This is not the year for a #1 Qb pick
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@boo-radley said:
Yup, and the so called experts will be oohing and aahing on draft day over QBs and every other position who will be busts.
Never fails.
Eric Fisher was a cant miss Left Tackle who has been a disappointment in KC.
Well, just go down the draft list of every first round in the last 15 years. You will likely see at least 1/3rd to 1/2 of them be considered busts. No matter what the position. Its just that with the Browns it has been more like 80%. We have had busted QBs, RBs, OCs, DBs, LBs, DTs, WRs
The ONLY guys the Browns have drafted that perhaps no one considers a bust since 1999 are Faine, Mack, Thomas, Haden, and likely Shelton.
That is 5 out of 21 1st round picks that were NOT busts.
Let me rephrase: 16 out of 21 first round picks by the Browns since 1999 can be considered Busts!!! Or over 76% of our picks
(well, Corey Coleman is included...to early on him)
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And check out this list, these players by some standard can be considered the biggest bust drafted in round 1 since 2007:
1. AJ Jenkins WR 49ers
2. Marcus Smith LB Eagles
3. Derrick Sherod OT Packers
4. Dion Jordan DE Miami
5. Jonathan Baldwin WR KC
6. Darqueze Denard DB Bengals
7. Justin Gilbert DB Browns
8. Aaron Maybin DE Bills
9. Dave Wilson RB NYG
10. John P. Manziel QB Browns
What does this tell us? First...that the Browns 2014 may go down as one of the epic bad drafts in history.
Also....that it isn't just QBs that bust. DEs and LBs are in here too.
Who are the 10 Best 1st round draft picks since 2007?:
1. Matt Ryan QB Falcons
2. Patrick Willis LB 49ers
3. Darrelle Revis DB Jets
4. Adrian Peterson RB Vikings
5. Cam Newton QB Panthers
6. JJ Watt DL Texans
7. Joe Thomas OT Browns
8. Joe Flacco QB Ravens
9. Calvin Johnson WR Lions
10. Matt Stafford QB Lions.
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Never saw his windup being THAT bad. Something happen over the course of the season ?
OK... I exagerated a lil' bit, but Kizer was routinely dropping the ball from mid-chest to belt level before coming back and up to throwing position. I do need to follow my own advice though and look at some 2015 tape to see if it was thee then as well.
That's one thing I will give the Trub-crowd... Mitchy has a very compact motion. From mid-chest straight up and back to slightly behind his right shoulder.
@boo-radley said:
Eric Fisher was a cant miss Left Tackle who has been a disappointment in KC.
... but has salvaged his career by attaining mediocrity...
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After the Browns passed on drafting ...Wentz last draft, it's tough to see them
drafting Trubisky that high, unless the needs are far fewer and they have
players throughout the rest of the draft that they have their eyes on, and can
take the chance this draft.
Anything can go on this draft - it's going to be amazing to watch it unfold.
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I just... I wonder if anyone actually looked at the Colts roster. He took them to the playoffs as a rookie with that. Actually he did it sans Hilton.
Re: Trub. a good portion of his perceived armed strength lies with his throwing motion which I remember being pretty compact.
I'll have to give Kizer a second look. At this point Mitch is becoming the only QB I want to see in the first 2 rounds. I can't get on board with Mahomes.
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Trent Richardson is another bust
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The more i think about it the more going with a mahomes/webb pick in round 2 and starting next year with kessler as the QB is the safest bet. I don't know if there is any really day 1 talent type players in this draft. If we don't sign a vet QB or Trade for one I could see Kessler starting the year as QB1.
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After the Browns passed on drafting ...Wentz last draft, it's tough to see them
drafting Trubisky that high, unless the needs are far fewer and they have
players throughout the rest of the draft that they have their eyes on, and can
take the chance this draft.
Anything can go on this draft - it's going to be amazing to watch it unfold.
After the Browns passed on drafting ...Wentz last draft, it's tough to see them
drafting Trubisky that high, unless the needs are far fewer and they have
players throughout the rest of the draft that they have their eyes on, and can
take the chance this draft.
Anything can go on this draft - it's going to be amazing to watch it unfold.
As Hue said at the Senior Bowl- everything is on the table.
The more i think about it the more going with a mahomes/webb pick in round 2 and starting next year with kessler as the QB is the safest bet. I don't know if there is any really day 1 talent type players in this draft. If we don't sign a vet QB or Trade for one I could see Kessler starting the year as QB1.
