Joe Thomas on #1 overall...
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Zombo said:
Who, Garrett?
That's toughness and commitment, great traits, but I want to hear about a mean streak too.
I have no idea ... Never watched him .. A&M guys?
Yup... Ag has mentioned it in nearly every Garrett discussion. Suffered a high-ankle sprain in Week 4 vs. Arkansas. He missed some plays then finsihed the rest of that game before missing the following week and playing through it the rest of the season.
Mean streak? It was discussed a while ago and Aggie accounts were that it's not there. I'm just reexamining its "essentiality" and I am having trouble coming up with a list of current players who embody "nasty". Certainly does not apply to our best two players: Joe and Danny.
Intense? No problem there. Kuechley... Kirksey... Shazier... Miller... K-Mack... Donald... Berry...
Players with attitude? Ditto. Sherman or most any SEA D-player... Zeke... Rivers...
But nasty/mean? Harrison? Seems to have mellowed. Even Suh didn't stomp anyone this year.
Who is your model "mean steak" player?
Yup... Ag has mentioned it in nearly every Garrett discussion. Suffered a high-ankle sprain in Week 4 vs. Arkansas. He missed some plays then finsihed the rest of that game before missing the following week and playing through it the rest of the season.
Mean streak? It was discussed a while ago and Aggie accounts were that it's not there. I'm just reexamining its "essentiality" and I am having trouble coming up with a list of current players who embody "nasty". Certainly does not apply to our best two players: Joe and Danny.
Intense? No problem there. Kuechley... Kirksey... Shazier... Miller... K-Mack... Donald... Berry...
Players with attitude? Ditto. Sherman or most any SEA D-player... Zeke... Rivers...
But nasty/mean? Harrison? Seems to have mellowed. Even Suh didn't stomp anyone this year.
Who is your model "mean steak" player?
I think what you are calling "intense" embodies the "mean streak" I'm looking for. Von Miller is very nasty on the field. Plays like the QB said something mean about his momma. That's what I want to see. Not just another "great athlete" that has a "nice career" ... I want a nasty sob that is out to kill.
The greatest pass rushers all play with anger and intensity. Combine the intensity and freak athleticism and you get your Bruce Smith's and Von Miller's.
Courtney Brown could have played in the league a long time if he stayed healthy, but he never would have been a legendary player because he didn't have the killer instinct.
Zombo
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Zombo said:
Who, Garrett?
That's toughness and commitment, great traits, but I want to hear about a mean streak too.
I have no idea ... Never watched him
.. A&M guys?
Zombo
Only two traits matter here. Commitment to being the best player on the field every time he steps on it. And the relentlessness that goes with that throughout an entire game, even when playing on one bad wheel. We won several overtime games these past couple of years and Garrett taking it to another level in each of those was the most critical factor, in my opinion, to getting those wins. The harder the challenge the more he steps up his game, even when everyone else is dog tired. Teams feed off that. Joe Thomas will love the kid and make him better. Garrett will love the challenge.
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Zombo said:
We've drafted what we thought were going to be pass rushers twice in the Top six, Brown and Mingo, and both were soft as shit.
This fucker better have an edge to him
Z
We've drafted edge rushers, running backs, receivers, corners, TEs and tackles in the top ten and most haven't worked out. Being soft as shit or hard as frozen shit isn't the point - get good football players.
We've drafted edge rushers, running backs, receivers, corners, TEs and tackles in the top ten and most haven't worked out. Being soft as shit or hard as frozen shit isn't the point - get good football players.
But...no QBs, not since Tim Couch.
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But...no QBs, not since Tim Couch.
You're missing the point there Gip.
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Von is terrifying on the field. And he was incredibly mean when he got to A&M. Most of the athletes lived in 4-bedroom apartments. They had to give Von his own, because he played (lived) so poorly with others.
Maybe it's the glasses...
Von comes off as very controlled, calm, relaxed in interviews. Just saw him in one yesterday.
On-field? Intense to be sure and in combo with his physical gifts I can certainly see them add up to "terrifying", but not menacing... not "nasty"... certainly not dirty or cheap-shotting.
Just my long-distance take... which I am not in position to augment with TAMU tales.
Could be he's grown? Grown up?
