Browns lose Desmond Bryant for the season
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All those stats from Gip leads me to believe he needs to get out and play football at some level to understand the differences in position play with respect to name.
If we must be technical Mr 'no difference between 43 34' your classic LE is actually your primary run stopper to the outside. Again this is in a pure traditional sense as most teams put their greatest value in their RE being a blind side pass rusher being most QB's are right handed. Ergo the premium price tag on LT's compared to Right.
You need to get out of the 60's mindset (when DE's were still run stoppers first and foremost - so piss poor example) out of your Madden mindset and set foot on a real field.
All those stats from Gip leads me to believe he needs to get out and play football at some level to understand the differences in position play with respect to name.
If we must be technical Mr 'no difference between 43 34' your classic LE is actually your primary run stopper to the outside. Again this is in a pure traditional sense as most teams put their greatest value in their RE being a blind side pass rusher being most QB's are right handed. Ergo the premium price tag on LT's compared to Right.
You need to get out of the 60's mindset (when DE's were still run stoppers first and foremost - so piss poor example) out of your Madden mindset and set foot on a real field.
Both DEs and OLBs have run stopping duties. Both DE's and OLBs have pass rushing duties. Even DEs have occasional pass coverage duties.
But to say that a DE does NOT have primary pass rush duties....be it the 30s/50s/60s/70s/90s/or 2010s is assinine.
When a team runs, their duty is to stop the run. When the opponent passes, their duty is to rush the passer.....the LDE is not going to sit there and watch for the run when the QB goes back to pass....even if his first assignment is to watch for the run. These guys are not supposed to be pre-programmed potted plants.
Its not rocket science, its football.
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Opportunity... smoportunity...
Should force us more to 4-3 looks since we are now one starter thinner with 3-4 DEs...
But then there is always the waiver wire...
3-4 DEs are interior players. PFF grades them along with DTs and they grade 3-4 OLBs along with 4-3 DEs simply as "EDGE."
Yup... and most, if not all, of Gip's original list were 4-3 DEs. IIRC only Bruce Smith was a 3-4 guy.
Opportunity... smoportunity...
Should force us more to 4-3 looks since we are now one starter thinner with 3-4 DEs...
But then there is always the waiver wire...
Yup... and most, if not all, of Gip's original list were 4-3 DEs. IIRC only Bruce Smith was a 3-4 guy.
I don't care if a guy was a 4-3 or a 3-4.......It is still a primary requisite of that DE to rush on a passing play. While they may do it at times they are NOT supposed to be merely block gobblers. Are the OLBs also...and perhaps expected to get free-er more often on pass rushing? Certainly.
But if block gobbling and run protection is all you wanted out of a DE....you wouldn't use a DE....you would use 3 Nose Tackles in a 3-4.
I don't know, maybe the Browns should try that.
I also don't think Smith was the only 3-4 guy. Jared Allen, Jason Taylor, I think both played more in the 3-4.
Freeney and Mathis? I don't know what that team played.
And here is the other point....it seems that many people are interchangeable....is Barkevious Mingo considered a DE or an OLB. What about Sheard when he was here? PFR lists Kruger as a DE....I thought he was considered an OLB.
So, sometimes terminology is confused. As someone said, these guys are "edge" players.
Well...sometimes we just play with a double edged blade. Both the OLB and the DE...including in a 3-4, can be edge players.
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"Primary duty" is not the same as "in best position to do so".
Also take note of the physical make-up of 4-3 vs. 3-4 DEs, Gip. By and large they are different breeds.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
"Primary duty" is not the same as "in best position to do so".
Also take note of the physical make-up of 4-3 vs. 3-4 DEs, Gip. By and large they are different breeds.
"Primary duty" is not the same as "in best position to do so".
Also take note of the physical make-up of 4-3 vs. 3-4 DEs, Gip. By and large they are different breeds.
Forget it he's rolling.
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"Primary duty" is not the same as "in best position to do so".
Also take note of the physical make-up of 4-3 vs. 3-4 DEs, Gip. By and large they are different breeds.
"Primary duty" is not the same as "in best position to do so".
Also take note of the physical make-up of 4-3 vs. 3-4 DEs, Gip. By and large they are different breeds.
