First Round Busts

77Bunghole

@the-gipper said:

Here is the breakdown for The Bengals since 1966:

Too Soon to Tell:

Cedric Ogbuehi

Darquez Dennard

Tyler Eifert...though he seems on the way to a plus grade

Busts:

Mike Cobb

Akili Smith

David Pollack

David Verser

Glen Collins

Chris Perry

Greg Cook

David Klingler

Pete Koch

Kijana Carter

Jack Thompson

Reinard Wilson

Rickey Dixon

Emanuel King

Billy Brooks

Ricky Hunley

Jason Buck

Keith Rivers

Borderline players:

Jermain Gresham

Charles Alexander

Peter Warrick

Brian Blados

Bill Kollar

Wilson Whitley

Mike Reid

Archie Griffin

Andre Smith

Dave Rimington

John Copeland

Joe Kelly

Brian Simmons

Tim McGee

James Francis

Ross Browner

Levi Jones

Glen Cameron

Alfred Williams

Leon Hall

Vern Holland

Plus players:

Kevin Zeitler

AJ Green

Sherman White

Darryl Williams

Jonathan Joseph

Eddie Edwards

Eddie Brown

Bob Johnson

Dan Wilkinson

Blair Bush

Isaac Curtis

Takeo Spikes

Willie Anderson

Justin Smith

Carson Palmer

Anthony Munoz

The Bengals breakdown is as follows:

Too soon: 5%

Busts: 30.5%

Borderline: 35.5%

Plus players: 27.1%

It seems more Bengals were more middle of the road rather than bust or hits.

IMO, several borderline players should be listed in the plus player category. They include Mike Reid, John Copeland, Brian Simmons, Tim McGee, James Francis, Alfred Williams and Leon Hall. Greg Cook was a casualty of injury. Cook was the best in the game at his position. Bill Walsh thought he was destined to win a few Super Bowls. He was that good.

The Gipper

77Bengal said:

IMO, several borderline players should be listed in the plus player category. They include Mike Reid, John Copeland, Brian Simmons, Tim McGee, James Francis, Alfred Williams and Leon Hall. Greg Cook was a casualty of injury. Cook was the best in the game at his position. Bill Walsh thought he was destined to win a few Super Bowls. He was that good.

I don't think so....as for an overall career the guys you mention either didn't last long or didn't produce up to their draft position. They stay in the middle of the road category. And yes, a short career can lead to an "average" ranking. The one guy I thought about was Reid.....I know he was a good player, but he was only in the league 5-6 years. And, yes, an injury can cause someone to be a bust. As with Cook the same can be said for Kijana Carter. Unfortunate, yes, but they still get the bust grade as they just didn't have much of a career.

Zombo

Mike Reid was excellent. 2 time All-Pro, 4 time all-AFC, retired to become a singer.

If you get five years from a guy and he excels at the top of the league for four of them, he's a plus.

Zombo

The Gipper

Zombo said:

Mike Reid was excellent. 2 time All-Pro, 4 time all-AFC, retired to become a singer.

If you get five years from a guy and he excels at the top of the league for four of them, he's a plus.

Zombo

I would want 8-10 years out of a guy like that to be a plus. (and he quit to play piano, not sing).

Zombo

@the-gipper said:
I would want 8-10 years out of a guy like that to be a plus. (and he quit to play piano, not sing).

Any system that has Mike Phipps and Mike Reid in the same category is flawed. One was a very good player for their team, one was a very bad player for their team. Reid was a two-time All Pro, considered the best of the best at his position. Mike Phipps threw 40 TDs to 81 INts in his time in Cleveland and consistently was ranked as one of the worst at his position.

Mike Reid left to become a full-time musician and songwriter, he does indeed sing:

The Gipper

OK, but I would be willing to drop Phipps down to bust....and put Reid on borderline plus vs. borderline bust. I probably should have had better categories like:

Plus

Solid

Borderline

Bust.

And Reid probably should have stuck to the piano. I mean, he is not totally unfortunate as a singer....but he won't cause anyone to forget Freddy Mercury.

One Post

"bend but don't break Gipper"

The Gipper

One Post From the Truth said:
"bend but don't break Gipper"

Good leaders are alway flexible. George Washington had that reputation, as did Abe LIncoln, and Teddy Roosevelt. As do I. Hell, they should just put me up on Mt. Rushmore.

One Post

@the-gipper said:
Good leaders are alway flexible. George Washington had that reputation, as did Abe LIncoln, and Teddy Roosevelt. As do I. Hell, they should just put me up on Mt. Rushmore.

Mt Rushmore humm...

