what we really need here again is a stud offensive tackle or a new cornerback
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How well did Mitch Schwartz pass protect his first couple years ..... Before he became so widely adored - there was a time a lot of our fans weren't willing to be fair to him or the situation around him at all. ...... And here we go again.
There was a time THIS year when Crow averaged over 6 yards a carry for a stretch of about 4 games.
I found myself defending Schwartz......a lot. But I dont see him and Pazstor as the same.......like CD said below, Paztor has been around the block a few times and came into the league the SAME year as Schwartz did.....yet we're supposed to give him additional years to develop?.....beyond the 4 he's already put in?
Schwartz stepped in, as a rookie, and never looked back......(never missed a single game or snap from the day he was picked)
and.....there was another time(2014) that Crow averaged 6+ ypc for the first 5 games......seems like a trend....
I think Shon Coleman wasn't fully recovered from cancer. I would expect him to be healthier and contribute next year.
I think Shon Coleman wasnt recovered from knee surgery.....
Another brilliant pick.....cancer and a bum knee.....
I don't see the reason for comparing Schwartz with Pasztor other than they are both play RT.
We drafted Mitch, and without surprise there is a learning curve when it comes to playing in the NFL so that was expected.
Austin is on his 3rd NFL team since 2012, so he's hardly a rookie...and he might be a few things but "great" isn't one of them.
Yep.....I dont see the comparison either.......
And, if you're gonna compare, then Mitch has already crushed him.....hands down
Good memory. Do you know what happened to Cooper? Once upon a time, and prior to injury, he was was the 2nd highest rated Center in the NFL draft.
Guard......he's a guard......(always has been)
If it was my team, it would be tough to take pass rushers in the 1stvwhen the ol is soooooo fucking bad
That is what FA is for.........any reason we cant sign a journeyman or 2 whilst the kids develop?
That is what FA is for.........any reason we cant sign a journeyman or 2 whilst the kids develop?
You know, i know he didnt pan out in indy cause they tried to convert him to OLB'er, but werner is unsigned right now. And he's stated he wants back to his college DE days. He had one year where as an olb'er he was in the upper tier of run stoppers in the nfl. If he's going back up in weight whete he was a golem in the run lanes at Fl St, we should bring him to camp. He still is probably the quickest off thevline in all the nfl.
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I found myself defending Schwartz......a lot. But I dont see him and Pazstor as the same.......like CD said below, Paztor has been around the block a few times and came into the league the SAME year as Schwartz did.....yet we're supposed to give him additional years to develop?.....beyond the 4 he's already put in?
I wouldn't have defended Schwartz a lot if I didn't like him so let's keep this in mind as we delve into this further. As for emergence timelines with olinemen, they vary. For example, John Greco's career in St Louis with only 4 fill-in starts in his first 2-3 years plus his first year in Cleveland with zero starts before he finally settled into a comfort zone with the best football of his career in 2014 is an example right here on this franchise. The patience invested in him turned out okay. My first impression of Pasztor here as an OG in 2015 was a pleasant surprise and he's playing a different position in 2016.- Flugel
Schwartz stepped in, as a rookie, and never looked back......(never missed a single game or snap from the day he was picked)
He was drafted in round 2 in 2012 and played his best football in 2014 when it was the same type of zbs scheme he did well enough at Cal in to be seen as a second round pick by Cleveland. I'm not surprised he enjoyed the comfort zone that made him a 2nd round pick. Should I be? Having said that, Greco's improvement and best niche as a RG marked the first time we could actually run inside of Schwartz with any degree of consistency to make his positives visible.
