...
That what pussies do, they make excuses.
No one will be a valid comparison for them.
Because they can't just look at the guy and go "Boy he's not too good, he's still not getting it, and with his size and potential for off-field problems ... we should probably flush this experiment right now and find a better prospect. Like these other guys. They come in to the league every year. We have high draft picks. Take another shot. Improve the rest of the team, bring in another prospect ... that's what you do. You don't plan on starting this guy next year. You plan on improving the position.
Zombo
Zombo said:
OK, how about the players in the same draft class, the four QBs taken in the first 36 picks:
Blake Bortles
29 G, 28 GS, 8-20, 58.9 Cmp%, 7,097 Yards, 46 TD, 4.4 TD%, 33 INT 3.1 Int% 6.8 YPA, 244.7 YPG, 80.9 Rating
Johnny Manziel
15 G, 8 GS, 2-6, 57.0 Cmp%, 1,675 Yards, 7 TD, 2.7 TD%, 7 INT 2.7 Int% 6.5 YPA, 111.7 YPG, 74.4 Rating
Teddy Twatwater
28 G, 27 GS, 16-11, 65.2 Cmp%, 6,051 Yards, 28 TD, 3.4 TD%, 20 INT 2.4 Int% 7.3 YPA, 216.1 YPG, 88.0 Rating
Derek Carr31 G, 31 GS, 10-21, 59.4 Cmp%, 7,063 Yards, 52 TD, 4.6 TD%, 24 INT 2.1 Int% 6.2 YPA, 227.8 YPG, 83.9. RatingLet's see ... They are ALL better at comp %, TD%, and passer rating ... but they aren't even close in rehab stints, lying about their whereabout and douchebag videos.Now comes the "weapons" whining, those loaded teams Carr and Bortles inherited. Plus these guys got to start right away, they didn't have to beat out the likes of career backups Hoyer and McCown.No dog in this fight here. Just an outside perspective.
It was far from a given that Marquise Lee, Allen Robinson, and Allen Hurns constituted "weapons" for Bortles. When most QBs are drafted, they usually have weapons already on the team when they arrive (P. Manning had Marvin Harrison; Aikman had Irvin waiting for him; Luck had Reggie Wayne) or subsequently add weapons (Colts added Reggie Wayne and Edgerrin James after Peyton; Steelers added Santonio Holmes after Big Ben). It is very rare that a QB and two good WRs are added by one team in the same draft. Hurns was undrafted, and Robinson was hurt midway through his rookie year, and there was no semblance of an offensive line or running game his rookie year. Furthermore, the Jaguars were working with an inexperienced OL coach (George Yarno was diagnosed with cancer and missed last year and this year and was replaced by inexperienced Luke Butkus), and changed coordinators from year one to year 2.
I say all of this to illustrate that Bortles did not have an unlimited arsenal at his disposal when he arrived in Jacksonville last year. While as it turns out he had better skill players around him than Manziel, he certainly did not have a better O-Line or more coaching stability than Manziel.
I think he also had better physical tools and intangibles than Manziel.
As a Jaguars fan, I am more relieved than words can express that we took Bortles over Manziel. I wanted no part of the Manziel circus here. I saw him as a cross between Flutie and Ryan Leaf.
To me, the sooner the Browns move on from Manziel, the better.
