I HATE RAY HORTON
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Watching the Cards and Seahawks get to 3-3 OT game because of defenses makes me sick when I think of today's game against Cincy.
Wow, 6-6 tie in OT. Guess I should have watched. Time to drag out the history books for the last time (if ever) a 5 quarter OT game ever went without a TD being scored.
Wow, 6-6 tie in OT. Guess I should have watched. Time to drag out the history books for the last time (if ever) a 5 quarter OT game ever went without a TD being scored.
Oh you missed a heck of an ending. BOTH kickers missed old time XP distance FG's to get the win. Never thought that was possible in the NFL.
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agreed, but my point was more about vet presence, not that anyone we've had on the roster in the past how many years has been top ten talent except the 2 joes.
we have no top 10 talent (except the joes, when healthy.....and they're both on the back end of their careers) on this roster. maybe kessler's #'s will disprove that. pryor and crowell are going to get shut down considering the Ds will key on them and i'm not at all suggesting they are top 10 even without that distinction.
for years now i've heard the old " we have so many holes to fill." "we have to draft a foundation for this team then build up." blah blah blah blah blah. ok, so these different FOs have been drafting foundation for the last decade but we still draft foundation every year?
GTFO.
agreed, but my point was more about vet presence, not that anyone we've had on the roster in the past how many years has been top ten talent except the 2 joes.
we have no top 10 talent (except the joes, when healthy.....and they're both on the back end of their careers) on this roster. maybe kessler's #'s will disprove that. pryor and crowell are going to get shut down considering the Ds will key on them and i'm not at all suggesting they are top 10 even without that distinction.
for years now i've heard the old " we have so many holes to fill." "we have to draft a foundation for this team then build up." blah blah blah blah blah. ok, so these different FOs have been drafting foundation for the last decade but we still draft foundation every year?
GTFO.
I agree, and I think so does this front office. Where you're annoyed is that they cut Whitner, Kruger and Dansby - three aging, underperforming veterans on big money - and didn't resign Benjamin, Gipson or Schwartz.
They *should* have resigned Schwartz and Gipson, and keeping Benji would have been nice but he's replaceable.
Mack doesn't count - he wanted out for years and nothing we could have done would have stopped him, like Phil Dawson.
So the new group of veterans in, say, 2018 (it's all headed to being great in 2018 btw) we'll have on our team should be people like Davis (FA), Kirksey, Bitonio, Shelton, Campbell, Crowell/Duke, all will be in their fourth or fifth year, plus the existing guys like Thomas, Haden and maybe Hawkins.
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agreed, but my point was more about vet presence, not that anyone we've had on the roster in the past how many years has been top ten talent except the 2 joes.
we have no top 10 talent (except the joes, when healthy.....and they're both on the back end of their careers) on this roster. maybe kessler's #'s will disprove that. pryor and crowell are going to get shut down considering the Ds will key on them and i'm not at all suggesting they are top 10 even without that distinction.
for years now i've heard the old " we have so many holes to fill." "we have to draft a foundation for this team then build up." blah blah blah blah blah. ok, so these different FOs have been drafting foundation for the last decade but we still draft foundation every year?
GTFO.
I agree, and I think so does this front office. Where you're annoyed is that they cut Whitner, Kruger and Dansby - three aging, underperforming veterans on big money - and didn't resign Benjamin, Gipson or Schwartz.
They *should* have resigned Schwartz and Gipson, and keeping Benji would have been nice but he's replaceable.
Mack doesn't count - he wanted out for years and nothing we could have done would have stopped him, like Phil Dawson.
So the new group of veterans in, say, 2018 (it's all headed to being great in 2018 btw) we'll have on our team should be people like Davis (FA), Kirksey, Bitonio, Shelton, Campbell, Crowell/Duke, all will be in their fourth or fifth year, plus the existing guys like Thomas, Haden and maybe Hawkins.
If they stay and don't move on.I agree, and I think so does this front office. Where you're annoyed is that they cut Whitner, Kruger and Dansby - three aging, underperforming veterans on big money - and didn't resign Benjamin, Gipson or Schwartz.
They *should* have resigned Schwartz and Gipson, and keeping Benji would have been nice but he's replaceable.
Mack doesn't count - he wanted out for years and nothing we could have done would have stopped him, like Phil Dawson.
So the new group of veterans in, say, 2018 (it's all headed to being great in 2018 btw) we'll have on our team should be people like Davis (FA), Kirksey, Bitonio, Shelton, Campbell, Crowell/Duke, all will be in their fourth or fifth year, plus the existing guys like Thomas, Haden and maybe Hawkins.
