Enough of This Nonsense
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IMO, he played when the rules were MORE challenging to QBs and receivers. When he averaged 4000 passing yards a year for 3 consecutive years, the league wasn't trying to increase the scoring by handcuffing the DBs. Plus, MORE teams played on grass outdoors where it included rain, snow, mudd and slippery footballs. Peyton Manning plays indoors, Drew Brees plays indoors, Moon/Culpepper/Cunningham played indoors up in Minn, Warner played indoors before heading to Arizona. There's also more turfs thought to induce better straight ahead foot speed, which helps seperation. Now, more offenses are using the no-huddle to keep tired legs of pass rushers on the field. I add all that up and the sum does not equal too overwhelming for Sipe IMO.
don't let the devil's advocate fool ya, i'm a Brian Sipe superfan. but Tom, he was 175 pounds soaking wet and threw like Dorsey. nuff said. i don't like comparing eras either but let's be real.
you make some good points but i think we both know the answer. if the rest of my post could garner the attention that first sentence did i'd probably still be reading.
i know they were blitzing him like mad but those defenders got significant pressure on Brady in those games. you're astute, you had to see it to.don't let the devil's advocate fool ya, i'm a Brian Sipe superfan. but Tom, he was 175 pounds soaking wet and threw like Dorsey. nuff said. i don't like comparing eras either but let's be real.
you make some good points but i think we both know the answer. if the rest of my post could garner the attention that first sentence did i'd probably still be reading.
i know they were blitzing him like mad but those defenders got significant pressure on Brady in those games. you're astute, you had to see it to.Thanks for the reply Sisky. Appreciate your feedback and it sounds like I just need to clarify a couple things. Don't feel bad if you disagree. I value your opinions either way. NOBODY thought Sipe could play back in HIS era if we remember what being a 13th round pick represented. There's guys that defy the laws of logic and reason in every era. I think we often get too uncomfortable with the uniqueness of it all to fully appreciate what we're witnessing. Flutie led a Buffalo team to the playoffs and get benched for Rob Johnson because RoJo was thought to be the prototype while Flutie wasnt supposed to be successful. I never heard a creative answer that made sense justifying the reason why Buffalo chose to hang themselves that post season. Served em right though.
I disagree that he threw the ball like Dorsey. If I ever saw Sipe throwing the ball like Dorsey - I'd be asking why couldn't he get the ball past the line of scrimmage when the wind was blowing instead remembering MY golden age of being a Browns' fan. You don't think the winds off Lake Erie are stronger today than they were in the late 70s/early 80s do you?
I judge a QB by what he does to those around him. For instance, how memorable was Reggie Rucker's career before playing with Sipe? He was a journeyman that played for Dallas, NE and the Giants. He came here and became an important part of our offense. Old men like Paul Warfield and Calvin Hill revived their careers when they were deemed too old elsewhere. Other average Joes like Dave Logan and Rickey Feacher elevated their level of play around Sipe. EVERYONE in the offense got better; and that was a reminder we had the RIGHT guy. If we replaced Sipe with the STRONGER arm and 210 pounds of the 6'3" Mike Phipps what would have happened to all that? I can only go by what guy made things happen and what one didn't. We did prototype vrs special. Because the results were so glaringly uncomfortable about Phipps - we prolly spent 1-2 seasons too many dotting our i's and crossing our t's with Phipps. Sipe came in and suddenly everything that was previously overwhelmingly became doable on a weekly basis. If Sipe played today, what makes you think he'd only be 175 pounds?
MAYBE the reason alot of us liked a Brian Sipe or a Bernie Kosar is because of what they did with those imperfections they had. I see Ken Dorsey throwing a football the way my wife throws it and I can only ask: how the Hell was THIS guy kept here for 2 years as a TUTOR to our young QBs? Sipe had BETTER vision and pocket presence than Dorsey too. Bernie had a side-arm and on occasion a softball pitcher's delivery BUT his passing efficiency went through the roof and we went to 3 AFC Championships because of it. Hard to complain. When we had a kicktail line for Bernie - nobody cared how immobile he was. Tom Brady running his 40s in Indy didn't look much faster if I'm being honest.
