QB Questions
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Personally I was underwhelmed by Winston's progress in 2016.
But back on Crow... just feels like he is going to negotiate his way into a cheap tender. One that I pray someone will beat, but we will not match as the whole RFA tender thing just seems to create too many ego bruises.
Add that while I like Crow, he is far from irreplaceable. I can see at least three Crow-ish RBs in this draft spread out in rounds 3 thru 6.
Personally I was underwhelmed by Winston's progress in 2016.
But back on Crow... just feels like he is going to negotiate his way into a cheap tender. One that I pray someone will beat, but we will not match as the whole RFA tender thing just seems to create too many ego bruises.
Add that while I like Crow, he is far from irreplaceable. I can see at least three Crow-ish RBs in this draft spread out in rounds 3 thru 6.
Here's the problem I see with losing somebody like Crow. We've invested 3 years in training him so that RB is one of the few strengths we have on offense. Giving him up not only means we make another cupboard bare; but someone else gets to celebrate his experience and talent while we create 1 more need to fill by an inexperienced rookie. If he can average 4.8 yards per carry here, I'll bet there's a lot of places he can probably average somewhere between 5 and 6 yards a carry. In fact, when both our Guards were healthy - he had a stretch of games he averaged about 6.4 yards a carry.
If this organization wants players to buy into Cleveland is going to change for the better, actions speak louder than words. Commit to those that have worked hard here like Crow. That seems like a better bridge to continuity than showing players they're just a number the FO can easily replace.
This FO has some ideal opportunities this off season to make believers out of critics and people on wait and see mode. Well, here's that juicy pitch to our FO in the batter's box. If they let Crow go, they watched a perfect strike go over the plate without even swinging at it IMO.
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You know who else had a lot of interceptions in his last season? Jameis Winston. More than Watson to be exact, and that was with one less game. Watson also threw for 16 more TDs. And whaddya know, Watson had a better completion percentage too over 110 more passes.
All this statistical analysis means nothing sometimes.
EJ Manuel last two years of college
*2011 Florida State ACC JR QB 12 203 311 65.3 2666 8.6 8.6 18 8 151.2
*2012 Florida State ACC SR QB 14 263 387 68.0 3397 8.8 8.8 23 10 156.1
Jameis Winston last tyo years of college
*2013 Florida State ACC FR QB 14 257 384 66.9 4057 10.6 11.5 40 10 184.8
*2014 Florida State ACC SO QB 13 305 467 65.3 3907 8.4 7.7 25 18 145.5
Here you can see a dramatic increase in several key statistics from Manuel to Winston.
EJ Manuel last two years of college
*2011 Florida State ACC JR QB 12 203 311 65.3 2666 8.6 8.6 18 8 151.2
*2012 Florida State ACC SR QB 14 263 387 68.0 3397 8.8 8.8 23 10 156.1
Jameis Winston last tyo years of college
*2013 Florida State ACC FR QB 14 257 384 66.9 4057 10.6 11.5 40 10 184.8
*2014 Florida State ACC SO QB 13 305 467 65.3 3907 8.4 7.7 25 18 145.5
Here you can see a dramatic increase in several key statistics from Manuel to Winston.
And you can see a dramatic increase in several key statistics from Winston to Watson. So?
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Personally I was underwhelmed by Winston's progress in 2016.
But back on Crow... just feels like he is going to negotiate his way into a cheap tender. One that I pray someone will beat, but we will not match as the whole RFA tender thing just seems to create too many ego bruises.
Add that while I like Crow, he is far from irreplaceable. I can see at least three Crow-ish RBs in this draft spread out in rounds 3 thru 6.
Personally I was underwhelmed by Winston's progress in 2016.
But back on Crow... just feels like he is going to negotiate his way into a cheap tender. One that I pray someone will beat, but we will not match as the whole RFA tender thing just seems to create too many ego bruises.
Add that while I like Crow, he is far from irreplaceable. I can see at least three Crow-ish RBs in this draft spread out in rounds 3 thru 6.
Nevertheless, he's a no-doubt franchise QB.
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Different offenses for one war. You need to find the players that elevated their program not just mantained it.
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Winning a national championship isn't elevating? Are you aware FSU is the winningestprogram in the country over the last 30 years?