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Zombo said:
OK, how about the players in the same draft class, the four QBs taken in the first 36 picks:
Blake Bortles
29 G, 28 GS, 8-20, 58.9 Cmp%, 7,097 Yards, 46 TD, 4.4 TD%, 33 INT 3.1 Int% 6.8 YPA, 244.7 YPG, 80.9 Rating
Johnny Manziel
15 G, 8 GS, 2-6, 57.0 Cmp%, 1,675 Yards, 7 TD, 2.7 TD%, 7 INT 2.7 Int% 6.5 YPA, 111.7 YPG, 74.4 Rating
Teddy Twatwater
28 G, 27 GS, 16-11, 65.2 Cmp%, 6,051 Yards, 28 TD, 3.4 TD%, 20 INT 2.4 Int% 7.3 YPA, 216.1 YPG, 88.0 Rating
Derek Carr31 G, 31 GS, 10-21, 59.4 Cmp%, 7,063 Yards, 52 TD, 4.6 TD%, 24 INT 2.1 Int% 6.2 YPA, 227.8 YPG, 83.9. RatingLet's see ... They are ALL better at comp %, TD%, and passer rating ... but they aren't even close in rehab stints, lying about their whereabout and douchebag videos.Now comes the "weapons" whining, those loaded teams Carr and Bortles inherited. Plus these guys got to start right away, they didn't have to beat out the likes of career backups Hoyer and McCown.No dog in this fight here. Just an outside perspective.
It was far from a given that Marquise Lee, Allen Robinson, and Allen Hurns constituted "weapons" for Bortles. When most QBs are drafted, they usually have weapons already on the team when they arrive (P. Manning had Marvin Harrison; Aikman had Irvin waiting for him; Luck had Reggie Wayne) or subsequently add weapons (Colts added Reggie Wayne and Edgerrin James after Peyton; Steelers added Santonio Holmes after Big Ben). It is very rare that a QB and two good WRs are added by one team in the same draft. Hurns was undrafted, and Robinson was hurt midway through his rookie year, and there was no semblance of an offensive line or running game his rookie year. Furthermore, the Jaguars were working with an inexperienced OL coach (George Yarno was diagnosed with cancer and missed last year and this year and was replaced by inexperienced Luke Butkus), and changed coordinators from year one to year 2.
I say all of this to illustrate that Bortles did not have an unlimited arsenal at his disposal when he arrived in Jacksonville last year. While as it turns out he had better skill players around him than Manziel, he certainly did not have a better O-Line or more coaching stability than Manziel.
I think he also had better physical tools and intangibles than Manziel.
As a Jaguars fan, I am more relieved than words can express that we took Bortles over Manziel. I wanted no part of the Manziel circus here. I saw him as a cross between Flutie and Ryan Leaf.
To me, the sooner the Browns move on from Manziel, the better.
I think he also had better physical tools and intangibles than Manziel.
As a Jaguars fan, I am more relieved than words can express that we took Bortles over Manziel. I wanted no part of the Manziel circus here. I saw him as a cross between Flutie and Ryan Leaf.
To me, the sooner the Browns move on from Manziel, the better.
We agree.
Z
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I think we could argue till we are all blue in the face and still not know whats gonna happen.......and we wont know until next May sometime....
Cause it really isnt whether we think he's good or not....or if he'll develop.....its all about what the BROWNS think.....
Personally, I have ZERO idea what Mike Pettine, Kevin O'Connell or Flip even think of him or his talent.....nor do I know what Farmer or Haslem think......nor do I know WHO, among all these people, is gonna be the deciding force....nor do I know WHO, among these people, is even gonna be here.....BUT....someone is gonna decide to keep him or cut chase and it aint gonna be based on numbers(cause his numbers suck).....its gonna be based upon whether they think he's the guy...or not....
Throughout my life, I have had to fire many many people.....some were really easy and deserved it, so no problem.....but a lot of them were OK employees who I was on the fence about, so to speak.....making either decision difficult......so Id do GOOD list BAD list to help me see if they were good for the company or bad for the company....
By listing all the good and then listing all the bad, it forced me to give each side a fair look and to consider all the good things they brought to our company vs the thing or things that made me consider firing them....
And, gotta say, my good list - bad list for Johnny is kind of unbalanced toward the bad side......(just being honest).....so, as a team, they have to consider more than just his potential.....but what has he brought to the team that is positive VS negative,,,,,,(cause negatives count as much as positives).....and Im not counting too many positives right now.....
So.....I know no one here will do that(fairly, at least)....but if you're a Johnny fan, Id suggest trying it in private....make an honest list of all the "positives he's already brought to the Browns"(and not potential,but reality) ........and all the "negatives he's brought to the Browns".......then throw em on a scale and see which way it leans.......(and if you do it honestly, it will lean heavy to the negative)....
