about this forum
-
The lot of you are basically throwing shit at one another being that there is no real discussion or exchanging of ideas here.
This forum is pretty much cancer.
-
good, you learned your lesson. kudos. at least for the moment.
You're the one who rarely showed up because you couldn't gloat
over your obaMao, but you show up all the time now, to bitch about
the new guy is doing, smart off to anybody who disagrees with you,
even before he got inaugurated. "der"
-
I won't view it as an attack. You have carried yourself in a reasonable and respectful way and I appreciate it. I also appreciate your efforts to try and learn about something rather just make stuff up like some other people like to do. You raise so many points worth discussing here that I will respond inline below. First though, I'd like to ask, in the reading you've done, did you read primary sources or interpretive ones? I have always favored primary sources where possible, because it allows me to make my own conclusions, not the ones the author of the interpretive text wants me to have. Interpretation is going to be a big theme in my responses below, too. I apologize if I am long-winded but I hope you will take the time to read them.
I'll try to explain why I mistrust Islam. Please don't view this as an attack because I'm able to diffetentiate individuals from institutions.
No worries. I appreciate your honest dialog.
Unlike some of the people here I've bothered to read up on Islam to some degree because I rather like history and so I like to know the context of historic periods such as the Abbasid and umayyed caliphates and the crusades.
Excellent, I love history too. I took history courses in college. Of most relevance here was History of the Crusades and History of World Religions. In any case, viewing Islam through a solely historic lens means you will observe the behaviors of people and nations. These behaviors are not always religiously motivated, and even when they are, we can only attribute the behaviors to their interpretations of their religion. What you won't get at in a direct manner is an understanding of the belief system that exists in the Qu'ran itself.
So I know that Islam allows for tolerance but it's largely up to whoever is in charge interpreting the Quran and Hadith.
Interpretation is the keyword here. There are many ways to interpret the Quran, and that does pose a serious challenge, because it isn't a single "type" of text. Imagine someone combined a memoir with a self-help guide with some law book. That's kind of what you are getting with it. Just because the memoir parts of it recount some of the events that occurred doesn't mean that those stories were meant to guide behavior in perpetuity. Yet this is how people like Daesh manipulate information to try and justify their actions.
Now here's the important point. Their have been many interpretations of the Quran, but Saudi Arabia has used it's position, being the lands where the religion was born and where pilgrims travel to, to dominate the 'interpretation market' and push out other more mainstream interpretations like those that come out of Al-Azhar University in Cairo (another major source of interpretation. Also, see this link). It is also the same country where Wahhabism, which you probably know is one of the most conservative interpretations out there along with Salafism. Thus, they've used their position to proliferate their views. If you have ever opened a Quran, you will see that often every page is accompanied by commentary by whoever is publishing that edition. They are not allowed to change the original text, but they can guide how the reader interprets it with their footnotes. Needless to say, Wahabi guidance has been, in my opinion, a big detriment to the Muslim world.
Fortunately, there are interpretations out there that are counter to Wahabiism that are gaining popularity. In fact, the Quran I own is published by the authors of this interpretation, one that has the Saudi's pissed off ( a fact that makes this interpretation all the more credible, in my opinion). Here's a great article on the subject as well as some of the stuff I touched on above:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/29/the-american-quran-pissing-off-the-saudis.html
There's also dhimmitude and jizya.
Nobody is practicing these concepts anymore, except for maybe Daesh. This is a place where the Muslim world has universally modernized. I would not hold a negative view of Christians for witch trials and the Spanish Inquisition because those practices were abandoned. I always like to remind people that Islam is a younger religion than Christianity and has not had 2017 years to reform. It's been around for about 1400 years. When Christianity was 1400 years old, we had things like the Spanish Inquisition that I mentioned above.
Islam worries me because over the various empires there's a constant: it's always ISLAMIC rule they're after. When Napoleon conquered most of Europe he didn't do it for the glory of Christ or to advance Christianity he did it for the oldest reasons: power, to be king. Hitler had his own nefarious motivations but religion was not one of them. Interestingly Hitler was said to have admired the aggressiveness of Islam, the way it rewarded war and was spread at the point of the sword and was said to have felt it would suit the German temperament.