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Clemson Defense
Using Football outsiders for the years Deshaun Watson and Tahj Boyd* played for Clemson
2016 (14-1) Ranked 6th in Defense
2015 (14-1) Ranked 6th in Defense
2014 (10-3) Ranked 1st in Defense
2013 (11-2) Ranked 12th in Defense
2012 (11-2) Ranked 34th in Defense
And yes of course clemson's offense was actually more effective 2013-2012 both being ranked higher than the last 2 years. -
Clemson Defense
Using Football outsiders for the years Deshaun Watson and Tahj Boyd* played for Clemson
2016 (14-1) Ranked 6th in Defense
2015 (14-1) Ranked 6th in Defense
2014 (10-3) Ranked 1st in Defense
2013 (11-2) Ranked 12th in Defense
2012 (11-2) Ranked 34th in Defense
And yes of course clemson's offense was actually more effective 2013-2012 both being ranked higher than the last 2 years.Clemson Defense
Using Football outsiders for the years Deshaun Watson and Tahj Boyd* played for Clemson
2016 (14-1) Ranked 6th in Defense
2015 (14-1) Ranked 6th in Defense
2014 (10-3) Ranked 1st in Defense
2013 (11-2) Ranked 12th in Defense
2012 (11-2) Ranked 34th in Defense
And yes of course clemson's offense was actually more effective 2013-2012 both being ranked higher than the last 2 years.
Are you aware Clemson went from being the 2nd or 3rd best team in a weaker ACC (w/ Boyd) to the best team in a stronger ACC (w/ Watson the last 2 years)? This gave them the opportunity to participate in the last 2 National Championship Games making them #2 in the Country last year and #1 this year. I'm not sold Boyd would have been able to erase a 21 point deficit against this year's Alabama team especially if he was just a JR.
Here's another thing to consider when people want to race to the conclusion Clemson's defense had to drag Watson through the last 2 National Championship Games. In their first matchup, Alabama scored 45 points while Clemson scored 40 points. Who kept that game competitive Clemson's QB or their defense? In their second matchup, Alabama scored 31 points which raised the challenge for Clemson's offense to beat that point total against the most dominant defense in college football. They scored 35 points inclusive of erasing a 21 point deficit. Clemson's Defense gave up 76 points in those 2 games to Alabama, which is asking a lot of their QB and his offense. They scored 75 points in 2 matchups vrs an Alabama defense ready to stockpile the first few rounds of the NFL draft. Watson went 28-2 as a QB in his Soph & Jr year. The only times he lost were 45-40 to Bama as a soph and 43-42 to Pitt as a Jr for those thinking a dominating defense carried Watson.
Believe it or not, the ACC had the best out of conference record and Bowl record by a huge margin. I think North Carolina was one of the only ACC teams that lost their Bowl Game so we gotta give Gipper some props for defending the strength of the ACC. When Boyd was playing QB at Clemson in the ACC, the ACC didn't do nearly as well outside of conference or in Bowl season. Don't listen to your buddy Flugel - just Google...
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FSU's total D in 2013 was #3. In 2012 it was 2. 2011 it was 4. Not sure why any of that matters.
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FSU's total D in 2013 was #3. In 2012 it was 2. 2011 it was 4. Not sure why any of that matters.
FSU's total D in 2013 was #3. In 2012 it was 2. 2011 it was 4. Not sure why any of that matters.
It doesn't too much but I appreciate you getting us that info War. FSU owned that conference until Watson was a soph and jr.
The reason I brought up the drastic improvement in the ACC out of conference record and Bowl record in 2016 is because I wanted to show Caine that Watson did take that team to another level if we factor in the conference opponents were stronger.
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FSU's total D in 2013 was #3. In 2012 it was 2. 2011 it was 4. Not sure why any of that matters.
It doesn't too much but I appreciate you getting us that info War. FSU owned that conference until Watson was a soph and jr.
The reason I brought up the drastic improvement in the ACC out of conference record and Bowl record in 2016 is because I wanted to show Caine that Watson did take that team to another level if we factor in the conference opponents were stronger.
It doesn't too much but I appreciate you getting us that info War. FSU owned that conference until Watson was a soph and jr.