- Tom F. (You're buddy Flugel is a stubborn old man!)
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great post Tom. i started smiling a couple of sentences in and haven't stopped.
i love hearing those things and being reminded of why we love the guys we love, guys that define heart. guys that to me define the Browns. we're often hardest on those we love. Brian could chuck it boy, it may have looked like a kickoff sometimes but it got there. on the money too. Lake Erie blows, he had something for sure. you deserved a better example than Dorsey for sure, but i grabbed it because it was recent and a Brownie. a poor choice on my part. it's even a little weird referring to Ken Dorsey as a Brownie. you know? that's kind of what those guys brought. you had faith in them. the guys rallied behind them w/ muddy faces. back when everybody had worn out torn banners and i scanned the crowd for orange tuxedos, complete with the blaze orange sneakers. and let's not forget Bernie went like three plus years w/out an INT.
thanks Tom, i for one am glad you're stubborn. sometimes we need reminded.
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You know what scares me about DA is the lack of progression. He is still making the same throws and staring down the same recievers like he did when he first started. DA only has a quick release because he only looks at the first two recievers and gets rid of it. He never lets a play develop. I would expect a QB after 26 starts to at least progress or show some signs of improvement.
So the question is do you want to start a guy who you know is gonna keep making the same mistakes over and over again, or someone that actually might be able to learn and grow from those experiences?
if you didn't see progression you weren't watching. even i saw it.
he made tons of better reads, improved on his short game some, and attempted to allow plays to develop when necessary. per your handle, if you watched Kosar you know that on many, many of his throws the ball was also in the air before the receiver turned around>>for years. that's how it is in the pro game, you run a play and throw to a spot. you don't have all day to find a target while the pass rush is counting to ten out loud.that last bit was rhetorical, right? while i may come off as a DA defender it's sometimes about pr w/ me. and if he ends up being the QB for the Browns you can thank the few of us around here that helped the guy feel a little more welcome. i post w/ the understanding that our players might be reading the board too.
if you didn't see progression you weren't watching. even i saw it.
he made tons of better reads, improved on his short game some, and attempted to allow plays to develop when necessary. per your handle, if you watched Kosar you know that on many, many of his throws the ball was also in the air before the receiver turned around>>for years. that's how it is in the pro game, you run a play and throw to a spot. you don't have all day to find a target while the pass rush is counting to ten out loud.
that last bit was rhetorical, right? while i may come off as a DA defender it's sometimes about pr w/ me. and if he ends up being the QB for the Browns you can thank the few of us around here that helped the guy feel a little more welcome. i post w/ the understanding that our players might be reading the board too.
I was watching and I didn't see it. Yeah he checked down but for the majority of the time he's still doing the same thing looking at his first two reads and getting rid of it. Go watch tape on DA than watch Quinn because there is a difference. Quinn goes through all his progressions than goes to the checkdown. Not look at the first two reads than go to the checkdown. Or just throw into triple coverage because he thinks he can fit the ball anywhere. At least thats what I see when I watch him play. Everytime he drops back to pass I'm hoping he doesn't screw up.
Yes it was rhetorical but I appreciate your thoughts and comments. It's just a difference of opinion.
In the end I just want what's best for the team as do most people around here except for a few.
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if you didn't see progression you weren't watching. even i saw it.
he made tons of better reads, improved on his short game some, and attempted to allow plays to develop when necessary. per your handle, if you watched Kosar you know that on many, many of his throws the ball was also in the air before the receiver turned around>>for years. that's how it is in the pro game, you run a play and throw to a spot. you don't have all day to find a target while the pass rush is counting to ten out loud.
that last bit was rhetorical, right? while i may come off as a DA defender it's sometimes about pr w/ me. and if he ends up being the QB for the Browns you can thank the few of us around here that helped the guy feel a little more welcome. i post w/ the understanding that our players might be reading the board too.
I was watching and I didn't see it. Yeah he checked down but for the majority of the time he's still doing the same thing looking at his first two reads and getting rid of it. Go watch tape on DA than watch Quinn because there is a difference. Quinn goes through all his progressions than goes to the checkdown. Not look at the first two reads than go to the checkdown. Or just throw into triple coverage because he thinks he can fit the ball anywhere. At least thats what I see when I watch him play. Everytime he drops back to pass I'm hoping he doesn't screw up.