A lot of talk about trading him....and then the talk that we wouldnt get anything but a late round choice......and I gotta ask why a late pick if he doesnt look bad?.....if he's SO good and has SO much potential, shouldnt he be attractive trade bait?......shouldnt all the other GM's be able to see through the crap and understand just how awesome he really is?.....shoudnt they all line up to tap the next great one?......
And....the answer is NO.....there are NO other teams that are gonna watch his play and decide "we need some of that!".....
That is reality......and what a majority of fans(and pros) think......so, if you;re promoting Johnny, Id be curious what your good list has, that mine doesnt......(besides assumed potential).....and Id be curious what you think he's worth on the trade market and why.......cause if he's good enough to get a third year and the reins as starter, then he should be a desirable commodity on the open market.....
Im on record as saying Id tolerate another year(tho prefer not to).....but cant believe the Browns would.....
May cant come fast enough, because it'll be all Johnny all the time until then......(just like it's been since he got here)
Cause it really isnt whether we think he's good or not....or if he'll develop.....its all about what the BROWNS think.....
Id do GOOD list BAD list to help me see if they were good for the company or bad for the company....
By listing all the good and then listing all the bad, it forced me to give each side a fair look and to consider all the good things they brought to our company vs the thing or things that made me consider firing them....
And, gotta say, my good list - bad list for Johnny is kind of unbalanced toward the bad side......(just being honest)...
Ok.....here it is Ag.....but to be clear, this is not a QB good list - bad list.....this is a "what have you brought to the team?" list.....
I'd be interested in seeing your good and bad lists mud.
Bad:....Horrible PR......TMZ circus.....some division of the fans, coaches and players....poor work ethic.....poor play.....instability at the QB position.....loss of another high pick.....undue problems and pressure for a rookie coach.....division in the QB room....embarrassment for the GM, owner and Brand.......lack of stability going into year 3.....a lack of trust with his coaches......and the clear inability(or unwillingness) to correct the simple things that he COULD correct if he wanted to......
Good:...some excitement when running....and 2 good passes.....(but thats it).....
And, honestly.....not trying to be a dick......just cant come up with ANYTHING that he has done for the Browns to improve the team, to improve the culture or make us stronger going forward.....
The ONLY thing hes got on his side, right now, is assumed "potential"........(and that doesnt make anyone better)
6th would be his opening (steal) offer. I think if he senses weakness on the Browns in terms of wanting to be rid of JM, then 5th would be the real offer with 4th only if he thinks Cleveland really wants to keep him.
And that is my point......Jerry would NEVER give a first because he doesnt have faith that Johnny is worth it.....period...
So.....his perspective(and, I think, the whole worlds perspective) is that Johnny isnt worth a high pick.....and, if thats the case, why should we think he's our future???....or that he's suddenly gonna change and get good or mature?.....
If he re-entred the draft today, with 2 years of NFL experience and growth under his belt.....where do you think he would be picked???.....right now.....?
5th round?......7th round?......UDFA?.......
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Cause it really isnt whether we think he's good or not....or if he'll develop.....its all about what the BROWNS think.....
Id do GOOD list BAD list to help me see if they were good for the company or bad for the company....
By listing all the good and then listing all the bad, it forced me to give each side a fair look and to consider all the good things they brought to our company vs the thing or things that made me consider firing them....
And, gotta say, my good list - bad list for Johnny is kind of unbalanced toward the bad side......(just being honest)...
Ok.....here it is Ag.....but to be clear, this is not a QB good list - bad list.....this is a "what have you brought to the team?" list.....
I'd be interested in seeing your good and bad lists mud.
Bad:....Horrible PR......TMZ circus.....some division of the fans, coaches and players....poor work ethic.....poor play.....instability at the QB position.....loss of another high pick.....undue problems and pressure for a rookie coach.....division in the QB room....embarrassment for the GM, owner and Brand.......lack of stability going into year 3.....a lack of trust with his coaches......and the clear inability(or unwillingness) to correct the simple things that he COULD correct if he wanted to......