Maybe it's the glasses...
Von comes off as very controlled, calm, relaxed in interviews. Just saw him in one yesterday.
On-field? Intense to be sure and in combo with his physical gifts I can certainly see them add up to "terrifying", but not menacing... not "nasty"... certainly not dirty or cheap-shotting.
Just my long-distance take... which I am not in position to augment with TAMU tales.
Could be he's grown? Grown up?
Don't get me wrong, Mike Sherman turned him into a man. But I doubt that's affected his on-field persona. Did ya see the interview where he bragged about trying to teabag Brady?
I think he's menacing in a The Joker sort of way. It's more him laughing at you as he does it than him just being a total ahole.
Anyway, regardless, back to the point. Garrett is none of that. We will see if that matters or not.
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You say confusing... I say discerning... Let's call the whole thing off...
Burfict?
We have a winner...
Zombo said:
I think what you are calling "intense" embodies the "mean streak" I'm looking for. Von Miller is very nasty on the field. Plays like the QB said something mean about his momma. That's what I want to see. Not just another "great athlete" that has a "nice career" ... I want a nasty sob that is out to kill.
The greatest pass rushers all play with anger and intensity. Combine the intensity and freak athleticism and you get your Bruce Smith's and Von Miller's.
Courtney Brown could have played in the league a long time if he stayed healthy, but he never would have been a legendary player because he didn't have the killer instinct.Joe Jones 2.0?
I joke, but am still hard pressed to think of a post 2000's day player that played truly, visibly "angry". Deacon Jones fit that description... Lambert certainly did... Tatum... Ray Ray? Not so sure... not the latter day version anyway.
I dunno... maybe it's just my symantical hangup, AKA a "personal problem", but "angry" or "mean" or "nasty" or "killer" bring a borderline out-of-control with them that fits Burfect and maybe a couple others (Aquib "I'll poke your eye out" Talib just sprang to mind). They may operate on the "legal" side of the proverbial line almost all the time, but every once in a while... or in Burfect's case thrice in a while... they go off.
Anyway... Intense? Absolutely... with a heaping helping of will-not-be-denied determination that only grows with not getting the job done because the man across from you is winning your personal battle within the greater gridiron war... but you never, ever lose control... and you never become satisfied... even if it's you winning repeatedly.
I'll bet that sounds like a guy you'd covet as well.
You're missing the point there Gip.
What? Are you implying the #1 overall does not come with pixie dust?
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Yes, I think you are having a symantical hangup.
"Mean streak" and "Nasty" doesn't mean psychopath, it means they play with passion. Or as I first put it ... An "edge".
Certainly you have seen a lot of that in our division ... Ray Lewis, Jerome Harrison, Geno Atkins ... That Dupree kid Pittsburgh has now looks to have "it".
Bark Mingo is still perfect size, can still run fast and jump high ... Doesn't play with fire. No mean streak. Useless as male nipples.
To me, that fire is the bridge from great athlete to great football player.
I want to hear Garrett has it if we are throwing #1 overall around. He needs to be Miller or Mack. They aren't just great athletes, they play with intensity and passion.
Z
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Cushing is a mean streak guy too. Also Brandon Spikes tried to poke someone's eye out.
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Well as I said on another thread, he sees himself as his favorite dinosaur "raptor" on the field and likes to play that way. As long as he gets there as fast as one and takes people down with his "claws", then I don't care how mild he seems off the field.
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Well as I said on another thread, he sees himself as his favorite dinosaur "raptor" on the field and likes to play that way. As long as he gets there as fast as one and takes people down with his "claws", then I don't care how mild he seems off the field.
Well as I said on another thread, he sees himself as his favorite dinosaur "raptor" on the field and likes to play that way. As long as he gets there as fast as one and takes people down with his "claws", then I don't care how mild he seems off the field.
Ya, no one gives a shit about off the field.
Unless he's a quarterback.
And he blows off his team at the end of the year to party.
Twice.
And his name's Johnny.
Zombo
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Yes, I think you are having a symantical hangup.
"Mean streak" and "Nasty" doesn't mean psychopath, it means they play with passion. Or as I first put it ... An "edge".
Certainly you have seen a lot of that in our division ... Ray Lewis, Jerome Harrison, Geno Atkins ... That Dupree kid Pittsburgh has now looks to have "it".