Yes it was rhetorical but I appreciate your thoughts and comments. It's just a difference of opinion.
In the end I just want what's best for the team as do most people around here except for a few.
I was watching and I didn't see it. Yeah he checked down but for the majority of the time he's still doing the same thing looking at his first two reads and getting rid of it. Go watch tape on DA than watch Quinn because there is a difference. Quinn goes through all his progressions than goes to the checkdown. Not look at the first two reads than go to the checkdown. Or just throw into triple coverage because he thinks he can fit the ball anywhere. At least thats what I see when I watch him play. Everytime he drops back to pass I'm hoping he doesn't screw up.
Yes it was rhetorical but I appreciate your thoughts and comments. It's just a difference of opinion.
In the end I just want what's best for the team as do most people around here except for a few.
thanks for the reply BtK. i was thinking back and remember one of my very posts on this board, about this time a few years ago. in essence it said i hoped whomever the Browns went after for QB i hope he's lights out awesome, head and shoulders above the two we had (Frye/Anderson). otherwise i feared Charlie or whoever would be just good enough to continue this never-ending circle of suck.
and yet here we are.
either both these guys are better than i think or this city has a serious curse on it.
there's really only one option as i see it: having faith in Mangini & Co.
what say let's see what these guys can accomplish with our full support. here's to 8-8 **cheers**
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@medicineman said:
it seems to me you guys just want Quinn. That is just retarted. I just want wins. DA gave us 10 wins back in 2007 and you cant say nothing about that? And I dont want to hear we were playn shitty teams. They were NFL teams you assholes. You same Retards cry about lummy liken DA when you are the same way with Quinn. And for the record I dont want Quinn or Anderson on the team. Im just wondering if Quinn does get shipped how many of you boners will be gone to? So come on and quote everything I just wrote because I cant wait to get into it with you so line em up you used condomsTomorrow is a school day. Does Mommy know that you're up past your night-night time using her computer?
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@medicineman said:
it seems to me you guys just want Quinn. That is just retarted. I just want wins. DA gave us 10 wins back in 2007 and you cant say nothing about that? And I dont want to hear we were playn shitty teams. They were NFL teams you assholes. You same Retards cry about lummy liken DA when you are the same way with Quinn. And for the record I dont want Quinn or Anderson on the team. Im just wondering if Quinn does get shipped how many of you boners will be gone to? So come on and quote everything I just wrote because I cant wait to get into it with you so line em up you used condomsGood read.
Who needs King Kaufman, Chuck Klosterman or even Bill Simmons when you have medicineman?
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@medicineman said:
That is just retarted.Post of the year.
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@medicineman said:
it seems to me you guys just want Quinn. That is just retarted. I just want wins. DA gave us 10 wins back in 2007 and you cant say nothing about that? And I dont want to hear we were playn shitty teams. They were NFL teams you assholes. You same Retards cry about lummy liken DA when you are the same way with Quinn. And for the record I dont want Quinn or Anderson on the team. Im just wondering if Quinn does get shipped how many of you boners will be gone to? So come on and quote everything I just wrote because I cant wait to get into it with you so line em up you used condomsYou want us to cry about winning 10 games?
How about this one?
He handed wins 11, 12 and 13 to Oakland, Arizona and Cincitucki on silver platter or we would have been in the playoffs.
Hell if he would have done better than a Goofy's "Aw shucks, at least it wasn't 5 picks!" then we'd all be hailing him as a savior not a one year wonder.
And maybe we all wouldn't be so hard on the guy if Lummy hadn't antagonized the living hell out of all of us by calling us Quinn fags any time we said anything that could have possibly been considered negative.
I'll admit most of my animosity towards Drive Assasin comes from being attacked by Lums every time I pointed out one of DA's faults.
As a matter of fact, I wasn't sold on Quinn before we drafted him and still am not sure, but before we trade or let walk away a 1st round pick I want to see if the kid can cut the mustard or not.
