QB Questions
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Are we sure we aren't already doofuses?
Well, our past draft record track record would say so Mark. Quinn, We-done, and Manziel- all busts. Just one (I hope) final thought. I should know better than to argue with Flugles when he's on a roll, even though I think some of his come backs were mighty weak IMHO. Last year was supposed to be a "weak" qb class, & Goff and Wentz went 1-2. Pre draft 2016, this year was supposed to be a much "better" qb class, and now all of a sudden it's a "weak" class. Yeah, and now 2018 is going to be a "better" qb class. Riiight. You just have to hop on the qb carousel at some point and hope you're right. I'm way tired of the Browns shopping the 2nd and 3rd round qb bargain bin. Or hoping the second or third best qb is going to be the answer.
I really have no objection to drafting Garrett- he just better be all he's cracked up to be- and the "mediocre" qbs of 2017 better all be busts.
But here you go again anyway. Carry on...
You gotta have the last word- as always. So what part of "I'm done arguing with you." you didn't understand? ^^ This was a reply to Mark.
Last year was supposed to be a "weak" qb class, & Goff and Wentz went 1-2. Pre draft 2016, this year was supposed to be a much "better" qb class, and now all of a sudden it's a "weak" class. Yeah, and now 2018 is going to be a "better" qb class. Riiight. You just have to hop on the qb carousel at some point and hope you're right. I'm way tired of the Browns shopping the 2nd and 3rd round qb bargain bin. Or hoping the second or third best qb is going to be the answer.
At this point....it would still look like last years draft class was "weak" Goff is horrible...Wentz is just ok, nothing special at all. Prescott (obviously) had the best year but he also played on the best team and he's a mid round lightning in a bottle pick anyways that we can't ever seem to catch.
Whoever we pick at #1 needs to be an immediate impact player, whatever position he plays. If it's a QB then he needs to be out there week 1 playing the game. For christs sake, we started Weeden week 1 after we drafted him, if the guy we pick at #1 overall isn't "ready" by week 1 then he was a wasted pick.
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You gotta have the last word- as always. Tired of arguing with you.
But here you go again wanting to argue more. STFU already. I'm done watching you cry simply because I don't agree with you about the first pick. I started this thread so go somewhere else and cry at others that disagree with you.
But here you go again wanting to argue more. STFU already. I'm done watching you cry simply because I don't agree with you about the first pick. I started this thread so go somewhere else and cry at others that disagree with you.
Problem is Tom, I have seen far more people on here go all hufflepuff and act like pluperfect pedantic pricks over the fact that I and others feel that it is in the best interest of the Browns to get what we think is a franchise level QB with that first pick. A guy that I think is perhaps the best talent at that position that is likely to come out in a 3 year period.
So, what is wrong with having that opinion? Apparently, to some, they act like it is a personal affront to their existence that we think that way and that we don't agree with their personal opinion.
Could the guy be a risk? Surely he can. Could Garrett or Allen be the best thing to come out since sliced cranberries? Surely they can. Does our defense need a vast infusion of talent? Absolutely. But, again, I don't know why some on here seem to want to go all Charles Whitman over a difference of opinion.
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The problem with this argument as I've noted before is that it really is a "no shit" argument to have. No one who watches football for more than two seconds is going to argue against the fact you need to have a top-tier QB to play for a Super Bowl.
However, 2 of the last Super Bowls have been won by the #1 defense in the NFL. If the Patriots win, they are #8 this year and were #1 in scoring defense as well. Look at Atlanta, they've had the franchise guy for YEARS, Julio Jones for YEARS and had Roddy White for YEARS. The reason they made it finally to the SB is because they brought in a defensive minded HC and drafted defensive players early and often.
The point is, they took Matt Ryan in a year where he clearly was the dude. This year, Myles Garrett is clearly the dude for the Browns at #1, and none of those QBs you've listed are. I'm tired of the Browns overthinking this crap year in and year out when this year the choice is about as obvious as it gets. There's still plenty of time to trade up to get the franchise guy if they so choose.
Well said! It could also be said the only times Peyton Manning won Superbowls were when he had a decent defense in Indy and a great one in Denver. Most of the years he had great stats or an MVP caliber season - his teams never made it to the Superbowl.
Meanwhile, nobody has been passing for more yardage then Drew Brees the last few years and the Saints haven't come close to making the playoffs.
It would be nice to have a great passer like Brady and the defense that gave up the fewest points in the NFL like New England.