Our problem today besides a key injury to Bitonio on a team coming off 3-18 football over our last 21 games? Inside compensations for inexperience at LG and for a Center in over his head that Farmer drafted who's getting an audition before he's parked for good. You want to tell me without our hindsight 20/20 that if Erving never got a shot before he was permanently parked on Ray Farmer's Island of Misfit Toys that people wouldn't bitching about he never got a chance to play as a first round pick? We want to trade up for early round impact but keep in mind Farmer whiffing on 3 of his 4 first round picks has not helped today's situation at all. He deserves as much credit for this as our new front office is getting because the 2 guys Oakland took (Carr and Mack) in places we could have drafted them are enjoying first place this year. Once is an elite pass rusher and the other is this QB position we're looking to fill all the time. When we draft Newsome and Matthews in the first round of 78, they went on to compete in the playoffs a lot in the 80s. Game changers found - fans could cheer. - Flugel
and.....there was another time(2014) that Crow averaged 6+ ypc for the first 5 games......seems like a trend....
He averaged 5.4 yards a carry in his first 5 games so at 1 stretch in 2016 the trend was bettered. - Flugel
I think Shon Coleman wasnt recovered from knee surgery.....
Another brilliant pick.....cancer and a bum knee.....
He was cancer free enough to play at Auburn and enter the draft. Didn't you want us drafting a LBer with a bum knee from ND even earlier? - Flugel
Yep.....I dont see the comparison either.......
There wasn't one made so that's good. - Flugel
And, if you're gonna compare, then Mitch has already crushed him.....hands down
I was a big fan of Schwartz so you don't have to talk to me like you're the only one that appreciated what he did here. Again, I only said the last 2 RTs we had received a lot of unfair premature conclusions. I was pointing out a similarity - not a difference right? And what's with crediting me for announcing Pasztor is better than Schwartz? Who said Pasztor is better than Schwartz anywhere in this conversation? And if you can't stand him being here - who brought him here in the first place? The last regime right? While we're at it - do you really think 3-18 football in the last 21 regular season games in Cleveland played less of a part in why both Mack and Schwartz wanted out of here than th next group of strangers hoping to change it? We made Mack the highest paid Center and he went on IR by week 6 or 7. He wanted to go to Jax even before he became the highest paid Center. How many games did we win in 2012? 2013? and 2015? And you think they're only disappointed in the new group that signed up to fix all this? This shit probably goes all the way back to 99 where countless regimes refused to look where we've been to understand where they needed to go and what needed to change. For starters, whiffing on multiple first round picks for a franchise needing game changers, TDs and/or hurrying up passers is a killer. - Flugel
Guard......he's a guard......(always has been)
As for Cooper, I buy 3 draft guides every year regardless of what is written online. Each one said several teams were also eyeing him as a Center prospect. In the past, we've had guys that could play OG or Center such as Jim Pyne, Shaun O'Hara and most recently John Greco so it's not nearly as far fetched as you want it to sound. We also have a guy who looked to be best suited to play OG playing RT so it's very common for olinemen to play different spots on the oline. Ryan Tucker was a better RG than he was a RT for us just like Kevin Shaffer was a better Rt than LT here while Chicago made him a backup OG.
- Flugel
That is what FA is for.........any reason we cant sign a journeyman or 2 whilst the kids develop?
Isn't that what Pasztor was supposed to be? Same with Alvin Bailey? That's 2 guys already here filling that role. We also signed a practice squad Center from Washington that is only a rookie so it's somewhat equivalent to signing a homeless vet. On defense, Corey Lemonier and Stephen Paea? - Flugel
I found myself defending Schwartz......a lot. But I dont see him and Pazstor as the same.......like CD said below, Paztor has been around the block a few times and came into the league the SAME year as Schwartz did.....yet we're supposed to give him additional years to develop?.....beyond the 4 he's already put in?