The reason I brought up the drastic improvement in the ACC out of conference record and Bowl record in 2016 is because I wanted to show Caine that Watson did take that team to another level if we factor in the conference opponents were stronger.
That is not a statistically accurate statement it is an opinion. This is also why some draft sites have Watson as a high end QB and a lot of others have him in rounds 2-4. He's a good QB that played on a GREAT team. He faces the same stigma Alabama QB's face in that he doesn't HAVE to be good for his team to succeed. Like OSU QB's there has not been a good NFL QB prospect at OSU in over a decade.
My Point is if your going to look at an individual you cant look at win/loss/championships and TEAM stats to measure their performance. Watson was not a transformative player at HIS position for Clemson. Manziel was a transformative player at his position at Texas am as were Bortles,Carr,Luck,Winston,Lynch,Goff,Mariota,Wentz,Trubisky,Bridgewater,Griffin
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It doesn't too much but I appreciate you getting us that info War. FSU owned that conference until Watson was a soph and jr.
The reason I brought up the drastic improvement in the ACC out of conference record and Bowl record in 2016 is because I wanted to show Caine that Watson did take that team to another level if we factor in the conference opponents were stronger.
That is not a statistically accurate statement it is an opinion. This is also why some draft sites have Watson as a high end QB and a lot of others have him in rounds 2-4. He's a good QB that played on a GREAT team. He faces the same stigma Alabama QB's face in that he doesn't HAVE to be good for his team to succeed. Like OSU QB's there has not been a good NFL QB prospect at OSU in over a decade.
My Point is if your going to look at an individual you cant look at win/loss/championships and TEAM stats to measure their performance. Watson was not a transformative player at HIS position for Clemson. Manziel was a transformative player at his position at Texas am as were Bortles,Carr,Luck,Winston,Lynch,Goff,Mariota,Wentz,Trubisky,Bridgewater,Griffin
That is not a statistically accurate statement it is an opinion. This is also why some draft sites have Watson as a high end QB and a lot of others have him in rounds 2-4. He's a good QB that played on a GREAT team. He faces the same stigma Alabama QB's face in that he doesn't HAVE to be good for his team to succeed. Like OSU QB's there has not been a good NFL QB prospect at OSU in over a decade.
That the team elevated to new heights during the time Watson was the starter is undeniable. We can argue about whether he was the cause of it or not (recruiting rankings say yes), but it is a fact.
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That is not a statistically accurate statement it is an opinion. This is also why some draft sites have Watson as a high end QB and a lot of others have him in rounds 2-4. He's a good QB that played on a GREAT team. He faces the same stigma Alabama QB's face in that he doesn't HAVE to be good for his team to succeed. Like OSU QB's there has not been a good NFL QB prospect at OSU in over a decade.
That the team elevated to new heights during the time Watson was the starter is undeniable. We can argue about whether he was the cause of it or not (recruiting rankings say yes), but it is a fact.
That the team elevated to new heights during the time Watson was the starter is undeniable. We can argue about whether he was the cause of it or not (recruiting rankings say yes), but it is a fact.
While Watson was the starter Clemson did get better but it was not because of QB play as indicated by the stats. the biggest change during watsons tenure at clemson was the Defense. QB Play remained unchanged to slightly worse from the years prior.
If you can provide statistics otherwise let me know.If it pertains to QB play of course. ACC this and conference records! and Look at the alabama games! are not measurements of QB Play.
I'm not saying anything other draft experts are not saying about Watson. in all honesty i don't think he will be able to transfer well into the nfl but he has the potential too. if I were the browns i would go as high as the 1st pick in the 3rd round and see if he develops into a QB.
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Just make me the fucking quarerteback.
Before games I'll stop by to eat a few burgers and drink a few brews and orange shit before I have to head off to the stadium to throw my 4 TD passes. In games where the other team is moving the ball, I'll play two way and slobberknock a few of their players. They will be heading off the field, wiping away a 6 inch snotdrop before telling their coach they don't want to play anymore.
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It doesn't too much but I appreciate you getting us that info War. FSU owned that conference until Watson was a soph and jr.
The reason I brought up the drastic improvement in the ACC out of conference record and Bowl record in 2016 is because I wanted to show Caine that Watson did take that team to another level if we factor in the conference opponents were stronger.
