Abortion Laws
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I think you are dancing around the question.
You get the chick pregnant and it's her decision to abort or not even though she knows there will be serious health problems. You have no place in the decision just the 18 years of support.
But you are correct, it's not an epidemic, even though one of my very best friends has a severely damaged twin brother who has been a ward of the state on and off for most of his life. Still is.
I'm kind of referencing the idea that if it is the woman's choice alone maybe it should be her responsibility alone?
WSS
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I think you are dancing around the question.
You get the chick pregnant and it's her decision to abort or not even though she knows there will be serious health problems. You have no place in the decision just the 18 years of support.
But you are correct, it's not an epidemic, even though one of my very best friends has a severely damaged twin brother who has been a ward of the state on and off for most of his life. Still is.
I'm kind of referencing the idea that if it is the woman's choice alone maybe it should be her responsibility alone?
WSS
I'm kind of referencing the idea that if it is the woman's choice alone maybe it should be her responsibility alone?
WSS
try to fly that one past the right wing nutjobs in this country. Cause of course what you suggest would increase the number of abortions. So if they want less abortions they have to be willing to foot the bill in these cases. Which is precisely why they won't support such a measure because they know they would be hemming themselves up.
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I'm kind of referencing the idea that if it is the woman's choice alone maybe it should be her responsibility alone?
WSS
try to fly that one past the right wing nutjobs in this country. Cause of course what you suggest would increase the number of abortions. So if they want less abortions they have to be willing to foot the bill in these cases. Which is precisely why they won't support such a measure because they know they would be hemming themselves up.
try to fly that one past the right wing nutjobs in this country. Cause of course what you suggest would increase the number of abortions. So if they want less abortions they have to be willing to foot the bill in these cases. Which is precisely why they won't support such a measure because they know they would be hemming themselves up.
Ha, actually try to fly that past the women over on the other side of the aisle.
Sure honey decide to do whatever you want with that kid. But I don't want anything to do with it so you're on your own. Enjoy your choice.
WSS
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I saw a man on television recently born without arms and legs who is living life to the fullest.
I'm not discounting that some people can make some semblance of a life with such deformities. But it ain't "full". If he doesn't have much in the way of cognitive disability then fine. But I see no valor in bringing forth severely mentally handicapped children into this world. I would rather those souls come back another time in a better form. But it's not my call, it's between the two souls involved in the pregnancy. And that is my firm final belief.
I'm not discounting that some people can make some semblance of a life with such deformities. But it ain't "full". If he doesn't have much in the way of cognitive disability then fine. But I see no valor in bringing forth severely mentally handicapped children into this world. I would rather those souls come back another time in a better form. But it's not my call, it's between the two souls involved in the pregnancy. And that is my firm final belief.
I had a cousin, erin, who was severely re tarded. I couldn't even point you to her particular re tardation but it was much more severe than downs syndrome. She died at age 21 but I can confirm that she lived. She was still able to enjoy things. She enjoyed music and swimming and her favorite television programs. She loved going to school and she loved to cuddle with people who loved her. Even with all her disabilities she found love in her short, unlucky life and you know what? She touched so many lives and people's hearts. I remember a family cruise when I was 18 or so, and an older guy approached us, crying and said she was the most beautiful person he'd ever met. Everyone found a reason to be a nicer person when they were around her and on the few occasions they didn't myself or her brothers or all of us would beat their fucking ass for them. When she died literally hundreds of people came to her funeral and when we carried her coffin to her final resting place we sang "pretty woman" and it was the hardest song I've ever sung because I was crying so hard. Because, you see, even with all her disabilities she found a reason and a way to live her life as a person and not a burden. The human spirit cannot be dampened down. She had a chance to live and love and experience creature comforts and I'd rather her have that chance 100% of the time than be aborted just like I'd rather live like she lived than be dead. One moment of true love or happiness is worth the price of admission.
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind... -
Nice post Cysko. Who decides what life is valuable and what isn't? It is a slippery slope once you go down that road. I don't think we should be making that call and should consider all life valuable and to be protected and not destroyed.
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I'm not discounting that some people can make some semblance of a life with such deformities. But it ain't "full". If he doesn't have much in the way of cognitive disability then fine. But I see no valor in bringing forth severely mentally handicapped children into this world. I would rather those souls come back another time in a better form. But it's not my call, it's between the two souls involved in the pregnancy. And that is my firm final belief.