Good:...some excitement when running....and 2 good passes.....(but thats it).....
And, honestly.....not trying to be a dick......just cant come up with ANYTHING that he has done for the Browns to improve the team, to improve the culture or make us stronger going forward.....
The ONLY thing hes got on his side, right now, is assumed "potential"........(and that doesnt make anyone better)
6th would be his opening (steal) offer. I think if he senses weakness on the Browns in terms of wanting to be rid of JM, then 5th would be the real offer with 4th only if he thinks Cleveland really wants to keep him.
And that is my point......Jerry would NEVER give a first because he doesnt have faith that Johnny is worth it.....period...
So.....his perspective(and, I think, the whole worlds perspective) is that Johnny isnt worth a high pick.....and, if thats the case, why should we think he's our future???....or that he's suddenly gonna change and get good or mature?.....
If he re-entred the draft today, with 2 years of NFL experience and growth under his belt.....where do you think he would be picked???.....right now.....?
5th round?......7th round?......UDFA?.......
And that is my point......Jerry would NEVER give a first because he doesnt have faith that Johnny is worth it.....period...
You probably aren't going to get $5,000 for your living room furniture if you tell all your friends that you hate it and you are putting it out on the curb next Monday.
WSS
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But the "Browns" haven't said that or told anybody that......they've basically stood behind Johnny through his many problems, though y listening to some of you guys, you'd think they flogged him at the town square....
Bottom line......The Browns have done nothing to discredit Johnny....he did it ALL himself....
The world has eyes and can see the truth on it's own......
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Cause it really isnt whether we think he's good or not....or if he'll develop.....its all about what the BROWNS think.....
Id do GOOD list BAD list to help me see if they were good for the company or bad for the company....
By listing all the good and then listing all the bad, it forced me to give each side a fair look and to consider all the good things they brought to our company vs the thing or things that made me consider firing them....
And, gotta say, my good list - bad list for Johnny is kind of unbalanced toward the bad side......(just being honest)...
Ok.....here it is Ag.....but to be clear, this is not a QB good list - bad list.....this is a "what have you brought to the team?" list.....
I'd be interested in seeing your good and bad lists mud.
Bad:....Horrible PR......TMZ circus.....some division of the fans, coaches and players....poor work ethic.....poor play.....instability at the QB position.....loss of another high pick.....undue problems and pressure for a rookie coach.....division in the QB room....embarrassment for the GM, owner and Brand.......lack of stability going into year 3.....a lack of trust with his coaches......and the clear inability(or unwillingness) to correct the simple things that he COULD correct if he wanted to......
Good:...some excitement when running....and 2 good passes.....(but thats it).....
And, honestly.....not trying to be a dick......just cant come up with ANYTHING that he has done for the Browns to improve the team, to improve the culture or make us stronger going forward.....
The ONLY thing hes got on his side, right now, is assumed "potential"........(and that doesnt make anyone better)
6th would be his opening (steal) offer. I think if he senses weakness on the Browns in terms of wanting to be rid of JM, then 5th would be the real offer with 4th only if he thinks Cleveland really wants to keep him.
And that is my point......Jerry would NEVER give a first because he doesnt have faith that Johnny is worth it.....period...
So.....his perspective(and, I think, the whole worlds perspective) is that Johnny isnt worth a high pick.....and, if thats the case, why should we think he's our future???....or that he's suddenly gonna change and get good or mature?.....
If he re-entred the draft today, with 2 years of NFL experience and growth under his belt.....where do you think he would be picked???.....right now.....?
5th round?......7th round?......UDFA?.......
Ok.....here it is Ag.....but to be clear, this is not a QB good list - bad list.....this is a "what have you brought to the team?" list.....