I think its a bit of a simplification to say that the motivations are purely religious. You have a desert people with limited resources trying to grow. I have always believed that war, regardless of the lipstick someone puts on it, is about acquisition of resources. In my historical studies, I encountered plenty of accounts of minority populations of various Caliphates expressing their preference for being in the Muslim Empire because they said they were treated better than under Christians. No doubt, there were others who felt the opposite, too.
So though this is long and rambling I hope it gives some insight as to why I take a din view of Islam and why I distrust it. I dislike it for the reasons Hitler admired it. Where Islam rules it is the enemy of freedom and human rights. I can't accept so oppressive a doctrine that it literally means "submission".Regarding freedom and human rights, there are a many quotes from the Quran that I can point to that disagree with your point of view. I am not saying that Muslims haven't violated human rights and freedom, but show me a group of people that hasn't. I'm saying that if they were following their religion to the letter of the law, they wouldn't be doing that. These are things you will not encounter if your studies have approached this topic from a purely historical point of view. In the first days of the religion, two of the first acts under Islam in regards to human rights was to outlaw female infanticide and to give women property rights. These were revolutionary occurrences in the Arabian peninsula in the 600s AD. If you've ever observed the Muslim pilgrimage, there is a reason everyone wheres exactly the same white clothes. It's a symbol of the equality of human beings in the eyes of God. If you've seen the movie Malcolm X, I believe he touches on this.
Regarding the meaning of the word Islam. A quick fact about Arabic. Arabic words have what you could call three-consonant roots. In the case of the word "Islam", this root is SLM (iSLaM). Words that mean the same or similar things will all contain this three-consonant root. So, Islam does mean "submission" but not in the context you are using it, and it also means "peace". It does not mean that Muslims should run around forcing people into submission. Their is a Quranic quote that says "There is no compulsion in religion," meaning that you can not force someone to become Muslim. So the kind of submission that the word Islam does mean is to "willingly submit one's will to God so that they may find inner peace". This is a personal decision, not one to be forced on someone, because otherwise, it would not lead to inner peace.
There is a correlational misunderstanding of the term 'jihad'. The word primarily means "to conduct an internal struggle to better one's soul." That means through praying and doing good deeds and staying away from bad ones. The "holy war" meaning is the secondary meaning, and even in that case, it's only to be used in terms of a defensive struggle to defend one's homeland. Needless to say, Daesh and Wahabiism have done a good job of screwing that up.
I see that some Muslims are trying to modernize the religion to make it compatible with 21st century values and I support that but there's a stumbling block: the queran and Hadith are to be taken literally, as the literal word of God, and unfortunately they are rooted firmly in 7th century values with no way to update them for the modern era without rebuking the literal word of God.
This comes down to interpretation again. If someone takes a 7th century interpretation, they will have 7th century values. If they take a 21st century interpretation(as I do, and as the Qu'ran I linked above does), you'll come out with 21st century values. It is no surprise to me that the 21st century Quran is coming out of America. I have always believed that it is America that can save the soul of Islam from Wahabiism's 7th century view. It is my view that if one takes a 7th century interpretation of the Quran, you will come away finding a huge number of contradictions. If you take a more modern view, there are fewer contradictions.
You are correct that the Quran are the word of God as viewed by Muslims, but incorrect in believing that the Hadith are. The Hadith are a collection of things that Muslims believe Mohammed said or did. It's an unfortunate fact that many Muslims do regard them on the same level as the Quran, so I can't fault you for not knowing the difference. There is a movement called "Quran alone" in the Muslim world that completely rejects the Hadith because a) the Quran states that it is the only source of guidance that Muslims need, and
the Hadith contain things that contradict the Quran, and c) many of the Hadith come from dubious sources. My personal view is it is fine to follow a Hadith so long as it is consistent with what's in the Quran (which begs the question, why do you need the Hadith at all, then?). Therefore ISIS are not only Muslims - they are the purest Muslims living by the literal word of God.
This couldn't be further from the truth. In the Quran, God told people not to commit suicide, yet they strap on bombs and blow themselves up. God said "there is no compulsion in religion" yet they force people to follow them at the point of a gun. God said if you kill an innocent, it's as if you've killed all mankind, yet they kill innocents every single day. It is again, a worse-than-Wahabi interpretation of the Quran that these scum use to justify their actions.
