Is Garret really the best DE in this draft

jcam222

@syd said:

why ?

If college performance consistently translated to the NFL mock drafts and the months of discussions would be non existent.

syd

@jcam222 said:
discussions would be non existent.

and worthless

Mudfly

@ghoolie said:
He is the best college DE. That doesn't mean he will be the best in the NFL.

@d-bone said:
There are no guarantees that any college kid, regardless of his measurables, will succeed at the next level.

@jcam222 said:
If college performance consistently translated to the NFL mock drafts and the months of discussions would be non existent.

Exactly.....but its all we have to rate them by and it's what every one does.....and no guarantees either way....ever

Which is why it's stupid for anyone to claim their guy is best base upon college perf, while claiming another guy sucks because college doesnt prove anything...which is where a lot of these threads end up.....

All you can do is factor an educated guess.....and dwerps that claim to know "with certainty" that any player will fail or succeed are just that....dwerps...

Carry on....

Tour2ma

Warren Sapp apparently doesn't understand that college D against running QBs a measure of discipline from the DL and especially Edge DL.

@jcam222 said:
I'll be the first to admit I watch very little college ball. For those of you who do tell me why he is so much better than Derek Barnett for example. Even Solomon Thomas. Also if you have followed him personally does he love football? Does he take plays off? Is he as surefire as the hype? Lastly if you don't believe he actually is a lock at #1 who do you take or do you move down a few spots? EDIT- Expand the thought process to not only is he the best DE but is he the best player.

Barnett is smaller and slower... good enough? Solomon Thomas? Different player and a closer, but still not all that close, call.

Love Football? Yes.
Take plays off? Yes... more on this later...
He's as surefire as any in this draft.
He's my lock, so can't help you.

On taking plays off...

I think Jeff Saturday said it best last week on NFL Live when he said (more or less),

"Can we knock this crap off? Every player in the NFL takes plays off. I took plays off. There are times when you are dog tired and you know you should chase that LB downfield and be in position in case your RB cuts back, but you just don't. And these kids in college are on the field for a bunch more plays than any pro ever is."

Tour2ma

@d-bone said:
So much is made about measurables - 40 time, arm length, long jump, shuttle time, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada..... There are only two things that make the great players great, and it's their heart and brain.

Bullshit... if it were true Ben Boulware would go #1.

"Heart", "desire", "passion", "motor" plus "football smarts" can only close small "talent" gaps.

I will grant you that all the talent in the world doesn't mean jack, if desire is not there. But just because it's not in your face, does not mean it's not there... and here's proof...

@clevfan4life said:
Honestly i wouldnt mind taking garett this year even if we had taken bosa last year, those two would be unfair on the same front 4. However, think what we could command this year with the 1st?

So you finally admit that Bosa would not have improved our 2016 results?

secondwave

With everyone all up and arms over Jamal Adams, I don't even think he's the best safety in this draft. Malik Hooker, while raw, has all the tools to be the best defensive player in this draft .The way he high-points the ball, his positioning, instincts, scream all-pro by year 3.

calfoxwc

@secondwave said:
With everyone all up and arms over Jamal Adams, I don't even think he's the best safety in this draft. Malik Hooker, while raw, has all the tools to be the best defensive player in this draft .The way he high-points the ball, his positioning, instincts, scream all-pro by year 3.

to a point, I believe that too, except for Hooker's hip injuries, and the fact that Hooker is a free safety,

and Adams a strong safety. Seems like that is missing from some rankings...

secondwave

@calfoxwc said:

to a point, I believe that too, except for Hooker's hip injuries, and the fact that Hooker is a free safety,

and Adams a strong safety. Seems like that is missing from some rankings...

Hooker has unlimited range and elite tracking skills. Shades of Ed Reed.

Whereas Jamal Adams is better tackler and a better finisher at POC.

BrownsnMopar

@secondwave said:

Hooker has unlimited range and elite tracking skills. Shades of Ed Reed.

Whereas Jamal Adams is better tackler and a better finisher at POC.

SO LETS GET BOTH!!! ?

The Gipper

@suomi said:
Too late. The Browns defense needs stars, and those are only available in the first round.

See Mudfly's thread on "the best". It shows that at just about every position on the field, certainly skill positions, most of the "stars"...HOF caliber players are indeed drafted in the first round.

The Gipper

@syd said:

why ?

While I expect the Browns to draft their second player named Garrett with the overall #1 pick, and while I hope that he does not turn out like the other Garrett the Browns took #1 (Bobby...a complete bust), and while I hope he is the next coming of Bruce Smith or Deacon Jones.....the fact is that there ARE concerns:

A. Much of his production came against the cupcakes on the A&M schedule.....his performance took a precipitous dropoff when he came up against the stiffer competition of the SEC.

B. As Sapp said, he takes plays off....and can be lazy at time.

C. His run defense skills may be lacking.

Now, hopefully...all these things can be overcome if the Browns draft him. Even if they are not completely overcome,, hopefully he brings his motor in high gear during passing plays to utilize the skills that so many see in him as a pass rush specialist.

But the concerns are there...and that is the answer to the "why".

The Gipper

@jcam222 said:
discussions would be non existent.

and worthless

You mean you think they are not now? While I may participate in some of it....I do recognize the worthlessness of all the discussions we all have. The Browns FO does not give a cabbage fart about what we all have to say.

D Bone

@tour2ma said:

Bullshit... if it were true Ben Boulware would go #1.

