Why we need a QB in Top 5
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Wel, this isn't basketball. MT isn't a generational player. So other than that, fine analogy....
Mitchy has one year starting experience. One...1...
I don't know how else to classify this other than blind homerism...Kids got tools, sure. Has he learned to use them enough to pass on a blue chip talent elsewhere. No imo
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Zombo, can this forum be programed so that when someone (Hoorta & Gipper) type in "LeBron James" that it comes up "STFU about LeBron James already"?
just asking.
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Wel, this isn't basketball. MT isn't a generational player. So other than that, fine analogy....
Mitchy has one year starting experience. One...1...
I don't know how else to classify this other than blind homerism...Kids got tools, sure. Has he learned to use them enough to pass on a blue chip talent elsewhere. No imo
Wel, this isn't basketball. MT isn't a generational player. So other than that, fine analogy....
Mitchy has one year starting experience. One...1...
I don't know how else to classify this other than blind homerism...Kids got tools, sure. Has he learned to use them enough to pass on a blue chip talent elsewhere. No imo
You classify it as a person having an instinct about talent. That is what is evident.
And what blue chip talent is out there? I don't see any talent that is any more blue chip than he is.
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Zombo, can this forum be programed so that when someone (Hoorta & Gipper) type in "LeBron James" that it comes up "STFU about LeBron James already"?
just asking.
Zombo, can this forum be programed so that when someone (Hoorta & Gipper) type in "LeBron James" that it comes up "STFU about LeBron James already"?
just asking.
Funny story......my daughter just graduated from college. There was a graduate student who was also receiving a Masters degree whose name was "LeBon James". He clearly was not named after our boy, as he was close to the same age.
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You are a glue head with virtually every one of those statements.
Right....actual facts are not something you have any kind of ability to understand.
The Steelers are one the most talent laden teams in the NFL.
Only if you take those 3-4 players. Otherwise their talent level is pedestrian. If they were so talented besides those guys, ALL that talent would have run over the "Very little talented Browns". Pretty much the opposite happened.
Who's to say the playing for the Browns didn't ruin the QB's?
I say so.....anyone who has seen them play says so. You think they were all so good? Why don't you go ahead an bench BR in favor of Brandon Weeden or Colt McCoy or Derek Anderson or Johnny Manziel or any of those guys. You think they are so good...but I venture you would not went them as the starting QB of your team.
There is VERY little talent on the Browns, AT ANY POSITION,
And yet, without fuckup after fuckup they would have been in position to hammer the Steelers. You prove my point. Steelers have about as little talent as the Browns without those 3-4 guys. (Who, yes, indeed do make a great deal of difference)
and the few key players which are talented are on their way to retirement.
Browns players on way to retirement? Who are you talking about?
Only guy I know who would be retiring is Josh McCown....hardly a key player.
Joe Thomas could play another 7-8 years. Joe Haden probably 3-4 more...unless injuries do him in.
The most key player closest to retirement on either team is your most key player: BR.
When a guy like Pryor stands out, it's not because he is great or even good, it's because he looks head and shoulders better than the void around him.
Or, maybe he is actually pretty good. From what I see, the Steelers would take him in a heartbeat and he would be your top notch 2d receiver.
Could you imagine BR throwing to him? If you say that you wouldn't want that, you would be lying to yourself.
You are a glue head with virtually every one of those statements.
Right....actual facts are not something you have any kind of ability to understand.
The Steelers are one the most talent laden teams in the NFL.
Only if you take those 3-4 players. Otherwise their talent level is pedestrian. If they were so talented besides those guys, ALL that talent would have run over the "Very little talented Browns". Pretty much the opposite happened.
Who's to say the playing for the Browns didn't ruin the QB's?
I say so.....anyone who has seen them play says so. You think they were all so good? Why don't you go ahead an bench BR in favor of Brandon Weeden or Colt McCoy or Derek Anderson or Johnny Manziel or any of those guys. You think they are so good...but I venture you would not went them as the starting QB of your team.
There is VERY little talent on the Browns, AT ANY POSITION,
And yet, without fuckup after fuckup they would have been in position to hammer the Steelers. You prove my point. Steelers have about as little talent as the Browns without those 3-4 guys. (Who, yes, indeed do make a great deal of difference)
and the few key players which are talented are on their way to retirement.