I've no issue with modernized Muslims in America as long as America remains secular and American values and law are always always always placed before Islamic considerations like Sharia and the Constitution always takes precedence over the 'word of god' whether it be the gospel or the Quran.On this we can agree 100%. What I wish America would do is support the modernization movements so that they can become the principle interpretation and counter the influence of Wahabiism. Perhaps we are seeing that to some extent since it is an American publish, Harper Collins, that published the Quran I mentioned above. As a Muslim-American, I personally find American values and law to be very compatible with my interpretation of my religion, so there is no conflict for me.
Anyway, thank you for having this dialog. I really appreciate it. I hope you will take a moment to read the link I shared above.
I won't view it as an attack. You have carried yourself in a reasonable and respectful way and I appreciate it. I also appreciate your efforts to try and learn about something rather just make stuff up like some other people like to do. You raise so many points worth discussing here that I will respond inline below. First though, I'd like to ask, in the reading you've done, did you read primary sources or interpretive ones? I have always favored primary sources where possible, because it allows me to make my own conclusions, not the ones the author of the interpretive text wants me to have. Interpretation is going to be a big theme in my responses below, too. I apologize if I am long-winded but I hope you will take the time to read them.
I did read it and found it interesting although there's many fundamentalists attacking it. That must be a good thing, I suppose. Off-topic, as a writer are you familiar with Neal Gaiman's Sandman series? I was reading some old trade paperbacks and I came across a really neat story centered in Baghdad during Haroun Al-Raschid's (Aaron the good? Is that an acceptable translation?) reign as Caliph called Ramadan. Definitely worth a read.
You mentioned Athiesm before and I wanted to point out I'm not an athiest either. I consider myself an Agnostic. I don't know what happens after and I don't consider myself qualified to act as if I do. If there is a god, I figure being a generally good person and doing the right thing the majority of the time will win him/her/it over and if it decides that I'm fucked because I didn't do confession or ate meat on Friday or ate pork or didn't pray to mecca, then it is probably an asshole anyway. I hope the Hindu karmic wheel business is correct because honestly, even as I get older and more beat down in life I still think it's pretty cool and I wouldn't mind doing it all over again.
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind... -
Some of these guys on here, as I'm sure you well know, are never going to be worth having any sort of theological discussions with. Even though I don't believe any religious doctrine I find all of them interesting and worthy of discussion in their own right.
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind... -
when os visited before, rarely, nobody could have been more respectful to him.
but then, he came back loaded for bear because his obamao's agenda
was toast, and he was pouting, po'd that Trump won.
too bad. I liked the other os that wasn't bitching and going off the deep end
with insults because I disagreed with him about the ottoman empire.
you would have thought somebody snuck up behind him and whacked him
with a two by four or something. It isn't just os, though. The left is
acting out like che and his cohorts.
At least they aren't bombing buildings or anything like os's obamao's friends, bill ayers and
bernadine dorn.
-
Maybe, just maybe, you should look at the common denominator here and wonder if everyone is really a bitchy pouty attacker out to get ol' gee-whiz Cal, or if maybe you're over the top and it is ridiculous.
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind... -
or maybe, you could understand that what I say is true - I was very respectful
to os in the past. But now that he comes back because he is on the attack
bitchy mode, I ran afoul of his arrogance over the stupid ottoman empire.
I just didn't bs it, I provided links all over the place, after he sat on a tack
or something over his higgardly losing.
-
I laugh at most of these so called threats or insults. Just hot air is all t hey are. If you take them seriously or are offended, get the fuck out or don't read them to begin with. I'm set in my viewpoints, and if you don't like them, don't read them.
I laugh at most of these so called threats or insults. Just hot air is all t hey are. If you take them seriously or are offended, get the fuck out or don't read them to begin with. I'm set in my viewpoints, and if you don't like them, don't read them.
You're completely full of shit. Here's a refresher for anyone reading...awhile back Diehard said he'd like to catch me at a brownsboard party or something and give me a really long deep and sloppy blowjob with a generous reach around, or something along those lines.Anyway... i said fuck that it'll be the last thing you ever do on this planet. DH "immediately" ran like a school girl to zombo to get me suspended. So pls no one take DH seriously, he's a pussy boy and I have proof of it now.