I had a cousin, erin, who was severely re tarded. I couldn't even point you to her particular re tardation but it was much more severe than downs syndrome. She died at age 21 but I can confirm that she lived. She was still able to enjoy things. She enjoyed music and swimming and her favorite television programs. She loved going to school and she loved to cuddle with people who loved her. Even with all her disabilities she found love in her short, unlucky life and you know what? She touched so many lives and people's hearts. I remember a family cruise when I was 18 or so, and an older guy approached us, crying and said she was the most beautiful person he'd ever met. Everyone found a reason to be a nicer person when they were around her and on the few occasions they didn't myself or her brothers or all of us would beat their fucking ass for them. When she died literally hundreds of people came to her funeral and when we carried her coffin to her final resting place we sang "pretty woman" and it was the hardest song I've ever sung because I was crying so hard. Because, you see, even with all her disabilities she found a reason and a way to live her life as a person and not a burden. The human spirit cannot be dampened down. She had a chance to live and love and experience creature comforts and I'd rather her have that chance 100% of the time than be aborted just like I'd rather live like she lived than be dead. One moment of true love or happiness is worth the price of admission.
I had a cousin, erin, who was severely re tarded. I couldn't even point you to her particular re tardation but it was much more severe than downs syndrome. She died at age 21 but I can confirm that she lived. She was still able to enjoy things. She enjoyed music and swimming and her favorite television programs. She loved going to school and she loved to cuddle with people who loved her. Even with all her disabilities she found love in her short, unlucky life and you know what? She touched so many lives and people's hearts. I remember a family cruise when I was 18 or so, and an older guy approached us, crying and said she was the most beautiful person he'd ever met. Everyone found a reason to be a nicer person when they were around her and on the few occasions they didn't myself or her brothers or all of us would beat their fucking ass for them. When she died literally hundreds of people came to her funeral and when we carried her coffin to her final resting place we sang "pretty woman" and it was the hardest song I've ever sung because I was crying so hard. Because, you see, even with all her disabilities she found a reason and a way to live her life as a person and not a burden. The human spirit cannot be dampened down. She had a chance to live and love and experience creature comforts and I'd rather her have that chance 100% of the time than be aborted just like I'd rather live like she lived than be dead. One moment of true love or happiness is worth the price of admission.
That story worked out. I grant you there are plenty of times when things, to "our" perspective....seem to work out. But you can't take her exp and extrapolate it over the entire population of people who are born with these deformities. One of my best friends in life, him and his wife are "devout" catholics. Her first pregnancy they told her you've got a pretty good chance of not making it out alive. She went through with it anyway. Long story short she almost died and the kid was stillborn. My buddy told me dude I've been pro life my whole life....but seeing the fetus, I was so grateful the kid didn't live he would have had a disastrously miserable life. The fetus was just all kinds of mangled. Plus he almost lost his wife so life put perspective on him. Things worked out for them though, they now have two boys who are a couple years old each and no difficulties in pregnancy. And he's still got his wife to raise the kids. Perspective.
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No you're still not getting it because it's clear you've never had anyone like that to touch your life. That's fine. I may be a whole lot more jaded about it if it wasn't for "E". In the same way if I've never had my heart broken I might be tempted to tell a heartbroken friend "sack up, little buddy. Plenty of fish in the sea"
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No you're still not getting it because it's clear you've never had anyone like that to touch your life. That's fine. I may be a whole lot more jaded about it if it wasn't for "E". In the same way if I've never had my heart broken I might be tempted to tell a heartbroken friend "sack up, little buddy. Plenty of fish in the sea"
No you're still not getting it because it's clear you've never had anyone like that to touch your life. That's fine. I may be a whole lot more jaded about it if it wasn't for "E". In the same way if I've never had my heart broken I might be tempted to tell a heartbroken friend "sack up, little buddy. Plenty of fish in the sea"
Of course in a matter of time that advice will make sense to the injured party.
WSS
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In other words without her it would have been easy to harden my heart and look at a re tarded person and say "they have no value, they can't contribute, the world would be better off without them" but by changing my opinion her life DID have value. It made me a better person, a more compassionate person. That's a quantifiable value, to me.
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No you're still not getting it because it's clear you've never had anyone like that to touch your life. That's fine. I may be a whole lot more jaded about it if it wasn't for "E". In the same way if I've never had my heart broken I might be tempted to tell a heartbroken friend "sack up, little buddy. Plenty of fish in the sea"
Of course in a matter of time that advice will make sense to the injured party.
WSS
Eventually of course but the lesson that you learn from feeling that pain sticks with you forever.Of course in a matter of time that advice will make sense to the injured party.