Browns players on way to retirement? Who are you talking about?
Only guy I know who would be retiring is Josh McCown....hardly a key player.
Joe Thomas could play another 7-8 years. Joe Haden probably 3-4 more...unless injuries do him in.
The most key player closest to retirement on either team is your most key player: BR.
When a guy like Pryor stands out, it's not because he is great or even good, it's because he looks head and shoulders better than the void around him.
Or, maybe he is actually pretty good. From what I see, the Steelers would take him in a heartbeat and he would be your top notch 2d receiver.
Could you imagine BR throwing to him? If you say that you wouldn't want that, you would be lying to yourself.
Referring to one game as your measuring stick for the talent on the Browns proves your stupidity.
Thinking that one year of above average play on a team with the least talent in the NFL makes Pryor great cements it.
You continue to forget that despite 3 or 4 players (which isn't valid in the first place) the difference between the Steelers and Browns is that one is a top 3 organization and the other is clearly the worst organization in the NFL.
It's like saying that if you put the best tire you can buy on a junker it could compete in NASCAR.
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I've mentioned it in another thread- around 12 years ago the ping pong balls spit out another NE Ohio kid LeBron James. I think this just might be the year where history is going to repeat itself. The Brown's #1 overall IMHO is playing with house money- we still have the #12 to go for the "safe" pick.
C'mon Shep wannabee, Mitch Trubisky is not the next LeBron James. Don't go getting all senile on us for fucksake.
C'mon Shep wannabee, Mitch Trubisky is not the next LeBron James. Don't go getting all senile on us for fucksake.
He's not an Andrew Luck either- who had the highest grade in recent draft memory. Other than that, every quarterback drafted since like forever has flaws. Do you want us to wait forever until the Browns draft #1 overall again, and there's another Andrew Luck sitting there for us? OK, I'll drop the LeBron analogy. He was a prodigy in the 8th grade, and should he play around 5 more years, He might challenge Jordan as the GOAT. He's already on the Mount Rushmore of basketball greats- BUT.
OK, no, perhaps not LeBron James....but as I said, I think I see a lot of Aaron Rodgers in him......and I think we can use that.
Fair to say?
Yup, I do too Gip. We don't need the GOAT at qb, but having someone on Rodger's level would be refreshing for a change. If he needs time to sit and learn, we give him that time. You don't start your #1 overall pick until you think he's ready.
http://nfldraftcontent.blogspot.com/2016/12/mitch-trubisky-scouting-report-look-at.html
Obviously, look at (insert shit QB here). I just see more questions marks than some of the previous top 10 QBS than in years past.
MHO? The only question is the limited body of work. And Atenears not wanting poor widdle Mitchie to get hurt playing for the Browns.
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Zombo, can this forum be programed so that when someone (Hoorta & Gipper) type in "LeBron James" that it comes up "STFU about LeBron James already"?
just asking.
Funny story......my daughter just graduated from college. There was a graduate student who was also receiving a Masters degree whose name was "LeBon James". He clearly was not named after our boy, as he was close to the same age.
Funny story......my daughter just graduated from college. There was a graduate student who was also receiving a Masters degree whose name was "LeBon James". He clearly was not named after our boy, as he was close to the same age.
I bet that guy gets picked first in pick-up basketball games.
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C'mon Shep wannabee, Mitch Trubisky is not the next LeBron James. Don't go getting all senile on us for fucksake.
He's not an Andrew Luck either- who had the highest grade in recent draft memory. Other than that, every quarterback drafted since like forever has flaws. Do you want us to wait forever until the Browns draft #1 overall again, and there's another Andrew Luck sitting there for us? OK, I'll drop the LeBron analogy. He was a prodigy in the 8th grade, and should he play around 5 more years, He might challenge Jordan as the GOAT. He's already on the Mount Rushmore of basketball greats- BUT.
OK, no, perhaps not LeBron James....but as I said, I think I see a lot of Aaron Rodgers in him......and I think we can use that.
Fair to say?