-
I don't really accept anything you say is true. Because you are a hyper-partisan and everything you say is filtered through that. It's like you don't have any sort of life outside of political victimhood and everything is either evil liberal nazis or heroic conservative lumberjacks or something. I'm not a liberal. I think I've made that clear many times. But then again, I'm not a super partisan republican either. If you continue to think like that I honestly don't know what there is left to talk to you about. I can't, and neither can most rational people, deal with a gloating partisan cheese-eater. You attack attack attack and then whine about how you're being attacked. It's ridiculous, but then that's just who you are, I suppose.
-
.OBF, when obama instituted his restriction...on one country....was it done so abruptly that people landing on US soil who had valid entry papers already squared away, were forced to turn around?
Trump knee jeked this. And that to me, precisely because i feel its a valid idea, is unacceptable and nearly worthy of impeachment. He ruined this idea by making it hyper partisan and frankly smacking of racism and/or religious prejudice. The fact he had to make a punlic statement saying this wasnt a muslim ban...means someone apprised him of that land mine he just stepped on. Thsts why i was astounded at what giuliani did.
How about the Cubans he stranded his last week in office?
.
How about the Cubans he stranded his last week in office?
You mean that? So he ended the practice of allowing Cubans to stay in the U.S as soon as they get one dry foot on land...something the right has always been against ???
-
I won't view it as an attack. You have carried yourself in a reasonable and respectful way and I appreciate it. I also appreciate your efforts to try and learn about something rather just make stuff up like some other people like to do. You raise so many points worth discussing here that I will respond inline below. First though, I'd like to ask, in the reading you've done, did you read primary sources or interpretive ones? I have always favored primary sources where possible, because it allows me to make my own conclusions, not the ones the author of the interpretive text wants me to have. Interpretation is going to be a big theme in my responses below, too. I apologize if I am long-winded but I hope you will take the time to read them.
I did read it and found it interesting although there's many fundamentalists attacking it. That must be a good thing, I suppose. Off-topic, as a writer are you familiar with Neal Gaiman's Sandman series? I was reading some old trade paperbacks and I came across a really neat story centered in Baghdad during Haroun Al-Raschid's (Aaron the good? Is that an acceptable translation?) reign as Caliph called Ramadan. Definitely worth a read.
You mentioned Athiesm before and I wanted to point out I'm not an athiest either. I consider myself an Agnostic. I don't know what happens after and I don't consider myself qualified to act as if I do. If there is a god, I figure being a generally good person and doing the right thing the majority of the time will win him/her/it over and if it decides that I'm fucked because I didn't do confession or ate meat on Friday or ate pork or didn't pray to mecca, then it is probably an asshole anyway. I hope the Hindu karmic wheel business is correct because honestly, even as I get older and more beat down in life I still think it's pretty cool and I wouldn't mind doing it all over again.
I did read it and found it interesting although there's many fundamentalists attacking it. That must be a good thing, I suppose. Off-topic, as a writer are you familiar with Neal Gaiman's Sandman series? I was reading some old trade paperbacks and I came across a really neat story centered in Baghdad during Haroun Al-Raschid's (Aaron the good? Is that an acceptable translation?) reign as Caliph called Ramadan. Definitely worth a read.
You mentioned Athiesm before and I wanted to point out I'm not an athiest either. I consider myself an Agnostic. I don't know what happens after and I don't consider myself qualified to act as if I do. If there is a god, I figure being a generally good person and doing the right thing the majority of the time will win him/her/it over and if it decides that I'm fucked because I didn't do confession or ate meat on Friday or ate pork or didn't pray to mecca, then it is probably an asshole anyway. I hope the Hindu karmic wheel business is correct because honestly, even as I get older and more beat down in life I still think it's pretty cool and I wouldn't mind doing it all over again.
Yes, the extremists have also attacked other progressive movements in the Muslim world. "If extremists hate it, it is probably good", is a good barometer to use. Fortunately, it is harder for them to attack movements that take root in America, which is why I feel fortunate to be here, free to practice my religion the way I want.
I haven't read the Sandman series though I have heard of it. Your translation of Haroun Al-Rashid's name is close, but Rashid means more literally "rightly-guided." As a student of history you probably know who he was in real life. In any case, a weird thing happened when I started writing fiction... I became more interested in reading non-fiction. I guess I've learned how the sausage is made so sometimes it is harder for me to turn off my writer brain and just enjoy a work of fiction.