I assume you meant QB. Garrett is a lock day one starter wherever he goes. Right now, It's Mitch or pass on day one. Mahomes may not last till day 2, and he's not a top 10 pick. .
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i have a feeling mitch is going to come in undersized at the combine with an average athletic score. That being said he still is the most pro ready qb right now which is fine. i just think we need to focus on getting the D fixed up add a new solving the C situation an grabbing Webb/Mahomes in round 2-3. My preference is webb as his arm is the best in class and he has the prototypical size you want. I still attest that Kessler played very well for his rookie year and if he can improve his arm velocity and most importantly his throwing base in the offseason aswell as hitting the weightroom to add some strength/athleticism he can be the franchise guy. Guys like Webb have the physical advantage he wont have though.
Garrett at 1 and hope for foster or a top flight DB/S at 12 -
i have a feeling mitch is going to come in undersized at the combine with an average athletic score. That being said he still is the most pro ready qb right now which is fine. i just think we need to focus on getting the D fixed up add a new solving the C situation an grabbing Webb/Mahomes in round 2-3. My preference is webb as his arm is the best in class and he has the prototypical size you want. I still attest that Kessler played very well for his rookie year and if he can improve his arm velocity and most importantly his throwing base in the offseason aswell as hitting the weightroom to add some strength/athleticism he can be the franchise guy. Guys like Webb have the physical advantage he wont have though.
Garrett at 1 and hope for foster or a top flight DB/S at 12i have a feeling mitch is going to come in undersized at the combine with an average athletic score. That being said he still is the most pro ready qb right now which is fine. i just think we need to focus on getting the D fixed up add a new solving the C situation an grabbing Webb/Mahomes in round 2-3. My preference is webb as his arm is the best in class and he has the prototypical size you want. I still attest that Kessler played very well for his rookie year and if he can improve his arm velocity and most importantly his throwing base in the offseason aswell as hitting the weightroom to add some strength/athleticism he can be the franchise guy. Guys like Webb have the physical advantage he wont have though.
Garrett at 1 and hope for foster or a top flight DB/S at 12
I've said I'm not averse to Garret @ #1, though I won't love it. Regarding Mitch coming in "undersized" at the combine- where's that coming from? Reference please? All I've heard is vague reference to a Tweet, which is complete BS, unless he was in the NC locker room when he got measured. 6' 1" may be a tad undersized if it's true, but hardly a disqualifier.
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I think the browns are going to try and do what they can to fix the QB spot but they are not going to force it.
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"Heresy---------All Heresy!!"-The Gipper
No, its just that the only negative they have to say about Trubisky is "he didn't have that many starts". And that's it.
And, for a guy like you that was not around for the Savage years, lets face it.....whatever he says....your best plan is to do the opposite.
No, its just that the only negative they have to say about Trubisky is "he didn't have that many starts". And that's it.
That's pretty much my biggest/only worry with Trubisky about this 1st overall pick. This collaterally envelopes reading progressions against much more complicated defenses ahead (ie; going from reading Wake Forest to New England). Trubisky has some great qualities I already specified some 6-8 weeks ago when I said I understood why you liked him. He's not being ranked as the #1 QB by accident in various places. I DO like the kid but that doesn't mean I shouldn't nit-pick at #1. Saying I see him as equitable to Derek Carr is not an insult at all. Derek Carr would be the top ranked QB of this class while he was a 2nd round QB in his class. We have about 3 months to decide on which pick of the litter we like best so why hurry into 1 corner?
When Cardale Jones was only 3 starts old - he looked a lot more intriguing for NFL teams than he did when he played his way back into a backup role the next season. The "Fail for Cardale" parade never reached the 2nd block.
I've watched a lot of film of Garrett in the last week and I'm not joining the hype. Yes, when he's not being blocked - he can close on a QB or make TFLs for a loss in a hurry. And he'll test like Courtney Brown and Mike Mamula at the Underwear Olympics in Indy. In the NFL, he'll face Left Tackles and get chipped constantly. War is a huge Aggies fan that recently posted he'd like us to draft Foster 1st.
Allen isn't as "Big Sexy" with the sacks in an unselfish role in team defense on one of the highest rated defenses ever in college football. A lot of his teammates are going to be drafted in the first 2-3 rounds. What I like about him is he's flexible enough to play any technique exceptionally well while maintaining a pad height for superior leverage in the trench wars. Best of all, his head is always up so he finds the football and makes the tackle at first contact. He's a more compact version of Richard Seymour, who came in handy back when NE had so many injuries up front that BB had to switch for a 43 to a 34. Right now, Allen or Foster is my favorite pick at #1.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
"Heresy---------All Heresy!!"-The Gipper
No, its just that the only negative they have to say about Trubisky is "he didn't have that many starts". And that's it.
