First Round Busts
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By borderl As far as that game, I recall that there was a major referee bad call that gave the Steeler's that game. Had instant replay been in effect it likely would have gone the other way.
Bingo....Larry Anderson fumbled the OT kickoff, Browns recovered on the 23 yd line...but wait, the "whistle blew."
I'm still not over it.
Bingo....Larry Anderson fumbled the OT kickoff, Browns recovered on the 23 yd line...but wait, the "whistle blew."
I'm still not over it.
The game was heading to sudden death. For the Browns, it was a chance to finally exorcise some demons despite blowing the lead.
For Cleveland, the loss came in the most agonizing way possible: an egregious miscall.
Returning the opening kickoff of the extra session, Larry Anderson fumbled for the second time, and the Browns appeared to recover. Fans watched in stunned disbelief as the orange helmets pointed toward the opposing end zone, indicating a key turnover.
However, the officials ruled that their whistles had blown prior to the fumble, and the stadium erupted in glee.
Across television monitors throughout the Steel City and along the shores of Lake Erie, it was entirely apparent that Anderson fumbled. In that day, prior to instant replay, it didn't matter. The Steelers maintained possession.
(And Steeler fans wonder why fans of other teams feel that the refs always seem to do something to favor them. They think we are deluded. We are not. It really does happen that way.)
For some reason the youtube site that accompanied the above statement says that "the video has been terminated due to multiple third party infringement.
Yea....it is probably been infringed by others who have tried to put together a litany of video's where the Steeler constantly got help from the refs.
The following year, in Pittsburgh, it happened again. The Browns were leading by 10 points midway through the 4th quarter....and this happened:
The Steelers response drive saw a throw to Franco Harris in the flats cause more fans' hearts to hit their throats. Harris, who caught nine receptions to lead all receivers in the game, appeared to possibly fumble along the sideline. The officials incorrectly ruled that he was down by contact and the ball only dislodged because of the ground.
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Do as you're told.Re: being right.
I am.
One Post From the Truth said:
Do as you're told.
As I tell myself, yes.
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I'd put Haden, Mack & Metcalf in the borderline group. Haden and Mack haven't reached their career end and have peaks, valleys & injuries. Metcalf was a kick returner taken with the 13th pick. I like Metcalf but you gotta be an every down or three down guy in the top 20.
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I'd put Haden, Mack & Metcalf in the borderline group. Haden and Mack haven't reached their career end and have peaks, valleys & injuries. Metcalf was a kick returner taken with the 13th pick. I like Metcalf but you gotta be an every down or three down guy in the top 20.
I'd put Haden, Mack & Metcalf in the borderline group. Haden and Mack haven't reached their career end and have peaks, valleys & injuries. Metcalf was a kick returner taken with the 13th pick. I like Metcalf but you gotta be an every down or three down guy in the top 20.
Let's see if any single person in here agrees with you. I don't.
Though, I will say, that as an offensive weapon, Metcalf was often misused by Bill Belichick. Instead of getting him out in space where he could do his magic, BB would too often just send him up the middle.
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I'd put Haden, Mack & Metcalf in the borderline group. Haden and Mack haven't reached their career end and have peaks, valleys & injuries. Metcalf was a kick returner taken with the 13th pick. I like Metcalf but you gotta be an every down or three down guy in the top 20.
Let's see if any single person in here agrees with you. I don't.
Though, I will say, that as an offensive weapon, Metcalf was often misused by Bill Belichick. Instead of getting him out in space where he could do his magic, BB would too often just send him up the middle.
Let's see if any single person in here agrees with you. I don't.
Though, I will say, that as an offensive weapon, Metcalf was often misused by Bill Belichick. Instead of getting him out in space where he could do his magic, BB would too often just send him up the middle.
Many in here believe Pryor is a Pro Bowl WR this season, not the best measuring stick. I guess 8,000 yards is pretty solid over a 13 year career and he probably was a bit underutilized. Yeah I'm probably off on that one.