Yup, I do too Gip. We don't need the GOAT at qb, but having someone on Rodger's level would be refreshing for a change. If he needs time to sit and learn, we give him that time. You don't start your #1 overall pick until you think he's ready.
http://nfldraftcontent.blogspot.com/2016/12/mitch-trubisky-scouting-report-look-at.html
Obviously, look at (insert shit QB here). I just see more questions marks than some of the previous top 10 QBS than in years past.
MHO? The only question is the limited body of work. And Atenears not wanting poor widdle Mitchie to get hurt playing for the Browns.
MHO? The only question is the limited body of work. And Atenears not wanting poor widdle Mitchie to get hurt playing for the Browns.
I never said anything EVER about him getting physically hurt ... you just took the longevity comment and applied it to injury. There are plenty of other ways to have a shortened career besides physical injury.
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You are a glue head with virtually every one of those statements.
Right....actual facts are not something you have any kind of ability to understand.
The Steelers are one the most talent laden teams in the NFL.
Only if you take those 3-4 players. Otherwise their talent level is pedestrian. If they were so talented besides those guys, ALL that talent would have run over the "Very little talented Browns". Pretty much the opposite happened.
Who's to say the playing for the Browns didn't ruin the QB's?
I say so.....anyone who has seen them play says so. You think they were all so good? Why don't you go ahead an bench BR in favor of Brandon Weeden or Colt McCoy or Derek Anderson or Johnny Manziel or any of those guys. You think they are so good...but I venture you would not went them as the starting QB of your team.
There is VERY little talent on the Browns, AT ANY POSITION,
And yet, without fuckup after fuckup they would have been in position to hammer the Steelers. You prove my point. Steelers have about as little talent as the Browns without those 3-4 guys. (Who, yes, indeed do make a great deal of difference)
and the few key players which are talented are on their way to retirement.
Browns players on way to retirement? Who are you talking about?
Only guy I know who would be retiring is Josh McCown....hardly a key player.
Joe Thomas could play another 7-8 years. Joe Haden probably 3-4 more...unless injuries do him in.
The most key player closest to retirement on either team is your most key player: BR.
When a guy like Pryor stands out, it's not because he is great or even good, it's because he looks head and shoulders better than the void around him.
Or, maybe he is actually pretty good. From what I see, the Steelers would take him in a heartbeat and he would be your top notch 2d receiver.
Could you imagine BR throwing to him? If you say that you wouldn't want that, you would be lying to yourself.
Referring to one game as your measuring stick for the talent on the Browns proves your stupidity.
Thinking that one year of above average play on a team with the least talent in the NFL makes Pryor great cements it.
You continue to forget that despite 3 or 4 players (which isn't valid in the first place) the difference between the Steelers and Browns is that one is a top 3 organization and the other is clearly the worst organization in the NFL.
It's like saying that if you put the best tire you can buy on a junker it could compete in NASCAR.
Referring to one game as your measuring stick for the talent on the Browns proves your stupidity.
That one game was between the Browns and Steelers. How else are you to measure two teams?
Thinking that one year of above average play on a team with the least talent in the NFL makes Pryor great cements it.
Whoever said he was great? I said he would have been the second best WR on the Steelers roster...and he would be....and BR would love to throw to him.
If you dispute that...you are a bigger douche nozzle than even anyone could guess.
You continue to forget that despite 3 or 4 players (which isn't valid in the first place) \
Yes, it is....the Steelers talent level over the Browns consists of those 3-4 players.
the difference between the Steelers and Browns is that one is a top 3 organization and the other is clearly the worst organization in the NFL.
OK, I am the one that said that. Why are Steeler fans so stupid as to have such poor reading comprehension. Look at my original post.
I said the difference between the Browns and Steelers is those 3-4 players...and the culture of winning vs. the culture of losing.
The difference between Browns fans and Steeler fans is that Browns fans are smart and can read and Steeler fans are stupid and apparently can't read.
It's like saying that if you put the best tire you can buy on a junker it could compete in NASCAR.
No, its like saying, you take the racing tires off the racecar, and it turns into a junker.
Without BR/Brown/Bell/Pouncey, the Steelers are pretty much the same level of junker, talentwise, as the Browns.