Well said! It could also be said the only times Peyton Manning won Superbowls were when he had a decent defense in Indy and a great one in Denver. Most of the years he had great stats or an MVP caliber season - his teams never made it to the Superbowl.
Meanwhile, nobody has been passing for more yardage then Drew Brees the last few years and the Saints haven't come close to making the playoffs.
It would be nice to have a great passer like Brady and the defense that gave up the fewest points in the NFL like New England.
Balance....great offense and great defense, absolutely are necessary. Those various dynasties that were outlined elsewhere all had that. But, again, they all had HOF caliber QBs...and that is where you have to start.
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I don't think Garrett is "fool proof", and he does have a few legitimate concerns. The thing is, he's an unbelievable physical talent, and with good defensive coaching, he could be a real powerhouse. How bad do we need somebody like that? How would the presence of an elite pass rusher affect our other players? The secondary? Opposite DE? And btw, Garrett was also stout against the run this year, and it's something he has improved on (so he is still learning, which is good). I think he's the obvious #1 pick. The only question to me is, "Is there a QB we simply HAVE to have, and we must take him #1 overall to secure his rights?" If we go QB at #1, will one of the other pass rushers be available at #12, such as Solomon or Barnett?
I don't think Garrett is "fool proof", and he does have a few legitimate concerns. The thing is, he's an unbelievable physical talent, and with good defensive coaching, he could be a real powerhouse. How bad do we need somebody like that? How would the presence of an elite pass rusher affect our other players? The secondary? Opposite DE? And btw, Garrett was also stout against the run this year, and it's something he has improved on (so he is still learning, which is good). I think he's the obvious #1 pick. The only question to me is, "Is there a QB we simply HAVE to have, and we must take him #1 overall to secure his rights?" If we go QB at #1, will one of the other pass rushers be available at #12, such as Solomon or Barnett?
Sign Chandler Jones in free agency then take Trubisky @ #1
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And now a polack prospect is playing our heart-strings...
The Mentor (Ohio) High School alum is a bit of a legend in Northeast Ohio, and here’s a quote from Trubisky that didn’t make my story: “I root for Cleveland everything. I love where I’m from. No matter what, everyone still believes in the Browns and that's so cool. It’s different being from there. Nobody knows why we love Cleveland so much unless you’re from there."
About 3/4's of the way down the page...
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I think the kid is the real deal.... picking him at one just seems
the best move. He can learn behind Kessler. Sorry, RGIII, you
seem to lack that rare quality to see the field quick enough.
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Shut up Ghoolie.
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Heartwarming Mitch.
Tell ya what, you tell everyone from draft position 2-11 that you won't play for them that you'll sit out all year...and we'll take you at #12.
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Too bad he's only 5'11"
Too bad he's only 5'11"
lol...
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And DJ chimes in...
Last year at this time, there was a lot of buzz and excitement starting to build around Carson Wentz and Jared Goff. This year, no such buzz exists about the draft's quarterback class. In talking to personnel executives last week at the Reese's Senior Bowl, I couldn't find anyone who was in love with any of the 2017 quarterback prospects.
Teams are split on Deshaun Watson -- some believe he would be a good late first- or early second-round pick, while others think he is a long-term project who should be a middle-round pick. Of course, all of these folks said they wouldn't be surprised if he went much higher than that -- however, they believe choosing him that high would be a mistake. I like the fact that he's going to throw at the NFL Scouting Combine next month and I'm anxious to see his official measurables.
I couldn't find a scout or executive who was excited about DeShone Kizer or Mitch Trubisky. When you're talking to teams that already have an established signal-caller, there's no reason for them to feed me false information. In fact, it would benefit them if these quarterbacks went early, dropping talented players at other positions into their lap. I'm sure one or more of these quarterback prospects will get hot and gather some steam as we head toward the draft. Will it be one of the three mentioned above or will we see another name emerge? Buckle up. This is going to be an interesting ride. -- Daniel Jeremiah
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Well said! It could also be said the only times Peyton Manning won Superbowls were when he had a decent defense in Indy and a great one in Denver. Most of the years he had great stats or an MVP caliber season - his teams never made it to the Superbowl.
Meanwhile, nobody has been passing for more yardage then Drew Brees the last few years and the Saints haven't come close to making the playoffs.
It would be nice to have a great passer like Brady and the defense that gave up the fewest points in the NFL like New England.
Balance....great offense and great defense, absolutely are necessary. Those various dynasties that were outlined elsewhere all had that. But, again, they all had HOF caliber QBs...and that is where you have to start.
Balance....great offense and great defense, absolutely are necessary. Those various dynasties that were outlined elsewhere all had that. But, again, they all had HOF caliber QBs...and that is where you have to start.
