The Trenches Are the Cleveland Browns' Strengths Heading into 2009

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I think every position has been upgraded, but playoff-caliber might be stretching it. I think they're solid at all positions not LB or RB, and above average on the offensive and defensive lines. I think CB is a concern, and I'm not too sure if I should expect a great running game. With the offensive line I think it'll be sufficient. The biggest concerns of mine are QB and pass rush.

daddybull1

If Tuckers on the team he starts either at right guard or right tackle... When healthy he may be our best offensive lineman...

T.Dawg

Tobalaz

I don't like having to rely on Tucker but he's a much better fit at right guard than right tackle.

If he can pull through one more season it'll put us in a good position to draft a replacement for him next season, making a strong point stronger.

The Italian DawgPound

I like what we have "in the trenches".

If BQ is going to start from day one, he needs to be protected. Last year we ended up with all three QB injured. I don't know how competitive we shall be this year, but priority one is to have our best players in the position to perform at their best. QB and RB play will benefit greatly from that.

As far as the D-Line is concerned, I'm so happy Shaun Rogers is still with us! I haven't seen such a beast in the orange and brown D-Line for years. I am looking forward to seeing him cleaning his shoes on Rothlisburger.

ballpeen

@shepwrite said:
Tough to argue that the Browns' personnel on both sides of the line isn't very, very strong. Playoff caliber strong. I like our WRs quite a bit, too, and I'm optimistic about Quinn and the secondary.
The question marks are LB and RB... but there are plenty of reasons to envision happy endings there, too.

Maybe......I like the left side of the O-line.

Mack is still a rookie. I doubt he is going to manhandle guys right off the bat. He may be a upgrade right off the bat, but he is going to have to become a NFL player.

The right side is way unsettled.

Tucker is a big question mark from a health standpoint.

St.Claire is a journeyman player. Shaffer was better than him. Shaffer IMO was a salary cut more than a lack of play.

I think it can be a pretty good line, but a lot of things are going to have to go our way.

We are still a couple of early draft choices away from having the type of line you can just forget about.

I feel even less confident on D.

Rogers is the only real good player in that unit. The rest range from OK to just guys on a football team.

It can get better quicker since you only have 3 starting positions. If some of the new guys step up, it can go from a OK unit to a pretty darn good unit.

Gips

I like tucker over Womack at least until he gets hurt by the 3rd game or so..Steinbach is going to become a liability he is undersized and was starting to really get punked bad by mid season...playoff caliber o line? not quite yet..

Our dline depends on rather williams fully adjusts to being a 3-4 DE if he does our d-line will be rock solid...how well rubin handles rotating in for rogers will be crucial as well since these are the only 2 legit NTs...playoff caliber? hahahaha! decent and likely productive but not playoff caliber just yet..

Both lines will be solid for once but both have potential problem spots that opponents will exploit if possible...but im sure mangini has a plan to deal with it if it happens...

Im hopeful we can get to post season but it really depends on the entire club actually working together in order to achieve it...impossible for the browns to make the playoffs?

Absolutely not!

? Aloysius

St. Clair played out of position last year at left tackle and did an adequate job, but anyone who gives up 9.75 sacks in a season isn't going to win over my heart. I caught part of the Philly game on NFL Network, and the guy had a lot of trouble keeping up with Trent Cole. He reminded me a lot of Max Starks: good initial punch, but lacks the foot quickness to mirror good speed rushers.

The 3 year, $9M contract the Browns gave him puts him at the bottom financial rung of veteran right tackles, next to guys like Cornell Green and Damion McIntosh - not good company. And money wasn't the reason St. Clair came to Cleveland. Per various reports, Chicago was offering similar money, but they wanted him to move inside to guard, where his pass blocking would be less of an issue. The Browns reportedly told him he could stay at tackle.

From what I can tell, the move from Shaffer to St. Clair takes us a step down in pass protection but gives us a legit road grader at right tackle. Hopefully, the offensive coaching staff is able to give him enough help so that his pass pro doesn't hurt us.

? mz.

We can also hope Pork Chop outplays St. Clair at RT and wins the job...

Though guys like Tucker, St. Clair, Womack and Hadnot are far from stars, they offer us a great deal of depth on the right side. This is a damn good O-line, on paper.

ballpeen

@shepwrite said:
St. Clair was a full-time starter for Chicago

I don't care about that. I hope you are right, but IMO the guy is a stiff.

Shaffer was a full time starter too.

I wouldn't allow the fact he started turn him in to something he's not.