I wouldn't have defended Schwartz a lot if I didn't like him so let's keep this in mind as we delve into this further. As for emergence timelines with olinemen, they vary. For example, John Greco's career in St Louis with only 4 fill-in starts in his first 2-3 years plus his first year in Cleveland with zero starts before he finally settled into a comfort zone with the best football of his career in 2014 is an example right here on this franchise. The patience invested in him turned out okay. My first impression of Pasztor here as an OG in 2015 was a pleasant surprise and he's playing a different position in 2016.- Flugel
Im willing to give Pazstor his opportunity....dont think he's terible....just dont think he'll be all that good either.....well see///
Schwartz stepped in, as a rookie, and never looked back......(never missed a single game or snap from the day he was picked)
He was drafted in round 2 in 2012 and played his best football in 2014 when it was the same type of zbs scheme he did well enough at Cal in to be seen as a second round pick by Cleveland. I'm not surprised he enjoyed the comfort zone that made him a 2nd round pick. Should I be? Having said that, Greco's improvement and best niche as a RG marked the first time we could actually run inside of Schwartz with any degree of consistency to make his positives visible.
Our problem today besides a key injury to Bitonio on a team coming off 3-18 football over our last 21 games? Inside compensations for inexperience at LG and for a Center in over his head that Farmer drafted who's getting an audition before he's parked for good. You want to tell me without our hindsight 20/20 that if Erving never got a shot before he was permanently parked on Ray Farmer's Island of Misfit Toys that people wouldn't bitching about he never got a chance to play as a first round pick? We want to trade up for early round impact but keep in mind Farmer whiffing on 3 of his 4 first round picks has not helped today's situation at all. - Flugel
Nope....nor the Gm's ahead of him, ftm.....looked back and can see from 2010-11-12-13....draft years that should be the back bone of this team, we have only one player left...Haden......if you add 2014....it's 3 players....add Bito - Kirksey......
So....thats 5 drafts......38 selections.....and only 3 players to show for it......
Im sure well see more than 3 emerge from the 2015 & 2016 classes....and soon to be 2017
...
and.....there was another time(2014) that Crow averaged 6+ ypc for the first 5 games......seems like a trend....
He averaged 5.4 yards a carry in his first 5 games so at 1 stretch in 2016 the trend was bettered. - Flugel
I think Shon Coleman wasnt recovered from knee surgery.....
Another brilliant pick.....cancer and a bum knee.....
He was cancer free enough to play at Auburn and enter the draft. Didn't you want us drafting a LBer with a bum knee from ND even earlier? - Flugel
Nope...gave up that dream the second I witnessed the injury......it was a linebacker from UCLA, with a bum knee, that I wanted...
Yep.....I dont see the comparison either.......
There wasn't one made so that's good. - Flugel
And, if you're gonna compare, then Mitch has already crushed him.....hands down
I was a big fan of Schwartz so you don't have to talk to me like you're the only one that appreciated what he did here.
I wasnt....I was actually commiserating with you as one of the few who defended him....
Again, I only said the last 2 RTs we had received a lot of unfair premature conclusions. I was pointing out a similarity - not a difference right? And what's with crediting me for announcing Pasztor is better than Schwartz? Who said Pasztor is better than Schwartz anywhere in this conversation?
I credited you with announcing nothing Flugel......have no idea where you get this....touchy?
And if you can't stand him being here - who brought him here in the first place? The last regime right?
I have zero clue what youre even talking about???
While we're at it - do you really think 3-18 football in the last 21 regular season games in Cleveland played less of a part in why both Mack and Schwartz wanted out of here than th next group of strangers hoping to change it? We made Mack the highest paid Center and he went on IR by week 6 or 7. He wanted to go to Jax even before he became the highest paid Center. How many games did we win in 2012? 2013? and 2015? And you think they're only disappointed in the new group that signed up to fix all this? This shit probably goes all the way back to 99 where countless regimes refused to look where we've been to understand where they needed to go and what needed to change. For starters, whiffing on multiple first round picks for a franchise needing game changers, TDs and/or hurrying up passers is a killer. - Flugel
Again.....wtf are you talking about....?....
Guard......he's a guard......(always has been)
As for Cooper, I buy 3 draft guides every year regardless of what is written online. Each one said several teams were also eyeing him as a Center prospect. In the past, we've had guys that could play OG or Center such as Jim Pyne, Shaun O'Hara and most recently John Greco so it's not nearly as far fetched as you want it to sound. We also have a guy who looked to be best suited to play OG playing RT so it's very common for olinemen to play different spots on the oline. Ryan Tucker was a better RG than he was a RT for us just like Kevin Shaffer was a better Rt than LT here while Chicago made him a backup OG.