Bark Mingo is still perfect size, can still run fast and jump high ... Doesn't play with fire. No mean streak. Useless as male nipples.
To me, that fire is the bridge from great athlete to great football player.
I want to hear Garrett has it if we are throwing #1 overall around. He needs to be Miller or Mack. They aren't just great athletes, they play with intensity and passion.
Z
Zombo said:
"Mean streak" and "Nasty" doesn't mean psychopath, it means they play with passion. Or as I first put it ... An "edge".
Certainly you have seen a lot of that in our division ... Ray Lewis, Jerome Harrison, Geno Atkins ... That Dupree kid Pittsburgh has now looks to have "it"...
Z, your guy is Reuben Foster..my damn laptop won't download but youtube reuben foster national title game & picture Big Bitchin Ben getting closed-line like Watson does early in game by Foster..If that don't work How about the "Watson Helicopter Spin" sponsored by Foster late in same game...Every Dawg Needs a Bitch..W O O F!!
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He ain't JM off the field. Mr. Opposite in fact.
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Yes, I think you are having a symantical hangup.
"Mean streak" and "Nasty" doesn't mean psychopath, it means they play with passion. Or as I first put it ... An "edge".
Certainly you have seen a lot of that in our division ... Ray Lewis, Jerome Harrison, Geno Atkins ... That Dupree kid Pittsburgh has now looks to have "it".
Bark Mingo is still perfect size, can still run fast and jump high ... Doesn't play with fire. No mean streak. Useless as male nipples.
To me, that fire is the bridge from great athlete to great football player.
I want to hear Garrett has it if we are throwing #1 overall around. He needs to be Miller or Mack. They aren't just great athletes, they play with intensity and passion.
Z
Zombo said:
... they play with intensity and passion.
I think we finally have our word.
Cushing is a mean streak guy too. Also Brandon Spikes tried to poke someone's eye out.
Cushing is a great example...
... (Garrett) sees himself as his favorite dinosaur "raptor" on the field and likes to play that way.
I was going to make an arm-length joke, but turns out raptors arms were pretty damn long... I hate it when that happens...
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On field and off field attitude are two separate entities.
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Yes, I think you are having a symantical hangup.
"Mean streak" and "Nasty" doesn't mean psychopath, it means they play with passion. Or as I first put it ... An "edge".
Certainly you have seen a lot of that in our division ... Ray Lewis, Jerome Harrison, Geno Atkins ... That Dupree kid Pittsburgh has now looks to have "it".
Bark Mingo is still perfect size, can still run fast and jump high ... Doesn't play with fire. No mean streak. Useless as male nipples.
To me, that fire is the bridge from great athlete to great football player.
I want to hear Garrett has it if we are throwing #1 overall around. He needs to be Miller or Mack. They aren't just great athletes, they play with intensity and passion.
Z
Zombo said:
Yes, I think you are having a symantical hangup.
"Mean streak" and "Nasty" doesn't mean psychopath, it means they play with passion. Or as I first put it ... An "edge".
Certainly you have seen a lot of that in our division ... Ray Lewis, Jerome Harrison, Geno Atkins ... That Dupree kid Pittsburgh has now looks to have "it".
Bark Mingo is still perfect size, can still run fast and jump high ... Doesn't play with fire. No mean streak. Useless as male nipples.
To me, that fire is the bridge from great athlete to great football player.
I want to hear Garrett has it if we are throwing #1 overall around. He needs to be Miller or Mack. They aren't just great athletes, they play with intensity and passion.
Z
And like I've said forever about Mingo, he has the instincts of a raccoon crossing the road at night. Sometimes, you have to have a front office that can IDENTIFY if a guy has instincts or not on film. I've watched us draft guys like Mingo thinking all he needs is a little coaching up.
We've also repeatedly drafted WRs that can't catch thinking all we have to do is coach it up. Then we gave up way too early on guys like Lance Moore and Willie Snead. Keep in mind, we also CUT Pryor in 2015 before we brought him back way too late to get any game experience whatsoever.