(Browns just can't help from doing whatever it takes to lose...see Sunday)
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MHO? The only question is the limited body of work. And Atenears not wanting poor widdle Mitchie to get hurt playing for the Browns.
I never said anything EVER about him getting physically hurt ... you just took the longevity comment and applied it to injury. There are plenty of other ways to have a shortened career besides physical injury.
I never said anything EVER about him getting physically hurt ... you just took the longevity comment and applied it to injury. There are plenty of other ways to have a shortened career besides physical injury.
Well, OK sorry.....but if we think he is Aaron Rodger and he turns out to be Fred Rogers, so be it.
The thing that would shorten his career is if he is not the QB we think he will become. No team he goes and plays for will save him then. If instead of Rogers, he turns out to be Joey Harrington or Blaine Gabbert or Kelly Stouffer or Heath Shuler...it would mean he just actually sucks....and it won't matter if it is the Browns or anyone else that takes him.
The list of QBs we have had suck because they suck....not because they played for the Browns.
Going to Dallas or Houston didn't save Weeden from being a sucky Browns QB. Going to KC didn't save Quinn from being a sucky QB. Going to the Redskins didn't make Colt McCoy a premier NFL QB.
Etc. etc. These QBs sucked because they sucked.
If Mitch doesn't suck, then he might as well not suck as a member of the Browns. The Browns do not have metaphysical cosmic powers to turn gold or silver into talcum powder.....nor vice versa.
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MHO? The only question is the limited body of work. And Atenears not wanting poor widdle Mitchie to get hurt playing for the Browns.
I never said anything EVER about him getting physically hurt ... you just took the longevity comment and applied it to injury. There are plenty of other ways to have a shortened career besides physical injury.
I never said anything EVER about him getting physically hurt ... you just took the longevity comment and applied it to injury. There are plenty of other ways to have a shortened career besides physical injury.
I think Gip nailed it. the other option is- if you're confident he's got great potential, then he'll show it when he's on the Browns. If he's a bum- he'll be a bum anywhere.
Mitch isn't on LeBron's level but is basically Aaron Rodgers, quite possibly the most talented QB in the league.
And you wonder why people keep calling you homers.....
DeShone Kizer is from Ohio too- you don't see me and Gip giving him any love do you? I wouldn't care if Mitch was from Alaska or Mars for that matter, right now he's the top rated QB prospect. Homers? I think not. There's a difference discussing similarities, as opposed to saying he is on that level. Yeah- it's dangerous to fall in love with a prospect, and I plead guilty to that. But other than Andrew Luck, there isn't any qb potentially coming out in the last 10 years that I've been as high on as Trubisky.
I'll give you another example. Deshawn Watson has a lot of traits in common with RG III. It's why I don't like him. He's going to have to play like Superman against Alabama to jump Mitch.
Its pretty simple, if you remember what DePodesta said earlier this year. They passed on Wentz because they thought he wasn't a potential top 15 qb. If they think Mitch is- do you think they're going to pass this time around, considering how much flack they took for that one? Considering the Browns had the whole crew at the Sun Bowl, I'd have to say they're at least seriously interested.
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C'mon Shep wannabee, Mitch Trubisky is not the next LeBron James. Don't go getting all senile on us for fucksake.
He's not an Andrew Luck either- who had the highest grade in recent draft memory. Other than that, every quarterback drafted since like forever has flaws. Do you want us to wait forever until the Browns draft #1 overall again, and there's another Andrew Luck sitting there for us? OK, I'll drop the LeBron analogy. He was a prodigy in the 8th grade, and should he play around 5 more years, He might challenge Jordan as the GOAT. He's already on the Mount Rushmore of basketball greats- BUT.
OK, no, perhaps not LeBron James....but as I said, I think I see a lot of Aaron Rodgers in him......and I think we can use that.
Fair to say?
Yup, I do too Gip. We don't need the GOAT at qb, but having someone on Rodger's level would be refreshing for a change. If he needs time to sit and learn, we give him that time. You don't start your #1 overall pick until you think he's ready.
http://nfldraftcontent.blogspot.com/2016/12/mitch-trubisky-scouting-report-look-at.html
Obviously, look at (insert shit QB here). I just see more questions marks than some of the previous top 10 QBS than in years past.