That is not a statistically accurate statement it is an opinion. This is also why some draft sites have Watson as a high end QB and a lot of others have him in rounds 2-4. He's a good QB that played on a GREAT team. He faces the same stigma Alabama QB's face in that he doesn't HAVE to be good for his team to succeed. Like OSU QB's there has not been a good NFL QB prospect at OSU in over a decade.
My Point is if your going to look at an individual you cant look at win/loss/championships and TEAM stats to measure their performance. Watson was not a transformative player at HIS position for Clemson. Manziel was a transformative player at his position at Texas am as were Bortles,Carr,Luck,Winston,Lynch,Goff,Mariota,Wentz,Trubisky,Bridgewater,Griffin
That is not a statistically accurate statement it is an opinion. This is also why some draft sites have Watson as a high end QB and a lot of others have him in rounds 2-4.
Clemson wasn't competing for National Championships until Watson was a soph and jr. That's not my opinion, it's what happened. I just gave you the scores of his only 2 losses in a 28-2 record for his soph and jr years. One loss was 45-40 to Bama and the other was 43-42 to Pitt. What looked worse in those scores, their defense or their offense?
Keep in mind, I don't want a QB in round 1 so let's not lose that in the context of our debate. I gave you Joe Montana's unsexy college TD:INT ratio and comp % in this thread. All the same stuff was being said about Montana from his lack of arm strength, to INTs to his comp % of 42,52 and 54 before SF drafted the HOF QB near the end of round 3 at #82 overall.
As for ACC's improvement overall, I heard it on ESPN radio about the out of conference record of the ACC being the best in 2016 and here's the results of Bowl season from an article on 1/3/17 (before Clemson beat Alabama in the National Championship):
2016 Conference Bowl Records
ACC 8-3
Big 12 4-2
SEC 6-6
Pac-12 3-3
Big Ten 3-7
Last but not least, when you're saying Watson will be drafted between rounds 2 and 4 - do you remember Tajh Boyd wasn't drafted until round 6? Why would that be if Boyd was so much better?
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That is not a statistically accurate statement it is an opinion. This is also why some draft sites have Watson as a high end QB and a lot of others have him in rounds 2-4.
Clemson wasn't competing for National Championships until Watson was a soph and jr. That's not my opinion, it's what happened. I just gave you the scores of his only 2 losses in a 28-2 record for his soph and jr years. One loss was 45-40 to Bama and the other was 43-42 to Pitt. What looked worse in those scores, their defense or their offense?
Keep in mind, I don't want a QB in round 1 so let's not lose that in the context of our debate. I gave you Joe Montana's unsexy college TD:INT ratio and comp % in this thread. All the same stuff was being said about Montana from his lack of arm strength, to INTs to his comp % of 42,52 and 54 before SF drafted the HOF QB near the end of round 3 at #82 overall.
As for ACC's improvement overall, I heard it on ESPN radio about the out of conference record of the ACC being the best in 2016 and here's the results of Bowl season from an article on 1/3/17 (before Clemson beat Alabama in the National Championship):
2016 Conference Bowl Records
ACC 8-3
Big 12 4-2
SEC 6-6
Pac-12 3-3
Big Ten 3-7
Last but not least, when you're saying Watson will be drafted between rounds 2 and 4 - do you remember Tajh Boyd wasn't drafted until round 6? Why would that be if Boyd was so much better?
Clemson wasn't competing for National Championships until Watson was a soph and jr. That's not my opinion, it's what happened. I just gave you the scores of his only 2 losses in a 28-2 record for his soph and jr years. One loss was 45-40 to Bama and the other was 43-42 to Pitt. What looked worse in those scores, their defense or their offense?
Keep in mind, I don't want a QB in round 1 so let's not lose that in the context of our debate. I gave you Joe Montana's unsexy college TD:INT ratio and comp % in this thread. All the same stuff was being said about Montana from his lack of arm strength, to INTs to his comp % of 42,52 and 54 before SF drafted the HOF QB near the end of round 3 at #82 overall.