- Flugel
Ok......he's always been a guard, but could be a center?.....whatever
That is what FA is for.........any reason we cant sign a journeyman or 2 whilst the kids develop?
Isn't that what Pasztor was supposed to be? Same with Alvin Bailey? That's 2 guys already here filling that role. We also signed a practice squad Center from Washington that is only a rookie so it's somewhat equivalent to signing a homeless vet. On defense, Corey Lemonier and Stephen Paea? - Flugel
To me, a journeyman would be a competent(not great) player who can start.....those guys dont really meet my quality grade for that....with the exception of Pazstor....though I still wouldnt consider him a journeyman pick up....closer to a UDFA score(if he pans out)
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At this point, IMO, first and foremost:
1 - QB
2 - someone to hike it to him and block for him
3 - a couple of big guys that can rush the passer
After that, assorted guys who can tackle, block, catch, run fast and jump high.
The problem is if u dont take #3 in the firstbround whats the point? Why draft 2nd-4th round pass rushetscagain that arebgonna need time to develop. If we dont take garrett or allen than just go into next season hoping nas and og develop and we get a healthy orchard back.
The problem is if u dont take #3 in the firstbround whats the point? Why draft 2nd-4th round pass rushetscagain that arebgonna need time to develop. If we dont take garrett or allen than just go into next season hoping nas and og develop and we get a healthy orchard back.
If you don't draft a QB....then you are looking at Kessler and Griffin at QB.
Personally....I want that QB...you know who. These two can be backups...and RG despite his draft status and rookie year has devolved into a backup, in my opinion. From what I saw in preseason, he ability to read a defense is poor. He can throw the ball long but has questionable touch/accuracy on most of his throws. His release time is probably below average.
RG may get a 3-4 game audition to determine if he still belongs here.....and I am of the opinion that it will be a mediocre audition....if it even lasts more than a few plays before he breaks again.
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I say we get some guys out there we haven't seen very much of like Cooper at Center (zero to lose), Payton (who has to have better hands than Rockhardo Hands-Louis and even Coleman (at this point), Higgins (who was rumored to have really good hands his last 2 years at Color-adoo State). Let's see Hogan start at QB. Looked very similar to Trubisky with the option read runs when he pleasantly surprised me with a lot of rushing yards.
0-16 is 0-16 so there's no sense in slapping a tuxedo or cologne on it. See what you drafted so you can evaluate what you got and what you need to do better.
They should put a sign up at the opponent friendly stadium this has become since 99 - "Welcome to the 1 place where if you're not up to beating the home team - they'll beat themselves for you!"
Louis, IMHO, is Quincy Morgan II.....all speed, no catch. Both Payton & Higgins are said to have excellent hands, so why not play them?
Mike
Louis, IMHO, is Quincy Morgan II.....all speed, no catch. Both Payton & Higgins are said to have excellent hands, so why not play them?
Mike
I don't remember Morgan having that much speed.
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I say we get some guys out there we haven't seen very much of like Cooper at Center (zero to lose), Payton (who has to have better hands than Rockhardo Hands-Louis and even Coleman (at this point), Higgins (who was rumored to have really good hands his last 2 years at Color-adoo State). Let's see Hogan start at QB. Looked very similar to Trubisky with the option read runs when he pleasantly surprised me with a lot of rushing yards.
0-16 is 0-16 so there's no sense in slapping a tuxedo or cologne on it. See what you drafted so you can evaluate what you got and what you need to do better.
They should put a sign up at the opponent friendly stadium this has become since 99 - "Welcome to the 1 place where if you're not up to beating the home team - they'll beat themselves for you!"
Im with ya Fluges......isnt that the point of this whole season.....screw winning so we can see the youngins?.......
And.....IF....that is really the plan......why are we NOT seeing more of Higgins.....Payton......Coleman.....DeValve....Wright....?????