I never thought I be typing we gave up way too early on Taylor Gabriel too; but then again we didn't have Matt Ryan throwing strikes or Julio Jones attracting extra DB attention to ease his matchups. My final memory of Gabriel here was the bubble screen in St Louis that gave him Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and allergies to Flip's flop here. I'm not sure he would have found our 2016 set up any better or anywhere as near as comfortable as returning to the OC he once averaged 17.3 yards per catch for.
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Zombo said:
Yes, I think you are having a symantical hangup.
"Mean streak" and "Nasty" doesn't mean psychopath, it means they play with passion. Or as I first put it ... An "edge".
Certainly you have seen a lot of that in our division ... Ray Lewis, Jerome Harrison, Geno Atkins ... That Dupree kid Pittsburgh has now looks to have "it".
Bark Mingo is still perfect size, can still run fast and jump high ... Doesn't play with fire. No mean streak. Useless as male nipples.
To me, that fire is the bridge from great athlete to great football player.
I want to hear Garrett has it if we are throwing #1 overall around. He needs to be Miller or Mack. They aren't just great athletes, they play with intensity and passion.
Z
And like I've said forever about Mingo, he has the instincts of a raccoon crossing the road at night. Sometimes, you have to have a front office that can IDENTIFY if a guy has instincts or not on film. I've watched us draft guys like Mingo thinking all he needs is a little coaching up.
We've also repeatedly drafted WRs that can't catch thinking all we have to do is coach it up. Then we gave up way too early on guys like Lance Moore and Willie Snead. Keep in mind, we also CUT Pryor in 2015 before we brought him back way too late to get any game experience whatsoever.
I never thought I be typing we gave up way too early on Taylor Gabriel too; but then again we didn't have Matt Ryan throwing strikes or Julio Jones attracting extra DB attention to ease his matchups. My final memory of Gabriel here was the bubble screen in St Louis that gave him Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and allergies to Flip's flop here. I'm not sure he would have found our 2016 set up any better or anywhere as near as comfortable as returning to the OC he once averaged 17.3 yards per catch for.
And like I've said forever about Mingo, he has the instincts of a raccoon crossing the road at night. Sometimes, you have to have a front office that can IDENTIFY if a guy has instincts or not on film. I've watched us draft guys like Mingo thinking all he needs is a little coaching up.
We've also repeatedly drafted WRs that can't catch thinking all we have to do is coach it up. Then we gave up way too early on guys like Lance Moore and Willie Snead. Keep in mind, we also CUT Pryor in 2015 before we brought him back way too late to get any game experience whatsoever.
I never thought I be typing we gave up way too early on Taylor Gabriel too; but then again we didn't have Matt Ryan throwing strikes or Julio Jones attracting extra DB attention to ease his matchups. My final memory of Gabriel here was the bubble screen in St Louis that gave him Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and allergies to Flip's flop here. I'm not sure he would have found our 2016 set up any better or anywhere as near as comfortable as returning to the OC he once averaged 17.3 yards per catch for.
This is why I wonder about the whole "analytical" process thing. It accounts for numbers, statistics etc....but does it measure passion and intensity? I assume not, so how do they work around that?
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And like I've said forever about Mingo, he has the instincts of a raccoon crossing the road at night. Sometimes, you have to have a front office that can IDENTIFY if a guy has instincts or not on film. I've watched us draft guys like Mingo thinking all he needs is a little coaching up.
We've also repeatedly drafted WRs that can't catch thinking all we have to do is coach it up. Then we gave up way too early on guys like Lance Moore and Willie Snead. Keep in mind, we also CUT Pryor in 2015 before we brought him back way too late to get any game experience whatsoever.
I never thought I be typing we gave up way too early on Taylor Gabriel too; but then again we didn't have Matt Ryan throwing strikes or Julio Jones attracting extra DB attention to ease his matchups. My final memory of Gabriel here was the bubble screen in St Louis that gave him Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and allergies to Flip's flop here. I'm not sure he would have found our 2016 set up any better or anywhere as near as comfortable as returning to the OC he once averaged 17.3 yards per catch for.
This is why I wonder about the whole "analytical" process thing. It accounts for numbers, statistics etc....but does it measure passion and intensity? I assume not, so how do they work around that?
This is why I wonder about the whole "analytical" process thing. It accounts for numbers, statistics etc....but does it measure passion and intensity? I assume not, so how do they work around that?