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Get the deals done as soon as possible. Like with Pryor, he wants to be in Cleveland, playing with Hue Jackson - the guy who gave him a chance in three separate places. Get him signed for a long term, team friendly as possible deal, and do it now. Good news is, they're in talks already. Same with Bitonio, he's eligible for a new deal from next offseason I think (maybe one after that), and Kirksey.
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At least Pryor you can call a vet now even though he is playing a new position. They are in talks with him and I hope he stays. This week can prove to be interesting as far as any trades made. Local media at times has Romo here, haden in Carolina...but they're just speculation. Does the fo value draft picks more than good vets? My biggest concern still lies with a baseball doing a football job. Football guys couldn't either so who knows? But that one worries me
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Podesta was a football guy before he was a baseball guy, FWIW. He's also not in charge of things remotely, he's just there to look at the things the football guys take for granted and see what could be improved on by an outsider. They do plenty of things differently in different sports, and sometimes it's better and can be transferred, sometimes it's not.
As for the vets/picks thing, they value vets who perform at the level expected of them and couldn't easily be replaced by guys on the roster. That's why Hawkins, Haden and Thomas were kept, while Whitner (Campbell) and Benjamin (wanted too big a contract, Pryor) etc were not.
And Romo? No go. No way in hell I see this FO, at 0-7, trading for a big contract, 36 year old who last played 16 games in 2012.
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I had about the same reaction as you when I heard the Romo thing. So goes local talk radio.
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agreed, but my point was more about vet presence, not that anyone we've had on the roster in the past how many years has been top ten talent except the 2 joes.
we have no top 10 talent (except the joes, when healthy.....and they're both on the back end of their careers) on this roster. maybe kessler's #'s will disprove that. pryor and crowell are going to get shut down considering the Ds will key on them and i'm not at all suggesting they are top 10 even without that distinction.
for years now i've heard the old " we have so many holes to fill." "we have to draft a foundation for this team then build up." blah blah blah blah blah. ok, so these different FOs have been drafting foundation for the last decade but we still draft foundation every year?
GTFO.
I agree, and I think so does this front office. Where you're annoyed is that they cut Whitner, Kruger and Dansby - three aging, underperforming veterans on big money - and didn't resign Benjamin, Gipson or Schwartz.
They *should* have resigned Schwartz and Gipson, and keeping Benji would have been nice but he's replaceable.
Mack doesn't count - he wanted out for years and nothing we could have done would have stopped him, like Phil Dawson.
So the new group of veterans in, say, 2018 (it's all headed to being great in 2018 btw) we'll have on our team should be people like Davis (FA), Kirksey, Bitonio, Shelton, Campbell, Crowell/Duke, all will be in their fourth or fifth year, plus the existing guys like Thomas, Haden and maybe Hawkins.
So the new group of veterans in, say, 2018 (it's all headed to being great in 2018 btw) we'll have on our team should be people like Davis (FA), Kirksey, Bitonio, Shelton, Campbell, Crowell/Duke, all will be in their fourth or fifth year, plus the existing guys like Thomas, Haden and maybe Hawkins.most coaches and FOs go in thinking at least 3 yrs. to turn it around....... hmmmm.
in 1999 the turnaround would have occurred in 2002 (well at least that's what chris palmer thought).
2004 turnaround (davis thought).
2007 (robiskie thought).
crennel thought he could turn it around by 2008.
in 2009 mangini thought he could do it by twenty twelve.
2014 (for shurmur)
it would have been this year for chud.
next year for pettine.
and you're saying hue and this FO is going to make this team GREAT by 2018?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
they were coaches with a plan. you are a fan just like me. man i give you props for your optimism but c'mon. and half those guys on that list prob won't even be here. haden might have to retire due to injury issues and thomas will either be trade, ask to be traded or just say fuck it and retire himself.
you are funny man.
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Did I say they'd be given that much time? I said that's their plan, nothing more, nothing less.
Sure, I'm optimistic because what's the alternative? It's piss easy to sit here each week and say "man, the browns suck, fire everyone, I bet we lose again on sunday, hue jackson's a loser, ray horton's a jackass, jimmy haslam is a worthless douche who needs to sell the team to the next worthless douche who can fire the loser and the jackass and bring in a new loser and a new jackass I can hail as the saviours and then call for the heads of six months later" but where's the fun in that?