2 of the best QBs of all time (Joe Montana and his biggest fan - Tom Brady) were not first round QBs. Since you love tradition, Bart Starr was not either.
More recently (2016), the 4th round Dak Prescott easily outperformed #1 overall Jared Goff and #2 overall Carson Wentz. In 2014, 2nd round QB Derek Carr has outperformed these 3 first round QBs in his draft class: Blake Bortles, Johhny Manziel and Teddy B. Just to stay consistent, a few years ago - 3rd round QB Russell Wilson has outperformed the following 1st round QBs in his draft class: RG3, Ryan Tannehill, and Brandon Weeden. Then there's the 2007 draft where Jamarcus Russell was drafted #1overall while we traded up to draft Quinn in the 20s of round 1. Let's just say I've seen a lot of 1st round picks fail at QB while our setting on offense isn't exactly favorable for an inexperienced QB.
What we can do is play much better defense while making this an easier place to play QB as well. At some point in our existence here this shouldn't be easier said than done.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
I know people like to think the science for evaluating QB prospects outside of the film room has improved a ton; but I remain reluctant to join that thinking. From the Indy Combines to all the scripted workouts that follow it to the highly entertaining Gruden interviews/chalk talks - there's something pretty huge missing in all of them. NFL Defenses.
Let's take a guy like Ja-red Goff before he should have looked Sca-red behind the 5 Matadors upfront in LA. The kid actually showed gonads and guts in the pocket taking countless hits all the while he got very little help from teammates. Anyway, all the pre-draft workout criteria last off season showed him throwing without any of the following challenges he was about to see on a piss poor NFL offense:
1) Pass rushers in a faster league hurrying throws and invading intimate space of QB while challenging mechanics and releases.
2) Defensive backs with better closing speeds challenging accuracy in the NFL's world of tighter windows.
3) Above and beyond a much bigger NFL playbook, now let's add all the complicated Defensive Alignments and schemes with well disguised blitz packages that can confuse inexperienced QBs pre-snap. Now let's look at the rookie world according to Kessler who had 2 first year starters at WR outside with a veteran the size of Tom Thumb working in the slot. In a world where there's constant route adjustments to coverages/leverages - how do we know a lot of our QB hesitations weren't coming from the 1st year starters outside messing up their route adjustments? That's why a team like Oakland went out and got a seasoned veteran WR with route precision like Crabtree so he could be a consultant to the younger WRs there as well as the young QB in between series. Here comes that environment around QB thing again.
Exactly where and how was this Cleveland environment anything like the utopian pre-draft workout environments? I honestly find a lot of things I like about Trubisky so I compliment him in saying he's an equitable prospect to that of Derek Carr (who was the 4th QB taken all the way down into round 2 of his draft class). Having said that, he only started 13 games so the disappointing supply of QBs for our demand doesn't change my mind about preferring defense at #1 overall (knowing he'll be gone by #12). Joe Thomas gave a terrific summary of what happens when you miss on a 1st round QB vrs a 1st round pass rusher. That's why I've been hoping we could find a bargain later than round 1. Maybe Davis Webb is that guy or somebody else.
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Last year I thought Dak would be a great pickup.
This year I like Watson for the same reason I liked Dak-both perform when the game is on the line. Forget all the "looks like a pro" stuff. I saw what I needed to see at the end of the Natty game and I saw what I needed to see on the darling boy from Ohio at the end of the NC St. game. One performed under extreme game winning crunch time and the other fell apart. Give me a winner!
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Last year I thought Dak would be a great pickup.
This year I like Watson for the same reason I liked Dak-both perform when the game is on the line. Forget all the "looks like a pro" stuff. I saw what I needed to see at the end of the Natty game and I saw what I needed to see on the darling boy from Ohio at the end of the NC St. game. One performed under extreme game winning crunch time and the other fell apart. Give me a winner!
Last year I thought Dak would be a great pickup.
This year I like Watson for the same reason I liked Dak-both perform when the game is on the line. Forget all the "looks like a pro" stuff. I saw what I needed to see at the end of the Natty game and I saw what I needed to see on the darling boy from Ohio at the end of the NC St. game. One performed under extreme game winning crunch time and the other fell apart. Give me a winner!
I think Bill Walsh thought the same thing when Joe Montana got nitpicked all the way down to him in a mid round. And then much lesser QBs like Rick Mirer and the allegedly "Pro Ready" Brady Quinn were first round QBs. Make sense? It shouldn't.