Well most teams actually have scouts who get out from behind their computers to find out first hand what kinds of intangibles are in play. The Browns have obviously had extremely poor scouting overall. Hopefully at the Combine and at school pro days we will actually do more than superficial interviewing. War's reference to Ogbuehi being given fits in practice when he was there with Garrett would be a good starting place. Ogbuehi could give a lot of insight into what drives Garrett to be the best player on the field and how that translated to daily practice against one another. From there (and many other sources) the best scouts develop the best questions for potential draftees.
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This is why I wonder about the whole "analytical" process thing. It accounts for numbers, statistics etc....but does it measure passion and intensity? I assume not, so how do they work around that?
Well most teams actually have scouts who get out from behind their computers to find out first hand what kinds of intangibles are in play. The Browns have obviously had extremely poor scouting overall. Hopefully at the Combine and at school pro days we will actually do more than superficial interviewing. War's reference to Ogbuehi being given fits in practice when he was there with Garrett would be a good starting place. Ogbuehi could give a lot of insight into what drives Garrett to be the best player on the field and how that translated to daily practice against one another. From there (and many other sources) the best scouts develop the best questions for potential draftees.
Well most teams actually have scouts who get out from behind their computers to find out first hand what kinds of intangibles are in play. The Browns have obviously had extremely poor scouting overall. Hopefully at the Combine and at school pro days we will actually do more than superficial interviewing. War's reference to Ogbuehi being given fits in practice when he was there with Garrett would be a good starting place. Ogbuehi could give a lot of insight into what drives Garrett to be the best player on the field and how that translated to daily practice against one another. From there (and many other sources) the best scouts develop the best questions for potential draftees.
Since Ogbuehi ended up at OG...
Interesting take... I wonder how much intel is sought from players on other teams. Seems less "secure" than former coaches and other sources. Plus contact with players under contract with other teams is heavily regulated. But if done, then players in the other conference would be the best, or least bad, choice. Might depend on interactions with a given player when they were in the draft.
Whatever we are doing, I think it has to be more than we were doing given Farmer's seeming lack of interest in visiting with players. Can't remember Browns reps squirting water on balls prior to last year.
Also wonder how much we have involved/will involve players in prospect evals... or, again, how much we can involve them. Would have been cool to see Joe T. "assisting" our South staff in Mobile, but he had a business conflict in Orlando. Certainly would seem appropriate to involve team leaders in prospect visits to Berea. A Myles workout opposite Joe would be interesting.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Well most teams actually have scouts who get out from behind their computers to find out first hand what kinds of intangibles are in play. The Browns have obviously had extremely poor scouting overall. Hopefully at the Combine and at school pro days we will actually do more than superficial interviewing. War's reference to Ogbuehi being given fits in practice when he was there with Garrett would be a good starting place. Ogbuehi could give a lot of insight into what drives Garrett to be the best player on the field and how that translated to daily practice against one another. From there (and many other sources) the best scouts develop the best questions for potential draftees.
Since Ogbuehi ended up at OG...
Interesting take... I wonder how much intel is sought from players on other teams. Seems less "secure" than former coaches and other sources. Plus contact with players under contract with other teams is heavily regulated. But if done, then players in the other conference would be the best, or least bad, choice. Might depend on interactions with a given player when they were in the draft.
Whatever we are doing, I think it has to be more than we were doing given Farmer's seeming lack of interest in visiting with players. Can't remember Browns reps squirting water on balls prior to last year.
Also wonder how much we have involved/will involve players in prospect evals... or, again, how much we can involve them. Would have been cool to see Joe T. "assisting" our South staff in Mobile, but he had a business conflict in Orlando. Certainly would seem appropriate to involve team leaders in prospect visits to Berea. A Myles workout opposite Joe would be interesting.
Interesting take... I wonder how much intel is sought from players on other teams. Seems less "secure" than former coaches and other sources.
I would argue that Hue Jackson asking Ogbuehi, his former player, about Myles Garrett isn't a huge risk. Maybe asking about other players on the team, sure, but literally everyone expects Garrett to be in the conversation at #1.
In general, asking players on your own team about prospects isn't something I'd considered before but really should be done when thinking about it.
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