And....a question Ive asked many people....w/o answer......where will we play 14 new rookies?
Which will soon be a thread.....
Im with ya Fluges......isnt that the point of this whole season.....screw winning so we can see the youngins?.......
And.....IF....that is really the plan......why are we NOT seeing more of Higgins.....Payton......Coleman.....DeValve....Wright....?????
And....a question Ive asked many people....w/o answer......where will we play 14 new rookies?
Which will soon be a thread.....
I'm with ya Mud. Why not give the rooks a decent 5 game audition? Because Hue wants to give Jimmuh the illusion we can win a meaningless game? MHO, we know what we have in McClown. If it's all about talent evaluation, time for Hogan's Heroes.
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Im with ya Fluges......isnt that the point of this whole season.....screw winning so we can see the youngins?.......
And.....IF....that is really the plan......why are we NOT seeing more of Higgins.....Payton......Coleman.....DeValve....Wright....?????
And....a question Ive asked many people....w/o answer......where will we play 14 new rookies?
Which will soon be a thread.....
I'm with ya Mud. Why not give the rooks a decent 5 game audition? Because Hue wants to give Jimmuh the illusion we can win a meaningless game? MHO, we know what we have in McClown. If it's all about talent evaluation, time for Hogan's Heroes.
I'm with ya Mud. Why not give the rooks a decent 5 game audition? Because Hue wants to give Jimmuh the illusion we can win a meaningless game? MHO, we know what we have in McClown. If it's all about talent evaluation, time for Hogan's Heroes.
Right...and I understand we cant play everybody.....but, at this point, I honestly dont care "who" gets to play...lets see em....
The real anomalies, to me, are Payton & Higgins....who both got rave reviews thru camp.....but havent played. Gordon never came back, Coleman broke his hand, Pryor had some nagging injuries and Louis performed unimpressively....yet?.......no Higgins or Payton?.....weird....
Id also like to maybe see Scooby get some ST reps....and the team start searching for competent P & K returners.....try out time...
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All very good suggestions, but the underlying problem I see is that of a coach already looking like a deer in the headlights "needing" a win, any win, at the sacrifice of trying out those new players as suggested here. Charlie Strong anyone?
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At this point, IMO, first and foremost:
1 - QB
2 - someone to hike it to him and block for him
3 - a couple of big guys that can rush the passer
After that, assorted guys who can tackle, block, catch, run fast and jump high.
At this point, IMO, first and foremost:
1 - QB
2 - someone to hike it to him and block for him
3 - a couple of big guys that can rush the passer
After that, assorted guys who can tackle, block, catch, run fast and jump high.
The problem is if u dont take #3 in the firstbround whats the point? Why draft 2nd-4th round pass rushetscagain that arebgonna need time to develop. If we dont take garrett or allen than just go into next season hoping nas and og develop and we get a healthy orchard back.
We have 5 picks in the top 65 (65th being top of the 3rd round - 2 first rounders). There's gotta be some guys available that fit our top needs.
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
All very good suggestions, but the underlying problem I see is that of a coach already looking like a deer in the headlights "needing" a win, any win, at the sacrifice of trying out those new players as suggested here. Charlie Strong anyone?
Charlie Strong anyone?
Ummmmm.... no.
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At this point, IMO, first and foremost:
1 - QB
2 - someone to hike it to him and block for him
3 - a couple of big guys that can rush the passer
After that, assorted guys who can tackle, block, catch, run fast and jump high.
The problem is if u dont take #3 in the firstbround whats the point? Why draft 2nd-4th round pass rushetscagain that arebgonna need time to develop. If we dont take garrett or allen than just go into next season hoping nas and og develop and we get a healthy orchard back.
We have 5 picks in the top 65 (65th being top of the 3rd round - 2 first rounders). There's gotta be some guys available that fit our top needs.
We have 5 picks in the top 65 (65th being top of the 3rd round - 2 first rounders). There's gotta be some guys available that fit our top needs.