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i haven't said that either. it's really hasn't been about the coaching in any of these regime's if you ask me. it's about the FO and the drafting. when to deal a pick for more picks. when to move up or down. who to target as playmakers and studs. that's what's been lacking in all of this. the tiresome draft a foundation and have crap talent across the board has to stop.
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Just to add, the current IR list:
Joel Bitonio
RG3
Rannell Hall
Nile Lawrence-Stample
Patrick Murray
Rajion Neal
Nate Orchard
Dennis Parks
Jordan Poyer
Austin Reiter
Glenn Winston
Dylan Winn
Current injured but still on roster list:
Joe Haden
Corey Coleman
Josh McCown
Seth Devalve
Marcus Burley
Finally, Desmond Bryant is on the NFI list for the year.
So by my count that's 8 players who have started a game for us this year, that have been missing for large portions of the season, plus Bryant who would be a starter. I know all teams get injuries but that's half a team, basically. In particular, in Haden, Bitonio, Coleman, Bryant, Orchard, McCown/RG3 and Poyer (and if you're feeling generous throw Reiter in as well) would be key players for this team. Add in guys who have missed games and come back - Erving, Nassib for example - and you get a team that's been decimated by injuries and is now relying on low round rookies and scrubs to step up in their place.
Haden -> Body Calhoun
Bitonio -> Bailey
Coleman -> Louis
Bryant -> Meder
Orchard -> Schobert
McCown/RG3 -> Kessler/Hogan
Poyer -> Howard
You're telling me there's not a huge drop off in talent level from the guy on the left to the guy on the right? Maybe not everyone we're missing is an all-pro, but plenty are key contributors for this team with talent much greater than the guy coming in.
Just to add, the current IR list:
Joel Bitonio
RG3
Rannell Hall
Nile Lawrence-Stample
Patrick Murray
Rajion Neal
Nate Orchard
Dennis Parks
Jordan Poyer
Austin Reiter
Glenn Winston
Dylan Winn
Current injured but still on roster list:
Joe Haden
Corey Coleman
Josh McCown
Seth Devalve
Marcus Burley
Finally, Desmond Bryant is on the NFI list for the year.
So by my count that's 8 players who have started a game for us this year, that have been missing for large portions of the season, plus Bryant who would be a starter. I know all teams get injuries but that's half a team, basically. In particular, in Haden, Bitonio, Coleman, Bryant, Orchard, McCown/RG3 and Poyer (and if you're feeling generous throw Reiter in as well) would be key players for this team. Add in guys who have missed games and come back - Erving, Nassib for example - and you get a team that's been decimated by injuries and is now relying on low round rookies and scrubs to step up in their place.
Haden -> Body Calhoun
Bitonio -> Bailey
Coleman -> Louis
Bryant -> Meder
Orchard -> Schobert
McCown/RG3 -> Kessler/Hogan
Poyer -> Howard
You're telling me there's not a huge drop off in talent level from the guy on the left to the guy on the right? Maybe not everyone we're missing is an all-pro, but plenty are key contributors for this team with talent much greater than the guy coming in.
Great post... Worthy of violating my own policy of editing down quoted posts.
We don't have the playmakers because we traded them away for numbers. We need those blue chip guys. They are the exceptions in the draft though. Why does one guy suck here, then go somewhere else and play well? Motivation? Game planning his specific skills? Luck? One team plugs in a second rounder and does well and another team takes a high first for bust. It would seem to me that HS and College coaches are supposed to be teachers first. At the pro level it's about being a chess master and motivation guru. Sam was a quiet motivation expert, Cowhere was a more firey type but getting your team ready and motivated to win is huge.
Motivator? Sure. Chessmaster? Meh... optional. I could not disagree more with the rest of your "analysis".
The way the college game has gone it is ever more imperative that Pro position coaches can teach. With the reduced practice limitations negotiated with the NFLPA, the emphasis on teaching is redoubled.
As for playmakers... Despite all of us having players we liked passed over for duds, the problem has not been who we passed on; the problem has been that who we took did nothing to make us forget who we passed on.
Who sucked here then went on to be great elsewhere? As far as I can see, there are a few ex-browns around the league doing well - TJ Ward, Jabaal Sheard, Alex Mack and Mitchell Schwartz (shout out to Tom Heckert btw) - but they were all good players in Cleveland first. Letting them go was the mistake (shout out to Ray Farmer), sure, but it's not like we're seeing greg little, or donte whitner, or paul kruger, or brandon weeden, or basically anyone that sucked in cleveland going on to do great things elsewhere.
Maybe there's someone I'm forgetting, but it's not like there's a trend.