Bad:....Horrible PR......TMZ circus.....some division of the fans, coaches and players....poor work ethic.....poor play.....instability at the QB position.....loss of another high pick.....undue problems and pressure for a rookie coach.....division in the QB room....embarrassment for the GM, owner and Brand.......lack of stability going into year 3.....a lack of trust with his coaches......and the clear inability(or unwillingness) to correct the simple things that he COULD correct if he wanted to......
Good:...some excitement when running....and 2 good passes.....(but thats it).....
And, honestly.....not trying to be a dick......just cant come up with ANYTHING that he has done for the Browns to improve the team, to improve the culture or make us stronger going forward.....
The ONLY thing hes got on his side, right now, is assumed "potential"........(and that doesnt make anyone better)
And that is my point......Jerry would NEVER give a first because he doesnt have faith that Johnny is worth it.....period...
So.....his perspective(and, I think, the whole worlds perspective) is that Johnny isnt worth a high pick.....and, if thats the case, why should we think he's our future???....or that he's suddenly gonna change and get good or mature?.....
If he re-entred the draft today, with 2 years of NFL experience and growth under his belt.....where do you think he would be picked???.....right now.....?
5th round?......7th round?......UDFA?.......
To answer the last I think he might rate a 3rd for a desperate team with no real QB and willing to take the baggage.
But I think you need to revise the initial things he brought last year since now he obviously has worked extremely hard and has become asset in the QB room, even when demoted. And even in the loss he clearly has the O players thinking he just might have pulled that off after giving everything he had going right to bring them back from 17-3 to one slow ref from an endzone shot for the win.
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Ok.....here it is Ag.....but to be clear, this is not a QB good list - bad list.....this is a "what have you brought to the team?" list.....
Bad:....Horrible PR......TMZ circus.....some division of the fans, coaches and players....poor work ethic.....poor play.....instability at the QB position.....loss of another high pick.....undue problems and pressure for a rookie coach.....division in the QB room....embarrassment for the GM, owner and Brand.......lack of stability going into year 3.....a lack of trust with his coaches......and the clear inability(or unwillingness) to correct the simple things that he COULD correct if he wanted to......
Good:...some excitement when running....and 2 good passes.....(but thats it).....
And, honestly.....not trying to be a dick......just cant come up with ANYTHING that he has done for the Browns to improve the team, to improve the culture or make us stronger going forward.....
The ONLY thing hes got on his side, right now, is assumed "potential"........(and that doesnt make anyone better)
And that is my point......Jerry would NEVER give a first because he doesnt have faith that Johnny is worth it.....period...
So.....his perspective(and, I think, the whole worlds perspective) is that Johnny isnt worth a high pick.....and, if thats the case, why should we think he's our future???....or that he's suddenly gonna change and get good or mature?.....
If he re-entred the draft today, with 2 years of NFL experience and growth under his belt.....where do you think he would be picked???.....right now.....?
5th round?......7th round?......UDFA?.......
To answer the last I think he might rate a 3rd for a desperate team with no real QB and willing to take the baggage.
But I think you need to revise the initial things he brought last year since now he obviously has worked extremely hard and has become asset in the QB room, even when demoted. And even in the loss he clearly has the O players thinking he just might have pulled that off after giving everything he had going right to bring them back from 17-3 to one slow ref from an endzone shot for the win.
To answer the last I think he might rate a 3rd for a desperate team with no real QB and willing to take the baggage.
But I think you need to revise the initial things he brought last year since now he obviously has worked extremely hard and has become asset in the QB room, even when demoted.
No....not really.....I dont know that he is an asset anywhere....thats purely an assumption.....
And, though he is improved from last year, I still see a guy who hasnt reached "base" maturity yet.....so, after rehab, he is still doing the same things he did last year...and only a week or 2 after being benched, he does EXACTLY what he was benched for...(again)...
Nope....I see a guy totally thumbing his nose at the fans(Ill do what I want, when I want).....and at his Coaches and his team.....
And this weeks TMZ 4-loco episode pretty much proves that to me.....100%....he just doesnt give a shit what the team wants and only cares about what HE wants.....sorry, but it's obvious.....