Brandon Weeden and Derek Anderson had bionic arms but neither possessed what it took to be long term starters. I've seen plenty of Qbs entering the NFL that were told they needed to get stronger. According to Tom Brady after a rookie season where he wore blue jeans to about 13of his first 16 NFL games - BB informed him he needed to get stronger in the weight room if he wanted to make it in this league. Land ho! I read Drew Brees crediting his strength and conditioning program for the ability to morph from the QB who once tempted SD to draft a QB first overall into a Pro Bowl QB with 12 wins the year Philip Rivers held out the length of training camp.
I'm sure Kessler can improve his arm strength especially while he's working with a well respected QB guru this off season to do just that. Along the same line, I'm sure this draft will have guys that are ready to go to work on the same thing.
It's popular for people to rip on Watson and credit it to many of the same scouts out there that once hailed Brady Quinn as the most pro ready Qb of his/adjacent QB classes. We could pull up info to support sides as easily people do it in political debates.
The danger of crib sheeting a QB beyond his uniqueness to that of a Tedford system QB stereotype is that all of the teams except the one that already had Brett Favre starting were unwilling to draft him before #24 overall. Before that, the 2 guys that bucked the BYU system QB stereotype were Jim McMahon and Steve Young when guys like Gifford Nielson, Marc Wilson and Ty Detmer couldn't keep starting jobs. So when guys start telling me Watson can only be RG3 or one of the other black QBs that struggled - I like to ask why can't he become another Warren Moon, Steve McNair or Donovan McNabb? Who says? Remember when Moon was too short which also carried the stereotype of what kind of arm strength someone that size could only have? He wasn't any different than Joe Theisman (who also had to begin his career in the CFL). Same with Jeff Garcia who made Pro Bowls for 3 different NFL teams he led to playoffs. That said, when he played for environments like Cleveland and Detroit - he blended in with stink.
It's popular to predict Watson will suck just like it was to discount Prescott or Wilson. And why? Hardly anyone is coming from a pro style offense. I heard that nonsense when our FO/Chris Palmer explained they weren't comfortable counting on a QB (McNabb) coming our of a Veer Option. It's almost as if there was never any such thing as Brett Favre coming out of a very similar offense at So Miss prior to stardom in a WCO.
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Balance....great offense and great defense, absolutely are necessary. Those various dynasties that were outlined elsewhere all had that. But, again, they all had HOF caliber QBs...and that is where you have to start.
2 of the best QBs of all time (Joe Montana and his biggest fan - Tom Brady) were not first round QBs. Since you love tradition, Bart Starr was not either.
More recently (2016), the 4th round Dak Prescott easily outperformed #1 overall Jared Goff and #2 overall Carson Wentz. In 2014, 2nd round QB Derek Carr has outperformed these 3 first round QBs in his draft class: Blake Bortles, Johhny Manziel and Teddy B. Just to stay consistent, a few years ago - 3rd round QB Russell Wilson has outperformed the following 1st round QBs in his draft class: RG3, Ryan Tannehill, and Brandon Weeden. Then there's the 2007 draft where Jamarcus Russell was drafted #1overall while we traded up to draft Quinn in the 20s of round 1. Let's just say I've seen a lot of 1st round picks fail at QB while our setting on offense isn't exactly favorable for an inexperienced QB.
What we can do is play much better defense while making this an easier place to play QB as well. At some point in our existence here this shouldn't be easier said than done.
2 of the best QBs of all time (Joe Montana and his biggest fan - Tom Brady) were not first round QBs. Since you love tradition, Bart Starr was not either.
More recently (2016), the 4th round Dak Prescott easily outperformed #1 overall Jared Goff and #2 overall Carson Wentz. In 2014, 2nd round QB Derek Carr has outperformed these 3 first round QBs in his draft class: Blake Bortles, Johhny Manziel and Teddy B. Just to stay consistent, a few years ago - 3rd round QB Russell Wilson has outperformed the following 1st round QBs in his draft class: RG3, Ryan Tannehill, and Brandon Weeden. Then there's the 2007 draft where Jamarcus Russell was drafted #1overall while we traded up to draft Quinn in the 20s of round 1. Let's just say I've seen a lot of 1st round picks fail at QB while our setting on offense isn't exactly favorable for an inexperienced QB.
What we can do is play much better defense while making this an easier place to play QB as well. At some point in our existence here this shouldn't be easier said than done.
Sure, you have a few outliers in terms of franchise QBs.....but, in the history of the NFL, at least recently.....the better, franchise QBs generally get drafted early. Its just a fact.
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