He fills a role and need, but he doesn't make a line stronger unless you just don't have anybody.

The Browns need to draft a real RT if they want a line as good as the one we will put on the field this year.

And for the most part, real RT's are off the board by pick 50 unless you just get lucky....which can happen..

YtownBrownsBacker

@shepwrite said:
As a right tackle, I think St. Clair goes up into the top third. Left tackle, not so much. I think he'll be a nice upgrade over Shaffer at that position.
Also the possibility of Womack or St. Clair at RG and Tucker at RT, his favorite position. Lots of possibilities, and all of them are bulldozer types.

St Clair will moist likely be at RT and will be an upgrade over Shaffer. Not because he has more talent, but because he plays with more heart. Shaffer is gone along with a few others because they quit on the team coming down the stretch and I think Mangini noted that in films. St Clair isn't much better but he will play better. Tucker, if healthy will start somewhere. If healthy, he is an outstanding OL, at RT or RG. In 2007, he actually made Shaffer look like a football player and shaffer didn't take any plays off with Tucker next to him.

To answer some comments above; Womack is a guard, he can play some tackle in an emergency, but he is a guard. Hadnot is a good backup, he will backup center and guard. That's what he was brought here for, he isn't a guy you want to hang your hat on as a foundation guy. Steinbach din't play as well last year as in 2007 and it wasn't because he is too small. He played next to a undersized center that was getting his ass kicked and he played hurt most of the year. but, he suited up and never made an excuse. He is the type of guy you want to go to war with. Playing between Thomas and Mack is perfect for him and he should be a stud like he has been in the past. People forget, more then any other positions, the line is a unit and must play like one. Steinbach will hold up his end, but he can't hold up hsi position and help the center on every play.

IMO, the line will be................Thomas, Steinbach, Mack, Tucker, St Clair and Heiden/Royal rotating. If St Clair doesn't cut it, which I think he will with Tucker next to him, it should be; Thomas, Steinbach, Mack, Womack/Hadnot, Tucker with St Clair as a backup tackle. But, I think St Clair will perform well at RT and prosper next to Tucker.

Solon16

I really wish I could've seen a healthy Tim Couch behind this line! seriously.

Tobalaz

@gips said:
Steinbach is going to become a liability he is undersized and was starting to really get punked bad by mid season...playoff caliber o line? not quite yet..

ES played all of last season with a torn pectoral muscle, and as far as him being undersized I don't see it affecting his play as much as you considering last season he had to bail out Fraley the whole time, add in he was injured and yes, it made him look like shit.

So he's coming back healthy and has a center next to him that doesn't need his help blocking one of those big AFC North NTs, but those together and I think he's going to excel this season because it's going to give him the freedom to pull and lead block again which we sorely missed last season.

For the record, I did say first BEFORE we signed him he was slightly undersized and was an overachiever, which is a bad recipe for performance when playing while injured but everyone told me I was crazy.

For the record I was the first to point out Shaffer was not a good signing as a left tackle because when he played in Atlanta he may have played left, but didn't play blindside since they were using a left handed qb at the time and his play would suffer on the left here and again, was called crazy.

I'm to offensive line to what Shep is to qbs, a real student of the trenches.

So, for the record right now, so we can look back at it, I'm letting everyone know Tucker is a liability and we truly need a guard on the right side before we can really consider this line our strength. St Clair will be serviceable as a RT (about the same as Shaffer) but lacks the side to side movement to deal with outside speed rushers, it's the same weakness Tucker started showing 3 seasons ago before we had to move him inside for him to remain productive (when healthy enough to play).

So bash me all you want and call me crazy, but unless our new OC is willing to add a TE to help St Clair when we face a fast outside rush (and hopefully a back that can give a good hit to a surprise rusher St Clair is going to miss to give Quinn, or WHOEVER our starting qb may be that extra second) that right side is going to look really bad, really fast.

Dan in Florida

Tobalaz...you're crazy!!

Just kidding...you have a THING about people calling you crazy. Your logic seems sound to me. I don't know your previous predicitons. I do agree that the NEXT DRAFT needs to address the RIGHT SIDE OF THE LINE (probably RT)

Sez.EJ

I like Tucker to win the RT tackle spot with St. Claire as the backup.. I believe we will be stronger with that lineup. maybe I just like tucker a little more. Better guy starts and we will be decent on the left side if they can protect the QB. The run game should be better with Mack. I am tired of having the guards have to help the center(Fraley) so much. Mack was drafted for the purpose of handling the likes of Casey Hampton , Ngata, and Tank Johnson. He is a big boy and that is EXACTLY the reason he was brought in to negate those big boys in the middle of the division teams DL. I am also tired of watching the pocket collapse up the middle. That should end with Mack in there.