I apologize for assuming you were an atheist. I thought I read that you said you were a while ago. In any case, I can make the argument that by Quranic standards an agnostic wouldn't be condemned to hell, but I would probably be in the minority in holding that opinion. Once again, It's all a matter of interpretation, but two things regarding this are pretty clear: The Quran says only God knows what is in people's hearts and it is not for people to judge others in their afterlife fate, and that God cares most about people's deeds. I hate to say this but I will: Islam's biggest enemies have been many of the people who follow it. Even if you take the extremists out of the equation, I have found many Muslims focus on the most trivial aspects of faith, like whether or not meat from certain countries is halal or not, while not caring a damn about more important matters of justice and common courtesy.
-
Some of these guys on here, as I'm sure you well know, are never going to be worth having any sort of theological discussions with. Even though I don't believe any religious doctrine I find all of them interesting and worthy of discussion in their own right.
Some of these guys on here, as I'm sure you well know, are never going to be worth having any sort of theological discussions with. Even though I don't believe any religious doctrine I find all of them interesting and worthy of discussion in their own right.
That's why I've put them on ignore. I know some people here call that the "pussy" way out, but I really don't give a rat's ass.
I find this forum a lot more enjoyable when my eyes aren't subject to their garbage. -
I also read quite a bit of non-fiction as well, although I confess my library is more fiction than non. I typically spend more time on the internet trying to learn things but if I find a subject interesting enough, history and technology mostly, I'll read about it in a more analog fashion. Anyhow If you ever are so inclined I'd highly recommend Sandman. It's very literary minded. Not what you'd expect from a comic book at all, although it doesn't hit it's stride until book 2. Ramadan is in book 6,
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind... -
Some of these guys on here, as I'm sure you well know, are never going to be worth having any sort of theological discussions with. Even though I don't believe any religious doctrine I find all of them interesting and worthy of discussion in their own right.
That's why I've put them on ignore. I know some people here call that the "pussy" way out, but I really don't give a rat's ass.
I find this forum a lot more enjoyable when my eyes aren't subject to their garbage.That's why I've put them on ignore. I know some people here call that the "pussy" way out, but I really don't give a rat's ass.
I find this forum a lot more enjoyable when my eyes aren't subject to their garbage.liberal sissy translation:
"I only came here to stay because I want to bitch about Trump and couldn't explain my obaMao sombeitch,
and raise hell"
-
I am not above personally attacking people from time to time so I don't have anyone on ignore. I think part of the beauty of this board is that it's really the wild west of internet forums. If I had, say, diehard on ignore I wouldn't be able to dump all over him.
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind... -
To be fair I'm much more (and I do mean much more) worried about Mexico than Muslims. The shit Mexicans do with complete abandon make ISIS look like pretty reasonable guys. Complete disregard for humanity down there and they can just stroll over the border any time they want. I won't regale you with the filthy details but if you were inclined you could easily find the most violent, horrific, disgusting examples of humanity on certain sites and they're all Mexicans. If liberals were forced to watch this stuff for a few minutes they might revise their opinion of Trump's wall plan.
To be fair I'm much more (and I do mean much more) worried about Mexico than Muslims. The shit Mexicans do with complete abandon make ISIS look like pretty reasonable guys. Complete disregard for humanity down there and they can just stroll over the border any time they want. I won't regale you with the filthy details but if you were inclined you could easily find the most violent, horrific, disgusting examples of humanity on certain sites and they're all Mexicans. If liberals were forced to watch this stuff for a few minutes they might revise their opinion of Trump's wall plan.
I presume you're speaking of the Cartels. Such as the ME(Mexican Mafia) and organizations of their ilk. It's surprising more violence hasn't spilled over our boarders.
As far as Islam my own experiences with people of that faith compel me to disagree with the President's and some of your assessments. I met teachers, doctors, lawyers, and business people that want the same things we as Americans of many faiths want. A safe environment for themselves and their families. Some of these same people served me and my unit as interpreters.
Some of which rendered aid to wounded soldiers which bought time and saved lives. I don't think these are the kind ofpeople we should be denying entry into our country.