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Here is the breakdown for The Bengals since 1966:
Too Soon to Tell:
Cedric Ogbuehi
Darquez Dennard
Tyler Eifert...though he seems on the way to a plus grade
Busts:
Mike Cobb
Akili Smith
David Pollack
David Verser
Glen Collins
Chris Perry
Greg Cook
David Klingler
Pete Koch
Kijana Carter
Jack Thompson
Reinard Wilson
Rickey Dixon
Emanuel King
Billy Brooks
Ricky Hunley
Jason Buck
Keith Rivers
Borderline players:
Jermain Gresham
Charles Alexander
Peter Warrick
Brian Blados
Bill Kollar
Wilson Whitley
Mike Reid
Archie Griffin
Andre Smith
Dave Rimington
John Copeland
Joe Kelly
Brian Simmons
Tim McGee
James Francis
Ross Browner
Levi Jones
Glen Cameron
Alfred Williams
Leon Hall
Vern Holland
Plus players:
Kevin Zeitler
AJ Green
Sherman White
Darryl Williams
Jonathan Joseph
Eddie Edwards
Eddie Brown
Bob Johnson
Dan Wilkinson
Blair Bush
Isaac Curtis
Takeo Spikes
Willie Anderson
Justin Smith
Carson Palmer
Anthony Munoz
The Bengals breakdown is as follows:
Too soon: 5%
Busts: 30.5%
Borderline: 35.5%
Plus players: 27.1%
It seems more Bengals were more middle of the road rather than bust or hits.
Here is the breakdown for The Bengals since 1966:
Too Soon to Tell:
Cedric Ogbuehi
Darquez Dennard
Tyler Eifert...though he seems on the way to a plus grade
Busts:
Mike Cobb
Akili Smith
David Pollack
David Verser
Glen Collins
Chris Perry
Greg Cook
David Klingler
Pete Koch
Kijana Carter
Jack Thompson
Reinard Wilson
Rickey Dixon
Emanuel King
Billy Brooks
Ricky Hunley
Jason Buck
Keith Rivers
Borderline players:
Jermain Gresham
Charles Alexander
Peter Warrick
Brian Blados
Bill Kollar
Wilson Whitley
Mike Reid
Archie Griffin
Andre Smith
Dave Rimington
John Copeland
Joe Kelly
Brian Simmons
Tim McGee
James Francis
Ross Browner
Levi Jones
Glen Cameron
Alfred Williams
Leon Hall
Vern Holland
Plus players:
Kevin Zeitler
AJ Green
Sherman White
Darryl Williams
Jonathan Joseph
Eddie Edwards
Eddie Brown
Bob Johnson
Dan Wilkinson
Blair Bush
Isaac Curtis
Takeo Spikes
Willie Anderson
Justin Smith
Carson Palmer
Anthony Munoz
The Bengals breakdown is as follows:
Too soon: 5%
Busts: 30.5%
Borderline: 35.5%
Plus players: 27.1%
It seems more Bengals were more middle of the road rather than bust or hits.
IMO, several borderline players should be listed in the plus player category. They include Mike Reid, John Copeland, Brian Simmons, Tim McGee, James Francis, Alfred Williams and Leon Hall. Greg Cook was a casualty of injury. Cook was the best in the game at his position. Bill Walsh thought he was destined to win a few Super Bowls. He was that good.
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Here is the breakdown for The Bengals since 1966:
Too Soon to Tell:
Cedric Ogbuehi
Darquez Dennard
Tyler Eifert...though he seems on the way to a plus grade
Busts:
Mike Cobb
Akili Smith
David Pollack
David Verser
Glen Collins
Chris Perry
Greg Cook
David Klingler
Pete Koch
Kijana Carter
Jack Thompson
Reinard Wilson
Rickey Dixon
Emanuel King
Billy Brooks
Ricky Hunley
Jason Buck
Keith Rivers
Borderline players:
Jermain Gresham
Charles Alexander
Peter Warrick
Brian Blados
Bill Kollar
Wilson Whitley
Mike Reid
Archie Griffin
Andre Smith
Dave Rimington
John Copeland
Joe Kelly
Brian Simmons
Tim McGee
James Francis
Ross Browner
Levi Jones
Glen Cameron
Alfred Williams
Leon Hall
Vern Holland
Plus players:
Kevin Zeitler
AJ Green
Sherman White
Darryl Williams
Jonathan Joseph
Eddie Edwards
Eddie Brown
Bob Johnson
Dan Wilkinson
Blair Bush
Isaac Curtis
Takeo Spikes
Willie Anderson
Justin Smith
Carson Palmer
Anthony Munoz
The Bengals breakdown is as follows:
Too soon: 5%
Busts: 30.5%
Borderline: 35.5%
Plus players: 27.1%
It seems more Bengals were more middle of the road rather than bust or hits.
IMO, several borderline players should be listed in the plus player category. They include Mike Reid, John Copeland, Brian Simmons, Tim McGee, James Francis, Alfred Williams and Leon Hall. Greg Cook was a casualty of injury. Cook was the best in the game at his position. Bill Walsh thought he was destined to win a few Super Bowls. He was that good.
77Bengal said:
IMO, several borderline players should be listed in the plus player category. They include Mike Reid, John Copeland, Brian Simmons, Tim McGee, James Francis, Alfred Williams and Leon Hall. Greg Cook was a casualty of injury. Cook was the best in the game at his position. Bill Walsh thought he was destined to win a few Super Bowls. He was that good.