Another one... Well done.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Just to add, the current IR list:
Joel Bitonio
RG3
Rannell Hall
Nile Lawrence-Stample
Patrick Murray
Rajion Neal
Nate Orchard
Dennis Parks
Jordan Poyer
Austin Reiter
Glenn Winston
Dylan Winn
Current injured but still on roster list:
Joe Haden
Corey Coleman
Josh McCown
Seth Devalve
Marcus Burley
Finally, Desmond Bryant is on the NFI list for the year.
So by my count that's 8 players who have started a game for us this year, that have been missing for large portions of the season, plus Bryant who would be a starter. I know all teams get injuries but that's half a team, basically. In particular, in Haden, Bitonio, Coleman, Bryant, Orchard, McCown/RG3 and Poyer (and if you're feeling generous throw Reiter in as well) would be key players for this team. Add in guys who have missed games and come back - Erving, Nassib for example - and you get a team that's been decimated by injuries and is now relying on low round rookies and scrubs to step up in their place.
Haden -> Body Calhoun
Bitonio -> Bailey
Coleman -> Louis
Bryant -> Meder
Orchard -> Schobert
McCown/RG3 -> Kessler/Hogan
Poyer -> Howard
You're telling me there's not a huge drop off in talent level from the guy on the left to the guy on the right? Maybe not everyone we're missing is an all-pro, but plenty are key contributors for this team with talent much greater than the guy coming in.
Great post... Worthy of violating my own policy of editing down quoted posts.
We don't have the playmakers because we traded them away for numbers. We need those blue chip guys. They are the exceptions in the draft though. Why does one guy suck here, then go somewhere else and play well? Motivation? Game planning his specific skills? Luck? One team plugs in a second rounder and does well and another team takes a high first for bust. It would seem to me that HS and College coaches are supposed to be teachers first. At the pro level it's about being a chess master and motivation guru. Sam was a quiet motivation expert, Cowhere was a more firey type but getting your team ready and motivated to win is huge.
Motivator? Sure. Chessmaster? Meh... optional. I could not disagree more with the rest of your "analysis".
The way the college game has gone it is ever more imperative that Pro position coaches can teach. With the reduced practice limitations negotiated with the NFLPA, the emphasis on teaching is redoubled.
As for playmakers... Despite all of us having players we liked passed over for duds, the problem has not been who we passed on; the problem has been that who we took did nothing to make us forget who we passed on.
Who sucked here then went on to be great elsewhere? As far as I can see, there are a few ex-browns around the league doing well - TJ Ward, Jabaal Sheard, Alex Mack and Mitchell Schwartz (shout out to Tom Heckert btw) - but they were all good players in Cleveland first. Letting them go was the mistake (shout out to Ray Farmer), sure, but it's not like we're seeing greg little, or donte whitner, or paul kruger, or brandon weeden, or basically anyone that sucked in cleveland going on to do great things elsewhere.
Maybe there's someone I'm forgetting, but it's not like there's a trend.
Another one... Well done.
Great post... Worthy of violating my own policy of editing down quoted posts.
Another one... Well done.
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Honestly, I don't know enough about the technical side of football to say whether or not the defensive struggles of our team are due to Horton or the lack of talent. One thing I DO know, we don't have anywhere NEAR the talent on defense to compete. Could another DC get a little more out of our players? I don't know, maybe. But just look at our secondary, man (if you can). Jamar Taylor gave up a PERFECT PASSER RATING of 158 on all targets, and gave up two touchdowns, and like 180 yards. Dalton was like 8-8 for 180 yards throwing at Jamar. That's stupid.
We need talent, and we need it now. This is why Cody Kessler IS SO IMPORTANT to our team. If he's the guy, we don't need to spend one of those high value picks on a QB. And to be honest, the ONLY QB I actually want from this draft is Mitch Tribisky, and I'm not so sure you could take him #1 anyways. I want Cody to be our guy, but he has to find a way to stay healthy. That flip pass to Gary was incredible, and set up the lead-taking TD, but at what expense? Could he have thrown it away? Is there ANYTHING Cody can do to improve his availability? To stay healthy? Can he LEARN this before it's too late?
I can't believe our defense is so bad. That first drive of the game by Cincy was just awful. Go back and watch it again. Did they even SEE a 3rd down? I mean, this is getting ridiculous. We've given up opening drive touchdowns in 5-7 games. I've never seen that before. I'm not talking about throwing some field goals in there, I'm talking about giving up TOUCHDOWNS. Is it just a lack of talent, or are teams identifying what Ray Horton wants to do early in the game?