So.....saying the players had hope we would win last week is not "something he brings to the team"......what POSITIVES has he brought to the team.....leadership?.....maturity?.....quality play?.....a winning attitude?.....a strong work ethic?....a willingness to change, grow or mature?.....improved QB play?......more scoring?......what???
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Looks like Johnny's way of giving Browns fans the finger
Looks like Johnny's way of giving Browns fans the finger
Honestly, few fans probably care....if he were to play well and win. See San Francisco/Tennessee games. It is about giving the organization the finger.
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Looks like Johnny's way of giving Browns fans the finger
Looks like Johnny's way of giving Browns fans the finger
exactly.....and the Team too.....
Actually that's more than some "fans" deserve.
Right.....Johnny shits all over his team and his fans.....then they get mad because he doesnt even try......and therefore, the fans deserve to be shit upon?.....
Honestly, few fans probably care.... It is about giving the organization the finger.
Exactly.....(and most of us no longer care anymore)...(Johnny = big sigh)
And the LEGIONS of Johnny lovers have completely moved on(save for a couple).....why?......cause he completely let them down.....
Now....after 2 years of him not giving a shit, we are supposed to blindly love and support him?.....after he's let us down many many times, are we suddenly supposed to trust him???
Only a fool would count on Johnny.....for anything.....
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"San Francisco/Tennessee" Well someone had to win those games (tie could happen but still), they're the worst teams in the league, Browns included
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I have to be honest. I never liked the idea of Johnny as our QB. That being said, we have bigger problems right now. Mr. Haslam needs to decide what systems on offense and defense he wants the browns to have and then go find the best available staff to fit those systems. Every year we see the staff butting heads and mismatching player personnel to the team. If we could just build the team correctly for once; we could possibly get somewhere for a change. I know this really is not a big answer to your question but it has to be addressed first before we can decide what to do with Manziel. I personally don't like him but if he is the best fit for a new system than I can tolerate him for a couple years at least until we can get a better QB.
I have to be honest. I never liked the idea of Johnny as our QB. That being said...... if he is the best fit for a new system than I can tolerate him for a couple years at least until we can get a better QB.
My beef would be that Manziel does NOT fit any traditional NFL system....So a "special system" would have to be devised just to utilize his improvisational talents.....
And my problems with that are.....
- If you do that, where do you find back ups that also will do well in this "special" system....cause he WILL get hurt eventually.....all QB's do......and you will be screwed when that happens...
- And if you cant find another Johnny or 2(as back ups).....do you then force your team to learn 2 systems, so they can switch up for the other QB's?.....(cause thats a bad idea)....
- And....do you totally revamp your offense and system, making 25 other guys adjust their play.....for a guy who hasnt done anything in 2 years???......really?.....I dont know anyone that would sell out their whole Offense and push the whole pot in for a hand like that?....
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I have to be honest. I never liked the idea of Johnny as our QB. That being said...... if he is the best fit for a new system than I can tolerate him for a couple years at least until we can get a better QB.
My beef would be that Manziel does NOT fit any traditional NFL system....So a "special system" would have to be devised just to utilize his improvisational talents.....
And my problems with that are.....
- If you do that, where do you find back ups that also will do well in this "special" system....cause he WILL get hurt eventually.....all QB's do......and you will be screwed when that happens...
- And if you cant find another Johnny or 2(as back ups).....do you then force your team to learn 2 systems, so they can switch up for the other QB's?.....(cause thats a bad idea)....
- And....do you totally revamp your offense and system, making 25 other guys adjust their play.....for a guy who hasnt done anything in 2 years???......really?.....I dont know anyone that would sell out their whole Offense and push the whole pot in for a hand like that?....
One of the reasons some fans here hate Bill Belichick is because he didn't tailor the offense to Bernie Kosar remaining skills.My beef would be that Manziel does NOT fit any traditional NFL system....So a "special system" would have to be devised just to utilize his improvisational talents.....