And, for a guy like you that was not around for the Savage years, lets face it.....whatever he says....your best plan is to do the opposite.
No, its just that the only negative they have to say about Trubisky is "he didn't have that many starts". And that's it.
And, for a guy like you that was not around for the Savage years, lets face it.....whatever he says....your best plan is to do the opposite.
Yeah, who would figure that the amount of starts a college QB had would be such a huge bugaboo for teams considering on drafting them? I mean, its not like they're being drafted with the goal of playing QB in the NFL full time or anything...
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i have a feeling mitch is going to come in undersized at the combine with an average athletic score. That being said he still is the most pro ready qb right now which is fine. i just think we need to focus on getting the D fixed up add a new solving the C situation an grabbing Webb/Mahomes in round 2-3. My preference is webb as his arm is the best in class and he has the prototypical size you want. I still attest that Kessler played very well for his rookie year and if he can improve his arm velocity and most importantly his throwing base in the offseason aswell as hitting the weightroom to add some strength/athleticism he can be the franchise guy. Guys like Webb have the physical advantage he wont have though.
Garrett at 1 and hope for foster or a top flight DB/S at 12
I've said I'm not averse to Garret @ #1, though I won't love it. Regarding Mitch coming in "undersized" at the combine- where's that coming from? Reference please? All I've heard is vague reference to a Tweet, which is complete BS, unless he was in the NC locker room when he got measured. 6' 1" may be a tad undersized if it's true, but hardly a disqualifier.
I've said I'm not averse to Garret @ #1, though I won't love it. Regarding Mitch coming in "undersized" at the combine- where's that coming from? Reference please? All I've heard is vague reference to a Tweet, which is complete BS, unless he was in the NC locker room when he got measured. 6' 1" may be a tad undersized if it's true, but hardly a disqualifier.
I'm not in love with what I've seen on film from Garrett; and I'm afraid most of it will get written off to the ankle injury. Just to illustrate how far away from the draft we are, he lasted less than 1 week on my wish list at #1 overall. Not only that, I haven't seen enough of Nate Orchard (IR in 2016) to totally write him off just yet. Hopefully, Gregg Williams will have a better place for him than Horton seemed to envision.
As I just wrote to the other visitor (Gips) I had here in Nashville last October, the only question I have about Trubisky is the body of work (not to be confused with the body of the player). Love the build, arm strength and the elusiveness it equips him with behind a suspect protection upfront. If for some reason he is slightly under 6'2" - Warren Moon was only 6' like Brees while Russell Wilson is 5'11". Another guy that made Pro Bowls for 3 different play off teams (Garcia) was only 6' as well. He'll be ite.
When Oakland drafted Derek Carr near the top of round 2, they protected the investment by improving their offensive line and later adding WR Amari Cooper in round 1 as well as former 1st round WR Michael Crabtree via free agency. They also drafted Khalil Mack in round 1 to improve their edge rush the same year they took Carr in round 2. We could have drafted both guys in that 2014 draft. We can do something similar to what Oakland did, with our choice being edge rusher #1 and QB at #12 vrs QB #1 and edge rusher at #12. Since the draft seems deeper at edge rusher than QB, it encourages me to keep more of an open mind about Trubisky at #1.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
No, its just that the only negative they have to say about Trubisky is "he didn't have that many starts". And that's it.
That's pretty much my biggest/only worry with Trubisky about this 1st overall pick. This collaterally envelopes reading progressions against much more complicated defenses ahead (ie; going from reading Wake Forest to New England). Trubisky has some great qualities I already specified some 6-8 weeks ago when I said I understood why you liked him. He's not being ranked as the #1 QB by accident in various places. I DO like the kid but that doesn't mean I shouldn't nit-pick at #1. Saying I see him as equitable to Derek Carr is not an insult at all. Derek Carr would be the top ranked QB of this class while he was a 2nd round QB in his class. We have about 3 months to decide on which pick of the litter we like best so why hurry into 1 corner?
When Cardale Jones was only 3 starts old - he looked a lot more intriguing for NFL teams than he did when he played his way back into a backup role the next season. The "Fail for Cardale" parade never reached the 2nd block.