I don't think so....as for an overall career the guys you mention either didn't last long or didn't produce up to their draft position. They stay in the middle of the road category. And yes, a short career can lead to an "average" ranking. The one guy I thought about was Reid.....I know he was a good player, but he was only in the league 5-6 years. And, yes, an injury can cause someone to be a bust. As with Cook the same can be said for Kijana Carter. Unfortunate, yes, but they still get the bust grade as they just didn't have much of a career.
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Mike Reid was excellent. 2 time All-Pro, 4 time all-AFC, retired to become a singer.
If you get five years from a guy and he excels at the top of the league for four of them, he's a plus.
Zombo
Zombo said:
Mike Reid was excellent. 2 time All-Pro, 4 time all-AFC, retired to become a singer.
If you get five years from a guy and he excels at the top of the league for four of them, he's a plus.
Zombo
I would want 8-10 years out of a guy like that to be a plus. (and he quit to play piano, not sing).
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Zombo said:
Mike Reid was excellent. 2 time All-Pro, 4 time all-AFC, retired to become a singer.
If you get five years from a guy and he excels at the top of the league for four of them, he's a plus.
Zombo
I would want 8-10 years out of a guy like that to be a plus. (and he quit to play piano, not sing).
I would want 8-10 years out of a guy like that to be a plus. (and he quit to play piano, not sing).
Any system that has Mike Phipps and Mike Reid in the same category is flawed. One was a very good player for their team, one was a very bad player for their team. Reid was a two-time All Pro, considered the best of the best at his position. Mike Phipps threw 40 TDs to 81 INts in his time in Cleveland and consistently was ranked as one of the worst at his position.
Mike Reid left to become a full-time musician and songwriter, he does indeed sing:
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OK, but I would be willing to drop Phipps down to bust....and put Reid on borderline plus vs. borderline bust. I probably should have had better categories like:
Plus
Solid
Borderline
Bust.
And Reid probably should have stuck to the piano. I mean, he is not totally unfortunate as a singer....but he won't cause anyone to forget Freddy Mercury.
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"bend but don't break Gipper"
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One Post From the Truth said:
"bend but don't break Gipper"
Good leaders are alway flexible. George Washington had that reputation, as did Abe LIncoln, and Teddy Roosevelt. As do I. Hell, they should just put me up on Mt. Rushmore.
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One Post From the Truth said:
"bend but don't break Gipper"
Good leaders are alway flexible. George Washington had that reputation, as did Abe LIncoln, and Teddy Roosevelt. As do I. Hell, they should just put me up on Mt. Rushmore.
Mt Rushmore humm...Good leaders are alway flexible. George Washington had that reputation, as did Abe LIncoln, and Teddy Roosevelt. As do I. Hell, they should just put me up on Mt. Rushmore.
Gipper, I do believe that's way after your time. You should stick to hyroglifics.
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77Bengal said:
IMO, several borderline players should be listed in the plus player category. They include Mike Reid, John Copeland, Brian Simmons, Tim McGee, James Francis, Alfred Williams and Leon Hall. Greg Cook was a casualty of injury. Cook was the best in the game at his position. Bill Walsh thought he was destined to win a few Super Bowls. He was that good.
I don't think so....as for an overall career the guys you mention either didn't last long or didn't produce up to their draft position. They stay in the middle of the road category. And yes, a short career can lead to an "average" ranking. The one guy I thought about was Reid.....I know he was a good player, but he was only in the league 5-6 years. And, yes, an injury can cause someone to be a bust. As with Cook the same can be said for Kijana Carter. Unfortunate, yes, but they still get the bust grade as they just didn't have much of a career.
I don't think so....as for an overall career the guys you mention either didn't last long or didn't produce up to their draft position. They stay in the middle of the road category. And yes, a short career can lead to an "average" ranking. The one guy I thought about was Reid.....I know he was a good player, but he was only in the league 5-6 years. And, yes, an injury can cause someone to be a bust. As with Cook the same can be said for Kijana Carter. Unfortunate, yes, but they still get the bust grade as they just didn't have much of a career.
Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
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I don't think so....as for an overall career the guys you mention either didn't last long or didn't produce up to their draft position. They stay in the middle of the road category. And yes, a short career can lead to an "average" ranking. The one guy I thought about was Reid.....I know he was a good player, but he was only in the league 5-6 years. And, yes, an injury can cause someone to be a bust. As with Cook the same can be said for Kijana Carter. Unfortunate, yes, but they still get the bust grade as they just didn't have much of a career.
Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
I am not buying that at all....and, again, borderline doesn't mean borderline bust.
Leon Hall has played for 9 years...and has not made a single Pro Bowl. I think you have to make some Pro Bowls to be considered a plus player.
Joe Haden has only played 6 years and made several Pro Bowls.
Joe is a Pro Bowl player, Hall is not.
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
I would have to do more research on them....or actually, you need to produce evidence of your opinion before I revise my ranking.
But clearly you guys are freaked out over semantics with the term borderline. Like I said, I probably needed to break this down into the 4 categories that I had put above, instead of the original just 3 categories.
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Let's see if any single person in here agrees with you. I don't.
Though, I will say, that as an offensive weapon, Metcalf was often misused by Bill Belichick. Instead of getting him out in space where he could do his magic, BB would too often just send him up the middle.
Many in here believe Pryor is a Pro Bowl WR this season, not the best measuring stick. I guess 8,000 yards is pretty solid over a 13 year career and he probably was a bit underutilized. Yeah I'm probably off on that one.
Many in here believe Pryor is a Pro Bowl WR this season, not the best measuring stick. I guess 8,000 yards is pretty solid over a 13 year career and he probably was a bit underutilized. Yeah I'm probably off on that one.
Eric Metcalf's 2 punt returns to beat the Steelers in that one game makes him a plus player in the minds of the Browns....no matter what else he did in his career. Fair to say?
After watching that again, you can tell how happy Chris Collinsworth was to have that happen.
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Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
I am not buying that at all....and, again, borderline doesn't mean borderline bust.
Leon Hall has played for 9 years...and has not made a single Pro Bowl. I think you have to make some Pro Bowls to be considered a plus player.
Joe Haden has only played 6 years and made several Pro Bowls.
Joe is a Pro Bowl player, Hall is not.
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
I would have to do more research on them....or actually, you need to produce evidence of your opinion before I revise my ranking.
But clearly you guys are freaked out over semantics with the term borderline. Like I said, I probably needed to break this down into the 4 categories that I had put above, instead of the original just 3 categories.
Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
I am not buying that at all....and, again, borderline doesn't mean borderline bust.
Leon Hall has played for 9 years...and has not made a single Pro Bowl. I think you have to make some Pro Bowls to be considered a plus player.
Joe Haden has only played 6 years and made several Pro Bowls.
Joe is a Pro Bowl player, Hall is not.
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
I would have to do more research on them....or actually, you need to produce evidence of your opinion before I revise my ranking.
But clearly you guys are freaked out over semantics with the term borderline. Like I said, I probably needed to break this down into the 4 categories that I had put above, instead of the original just 3 categories.
Not that PFF is the be all end all, but I'll take their word over evaluating players based on how many pro bowls they made.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/five-years-of-pff-grades-top-10-cornerbacks/
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Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
I am not buying that at all....and, again, borderline doesn't mean borderline bust.
Leon Hall has played for 9 years...and has not made a single Pro Bowl. I think you have to make some Pro Bowls to be considered a plus player.
Joe Haden has only played 6 years and made several Pro Bowls.
Joe is a Pro Bowl player, Hall is not.
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
I would have to do more research on them....or actually, you need to produce evidence of your opinion before I revise my ranking.
But clearly you guys are freaked out over semantics with the term borderline. Like I said, I probably needed to break this down into the 4 categories that I had put above, instead of the original just 3 categories.
Not that PFF is the be all end all, but I'll take their word over evaluating players based on how many pro bowls they made.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/five-years-of-pff-grades-top-10-cornerbacks/
Not that PFF is the be all end all, but I'll take their word over evaluating players based on how many pro bowls they made.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/five-years-of-pff-grades-top-10-cornerbacks/
Well, I will take my own judgment. And the judgment of NFL players, coaches etc. who vote on the Pro Bowl.
There is no point in time that I would ever agree to trade Joe Haden for Leon Hall in their prime.. And another ranking system: PFR would tend to agree with my view.
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I don't think so....as for an overall career the guys you mention either didn't last long or didn't produce up to their draft position. They stay in the middle of the road category. And yes, a short career can lead to an "average" ranking. The one guy I thought about was Reid.....I know he was a good player, but he was only in the league 5-6 years. And, yes, an injury can cause someone to be a bust. As with Cook the same can be said for Kijana Carter. Unfortunate, yes, but they still get the bust grade as they just didn't have much of a career.
Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
Levi Jones might make it to a "solid player", not a Plus player. Never in 9 years made the Pro Bowl. His CA is about average for a tackle. Make him a "solid"...not a plus
The same for Simmons. No Pro Bowls. Jones had a better annual average CA. His running mate Takeo Spikes is more what I had in mind for a plus player.
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