All that may be true.....but to say that rushing the passer is not a primary duty of a Defensive End is just Ludicrous.
That would be like saying that catching passes is not the primary duty of a tight end. Of course it is a primary duty of a Tight End to catch passes. Yes, he has other duties, like blocking.....and some TEs may be better at pass catching than others.....and some DEs 4/3/3/4 may be better at rushing the passer than others.....but it is still a primary duty of the DE to do that.
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If that is what you call "being right"...so be it.
It's not... except in "Gipworld"...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Pigeons, chess, etc.
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If that is what you call "being right"...so be it.
It's not... except in "Gipworld"...
It's not... except in "Gipworld"...
All right.....let's me act as stupid as you....and agree that Defensive Ends have no responsibility for rushing the passer. Let them all sit there like potted plants when the QB goes back to pass. Just occasionally put their hands in the air to bat down a pass.
Yea, right.
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It's not... except in "Gipworld"...
All right.....let's me act as stupid as you....and agree that Defensive Ends have no responsibility for rushing the passer. Let them all sit there like potted plants when the QB goes back to pass. Just occasionally put their hands in the air to bat down a pass.
Yea, right.
All right.....let's me act as stupid as you....and agree that Defensive Ends have no responsibility for rushing the passer. Let them all sit there like potted plants when the QB goes back to pass. Just occasionally put their hands in the air to bat down a pass.
Yea, right.
You're confusing 'no resonsibility' for 'primary responsibility'.
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All right.....let's me act as stupid as you....and agree that Defensive Ends have no responsibility for rushing the passer. Let them all sit there like potted plants when the QB goes back to pass. Just occasionally put their hands in the air to bat down a pass.
Yea, right.
You're confusing 'no resonsibility' for 'primary responsibility'.
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Opportunity... smoportunity...
Should force us more to 4-3 looks since we are now one starter thinner with 3-4 DEs...
But then there is always the waiver wire...
3-4 DEs are interior players. PFF grades them along with DTs and they grade 3-4 OLBs along with 4-3 DEs simply as "EDGE."
Yup... and most, if not all, of Gip's original list were 4-3 DEs. IIRC only Bruce Smith was a 3-4 guy.
Opportunity... smoportunity...
Should force us more to 4-3 looks since we are now one starter thinner with 3-4 DEs...
But then there is always the waiver wire...
Or just add Myles Garrett next year since we will likely be in position to actually keep our high 1st rounder for player/position of greatest value to the team.
"Truth be known, Sumlin said Garrett is one of the last guys on the A&M roster who needed a reminder about avoiding an attitude of entitlement."
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This sucks!
There's an article out there. Maybe there's a relationship between the strength coach and pec injuries. Sometimes when the weight is simply too much for the body.
This sucks!
There's an article out there. Maybe there's a relationship between the strength coach and pec injuries. Sometimes when the weight is simply too much for the body.
You bring up a good point MadDog. It's not so much the weight being too heavy as it is the type of strength training being performed.
Back in 1996, I got promoted to start up a Corporate Fitness facility at Xerox in St Pete on the other side of the causeway bridge connecting to Tampa. Long story short, I volunteered 2 mornings per week with the Tampa Bay Bucs in 1997 and 1998 in their off-season strength training program.
In 1997 the Head Strength and Conditioning Coach did up a strength training clinic for the local area. The guest speaker was Kenny Mannie PhD in Ex Phys, who was the Strength Training coach for Nick Saban at Michigan State. It began with a slide show of brutal injuries during weight lifting activities. Inevitably the question was asked what do all these people have in common besides the injuries shared. One person answered those are Olympic Lifts which was correct. An athletic trainer in attendance piggybacked - "it looks like they are all Olympic Athletes based on their uniforms." BINGO! And what do Olympic Athletes share? They are all considered the best in their country competing to be the best in the world at the Olympic Lifts. In spite of some of the best techniques, talent and coaching - many of the best in the world could not prevent brutal injuries during the ballistic movements.