You betcha there are.....!
Now.....which ones are they, is the real question(and debate)?.......
2 firsts and 2 seconds......the pressure is on this FO not to blow it this time......
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All very good suggestions, but the underlying problem I see is that of a coach already looking like a deer in the headlights "needing" a win, any win, at the sacrifice of trying out those new players as suggested here. Charlie Strong anyone?
Charlie Strong anyone?
Aggies, is this a Texas revenge of the lyrics to "All my ex's live in Texas" ?
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We done this idiot shit in the first round for twenty years it will work now. WHO the fuck needs people who makes tds
We actually have some offensive skill players. Our 2 RBs, and a couple of the WRs and our TE is Pro Bowl caliber.
But...the QB situation sucks.....and all of those skill players can do nothing with out blocking. 8 sacks, 33 rushing yards in a game.
Do you really think it is poor skill players that are responsible for that?
And our defensive backfield is a dumpster fire....but, certainly more critical would be if the Browns could get a pass rush....which they can't seem to get.
We actually have some offensive skill players. Our 2 RBs, and a couple of the WRs and our TE is Pro Bowl caliber.
But...the QB situation sucks.....and all of those skill players can do nothing with out blocking. 8 sacks, 33 rushing yards in a game.
Do you really think it is poor skill players that are responsible for that?
And our defensive backfield is a dumpster fire....but, certainly more critical would be if the Browns could get a pass rush....which they can't seem to get.
This is crazy even for you
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At this point, IMO, first and foremost:
1 - QB
2 - someone to hike it to him and block for him
3 - a couple of big guys that can rush the passer
After that, assorted guys who can tackle, block, catch, run fast and jump high.
The problem is if u dont take #3 in the firstbround whats the point? Why draft 2nd-4th round pass rushetscagain that arebgonna need time to develop. If we dont take garrett or allen than just go into next season hoping nas and og develop and we get a healthy orchard back.
We have 5 picks in the top 65 (65th being top of the 3rd round - 2 first rounders). There's gotta be some guys available that fit our top needs.
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We actually have some offensive skill players. Our 2 RBs, and a couple of the WRs and our TE is Pro Bowl caliber.
But...the QB situation sucks.....and all of those skill players can do nothing with out blocking. 8 sacks, 33 rushing yards in a game.
Do you really think it is poor skill players that are responsible for that?
And our defensive backfield is a dumpster fire....but, certainly more critical would be if the Browns could get a pass rush....which they can't seem to get.
This is crazy even for you
This is crazy even for you
I was referring only to the TE......who made the Pro Bowl just last year. Or did you think I meant all those players? If so, then it is you who is the crazy one.
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This is crazy even for you
I was referring only to the TE......who made the Pro Bowl just last year. Or did you think I meant all those players? If so, then it is you who is the crazy one.
I was referring only to the TE......who made the Pro Bowl just last year. Or did you think I meant all those players? If so, then it is you who is the crazy one.
I know you meant the TE and he's sucked every year but one in a 9 year career. Not even as good as Pro Bowler Jordan Cameron.
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well....in Gips defense......if you make the Pro-Bowl, then you are Pro-Bowl caliber.....simple....
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well....in Gips defense......if you make the Pro-Bowl, then you are Pro-Bowl caliber.....simple....
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I was referring only to the TE......who made the Pro Bowl just last year. Or did you think I meant all those players? If so, then it is you who is the crazy one.
I know you meant the TE and he's sucked every year but one in a 9 year career. Not even as good as Pro Bowler Jordan Cameron.
I know you meant the TE and he's sucked every year but one in a 9 year career. Not even as good as Pro Bowler Jordan Cameron.
Jordan who??
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well....in Gips defense......if you make the Pro-Bowl, then you are Pro-Bowl caliber.....simple....
well....in Gips defense......if you make the Pro-Bowl, then you are Pro-Bowl caliber.....simple....
Awesome, Derek Anderson Pro-Bowl caliber QB, too easy Mud
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