3 seasons until our new head coach, let's hope they get it right this time. -
@medicineman said:
it seems to me you guys just want Quinn. That is just retarted. I just want wins. DA gave us 10 wins back in 2007 and you cant say nothing about that?Well someone already pointed out the games DA threw away (literally). I also guess Winslow, BE, and JJ getting laid out left and right to make plays on bad throws in each and every one of those wins had nothing to do with it.
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@medicineman said:
it seems to me you guys just want Quinn. That is just retarted. I just want wins. DA gave us 10 wins back in 2007 and you cant say nothing about that?Well someone already pointed out the games DA threw away (literally). I also guess Winslow, BE, and JJ getting laid out left and right to make plays on bad throws in each and every one of those wins had nothing to do with it.
Masters said:
Well someone already pointed out the games DA threw away (literally). I also guess Winslow, BE, and JJ getting laid out left and right to make plays on bad throws in each and every one of those wins had nothing to do with it.The guy is just a troll....don't even feed it. Just hit the ignore button and have some real football discussion.
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@medicineman said:
I really love getting people a little angry. You should read what I wrote on one of the Shitburgh boards im on. I swear they have no class at all.Don't confuse class with stupidity . Unfortunately you are stupid and may find it difficult to discern the diff .
Go away troll
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@inspecta said:
So, any guesses on who medicineman really is? He just smacks of somebody's puppet.He spells like he goes to college at Oregon State so if I had to take a stab at it - it's one of Loverboy's pledges who also answers to "Plays-with-self."
I'm seeing some outrageous names from that campus. What's the other one? "Drunkandstupid" which of course is code for Honor Roll.
And just when it couldn't get any more outrageous - I saw Horseballs was lurking in this thread practicing his reading pace for Evelyn Woodhead.
- Tom F.
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@medicineman said:
it seems to me you guys just want Quinn. That is just retarted. I just want wins. DA gave us 10 wins back in 2007 and you cant say nothing about that? And I dont want to hear we were playn shitty teams. They were NFL teams you assholes. You same Retards cry about lummy liken DA when you are the same way with Quinn. And for the record I dont want Quinn or Anderson on the team. Im just wondering if Quinn does get shipped how many of you boners will be gone to? So come on and quote everything I just wrote because I cant wait to get into it with you so line em up you used condomsYou want us to cry about winning 10 games?
How about this one?
He handed wins 11, 12 and 13 to Oakland, Arizona and Cincitucki on silver platter or we would have been in the playoffs.
Hell if he would have done better than a Goofy's "Aw shucks, at least it wasn't 5 picks!" then we'd all be hailing him as a savior not a one year wonder.
And maybe we all wouldn't be so hard on the guy if Lummy hadn't antagonized the living hell out of all of us by calling us Quinn fags any time we said anything that could have possibly been considered negative.
I'll admit most of my animosity towards Drive Assasin comes from being attacked by Lums every time I pointed out one of DA's faults.
As a matter of fact, I wasn't sold on Quinn before we drafted him and still am not sure, but before we trade or let walk away a 1st round pick I want to see if the kid can cut the mustard or not.
You want us to cry about winning 10 games?
How about this one?
He handed wins 11, 12 and 13 to Oakland, Arizona and Cincitucki on silver platter or we would have been in the playoffs.
Hell if he would have done better than a Goofy's "Aw shucks, at least it wasn't 5 picks!" then we'd all be hailing him as a savior not a one year wonder.
And maybe we all wouldn't be so hard on the guy if Lummy hadn't antagonized the living hell out of all of us by calling us Quinn fags any time we said anything that could have possibly been considered negative.
I'll admit most of my animosity towards Drive Assasin comes from being attacked by Lums every time I pointed out one of DA's faults.
As a matter of fact, I wasn't sold on Quinn before we drafted him and still am not sure, but before we trade or let walk away a 1st round pick I want to see if the kid can cut the mustard or not.
I'll give you the Cincy game, but Arizona and Oakland were aided GREATLY by the Browns' lack of defense.
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You want us to cry about winning 10 games?
How about this one?
He handed wins 11, 12 and 13 to Oakland, Arizona and Cincitucki on silver platter or we would have been in the playoffs.