This kicked off the presentation to local high school/college coaches, athletic trainers and fitness personnel about the importance of healthy strength training vrs high risk ballistic movements. If those kinds of injuries can happen to guys with ideal technique and coaching - what do you think can happen when there isn't ideal coaching of techniques down into the high schools and up to college/pro football programs? A trend of injuries to athletes before they even get on the field.
This was a really interesting clinic because at the time of it - a lot of strength training programs throughout the country began moving to the ballistic Olympic Lifts thinking the ability to mimic various sports movements had an absolute carry over to the field. Of course, Kenny Mannie shared his interesting theory of disapproval on that. Cliff Notes Clavin here will sum it up as Kenny saying Functionalists are full of shit. Kenny said when you describe someone as "going ballistic" you're meaning they are out of control. He said a Functionalist will describe his his lifts as explosive while a Realist describes those as ballistic.
Head Strength and Conditioning Coach - Mark Asanovich, who was the 1st Coach Tony Dungy hired in Tampa, went on to say his job is to help pro football players gain better fitness, flexibility and performance while keeping them healthy. His job is also to remain cognizant that all of that also requires rest and recuperation for optimal gains (especially as the football season and contact gets underway). If you're doing power cleans or hang cleans, you're putting a tremendous amount of wear and tear on your joints, muscles and tendons. Mark said if he got any starters injured in the weight room - he wouldn't just be answering to the Head Coach but the Owner who invested in the athlete he just shelved. I can't remember where and when I heard this but Charles Haley allegedly injured one or two of his lower back discs doing ballistic lifts in the weight room. It may not have ended at the time of the injury per say; but the physic of the sport Charles played probably weren't very helpful to the healing process.
That was way back in BC (Before Cellphones); so I couldn't tell you with any validity how many NFL teams are using ballistic Olympic Lifts in their program today. I know Cleveland's current Strength Program uses some; while I'm hoping there's enough experience to do it as safely as possible. The history in MadDog's link is somewhat of a concern but let's hope the coach it speaks about has learned from mistakes like all of us have to do at 1 time or another.
My take on Desmond Bryant is he hasn't been the same force he was before he had the surgery on his heart valve a few years ago. While I hate losing a starter before they even put the pads on - nobody on our 3-13 defense was irreplaceable. The 1 thing I did like D Bryant was they kicked him inside from time to time where he would even line up on the Nose here and there in addition to playing the 5 technique. That said, he wasn't striking me as a "best football ahead" kind of guy. I agree with the guys in here saying this is an ideal opportunity for others to step up. Nobody knew/predicted Tom Brady was an upgrade to Drew Bledsoe until a lacerated kidney allowed people to witness such a thing. When we lost Courtney Brown to IR we gained a Pro Bowl edge rush from Jamir Miller.
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Opportunity... smoportunity...
Should force us more to 4-3 looks since we are now one starter thinner with 3-4 DEs...
But then there is always the waiver wire...
Or just add Myles Garrett next year since we will likely be in position to actually keep our high 1st rounder for player/position of greatest value to the team.
"Truth be known, Sumlin said Garrett is one of the last guys on the A&M roster who needed a reminder about avoiding an attitude of entitlement."
Or just add Myles Garrett next year since we will likely be in position to actually keep our high 1st rounder for player/position of greatest value to the team.
Great idea! Wait a year for an undersized 3-4 DE!
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"Primary duty" is not the same as "in best position to do so".
Also take note of the physical make-up of 4-3 vs. 3-4 DEs, Gip. By and large they are different breeds.
"Primary duty" is not the same as "in best position to do so".
Also take note of the physical make-up of 4-3 vs. 3-4 DEs, Gip. By and large they are different breeds.
For example, when J.J. Watt played in a 3-4 D in college - he played a lot of 2 gap 5 techniques unselfishly helping teammates/LBers make the tackles and plays he was probably more capable of making himself. He had 4.5 sacks in 2009 and 7 sacks in 2010 at Wisconsin, which isn't nearly as football sexy as making him the focal point of a pass rush off the edge.