These are people that should be easily vetted and the ban should not be necessary. With that said I want to see how long this ban will last and how long this vetting process will take to get off the ground.
-
Cysko is an equal-opportunity bitcher-atter. I'm fine with that. I deserve it
once in a while.....
-
I also read quite a bit of non-fiction as well, although I confess my library is more fiction than non. I typically spend more time on the internet trying to learn things but if I find a subject interesting enough, history and technology mostly, I'll read about it in a more analog fashion. Anyhow If you ever are so inclined I'd highly recommend Sandman. It's very literary minded. Not what you'd expect from a comic book at all, although it doesn't hit it's stride until book 2. Ramadan is in book 6,
I also read quite a bit of non-fiction as well, although I confess my library is more fiction than non. I typically spend more time on the internet trying to learn things but if I find a subject interesting enough, history and technology mostly, I'll read about it in a more analog fashion. Anyhow If you ever are so inclined I'd highly recommend Sandman. It's very literary minded. Not what you'd expect from a comic book at all, although it doesn't hit it's stride until book 2. Ramadan is in book 6,
Okay, I will put it on my reading list.
Also, I just wanted to share this with you, too. I am definitely not trying to convert you to anything, just wanted to show another website that shows interpretations in action that are compatible with American values.
http://www.islamforpeace.org/index.html
I am not above personally attacking people from time to time so I don't have anyone on ignore. I think part of the beauty of this board is that it's really the wild west of internet forums. If I had, say, diehard on ignore I wouldn't be able to dump all over him.
To each their own! So far, at least with Cal, it seems like putting him on ignore irritated him more than anything else I've ever said to him. "If he hates it, it's probably good."
I know Diehard doesn't care, and that's fine with me, too. I'm perfectly happy if we both pretend the other doesn't exist.
-
To be fair I'm much more (and I do mean much more) worried about Mexico than Muslims. The shit Mexicans do with complete abandon make ISIS look like pretty reasonable guys. Complete disregard for humanity down there and they can just stroll over the border any time they want. I won't regale you with the filthy details but if you were inclined you could easily find the most violent, horrific, disgusting examples of humanity on certain sites and they're all Mexicans. If liberals were forced to watch this stuff for a few minutes they might revise their opinion of Trump's wall plan.
I presume you're speaking of the Cartels. Such as the ME(Mexican Mafia) and organizations of their ilk. It's surprising more violence hasn't spilled over our boarders.
As far as Islam my own experiences with people of that faith compel me to disagree with the President's and some of your assessments. I met teachers, doctors, lawyers, and business people that want the same things we as Americans of many faiths want. A safe environment for themselves and their families. Some of these same people served me and my unit as interpreters.
Some of which rendered aid to wounded soldiers which bought time and saved lives. I don't think these are the kind ofpeople we should be denying entry into our country.
These are people that should be easily vetted and the ban should not be necessary. With that said I want to see how long this ban will last and how long this vetting process will take to get off the ground.
I presume you're speaking of the Cartels. Such as the ME(Mexican Mafia) and organizations of their ilk. It's surprising more violence hasn't spilled over our boarders.
As far as Islam my own experiences with people of that faith compel me to disagree with the President's and some of your assessments. I met teachers, doctors, lawyers, and business people that want the same things we as Americans of many faiths want. A safe environment for themselves and their families. Some of these same people served me and my unit as interpreters.
Some of which rendered aid to wounded soldiers which bought time and saved lives. I don't think these are the kind ofpeople we should be denying entry into our country.
These are people that should be easily vetted and the ban should not be necessary. With that said I want to see how long this ban will last and how long this vetting process will take to get off the ground.
Excellent post. Thanks HUGELY for your service, Marcus. The interpreters were a temporary injustice, but one that couldn't
be avoided, unless you telegraph the temporary halt to reexamine vetting. That would lead to what
we witness on the border, a huge increase in traffic. And the FBI already says they can't vett incoming immigrants fast enough.
Those interpreters, the good folks with green cards, etc... those problems were/are being resolved asap.
It's tough to close pandora's box after being opened. And, the FBI? said there are isis investigations "in all fifty states",
which reportedly is an overstatement..... We desperately, somehow, do not want to end up like Germany
and Sweden, to name two. What is dangerous is the dirty politics being played over any real or contrived issue from the losers
of the pres election.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login