And my problems with that are.....
- If you do that, where do you find back ups that also will do well in this "special" system....cause he WILL get hurt eventually.....all QB's do......and you will be screwed when that happens...
- And if you cant find another Johnny or 2(as back ups).....do you then force your team to learn 2 systems, so they can switch up for the other QB's?.....(cause thats a bad idea)....
- And....do you totally revamp your offense and system, making 25 other guys adjust their play.....for a guy who hasnt done anything in 2 years???......really?.....I dont know anyone that would sell out their whole Offense and push the whole pot in for a hand like that?....
It's rare you will have three excellent quarterbacks with the exact same skill set.
Just build a good team. If it turns out johnny is the weak link then you can plug in wtvr 6 foot 6 choirboy you want.
I mean think about it, a tough defense and a rugged running game have nothing to do with Johnny's skill set. Or Josh or Austin or Hoyers, or anybody's.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
I totally agree with his off the field immature jackassery. But on the field and in practice/preparation all his teammates and coaches are pleased with the changes and leadership in the huddle. Is he worth the tradeoff?
If there were a clear cut no brainer QB in this draft I would say absolutely not. Or if we make an off season acquisition such as Bradford like you suggested, again nope he isn't worth keeping until he grows up to be a responsible man. Problem is there isn't an easy answer at the moment. McCown isn't it. Too slow and can't keep from getting creamed too often. Shaw? Maybe. Davis? He's a younger McCown without the accuracy.
Here's a list of the 2016 FA QB's-Osweiler might be worth a shot. Or even Cousins. Both are young and getting better.
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Yes mud, a lot of these fans deserve the finger. You and tour border on haters but you guys aren't that bad. Read some of the shit on this board. If I was from out of town and read that crap I give some of these assholes the finger. I won't mention any names but you know who they are.
Just the idea that there is all this crying about a complete non issue should give you a clue.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Browns fans and QB's?
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Yes mud, a lot of these fans deserve the finger. You and tour border on haters but you guys aren't that bad. Read some of the shit on this board. If I was from out of town and read that crap I give some of these assholes the finger. I won't mention any names but you know who they are.
Just the idea that there is all this crying about a complete non issue should give you a clue.
WSS
Yes mud, a lot of these fans deserve the finger. You .... border on haters but you guys aren't that bad.
Cant speak for Tour.....and admit Im no longer a Johnny fan.....but definitely not a hater....
I got right on board when he was drafted and then sat on the edge of my seat waiting for something great to happen....
And it hasnt happened....(though, many of my initial concerns HAVE been proven to be true....so far.....)
Im just willing to call a spade a spade, when I see one.....and, to me, Johnny is just that.....still time to prove me wrong though....
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That would hurt if I respected you, but rest assured, I don't.
No where in my post did I say McCarron was better than your idol....... but what the hell, I'll say it now, he is. Your little hero will be out of the league before your balls finally drop.
So draft Jake Coker this year right? Or is signing Greg McElroy more your speed?
So draft Jake Coker this year right? Or is signing Greg McElroy more your speed?
QB was not our problem this year. McCown did a good job while he was healthy. I don't want to see the Browns go QB in the 1st round this year as we have so many other holes to fill. We already have one "1st round QB project" on the team, and we certainly don't need two - ASSuming your lil' fella is still a Brown next year.Hopefully we draft kids who love the game, and stay away from the Veikunes, Mingos, Gilberts, Warrens, and Powells that look great in shorts, and in some cases, look good with shorts, a helmet and loud, kool music thumpin' away.
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To answer the last I think he might rate a 3rd for a desperate team with no real QB and willing to take the baggage.
But I think you need to revise the initial things he brought last year since now he obviously has worked extremely hard and has become asset in the QB room, even when demoted.
No....not really.....I dont know that he is an asset anywhere....thats purely an assumption.....
And, though he is improved from last year, I still see a guy who hasnt reached "base" maturity yet.....so, after rehab, he is still doing the same things he did last year...and only a week or 2 after being benched, he does EXACTLY what he was benched for...(again)...