Interestingly enough, when Watt was coming out in the draft - it was mentioned he would be a better fit for a 3-4 than a 4-3. As fate would have it, Watt was drafted by a team that was using a 3-4 prior to his arrival. Once DC Wade Phillips realized what he had in conjunction with some injuries to his LBer Corps, he switched to a 4 man front for something like 78-88% of the snaps. It went well enough to show Houston J.J. was far from limited to just 1 type of front in a 5 technique playing 2 gap exclusively. They're back to a 34 defense but there's no handcuffs on J.J. You're never going to know what's possible if you set premature boundaries and limitations on a player like J.J. That goes for any of the young front 7 guys we have here today.
I've NEVER liked the way our 3-4 defenses rushed the passer dating all the way back to our good teams in the 80s. And since we got our team back, the only pro bowl pass rush off the edge we've seen here came from Jamir Miller when he replaced Courtney Brown in a 4 man front.
Watching 5 techniques play 2 gap football here is a bore to a snore. The first time Horton came here he wanted to use hybrid fronts so I'm guessing if we can keep our dline somewhat healthy in the aftermath of D. Bryant's injury - maybe we can get some freakin respite from the 5 technique for a little sic em, sock em and sack em.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
"Primary duty" is not the same as "in best position to do so".
Also take note of the physical make-up of 4-3 vs. 3-4 DEs, Gip. By and large they are different breeds.
For example, when J.J. Watt played in a 3-4 D in college - he played a lot of 2 gap 5 techniques unselfishly helping teammates/LBers make the tackles and plays he was probably more capable of making himself. He had 4.5 sacks in 2009 and 7 sacks in 2010 at Wisconsin, which isn't nearly as football sexy as making him the focal point of a pass rush off the edge.
Interestingly enough, when Watt was coming out in the draft - it was mentioned he would be a better fit for a 3-4 than a 4-3. As fate would have it, Watt was drafted by a team that was using a 3-4 prior to his arrival. Once DC Wade Phillips realized what he had in conjunction with some injuries to his LBer Corps, he switched to a 4 man front for something like 78-88% of the snaps. It went well enough to show Houston J.J. was far from limited to just 1 type of front in a 5 technique playing 2 gap exclusively. They're back to a 34 defense but there's no handcuffs on J.J. You're never going to know what's possible if you set premature boundaries and limitations on a player like J.J. That goes for any of the young front 7 guys we have here today.
I've NEVER liked the way our 3-4 defenses rushed the passer dating all the way back to our good teams in the 80s. And since we got our team back, the only pro bowl pass rush off the edge we've seen here came from Jamir Miller when he replaced Courtney Brown in a 4 man front.
Watching 5 techniques play 2 gap football here is a bore to a snore. The first time Horton came here he wanted to use hybrid fronts so I'm guessing if we can keep our dline somewhat healthy in the aftermath of D. Bryant's injury - maybe we can get some freakin respite from the 5 technique for a little sic em, sock em and sack em.
I've NEVER liked the way our 3-4 defenses rushed the passer dating all the way back to our good teams in the 80s. the only pro bowl pass rush off the edge we've seen here came from Jamir Miller when he replaced Courtney Brown in a 4 man front.
Watching 5 techniques play 2 gap football here is a bore to a snore. The first time Horton came here he wanted to use hybrid fronts so I'm guessing if we can keep our dline somewhat healthy in the aftermath of D. Bryant's injury - maybe we can get some freakin respite from the 5 technique for a little sic em, sock em and sack em.
At least someone else has the gonads to say it..Well Done Flug!! Email was sent to Horton i hope
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I've NEVER liked the way our 3-4 defenses rushed the passer dating all the way back to our good teams in the 80s. the only pro bowl pass rush off the edge we've seen here came from Jamir Miller when he replaced Courtney Brown in a 4 man front.
Watching 5 techniques play 2 gap football here is a bore to a snore. The first time Horton came here he wanted to use hybrid fronts so I'm guessing if we can keep our dline somewhat healthy in the aftermath of D. Bryant's injury - maybe we can get some freakin respite from the 5 technique for a little sic em, sock em and sack em.
At least someone else has the gonads to say it..Well Done Flug!! Email was sent to Horton i hope
At least someone else has the gonads to say it..Well Done Flug!! Email was sent to Horton i hope
Thanks Gumby! I think Horton wants to vary the fronts but the first time he came here he took on the talent load of a 4 win team with injuries compounding what he could and couldn't do. It was like he was given a gridiron chess table without all the chess pieces for the alignments and strategies he wanted to pull off.