WSS
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I had a cousin, erin, who was severely re tarded. I couldn't even point you to her particular re tardation but it was much more severe than downs syndrome. She died at age 21 but I can confirm that she lived. She was still able to enjoy things. She enjoyed music and swimming and her favorite television programs. She loved going to school and she loved to cuddle with people who loved her. Even with all her disabilities she found love in her short, unlucky life and you know what? She touched so many lives and people's hearts. I remember a family cruise when I was 18 or so, and an older guy approached us, crying and said she was the most beautiful person he'd ever met. Everyone found a reason to be a nicer person when they were around her and on the few occasions they didn't myself or her brothers or all of us would beat their fucking ass for them. When she died literally hundreds of people came to her funeral and when we carried her coffin to her final resting place we sang "pretty woman" and it was the hardest song I've ever sung because I was crying so hard. Because, you see, even with all her disabilities she found a reason and a way to live her life as a person and not a burden. The human spirit cannot be dampened down. She had a chance to live and love and experience creature comforts and I'd rather her have that chance 100% of the time than be aborted just like I'd rather live like she lived than be dead. One moment of true love or happiness is worth the price of admission.
That story worked out. I grant you there are plenty of times when things, to "our" perspective....seem to work out. But you can't take her exp and extrapolate it over the entire population of people who are born with these deformities. One of my best friends in life, him and his wife are "devout" catholics. Her first pregnancy they told her you've got a pretty good chance of not making it out alive. She went through with it anyway. Long story short she almost died and the kid was stillborn. My buddy told me dude I've been pro life my whole life....but seeing the fetus, I was so grateful the kid didn't live he would have had a disastrously miserable life. The fetus was just all kinds of mangled. Plus he almost lost his wife so life put perspective on him. Things worked out for them though, they now have two boys who are a couple years old each and no difficulties in pregnancy. And he's still got his wife to raise the kids. Perspective.
Its easy to look at a near miss and say "thank god I dodged that bullet" if you're texting while driving and you almost cause a head on collision you say "well that was close" and then go on doing what you're doing. If you do cause a collision then you really learn something about what you've been doing wrong. Provided you live, of course.That story worked out. I grant you there are plenty of times when things, to "our" perspective....seem to work out. But you can't take her exp and extrapolate it over the entire population of people who are born with these deformities. One of my best friends in life, him and his wife are "devout" catholics. Her first pregnancy they told her you've got a pretty good chance of not making it out alive. She went through with it anyway. Long story short she almost died and the kid was stillborn. My buddy told me dude I've been pro life my whole life....but seeing the fetus, I was so grateful the kid didn't live he would have had a disastrously miserable life. The fetus was just all kinds of mangled. Plus he almost lost his wife so life put perspective on him. Things worked out for them though, they now have two boys who are a couple years old each and no difficulties in pregnancy. And he's still got his wife to raise the kids. Perspective.
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In other words without her it would have been easy to harden my heart and look at a re tarded person and say "they have no value, they can't contribute, the world would be better off without them" but by changing my opinion her life DID have value. It made me a better person, a more compassionate person. That's a quantifiable value, to me.
In other words without her it would have been easy to harden my heart and look at a re tarded person and say "they have no value, they can't contribute, the world would be better off without them" but by changing my opinion her life DID have value. It made me a better person, a more compassionate person. That's a quantifiable value, to me.
There's a lot of grey area here so this isn't cut and dry, wasn't trying to make it so. It sounds like your relative did indeed have a definitive quality of life. Sometimes doctors can say well there will be some downs syndrome but he/she can still have some semblance of a life. So i'm not saying anytime some potential for Retardation is found that you abort. But there are times when doctors can say with reasonable assurance that this child will never dress themselves right or use the toilet without help...."ever". In such cases you have to evaluate things.
Look in the "good ole' days of the old testament they put these kids as newborn infants out in nature and if they live the live they die they die. That's horrible. We now have the ability to say maybe you should come down another time young soul, this life won't even register to you.
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Great work. The Old Testament! You've got him there bud.
Next up? The ASPCD tries to curb cruelty to dinosaurs.
WSS
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In other words without her it would have been easy to harden my heart and look at a re tarded person and say "they have no value, they can't contribute, the world would be better off without them" but by changing my opinion her life DID have value. It made me a better person, a more compassionate person. That's a quantifiable value, to me.
There's a lot of grey area here so this isn't cut and dry, wasn't trying to make it so. It sounds like your relative did indeed have a definitive quality of life. Sometimes doctors can say well there will be some downs syndrome but he/she can still have some semblance of a life. So i'm not saying anytime some potential for Retardation is found that you abort. But there are times when doctors can say with reasonable assurance that this child will never dress themselves right or use the toilet without help...."ever". In such cases you have to evaluate things.
Look in the "good ole' days of the old testament they put these kids as newborn infants out in nature and if they live the live they die they die. That's horrible. We now have the ability to say maybe you should come down another time young soul, this life won't even register to you.