Gipper, I do believe that's way after your time. You should stick to hyroglifics.

jdawg1

@the-gipper said:
I don't think so....as for an overall career the guys you mention either didn't last long or didn't produce up to their draft position. They stay in the middle of the road category. And yes, a short career can lead to an "average" ranking. The one guy I thought about was Reid.....I know he was a good player, but he was only in the league 5-6 years. And, yes, an injury can cause someone to be a bust. As with Cook the same can be said for Kijana Carter. Unfortunate, yes, but they still get the bust grade as they just didn't have much of a career.

Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."

Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.

The Gipper

@jdawg1 said:

Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."

I am not buying that at all....and, again, borderline doesn't mean borderline bust.

Leon Hall has played for 9 years...and has not made a single Pro Bowl. I think you have to make some Pro Bowls to be considered a plus player.

Joe Haden has only played 6 years and made several Pro Bowls.

Joe is a Pro Bowl player, Hall is not.

Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.

I would have to do more research on them....or actually, you need to produce evidence of your opinion before I revise my ranking.

But clearly you guys are freaked out over semantics with the term borderline. Like I said, I probably needed to break this down into the 4 categories that I had put above, instead of the original just 3 categories.

The Gipper

@baconhound said:

Many in here believe Pryor is a Pro Bowl WR this season, not the best measuring stick. I guess 8,000 yards is pretty solid over a 13 year career and he probably was a bit underutilized. Yeah I'm probably off on that one.

Eric Metcalf's 2 punt returns to beat the Steelers in that one game makes him a plus player in the minds of the Browns....no matter what else he did in his career. Fair to say?

After watching that again, you can tell how happy Chris Collinsworth was to have that happen.

jdawg1

@the-gipper said:

@jdawg1 said:

Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."

I am not buying that at all....and, again, borderline doesn't mean borderline bust.

Leon Hall has played for 9 years...and has not made a single Pro Bowl. I think you have to make some Pro Bowls to be considered a plus player.

Joe Haden has only played 6 years and made several Pro Bowls.

Joe is a Pro Bowl player, Hall is not.

Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.

I would have to do more research on them....or actually, you need to produce evidence of your opinion before I revise my ranking.

But clearly you guys are freaked out over semantics with the term borderline. Like I said, I probably needed to break this down into the 4 categories that I had put above, instead of the original just 3 categories.

Not that PFF is the be all end all, but I'll take their word over evaluating players based on how many pro bowls they made.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/five-years-of-pff-grades-top-10-cornerbacks/

The Gipper

@jdawg1 said:

Not that PFF is the be all end all, but I'll take their word over evaluating players based on how many pro bowls they made.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/five-years-of-pff-grades-top-10-cornerbacks/

Well, I will take my own judgment. And the judgment of NFL players, coaches etc. who vote on the Pro Bowl.

There is no point in time that I would ever agree to trade Joe Haden for Leon Hall in their prime.. And another ranking system: PFR would tend to agree with my view.

The Gipper

@jdawg1 said:

Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."

Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.

Levi Jones might make it to a "solid player", not a Plus player. Never in 9 years made the Pro Bowl. His CA is about average for a tackle. Make him a "solid"...not a plus

The same for Simmons. No Pro Bowls. Jones had a better annual average CA. His running mate Takeo Spikes is more what I had in mind for a plus player.

jdawg1

The pro bowl is really about the worst way to evaluate players. It's not really worth discussing if you are sold on this idea that only players that make pro bowls are good. Vince Young made 2 pro bowls, was he a plus player? Joey Galloway never made the pro bowl. Fred Taylor never made a pro bowl. Marques Colston never made a pro bowl. All great players.

Haden was good early in his career but hasn't been good since 2013. Hall has always been good even if he hasn't made pro bowls.

Zombo

I think we can officially cross Mingo into the bust side.

No contract next year and playing in the 4th Q of 2nd preseason game ... Done.

Z

Canton Dawg

Justin Gilbert has just officially crossed into "bust" territory last night in my opinion.

There are several posters on this board that placed his shortcomings on the previous coaching staff.

This guy can't tackle, or cover a receiver and there's no way in hell Hue and company will be able to "coach him up".

I also agree with Zombo, it's time to part ways with Mingo.

Canton Mike

@canton-dawg said:

Justin Gilbert has just officially crossed into "bust" territory last night in my opinion.

There are several posters on this board that placed his shortcomings on the previous coaching staff.

This guy can't tackle, or cover a receiver and there's no way in hell Hue and company will be able to "coach him up".

I also agree with Zombo, it's time to part ways with Mingo.

I wonder WHY Gilbert even attempts to play...he shows the energy & passion of a "slug". Neither he nor Mingo show any instincts.

Mike

Canton Dawg

@canton-mike said:

I wonder WHY Gilbert even attempts to play...he shows the energy & passion of a "slug". Neither he nor Mingo show any instincts.

Mike

Absolutely Mike, Gilbert & Mingo are certainly athletic freaks and have the tools to be elite.

For some unknown reason (lack of football talent?) they just show no signs of potential.