Nope....I see a guy totally thumbing his nose at the fans(Ill do what I want, when I want).....and at his Coaches and his team.....
And this weeks TMZ 4-loco episode pretty much proves that to me.....100%....he just doesnt give a shit what the team wants and only cares about what HE wants.....sorry, but it's obvious.....
So.....saying the players had hope we would win last week is not "something he brings to the team"......what POSITIVES has he brought to the team.....leadership?.....maturity?.....quality play?.....a winning attitude?.....a strong work ethic?....a willingness to change, grow or mature?.....improved QB play?......more scoring?......what???
No....not really.....I dont know that he is an asset anywhere....thats purely an assumption.....
And, though he is improved from last year, I still see a guy who hasnt reached "base" maturity yet.....so, after rehab, he is still doing the same things he did last year...and only a week or 2 after being benched, he does EXACTLY what he was benched for...(again)...
Nope....I see a guy totally thumbing his nose at the fans(Ill do what I want, when I want).....and at his Coaches and his team.....
And this weeks TMZ 4-loco episode pretty much proves that to me.....100%....he just doesnt give a shit what the team wants and only cares about what HE wants.....sorry, but it's obvious.....
So.....saying the players had hope we would win last week is not "something he brings to the team"......what POSITIVES has he brought to the team.....leadership?.....maturity?.....quality play?.....a winning attitude?.....a strong work ethic?....a willingness to change, grow or mature?.....improved QB play?......more scoring?......what???
"He's showing his leadership capabilities,'' said Whitner.
"If it weren't for (Manziel), we would not have been in the position we were in today,'' said receiver Travis Benjamin (two catches, 20 yards). "He made plays and kept his eyes down field. Sometimes, when he scrambled, he looked like the old Johnny where he would get the first down and keep us in the game."
"It's tough we ran out of time,'' said Barnidge. "He was doing a good job. He was hustling up the plays. You could see the leadership in him. He got everyone going, got the plays called. I don't think we wasted any time.''
Crowell, who rushed for 88 yards on 16 carries, cited Manziel's leadership in the huddle.
"I felt like Johnny was in control,'' he said. "We made some good plays and we made a couple of bad plays. We made a bad play at the wrong time and I feel like that cost us the game."
Of course those are just his teammates and not experts from the internet.
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So draft Jake Coker this year right? Or is signing Greg McElroy more your speed?
QB was not our problem this year. McCown did a good job while he was healthy. I don't want to see the Browns go QB in the 1st round this year as we have so many other holes to fill. We already have one "1st round QB project" on the team, and we certainly don't need two - ASSuming your lil' fella is still a Brown next year.Hopefully we draft kids who love the game, and stay away from the Veikunes, Mingos, Gilberts, Warrens, and Powells that look great in shorts, and in some cases, look good with shorts, a helmet and loud, kool music thumpin' away.
Let's draft a bunch of high schoolers. They "love the game".QB was not our problem this year. McCown did a good job while he was healthy. I don't want to see the Browns go QB in the 1st round this year as we have so many other holes to fill. We already have one "1st round QB project" on the team, and we certainly don't need two - ASSuming your lil' fella is still a Brown next year.
Hopefully we draft kids who love the game, and stay away from the Veikunes, Mingos, Gilberts, Warrens, and Powells that look great in shorts, and in some cases, look good with shorts, a helmet and loud, kool music thumpin' away.
Ditch anyone who is making more than league minimum...obviously they love money more than the game. Get rid of anyone who is black, likes rap, drives anything other newer than a '99, has any social media accounts, has a girlfriend, has more than a one bedroom apartment, or has ingested anything beside water and grilled chicken in the past five years. None of those people love the game, they're in it for themselves.
If you run faster than a 4.75, you don't love the game...you love track. If you have less than 15% body fat, you don't love the game...you love working out. If you have long hair, you don't love the game...you love haircare.
Get rid of all of them.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride
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