Myles Garrett is going to be a rich man, and I don't feel sorry for a man that will earn millions of dollars to play a game, but in a way....I do feel a LITTLE sorry for him if the Browns are the top pick. I will tell you right now, do NOT be surprised to see Myles Garrett refuse to play for the Browns. Wouldn't surprise me at all.
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agreed, but my point was more about vet presence, not that anyone we've had on the roster in the past how many years has been top ten talent except the 2 joes.
we have no top 10 talent (except the joes, when healthy.....and they're both on the back end of their careers) on this roster. maybe kessler's #'s will disprove that. pryor and crowell are going to get shut down considering the Ds will key on them and i'm not at all suggesting they are top 10 even without that distinction.
for years now i've heard the old " we have so many holes to fill." "we have to draft a foundation for this team then build up." blah blah blah blah blah. ok, so these different FOs have been drafting foundation for the last decade but we still draft foundation every year?
GTFO.
I agree, and I think so does this front office. Where you're annoyed is that they cut Whitner, Kruger and Dansby - three aging, underperforming veterans on big money - and didn't resign Benjamin, Gipson or Schwartz.
They *should* have resigned Schwartz and Gipson, and keeping Benji would have been nice but he's replaceable.
Mack doesn't count - he wanted out for years and nothing we could have done would have stopped him, like Phil Dawson.
So the new group of veterans in, say, 2018 (it's all headed to being great in 2018 btw) we'll have on our team should be people like Davis (FA), Kirksey, Bitonio, Shelton, Campbell, Crowell/Duke, all will be in their fourth or fifth year, plus the existing guys like Thomas, Haden and maybe Hawkins.
You do know what is going to happen once all those player finish their 4th year?I agree, and I think so does this front office. Where you're annoyed is that they cut Whitner, Kruger and Dansby - three aging, underperforming veterans on big money - and didn't resign Benjamin, Gipson or Schwartz.
They *should* have resigned Schwartz and Gipson, and keeping Benji would have been nice but he's replaceable.
Mack doesn't count - he wanted out for years and nothing we could have done would have stopped him, like Phil Dawson.
So the new group of veterans in, say, 2018 (it's all headed to being great in 2018 btw) we'll have on our team should be people like Davis (FA), Kirksey, Bitonio, Shelton, Campbell, Crowell/Duke, all will be in their fourth or fifth year, plus the existing guys like Thomas, Haden and maybe Hawkins.
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i haven't said that either. it's really hasn't been about the coaching in any of these regime's if you ask me. it's about the FO and the drafting. when to deal a pick for more picks. when to move up or down. who to target as playmakers and studs. that's what's been lacking in all of this. the tiresome draft a foundation and have crap talent across the board has to stop.
Amen brother!it's really hasn't been about the coaching in any of these regime's if you ask me. it's about the FO and the drafting.
I watched Mitch play HS ball, and thought he was something special then.And to be honest, the ONLY QB I actually want from this draft is Mitch Tribisky, and I'm not so sure you could take him #1 anyways.
There's not many NEO public high school teams that can beat St Eds and St Ignatius in the same season, but Mitch did it.
I know I'm biased, but I would love to see the Browns draft him.
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Amen brother!it's really hasn't been about the coaching in any of these regime's if you ask me. it's about the FO and the drafting.
I watched Mitch play HS ball, and thought he was something special then.And to be honest, the ONLY QB I actually want from this draft is Mitch Tribisky, and I'm not so sure you could take him #1 anyways.
There's not many NEO public high school teams that can beat St Eds and St Ignatius in the same season, but Mitch did it.
I know I'm biased, but I would love to see the Browns draft him.
Amen brother!
I watched Mitch play HS ball, and thought he was something special then.
There's not many NEO public high school teams that can beat St Eds and St Ignatius in the same season, but Mitch did it.
I know I'm biased, but I would love to see the Browns draft him.
Brian Hoyer II?
"You planning on having a long relationship with that glass or are you going to drink it? Drink up, man. Maybe we can get another.” - Janis Joplin, 1970. -
Screw Jim Oneil all his fault we can't pressure the QB
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Amen brother!
I watched Mitch play HS ball, and thought he was something special then.
There's not many NEO public high school teams that can beat St Eds and St Ignatius in the same season, but Mitch did it.
I know I'm biased, but I would love to see the Browns draft him.
Brian Hoyer II?
Too early to tell.Brian Hoyer II?
Mitch is currently being projected as a top 10 draft pick, whereas Hoyer went undrafted.
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