I've watched a lot of film of Garrett in the last week and I'm not joining the hype. Yes, when he's not being blocked - he can close on a QB or make TFLs for a loss in a hurry. And he'll test like Courtney Brown and Mike Mamula at the Underwear Olympics in Indy. In the NFL, he'll face Left Tackles and get chipped constantly. War is a huge Aggies fan that recently posted he'd like us to draft Foster 1st.
Allen isn't as "Big Sexy" with the sacks in an unselfish role in team defense on one of the highest rated defenses ever in college football. A lot of his teammates are going to be drafted in the first 2-3 rounds. What I like about him is he's flexible enough to play any technique exceptionally well while maintaining a pad height for superior leverage in the trench wars. Best of all, his head is always up so he finds the football and makes the tackle at first contact. He's a more compact version of Richard Seymour, who came in handy back when NE had so many injuries up front that BB had to switch for a 43 to a 34. Right now, Allen or Foster is my favorite pick at #1.
When Cardale Jones was only 3 starts old - he looked a lot more intriguing for NFL teams than he did when he played his way back into a backup role the next season. The "Fail for Cardale" parade never reached the 2nd block.
I've watched a lot of film of Garrett in the last week and I'm not joining the hype. Yes, when he's not being blocked - he can close on a QB or make TFLs for a loss in a hurry. And he'll test like Courtney Brown and Mike Mamula at the Underwear Olympics in Indy. In the NFL, he'll face Left Tackles and get chipped constantly. War is a huge Aggies fan that recently posted he'd like us to draft Foster 1st.
Allen isn't as "Big Sexy" with the sacks in an unselfish role in team defense on one of the highest rated defenses ever in college football.
First... thank God Shotgun did not declare a year earlier as he should have. Had he "Fail for Cardale" chants would still be echoing around Public Square...
We are very close on Trubs... see the tools; question the resume.
I do still agree that Allen is the safer, the higher floor pick, but I am evermore drawn to Garrett's ceiling. I am very curious to see what his bench rep count is at the "Underwear Olympics" (I loved that one...) to see what arm strength level he has been operating at. I feel I already know his lower body is of no concern.
Like you, I suspect, I am not seeing a great deal of PassRush tech displayed, or at least not a wide variety of moves, but I see tech continually in his RunD. Where you see him "tied up", I often see him stacking the OT honoring run first. I discussed the assignment aspect of my view with a couple of our resident Ags back in season. Much as you describe Allen's unselfish play, I saw (see) the same in Myles' tape... him filling assignments and not free-lancing. Could he shed his stacks better? Yes... thus my upper body strength question.
If he posts 25+ reps, my concern will grow. If he posts 20 or less, not so much as he has a "can add mass" look. Pass rush tech? Would love to see even more than I have, but as is often the case with superior athletes, and that Myles is one is undeniable, they tend to rely on their superiority. But he already has the most difficult tech in his arsenal: the speed-rush's, deep-dip when turning the corner... and I have seen it start with a quick rip to keep the OT's outside arm up and away from him.
One thing we all have to bear in mind when evaluating, and perhaps drafting, an Edge rusher is that even the best fail to deliver far more than they succeed. And I am including hurries in that generalized tally.
As for his getting chipped... while I agree it will happen, I do not see that as a negative. If teams have to game plan help for who should be their best PassPro OL, then that's a win before we take the field. Just as it is for HOU when Watt plays... or DNV for Miller... or...
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I think the browns are going to try and do what they can to fix the QB spot but they are not going to force it.
@boo-radley said:
I dont know what you guys think, but I am not impressed with Andy Luck. True, he had a tough act to follow, but he hasnt lived up to the hype.
I've been thinking on and off about Luck for a while now. Here's my take...
I think Luck did live up to the hype as a rookie. Even seen as the prospect of the decade, he really took the league by storm as a rookie. There was always that proviso tagged on... "as a rookie." As in, "Sure he threw 18 INTs, but he was a rookie and led his team to 11 wins."
And in year 2 he improved cutting his INTs in half while increasing both his completion rate and his TD count. The wins did not rise, but "that was the team letting him down. They were not as explosive as they've been."
Year 3 brought his TD explosion in a third 11-win season. "Sure his INTs popped as well, but he was carrying the team."
Year 4? Injury limits him to 7 games, but when he played it was a total regression to his rookie stats... "but the team sucked."
5? Recovery... but still not back to his peak, 3rd season showing... "but the team still sucks."
Bottom line:
Luck regressed... for whatever reasons, he regressed. And he came out as the prospect who was going to, and early on did, improve year after year after year... until he did not.
