Is Garret really the best DE in this draft

The Gipper

@suomi said:
Too late. The Browns defense needs stars, and those are only available in the first round.

See Mudfly's thread on "the best". It shows that at just about every position on the field, certainly skill positions, most of the "stars"...HOF caliber players are indeed drafted in the first round.

The Gipper

@syd said:

why ?

While I expect the Browns to draft their second player named Garrett with the overall #1 pick, and while I hope that he does not turn out like the other Garrett the Browns took #1 (Bobby...a complete bust), and while I hope he is the next coming of Bruce Smith or Deacon Jones.....the fact is that there ARE concerns:

A. Much of his production came against the cupcakes on the A&M schedule.....his performance took a precipitous dropoff when he came up against the stiffer competition of the SEC.

B. As Sapp said, he takes plays off....and can be lazy at time.

C. His run defense skills may be lacking.

Now, hopefully...all these things can be overcome if the Browns draft him. Even if they are not completely overcome,, hopefully he brings his motor in high gear during passing plays to utilize the skills that so many see in him as a pass rush specialist.

But the concerns are there...and that is the answer to the "why".

The Gipper

@jcam222 said:
discussions would be non existent.

and worthless

You mean you think they are not now? While I may participate in some of it....I do recognize the worthlessness of all the discussions we all have. The Browns FO does not give a cabbage fart about what we all have to say.

D Bone

@tour2ma said:

Bullshit... if it were true Ben Boulware would go #1.

"Heart", "desire", "passion", "motor" plus "football smarts" can only close small "talent" gaps.

I will grant you that all the talent in the world doesn't mean jack, if desire is not there. But just because it's not in your face, does not mean it's not there... and here's proof...

905px-Joe_Thomas_Cleveland_Browns_New_Uniform_Unveiling_(17153558101).jpg

So you finally admit that Bosa would not have improved our 2016 results?

lol! Did I attack the very core of your pre-draft experience T?

Take Ray Lewis for example. There were many LBs that were faster than him, jumped higher than him, had longer arms, ect.. (yada, yada), yet there were only a handful in the history of the game that played the sport better than him..... If only I could think of another example..... oh wait, that dude that plays QB in New England is an even better one - dude looked and measured like a baby giraffe.

I'm not saying that measurables should completely be ignored, but they in no way (sorry) predicate if the athlete will be successful..... If only I could think of an example - Oh, sorry David Veikune, I didn't see you there.

Only 4 more days T, 4 more days.......

Tour2ma

@d-bone said:

lol! Did I attack the very core of your pre-draft experience T?

Take Ray Lewis for example. There were many LBs that were faster than him, jumped higher than him, had longer arms, ect.. (yada, yada), yet there were only a handful in the history of the game that played the sport better than him..... If only I could think of another example..... oh wait, that dude that plays QB in New England is an even better one - dude looked and measured like a baby giraffe.

I'm not saying that measurables should completely be ignored, but they in no way (sorry) predicate if the athlete will be successful..... If only I could think of an example - Oh, sorry David Veikune, I didn't see you there.

Only 4 more days T, 4 more days.......

3.25...

Wasn't expecting Ray, but I did anticipate a Brady comeback.

Won't bullshit you and say I saw Tom coming... closest I can come is a memory of him impressively leading a 2nd half comeback to beat our Buckeyes in '99... ( http://grfx.cstv.com/schools/osu/graphics/pdf/m-footbl/1999/1999-12-Michigan.pdf )... but his Combine numbers did not suck across the board.

EDIT: That '99 Mich team ended up #5 in the country after beating BAMA in a bowl game shoot out.

Brady's line: 34-46-369, 3 TDs, 0 Ints ( http://bentley.umich.edu/athdept/football/bowls/2000orng.htm )

Yes, his 5.24 time in the 40 was slow, and his vert and broad jumps were laughable, but his 3-cone and 20-yd shuttle times were decent and very competitive within his draft class.... and check out his 10-yd split...

40 Yard Dash: 5.28 seconds; 20 Yard Dash: 2.94 seconds; 10 Yard Dash: 1.70 second

Vertical Leap: 24.5 inches; Broad Jump: 99 inches;

20 Yd Shuttle: 4.38 seconds; Three Cone: 7.20 seconds

Bench Press: (N/A) reps (225 lb); 60 Yd Shuttle: (N/A) seconds

Wonderlic: 33 (0-50)

Combine those 10-yd and 3-cone results and you have "escapability"... but then there was that "topless photo"... of, at 6'4 (or 6'5), the tallest QB in the draft class... and at 211 a player who hadn't quite filled out. Current weight? 225...

http://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=4732

Combine data was scarce back in Ray Ray's day (predates DraftScouts and combinereults.com's data bases), so you'll have to dig up all those other LBs who measured better than him, but here are Lewis' raw numbers that I managed to find...

6'1, 240# ( http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1498026-ray-lewis-vs-patrick-willis-comparing-the-past-present-of-the-lb-position )

40 yard dash - 4.58 seconds; 225 bench Press - 34; Vertical leap - 38.5" (at Pro Day numbers at Answers.com and above link)

Not seeing any issues... as in major gaps that "desire" cannot fill...

Tour2ma

@secondwave said:

Hooker has unlimited range and elite tracking skills. Shades of Ed Reed.

Whereas Jamal Adams is better tackler and a better finisher at POC.

Range? Yes. Unlimited? Hyperbole?

"Elite tackling skills"? Ummmm... no...

Comeonman

@tour2ma said:

Range? Yes. Unlimited? Hyperbole?

"Elite tackling skills"? Ummmm... no...