MHO? The only question is the limited body of work. And Atenears not wanting poor widdle Mitchie to get hurt playing for the Browns.
Yup, I do too Gip. We don't need the GOAT at qb, but having someone on Rodger's level would be refreshing for a change. If he needs time to sit and learn, we give him that time. You don't start your #1 overall pick until you think he's ready.
If you can assure me that he's the next Aaron Rodgers then I'm all in. Draft him #1 overall and give him 10% ownership in the team as well. From what I've seen and what we also have as a history of guys with 1 year starting in college and how that transfers to a lack of NFL success, there are a lot of red flags about this kid. Besides all that, unless I've missed something, he hasn't even said he's coming out yet.
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I never said anything EVER about him getting physically hurt ... you just took the longevity comment and applied it to injury. There are plenty of other ways to have a shortened career besides physical injury.
I think Gip nailed it. the other option is- if you're confident he's got great potential, then he'll show it when he's on the Browns. If he's a bum- he'll be a bum anywhere.
Mitch isn't on LeBron's level but is basically Aaron Rodgers, quite possibly the most talented QB in the league.
And you wonder why people keep calling you homers.....
DeShone Kizer is from Ohio too- you don't see me and Gip giving him any love do you? I wouldn't care if Mitch was from Alaska or Mars for that matter, right now he's the top rated QB prospect. Homers? I think not. There's a difference discussing similarities, as opposed to saying he is on that level. Yeah- it's dangerous to fall in love with a prospect, and I plead guilty to that. But other than Andrew Luck, there isn't any qb potentially coming out in the last 10 years that I've been as high on as Trubisky.
I'll give you another example. Deshawn Watson has a lot of traits in common with RG III. It's why I don't like him. He's going to have to play like Superman against Alabama to jump Mitch.
Its pretty simple, if you remember what DePodesta said earlier this year. They passed on Wentz because they thought he wasn't a potential top 15 qb. If they think Mitch is- do you think they're going to pass this time around, considering how much flack they took for that one? Considering the Browns had the whole crew at the Sun Bowl, I'd have to say they're at least seriously interested.
Its pretty simple, if you remember what DePodesta said earlier this year. They passed on Wentz because they thought he wasn't a potential top 15 qb. If they think Mitch is- do you think they're going to pass this time around, considering how much flack they took for that one?
No telling yet if they were right to pass on Wentz or not. In the games I watched (and I sit on my ass watching every game every sunday except when I'm in Cleveland) I wasn't overly impressed by Wentz. He rarely does much more other than throw it 5 yards at a time and has been noted by NFL insiders that he's late and high on his passes over the middle. Obviously that can change. Marriotta didn't light the world on fire his rookie year either but he certainly made a big jump this year before getting hurt.
If they think he's the QB of the future, then he has to be taken #1 overall despite my preference to pick 2 defensive studs in the first round.
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Breaking it down further:
2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz
2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota
2014: QB taken #3...Bortles
2013: none taken top 5
2012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin
2011: QB taken #1 Newton
2010: QB taken #1 Bradford
2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez
2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan
2007: QB taken #1: Russell
I think the "hit vs. bust" rate on QBs taken Top 5 over these last 10 years seems quite a bit over 50%. Russell and Sanchez may be only certified busts (though Sanchez did take his team to two AFC title games...for what that's worth)
Breaking it down further:
2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz
2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota
2014: QB taken #3...Bortles
2013: none taken top 5
2012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin
2011: QB taken #1 Newton
2010: QB taken #1 Bradford
2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez
2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan
2007: QB taken #1: Russell
I think the "hit vs. bust" rate on QBs taken Top 5 over these last 10 years seems quite a bit over 50%. Russell and Sanchez may be only certified busts (though Sanchez did take his team to two AFC title games...for what that's worth)
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
Ruining threads since 1897. -
Breaking it down further:
2016: QBs taken #1 and #2...Goff/Wentz
2015: QBs taken #1 and #2...Winston/Mariota
2014: QB taken #3...Bortles
2013: none taken top 5
2012: QBs taken #1 and #2 Luck/Griffin
2011: QB taken #1 Newton
2010: QB taken #1 Bradford
2009: QB taken #1 and #5 Stafford/Sanchez
2008: QB taken #3 Matt Ryan
2007: QB taken #1: Russell
I think the "hit vs. bust" rate on QBs taken Top 5 over these last 10 years seems quite a bit over 50%. Russell and Sanchez may be only certified busts (though Sanchez did take his team to two AFC title games...for what that's worth)
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
I wouldn't even count the most recent drafts for hits and missed, too early to tell. Looking through it 2007 - 2014 I have it 4-1-4 with Bortles being the tie.