So I think he did satisfy "the hype(d)" up expectations initially. He simply has not followed through and sustained let alone continued to raise his own "bar" five years running.
I'd still take him...
I think the browns are going to try and do what they can to fix the QB spot but they are not going to force it.
And that is the key...
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@boo-radley said:
Pats want a 1st and another relatively high pick.
Asking ain't getting...
@boo-radley said:
There must be a franchise QB in this draft that people are over looking.
Russell Wilson was passed over.
More than likely there is. May well be Trubs... may be Kelly... may be Dobbs... or ???
Few drafts go by without at least one emerging.
@boo-radley said:
There must be a franchise QB in this draft that people are over looking.
Not necessarily...
Few drafts go by without at least one emerging.
Every few....to be exact....
5 times in the last 15 drafts there have been zero franchise qb's....which is once every 3 drafts.....33%.....once every few....
2013-10-7-6-2.....plus a few years where the franchise QB might be considered questionable......2011-5-3....
Based on the above....Id say we are due to have a no franchise draft.....
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If we don't take Trubisky #1 overall, we will regret it. We didn't tank this season to draft a DL #1. The common denominator on all final 4 teams is a great QB. I cant name one DL on any of the final 4 teams. Stop with the only one season of play BS, it's not his fault that Marquise was lights out playing QB for UNC until he graduated. If MT played a few more seasons he would have been hands down consensus #1 overall pick. I base this opinion on watching this kid grow up from the time he was 6yrs old. He will become the next best QB in the NFL, not his rookie year but in the future. If it happens on someone else's team, I'll be sick. If we pass on MT watch the stoolers jump up and take him #2 then we will live in football misery for another decade.
We did not tank for a DL best QB available has been the plan all along.
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If we don't take Trubisky #1 overall, we will regret it. We didn't tank this season to draft a DL #1. The common denominator on all final 4 teams is a great QB. I cant name one DL on any of the final 4 teams. Stop with the only one season of play BS, it's not his fault that Marquise was lights out playing QB for UNC until he graduated. If MT played a few more seasons he would have been hands down consensus #1 overall pick. I base this opinion on watching this kid grow up from the time he was 6yrs old. He will become the next best QB in the NFL, not his rookie year but in the future. If it happens on someone else's team, I'll be sick. If we pass on MT watch the stoolers jump up and take him #2 then we will live in football misery for another decade.
We did not tank for a DL best QB available has been the plan all along.
If we don't take Trubisky #1 overall, we will regret it. We didn't tank this season to draft a DL #1. The common denominator on all final 4 teams is a great QB. I cant name one DL on any of the final 4 teams. Stop with the only one season of play BS, it's not his fault that Marquise was lights out playing QB for UNC until he graduated. If MT played a few more seasons he would have been hands down consensus #1 overall pick. I base this opinion on watching this kid grow up from the time he was 6yrs old. He will become the next best QB in the NFL, not his rookie year but in the future. If it happens on someone else's team, I'll be sick. If we pass on MT watch the stoolers jump up and take him #2 then we will live in football misery for another decade.
We did not tank for a DL best QB available has been the plan all along.
I suppose it's possible Joe Thomas knows less than football fans... But I'd like to think a Left Tackle protecting the blind side of QB after his 10th consecutive Pro Bowl might know more than some may want to give him credit for. Remember, he's the guy that has had to face many a Pro Bowl edge rusher twice a year from AFC North opponents frequenting playoffs so I'm guessing he understands their value.
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If we don't take Trubisky #1 overall, we will regret it. We didn't tank this season to draft a DL #1. The common denominator on all final 4 teams is a great QB. I cant name one DL on any of the final 4 teams. Stop with the only one season of play BS, it's not his fault that Marquise was lights out playing QB for UNC until he graduated. If MT played a few more seasons he would have been hands down consensus #1 overall pick. I base this opinion on watching this kid grow up from the time he was 6yrs old. He will become the next best QB in the NFL, not his rookie year but in the future. If it happens on someone else's team, I'll be sick. If we pass on MT watch the stoolers jump up and take him #2 then we will live in football misery for another decade.
We did not tank for a DL best QB available has been the plan all along.
We did not tank for a DL best QB available has been the plan all along.
The only reason we tanked is because the team sucked.....it was not the plan....
Hence, all the changes that are happening now(which dont happen when you are successful in executing your plan)....
No one plans to tank for an "unknown yet to be named player"....which is what you're kind of suggesting happened.....
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