As for ACC's improvement overall, I heard it on ESPN radio about the out of conference record of the ACC being the best in 2016 and here's the results of Bowl season from an article on 1/3/17 (before Clemson beat Alabama in the National Championship):
2016 Conference Bowl Records
ACC 8-3
Big 12 4-2
SEC 6-6
Pac-12 3-3
Big Ten 3-7
Last but not least, when you're saying Watson will be drafted between rounds 2 and 4 - do you remember Tajh Boyd wasn't drafted until round 6? Why would that be if Boyd was so much better?
Watson is Taller and Faster than Boyd.
Lol we're all agreed that not watson in round 1. It's pretty irrelevant the reasons why. Can we agree that if we reach on a QB it should be trubisky?
also if you look at Tajh Boyds draft profile
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/tajh-boyd?id=2543703
it shows that he was projected to be selected between rounds 2 and 3
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Clemson wasn't competing for National Championships until Watson was a soph and jr. That's not my opinion, it's what happened. I just gave you the scores of his only 2 losses in a 28-2 record for his soph and jr years. One loss was 45-40 to Bama and the other was 43-42 to Pitt. What looked worse in those scores, their defense or their offense?
Keep in mind, I don't want a QB in round 1 so let's not lose that in the context of our debate. I gave you Joe Montana's unsexy college TD:INT ratio and comp % in this thread. All the same stuff was being said about Montana from his lack of arm strength, to INTs to his comp % of 42,52 and 54 before SF drafted the HOF QB near the end of round 3 at #82 overall.
As for ACC's improvement overall, I heard it on ESPN radio about the out of conference record of the ACC being the best in 2016 and here's the results of Bowl season from an article on 1/3/17 (before Clemson beat Alabama in the National Championship):
2016 Conference Bowl Records
ACC 8-3
Big 12 4-2
SEC 6-6
Pac-12 3-3
Big Ten 3-7
Last but not least, when you're saying Watson will be drafted between rounds 2 and 4 - do you remember Tajh Boyd wasn't drafted until round 6? Why would that be if Boyd was so much better?
Watson is Taller and Faster than Boyd.
Lol we're all agreed that not watson in round 1. It's pretty irrelevant the reasons why. Can we agree that if we reach on a QB it should be trubisky?
also if you look at Tajh Boyds draft profile
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/tajh-boyd?id=2543703
it shows that he was projected to be selected between rounds 2 and 3
Watson is Taller and Faster than Boyd.
Lol we're all agreed that not watson in round 1. It's pretty irrelevant the reasons why. Can we agree that if we reach on a QB it should be trubisky?
You did good Caine! I like both Trubisky and Watson as long as we don't reach on them. I was only trying to encourage people to keep an open mind on Watson if we go that route after round 1.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Watson is Taller and Faster than Boyd.
Lol we're all agreed that not watson in round 1. It's pretty irrelevant the reasons why. Can we agree that if we reach on a QB it should be trubisky?
You did good Caine! I like both Trubisky and Watson as long as we don't reach on them. I was only trying to encourage people to keep an open mind on Watson if we go that route after round 1.
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Personally I was underwhelmed by Winston's progress in 2016.
But back on Crow... just feels like he is going to negotiate his way into a cheap tender. One that I pray someone will beat, but we will not match as the whole RFA tender thing just seems to create too many ego bruises.
Add that while I like Crow, he is far from irreplaceable. I can see at least three Crow-ish RBs in this draft spread out in rounds 3 thru 6.
Nevertheless, he's a no-doubt franchise QB.
Nevertheless, he's a no-doubt franchise QB.
In your mind perhaps... I prefer to speak for myself.
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Watson is Taller and Faster than Boyd.
Lol we're all agreed that not watson in round 1. It's pretty irrelevant the reasons why. Can we agree that if we reach on a QB it should be trubisky?
You did good Caine! I like both Trubisky and Watson as long as we don't reach on them. I was only trying to encourage people to keep an open mind on Watson if we go that route after round 1.
You did good Caine! I like both Trubisky and Watson as long as we don't reach on them. I was only trying to encourage people to keep an open mind on Watson if we go that route after round 1.
OK, I'll try to keep an open mind- the Combine, Pro Days and private workouts await. But it's going to take a hell of a lot more convincing on my part Watson isn't a terribly overrated RG IV in the making.
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Nevertheless, he's a no-doubt franchise QB.
In your mind perhaps... I prefer to speak for myself.
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