I'm 3-2-4 with bortles not a tie. Perspective is funny.
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Absolutely, ghoolie. We need to invest in O-linemen and make sure that the QB is protected and we can have a solid run game.
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And what if we take Triblowski #1 overall and he turns out to be David Carr? You're still in QB hell and you wasted a chance to get a defensive monster because you over valued a QB because we need one. There isn't a QB worth the #1 overall pick. Figure out the guy on defense who will be a stud and take him. Certailny looks to me like Bosa is better than both QB's taken at ahead of him.
and if garrett turns out to be another courtney brown, where are we then?
and if garrett turns out to be another courtney brown, where are we then?
Hard to predict injury.
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You are a glue head with virtually every one of those statements.
Right....actual facts are not something you have any kind of ability to understand.
The Steelers are one the most talent laden teams in the NFL.
Only if you take those 3-4 players. Otherwise their talent level is pedestrian. If they were so talented besides those guys, ALL that talent would have run over the "Very little talented Browns". Pretty much the opposite happened.
Who's to say the playing for the Browns didn't ruin the QB's?
I say so.....anyone who has seen them play says so. You think they were all so good? Why don't you go ahead an bench BR in favor of Brandon Weeden or Colt McCoy or Derek Anderson or Johnny Manziel or any of those guys. You think they are so good...but I venture you would not went them as the starting QB of your team.
There is VERY little talent on the Browns, AT ANY POSITION,
And yet, without fuckup after fuckup they would have been in position to hammer the Steelers. You prove my point. Steelers have about as little talent as the Browns without those 3-4 guys. (Who, yes, indeed do make a great deal of difference)
and the few key players which are talented are on their way to retirement.
Browns players on way to retirement? Who are you talking about?
Only guy I know who would be retiring is Josh McCown....hardly a key player.
Joe Thomas could play another 7-8 years. Joe Haden probably 3-4 more...unless injuries do him in.
The most key player closest to retirement on either team is your most key player: BR.
When a guy like Pryor stands out, it's not because he is great or even good, it's because he looks head and shoulders better than the void around him.
Or, maybe he is actually pretty good. From what I see, the Steelers would take him in a heartbeat and he would be your top notch 2d receiver.
Could you imagine BR throwing to him? If you say that you wouldn't want that, you would be lying to yourself.
The Steelers are one the most talent laden teams in the NFL.
Only if you take those 3-4 players. Otherwise their talent level is pedestrian. If they were so talented besides those guys, ALL that talent would have run over the "Very little talented Browns". Pretty much the opposite happened.
One meaningless game doesn't do your argument justice.
Pittsburgh is #12 in defense, Browns #31
http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/total/position/defense
You could say many teams that without their top 3 or four stars that they are "pedestrian" or as good as the browns...which of course would also be ridiculous.
What names in New England stand out besides Brady, Gronk and maybe Blount?
In Dallas...Dak, Elliot, and Bryant...but you cant exclude their offensive line,.... nor Pittsburghs nor New Englands.
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2016/12/steelers-offensive-line-chance-set-franchise-record-sunday/
The Steelers without Ben, Brown, and Bell would still win a lot of games, therefore would still be better than the browns, not equal to them.
Williams is still a damn good running back, the Steelers have an arsenal of quality wide recievers and tight ends all better than Coleman. Landry Jones would be the weakest link, but the dude hardly plays. Given time I believe he would improve.
He did a hell of a job in the second half vs. the Browns.
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You could say many teams that without their top 3 or four stars that they are "pedestrian" or as good as the browns...which of course would also be ridiculous.
Browns without their best 3-4 players...oh dear
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