There's a lot of grey area here so this isn't cut and dry, wasn't trying to make it so. It sounds like your relative did indeed have a definitive quality of life. Sometimes doctors can say well there will be some downs syndrome but he/she can still have some semblance of a life. So i'm not saying anytime some potential for Retardation is found that you abort. But there are times when doctors can say with reasonable assurance that this child will never dress themselves right or use the toilet without help...."ever". In such cases you have to evaluate things.
Look in the "good ole' days of the old testament they put these kids as newborn infants out in nature and if they live the live they die they die. That's horrible. We now have the ability to say maybe you should come down another time young soul, this life won't even register to you.
What part of "way more severely re tarded" than downs syndrome wasn't I making clear?
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind... -
There's a lot of grey area here so this isn't cut and dry, wasn't trying to make it so. It sounds like your relative did indeed have a definitive quality of life. Sometimes doctors can say well there will be some downs syndrome but he/she can still have some semblance of a life. So i'm not saying anytime some potential for Retardation is found that you abort. But there are times when doctors can say with reasonable assurance that this child will never dress themselves right or use the toilet without help...."ever". In such cases you have to evaluate things.
Look in the "good ole' days of the old testament they put these kids as newborn infants out in nature and if they live the live they die they die. That's horrible. We now have the ability to say maybe you should come down another time young soul, this life won't even register to you.
What part of "way more severely re tarded" than downs syndrome wasn't I making clear?
What part of "way more severely re tarded" than downs syndrome wasn't I making clear?
Perhaps the 'light hearted fun' autocorrecting of 're tard' to Retard doesn't help in that regard.
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There's a lot of grey area here so this isn't cut and dry, wasn't trying to make it so. It sounds like your relative did indeed have a definitive quality of life. Sometimes doctors can say well there will be some downs syndrome but he/she can still have some semblance of a life. So i'm not saying anytime some potential for Retardation is found that you abort. But there are times when doctors can say with reasonable assurance that this child will never dress themselves right or use the toilet without help...."ever". In such cases you have to evaluate things.
Look in the "good ole' days of the old testament they put these kids as newborn infants out in nature and if they live the live they die they die. That's horrible. We now have the ability to say maybe you should come down another time young soul, this life won't even register to you.
What part of "way more severely re tarded" than downs syndrome wasn't I making clear?
What part of "way more severely re tarded" than downs syndrome wasn't I making clear?
downs syndrome is a continuum. In any case the events you described clearly show that this person had some idea of this world and her surroundings. So how much more Retarded than a severe downs syndrome case can you get before someone is nearly comatose.
In the end though this discussion between two "men" is kind of irrelevant. This is between a woman and the child. If she feels it isn't right to bring a child into the world than that's what we have to accept because the universe made them the birthers right? So until men start carrying children this just needs to stop. Women who flippantly have abortions are free to do so but the rest of society is free to disassociate itself from them. That's how I wish this shit worked.
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What part of "way more severely re tarded" than downs syndrome wasn't I making clear?
downs syndrome is a continuum. In any case the events you described clearly show that this person had some idea of this world and her surroundings. So how much more Retarded than a severe downs syndrome case can you get before someone is nearly comatose.
In the end though this discussion between two "men" is kind of irrelevant. This is between a woman and the child. If she feels it isn't right to bring a child into the world than that's what we have to accept because the universe made them the birthers right? So until men start carrying children this just needs to stop. Women who flippantly have abortions are free to do so but the rest of society is free to disassociate itself from them. That's how I wish this shit worked.
downs syndrome is a continuum. In any case the events you described clearly show that this person had some idea of this world and her surroundings. So how much more Retard than a severe downs syndrome case can you get before someone is nearly comatose.
In the end though this discussion between two "men" is kind of irrelevant. This is between a woman and the child. If she feels it isn't right to bring a child into the world than that's what we have to accept because the universe made them the birthers right? So until men start carrying children this just needs to stop. Women who flippantly have abortions are free to do so but the rest of society is free to disassociate itself from them. That's how I wish this shit worked.
You can be way, way, more disabled than simple downs syndrome and still be a living person with feelings and emotions and likes and dislikes capable of feeling love. Most downs syndrome people can hold simple jobs. Erin was a person that easily could have been aborted. They said she'd never talk and she learned to talk, after her fashion. Certainly if you had spent enough time with her you could make out what she was saying. Her talking never was able to get very sophisticated but she was able to use a machine (like stephen hawkings) to communicate things too sophisticated for her. They said she'd never learn to walk, but she did learn to walk, with a walker. They said she'd never live to be past 7 or 8 and she lived until she was 21. The point is, there is no life without value. The odds can always be beaten. If no one had loved Erin or nurtured her and just stuck her in a group home she might not have made it as far as she did. As it was, she showed me an indomitable spirit. To make so much out of what most people would have thought was so little was inspiring.
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