DL is still a big question mark to me. It looks better on paper.. But we thought we had this fixed last year too, and we sucked. So I will wait and see.

I have confidence in the OL but DL?? not so sure.

Steeler SChick

@inspecta said:
The offensive line more than any other group on a football team has to play as one cohesive unit. They have to have one mind and one purpose and act accordingly. If one guy on the offensive line isn't playing 100% or isn't on the same page it can make everybody look terrible.

Over-rated.

Our line is mediocre at best and we won 2 SB's with it.

A solid O-line is nice, but if you don't have players in other key spots, none of it means dick.

Regards

..... an'at

.

? mz.

Steeler SChuck said:
Our line is mediocre at best and we won 2 SB's with it.

Very true. You just happen to have a QB that can make up for a crap line. Not sure we have that luxury.

Mr. T

May we see another 1,000 yard tandem this coming season? Even old JL will have plenty of time to pick and choose a hole.

Tobalaz

Steeler SChuck said:
Over-rated.
Our line is mediocre at best and we won 2 SB's with it.

A solid O-line is nice, but if you don't have players in other key spots, none of it means dick.

Regards

..... an'at

.

I tend to disagree.

You had EXCELLENT runblockers on the line, it's just their pass protection was suspect.

However, Ben holding on to the ball as long as he does at times made their pass blocking look worse than it really was.

Another thing is both Big Gay Ben and Byron Leftwich have a slower wind up on their passes, once the tackles started carrying back their blocks an extra 3 feet they looked much better giving their qbs an extra second and a half.

I do agree with everyone else however, cohesion of the unit and the ability to work together as one is just as if not more important than the talent that encompasses it.

calfoxwc

Exactly. Pittifullburg had the #1 defense,

and often gave Rothlicksbooger enough time to stand

back there and throw to Hines Ward...

who always gets open and always catches the ball

and always laughs like an idiot. I hate him. GGG

Derrick Anderson with a fractured throwing hand could have

"led" the Steelers to the superbowl last year.

? Aloysius

@shepwrite said:
As a right tackle, I think St. Clair goes up into the top third. Left tackle, not so much. I think he'll be a nice upgrade over Shaffer at that position.

Just as we probably shouldn't have relied on a guy whose nickname is "the Human Hamstring Pull" to give us 16 games last year, I don't think a guy nicknamed "the Human Turnstile" is going to be a great all around right tackle for us.

But that doesn't mean it was a bad move to replace Shaffer with St. Clair, just a different approach to the position.

Particularly in the AFC North, one can argue that it's best to have two bookend tackles who are great pass protectors, thereby limiting the hurt Suggs, Woodley, and Harrison can put on your QB. That, I think, was part of the reasoning behind drafting Thomas and moving Shaffer to right tackle. If you can get good pass pro from both tackles, it really opens up the passing game, as we saw in '07.

On the other hand, one could argue that with the tough, physical defenses in our divison, you want a punch 'em in the mouth right tackle who can be a road grader on the right side. That way, you'll face less 3rd and longs, which is when those great pass rushers really pin their ears back and get after the QB.

These two approaches aren't mutually exclusive. Ideally, you want a guy who's got left tackle feet and mauls like a right guard. And I'm with ballpeen here: our scouts better be looking for a good RT prospect in next year's draft.

But you can't always have the perfect solution. And when Mangini can't, he clearly prefers having that road grader over having a bookend pass blocker. Just look at what he did last year: he signed a career interior lineman with only a few games' experience at tackle to play RT. I doubt he was expecting Damien Woody to be a great pass blocker; he probably figured he could give him enough help that pass blocking wouldn't be an issue, leaving him with a guy who'd open up holes on the right side. Considering that D'Brickashaw Ferguson is a poor run blocker, putting a mauler at RT made even more sense.

I'm guessing that the Browns' coaching staff is planning to do the same with St. Clair. If they leave the guy on an island, LaMarr Woodley is going to run right by him. But if you give him enough help, you can at least partly compensate for his slow feet.

With that in mind, it'd be nice to have a running back who's good at picking up blitzers and/or guys St. Clair occasionally whiffs on. Not sure we have one of those: IIRC, Noah Herron's good at it, but he's a roster bubble guy who probably won't be active on Sundays.