"Heart", "desire", "passion", "motor" plus "football smarts" can only close small "talent" gaps.

I will grant you that all the talent in the world doesn't mean jack, if desire is not there. But just because it's not in your face, does not mean it's not there... and here's proof...

905px-Joe_Thomas_Cleveland_Browns_New_Uniform_Unveiling_(17153558101).jpg

So you finally admit that Bosa would not have improved our 2016 results?

lol! Did I attack the very core of your pre-draft experience T?

Take Ray Lewis for example. There were many LBs that were faster than him, jumped higher than him, had longer arms, ect.. (yada, yada), yet there were only a handful in the history of the game that played the sport better than him..... If only I could think of another example..... oh wait, that dude that plays QB in New England is an even better one - dude looked and measured like a baby giraffe.

I'm not saying that measurables should completely be ignored, but they in no way (sorry) predicate if the athlete will be successful..... If only I could think of an example - Oh, sorry David Veikune, I didn't see you there.

Only 4 more days T, 4 more days.......

Tour2ma

@d-bone said:

lol! Did I attack the very core of your pre-draft experience T?

Take Ray Lewis for example. There were many LBs that were faster than him, jumped higher than him, had longer arms, ect.. (yada, yada), yet there were only a handful in the history of the game that played the sport better than him..... If only I could think of another example..... oh wait, that dude that plays QB in New England is an even better one - dude looked and measured like a baby giraffe.

I'm not saying that measurables should completely be ignored, but they in no way (sorry) predicate if the athlete will be successful..... If only I could think of an example - Oh, sorry David Veikune, I didn't see you there.

Only 4 more days T, 4 more days.......

3.25...

Wasn't expecting Ray, but I did anticipate a Brady comeback.

Won't bullshit you and say I saw Tom coming... closest I can come is a memory of him impressively leading a 2nd half comeback to beat our Buckeyes in '99... ( http://grfx.cstv.com/schools/osu/graphics/pdf/m-footbl/1999/1999-12-Michigan.pdf )... but his Combine numbers did not suck across the board.

EDIT: That '99 Mich team ended up #5 in the country after beating BAMA in a bowl game shoot out.

Brady's line: 34-46-369, 3 TDs, 0 Ints ( http://bentley.umich.edu/athdept/football/bowls/2000orng.htm )

Yes, his 5.24 time in the 40 was slow, and his vert and broad jumps were laughable, but his 3-cone and 20-yd shuttle times were decent and very competitive within his draft class.... and check out his 10-yd split...

40 Yard Dash: 5.28 seconds; 20 Yard Dash: 2.94 seconds; 10 Yard Dash: 1.70 second

Vertical Leap: 24.5 inches; Broad Jump: 99 inches;

20 Yd Shuttle: 4.38 seconds; Three Cone: 7.20 seconds

Bench Press: (N/A) reps (225 lb); 60 Yd Shuttle: (N/A) seconds

Wonderlic: 33 (0-50)

Combine those 10-yd and 3-cone results and you have "escapability"... but then there was that "topless photo"... of, at 6'4 (or 6'5), the tallest QB in the draft class... and at 211 a player who hadn't quite filled out. Current weight? 225...

http://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=4732

Combine data was scarce back in Ray Ray's day (predates DraftScouts and combinereults.com's data bases), so you'll have to dig up all those other LBs who measured better than him, but here are Lewis' raw numbers that I managed to find...

6'1, 240# ( http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1498026-ray-lewis-vs-patrick-willis-comparing-the-past-present-of-the-lb-position )

40 yard dash - 4.58 seconds; 225 bench Press - 34; Vertical leap - 38.5" (at Pro Day numbers at Answers.com and above link)

Not seeing any issues... as in major gaps that "desire" cannot fill...

Tour2ma

@secondwave said:

Hooker has unlimited range and elite tracking skills. Shades of Ed Reed.

Whereas Jamal Adams is better tackler and a better finisher at POC.

Range? Yes. Unlimited? Hyperbole?

"Elite tackling skills"? Ummmm... no...

Comeonman

@tour2ma said:

Range? Yes. Unlimited? Hyperbole?

"Elite tackling skills"? Ummmm... no...

He said elite tracking skills. It may not be elite, but it's damn close

Clevfan4life

@tour2ma said:

So you finally admit that Bosa would not have improved our 2016 results?

I never ever contended one single player would change this teams fortunes. But it doesnt matter u take players like bosa when they're there for u. U have to surround them with other competent players, always acknowledged that.

Mudfly

@tour2ma said:
So you finally admit that Bosa would not have improved our 2016 results?

I wouldnt be quick to admit that......Jamie Collins made a noticeable difference....and I think with Bosa, maybe a few more big plays woulda happened.....and one or 2 of those might have been the difference....

@tour2ma said:

Range? Yes. Unlimited? Hyperbole?

"Elite tackling skills"? Ummmm... no...

Exactly......tackling = NO................tracking = elite

But...listen.....a safety who doesnt tackle well cannot be considered an elite prospect.....(especially an injured one)

@comeonman said:
He said elite tracking skills. It may not be elite, but it's damn close

See above....he's got mad ball skills, but thats it.....not really a well rounded candidate...(imho)(at least, for the price)

Canton Dawg

TexasAg1969

@canton-dawg said:
IMG_0018.JPG

For the umpteenth time. SEC East is NOT SEC West. Apples and oranges. Plus SEC OC's set their gameplans to stay away and double/triple team Garrett. Not so much on Barnett.