Hell if he would have done better than a Goofy's "Aw shucks, at least it wasn't 5 picks!" then we'd all be hailing him as a savior not a one year wonder.
And maybe we all wouldn't be so hard on the guy if Lummy hadn't antagonized the living hell out of all of us by calling us Quinn fags any time we said anything that could have possibly been considered negative.
I'll admit most of my animosity towards Drive Assasin comes from being attacked by Lums every time I pointed out one of DA's faults.
As a matter of fact, I wasn't sold on Quinn before we drafted him and still am not sure, but before we trade or let walk away a 1st round pick I want to see if the kid can cut the mustard or not.
I'll give you the Cincy game, but Arizona and Oakland were aided GREATLY by the Browns' lack of defense.
I'll give you the Cincy game, but Arizona and Oakland were aided GREATLY by the Browns' lack of defense.
How many points did the defense give up as a direct result of boat shoes turnovers?
Tough to blame the defense when the QB is turning the ball over.
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Folks,
You have my word. If Derek Anderson is STILL starting here after our 8th game - I will show up to a tailgate party dressed in baby diapers and pink Spandex with a pacifier in my mouth for all to see.
DA isn't another Walt Disney story working it's way toward another happily ever after. I don't care if Loverboy has his Lancelot armour on or not. This isn't Camelot either even though the word on the street is Loverboy came-a-lot.
Do any Frat boys out West have the grapefruits to reciprocate my challenge? Don't tell me Tonya Harding has more testicles than the entire Beaver Nation.
- Tom F.
Folks,
You have my word. If Derek Anderson is STILL starting here after our 8th game - I will show up to a tailgate party dressed in baby diapers and pink Spandex with a pacifier in my mouth for all to see.
Fluge's - if it come to this, I'll have to buy tickets just to witness this........
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Hard to blame the defense entirely when you're giving those teams starting field position in field goal range.
Hard to blame the defense entirely when you're giving those teams starting field position in field goal range.
I'm getting tired of having to go check out the play by play...
Oakland Game: Oakland's second half scores came off an 11 play 85 yard drive and a 17 play 80 yard drive.
Arizona Game: Arizona's second half scores came off a 22 yard drive following a J. Cribs fumble, a 40 yard drive following a 59 yard return (and it wasn't an intercepted pass return), and an 80 yard 11 play drive.
DA was moving the ball, the other teams, not necessarily known for their power offenses that season, just outscored him.
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@medicineman said:
Boy oh boy the grammer police are here. When you cant find nothing else you go after grammer. You really have no life do you? I bet your parents are proud of what a waste you are.Hopefully you were being sarcastic, otherwise you weren't helping yourself. Grammar. Sorry, I couldn't resist.
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Hard to blame the defense entirely when you're giving those teams starting field position in field goal range.
I'm getting tired of having to go check out the play by play...
Oakland Game: Oakland's second half scores came off an 11 play 85 yard drive and a 17 play 80 yard drive.
Arizona Game: Arizona's second half scores came off a 22 yard drive following a J. Cribs fumble, a 40 yard drive following a 59 yard return (and it wasn't an intercepted pass return), and an 80 yard 11 play drive.
DA was moving the ball, the other teams, not necessarily known for their power offenses that season, just outscored him.
I'm getting tired of having to go check out the play by play...
Oakland Game: Oakland's second half scores came off an 11 play 85 yard drive and a 17 play 80 yard drive.
Arizona Game: Arizona's second half scores came off a 22 yard drive following a J. Cribs fumble, a 40 yard drive following a 59 yard return (and it wasn't an intercepted pass return), and an 80 yard 11 play drive.
DA was moving the ball, the other teams, not necessarily known for their power offenses that season, just outscored him.
You're tired? I am tired of you OR fans not being able to read and not watching the games.
OAK Game: Why do you gloss over DA's back to back second quarter INTs that led to a FGs? Or his numerous streaks of incomplete passes and penalties because he can't get the line lined up?
ARZ: Why do you gloss over DA's pick 6 on his first drive of the game? I won't even mention that he threw a second pick to the same guy who took the first one to the house.
Yeah, ARZ isn't known for their offense, even in 2007
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