He said elite tracking skills. It may not be elite, but it's damn close

Clevfan4life

@tour2ma said:

So you finally admit that Bosa would not have improved our 2016 results?

I never ever contended one single player would change this teams fortunes. But it doesnt matter u take players like bosa when they're there for u. U have to surround them with other competent players, always acknowledged that.

Mudfly

@tour2ma said:
So you finally admit that Bosa would not have improved our 2016 results?

I wouldnt be quick to admit that......Jamie Collins made a noticeable difference....and I think with Bosa, maybe a few more big plays woulda happened.....and one or 2 of those might have been the difference....

@tour2ma said:

Range? Yes. Unlimited? Hyperbole?

"Elite tackling skills"? Ummmm... no...

Exactly......tackling = NO................tracking = elite

But...listen.....a safety who doesnt tackle well cannot be considered an elite prospect.....(especially an injured one)

@comeonman said:
He said elite tracking skills. It may not be elite, but it's damn close

See above....he's got mad ball skills, but thats it.....not really a well rounded candidate...(imho)(at least, for the price)

Canton Dawg

TexasAg1969

@canton-dawg said:
IMG_0018.JPG

For the umpteenth time. SEC East is NOT SEC West. Apples and oranges. Plus SEC OC's set their gameplans to stay away and double/triple team Garrett. Not so much on Barnett.

RoyceRolls

Well apparently Garrett scored a 31 on the wonderlic, whatever that means...

Tour2ma

It means he's got a pretty quick mind, even under pressure.

And to close a couple loops...

If I want "elite tracking skills", I'll buy a Bloodhound... who can tackle.
Guess I shoulda gone pink on the Bosa thing.

StinkHole

@syd said:
why ?

Trent Richardson

secondwave

@tour2ma said:

Range? Yes. Unlimited? Hyperbole?

"Elite tackling skills"? Ummmm... no...

Tad hyperbole with 'unlimited' range, but I'm certain you understood my point. His football speed and hip fluidity and remind me of a taller, longer Ed Reed.

And yes, elite tracking skills. Often times, players with multiple interceptions have the football fall into their lap. If you watch his interceptions, he earned most of them. How many safeties can you point out that can beat receivers in the air for the ball?

Being a former cornerback, the one thing I can't help but notice is a DB's backpedal, so a few things I can point out are his upright stance during man coverage, and slow awareness during zone. Both very teachable considering its his first year starting.

Clevfan4life

@mudfly said:

I wouldnt be quick to admit that......Jamie Collins made a noticeable difference....and I think with Bosa, maybe a few more big plays woulda happened.....and one or 2 of those might have been the difference....

)

Even if he wouldnt have made a difference in the overall record, wouldnt it have been nice to see 10.5 sacks from a browns player? I mean we have fuckall to root for which is why people went nuts for gordon despite everything. That explosive play on offense or defense that fans of other teams take for granted, i feel cleveland fans just savor more.

Lols. But srsly, watching an opposing rb heading for the gap then all of a sudden the huge tackle leading the way gets shedded like used tp and a browns jersey collapses the hole and the play gets stuffed...........yyyeeaahhhhhhh, thats what i want

The Gipper

@secondwave said:

Tad hyperbole with 'unlimited' range, but I'm certain you understood my point. His football speed and hip fluidity and remind me of a taller, longer Ed Reed.

I mean, if we want a guy with superior "hip fluidity" we should go with this guy:

Tour2ma

Absolutely, would love 10.5 sacks... and would love more even more... and double that in knock-downs... and double that in hurries.

You saw Bosa coming where others including me did not... at least not coming on as fast as he did. My only defense is that I did not think he was the right piece at the right price at the right time... and I think the jury is still out on that count. I've no choice but to concede that after 2016 Bosa has the lead over the bevy of picks we made, but I'm not ready to throw in the towel... yet.

@secondwave said:

Tad hyperbole with 'unlimited' range, but I'm certain you understood my point. His football speed and hip fluidity and remind me of a taller, longer Ed Reed.

And yes, elite tracking skills. Often times, players with multiple interceptions have the football fall into their lap. If you watch his interceptions, he earned most of them. How many safeties can you point out that can beat receivers in the air for the ball?

Being a former cornerback, the one thing I can't help but notice is a DB's backpedal, so a few things I can point out are his upright stance during man coverage, and slow awareness during zone. Both very teachable considering its his first year starting.

Yes... I understood your points, but in the process of my frivolous reply I never made mine.

Totally agree on Hookers ball skills, his centerfield acumen, and fluid movement, but... I don't see a complete FS in him. And I certainly don't see an Ed Reed who in addition to his great ball-hawking, "brought it" when he closed on a ball carrier. Ed was the best I'd seen since Sean Taylor's career was tragically ended in its prime.

Now that Ed has retired there are some great nominees for best in the game, e.g. Earl Thomas, who is first in line, Eric Berry, but I don't think any have ascended to Ed's level... not yet. Can Hooker get into that conversation? We'll see...

Clevfan4life

@tour2ma said:

Absolutely, would love 10.5 sacks... and would love more even more... and double that in knock-downs... and double that in hurries.

You saw Bosa coming where others including me did not... at least not coming on as fast as he did. My only defense is that I did not think he was the right piece at the right price at the right time... and I think the jury is still out on that count. I've no choice but to concede that after 2016 Bosa has the lead over the bevy of picks we made,..

Even though i think bosa was more of a complete player coming out of vollege than garett currently is, garett has the definite potential to hit 12 or more sacks his rookie year. He's a better pure edge rusher than bosa but edge rushing was never bosas game. Honestly the two would have complimented each other so well.....?