The last thing we need to be worrying about coming off 3 wins is losing defensive linemen before training camp starts in the weight room. But, when we only won 3 games with yesterday's talent ranking with anchors - who in that front 7 was irreplaceable?
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Clearly no one on our line was/is irreplaceable.....and considering we've only added one rookie to the line(ie: a project) and lost 2 out of 3 of our starters, Im not seeing how this line could be as good, let alone better, than last years line(which was terrible)......so, if Cooper, Hughes and company could not start ahead of these 2 last season, why would they be an improvement this season????
Hate to say it, but teams are gonna continue to run right through this group like swiss cheese.....and their QB's will have all day Sunday and part of Monday to throw the ball.....
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Or just add Myles Garrett next year since we will likely be in position to actually keep our high 1st rounder for player/position of greatest value to the team.
Great idea! Wait a year for an undersized 3-4 DE!
Great idea! Wait a year for an undersized 3-4 DE!
Actually I was referring to this part of your post, "Should force us more to 4-3 looks since we are now one starter thinner with 3-4 DEs..."
He would be the one worth making the change to 4-3 permanent. Opportunity!
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Clearly no one on our line was/is irreplaceable.....and considering we've only added one rookie to the line(ie: a project) and lost 2 out of 3 of our starters, Im not seeing how this line could be as good, let alone better, than last years line(which was terrible)......so, if Cooper, Hughes and company could not start ahead of these 2 last season, why would they be an improvement this season????
Hate to say it, but teams are gonna continue to run right through this group like swiss cheese.....and their QB's will have all day Sunday and part of Monday to throw the ball.....
Clearly no one on our line was/is irreplaceable.....and considering we've only added one rookie to the line(ie: a project) and lost 2 out of 3 of our starters, Im not seeing how this line could be as good, let alone better, than last years line(which was terrible)......so, if Cooper, Hughes and company could not start ahead of these 2 last season, why would they be an improvement this season????
Hate to say it, but teams are gonna continue to run right through this group like swiss cheese.....and their QB's will have all day Sunday and part of Monday to throw the ball.....
I hope not Mud.
Cooper was a rookie so there was a reluctance to start that ahead of our highest paid veteran (D. Bryant) who was well liked by the DC. Orchard didn't start at his OLB position; but once he got a chance to get more reps later on in our train-wreck - he closed the season pretty well IMO. I don't think Cooper and Orchard on a limited rep count was a case of they sucked or there's no chance at upside ahead. It was more of a perception of who was ready to play faster both mentally and physically.
If memory serves me right, John Hughes played NT in college at Cincy because he was good at 2 gap football there. I don't know if he ever had the foot speed to play DE. In fact, we also also auditioned guys like Phil Taylor and Ahtyba Rubin out at DE as recently as 2013 or 2014 (both guys that played DT/NT inside in college d/t to a lack of footspeed to play DE). I think we'd appreciate Hughes' 2 gap ability/integrity better inside where his boundary is far smaller than all the way to the sidelines.
Jamie Meder seemed like a pleasant surprise to me when he got reps while Randy Starks was here for his experience and hopes of bringing leadership which he failed at.
Horton was fond of hybrid fronts when he arrived here the first time. I think injuries up front limited how many down linemen he went with as well as taking guys out of their comfort zones to play in unfamiliar spaces. If we can be more fortunate with injuries - I could see us having some luck with 4 man fronts. That means our guys on the edge don't have to waste time pondering do I rush or drop challenging their explosion out of snap and playing fast immediately there after. Inside, Hughes can play more effective with 2 gap in a smaller space while teaming with Shelton or Meder.
As I said a couple posts ago, I'm not a big fan of our marriage to the 5 techniques over the years. I'd at least like to see it less frequently. I think we have the personnel to hurry a passer more easily out of a 4 man front than we would out of a 3 man fronts we've gagged on. I don't want our rookie edge rushers to feel like the comedian's puppy named Stay. Paralysis from over-analysis vrs sic em? I gots to go with sic em.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!"
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