The Trenches Are the Cleveland Browns' Strengths Heading into 2009
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Is everybody forgetting about rex hadnot? after the third start he played well. i think st clair and tucker will battle for rt, st clair prob will start at rt and hadnot is starting at rg.
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Is everybody forgetting about rex hadnot? after the third start he played well. i think st clair and tucker will battle for rt, st clair prob will start at rt and hadnot is starting at rg.
Is everybody forgetting about rex hadnot? after the third start he played well. i think st clair and tucker will battle for rt, st clair prob will start at rt and hadnot is starting at rg.
Is that your final answer?
Hadnot was NOT a good lineman last season, he was serviceable.
His pass blocking was average and didn't get any real push on running plays.
His versatility, being able to be average at guard and center, will give him a roster spot, but I don't see the guy EVER, EVER being a starter, barring injuries, with this team again.
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@shepwrite said:
As a right tackle, I think St. Clair goes up into the top third. Left tackle, not so much. I think he'll be a nice upgrade over Shaffer at that position.Just as we probably shouldn't have relied on a guy whose nickname is "the Human Hamstring Pull" to give us 16 games last year, I don't think a guy nicknamed "the Human Turnstile" is going to be a great all around right tackle for us.
But that doesn't mean it was a bad move to replace Shaffer with St. Clair, just a different approach to the position.
Particularly in the AFC North, one can argue that it's best to have two bookend tackles who are great pass protectors, thereby limiting the hurt Suggs, Woodley, and Harrison can put on your QB. That, I think, was part of the reasoning behind drafting Thomas and moving Shaffer to right tackle. If you can get good pass pro from both tackles, it really opens up the passing game, as we saw in '07.
On the other hand, one could argue that with the tough, physical defenses in our divison, you want a punch 'em in the mouth right tackle who can be a road grader on the right side. That way, you'll face less 3rd and longs, which is when those great pass rushers really pin their ears back and get after the QB.
These two approaches aren't mutually exclusive. Ideally, you want a guy who's got left tackle feet and mauls like a right guard. And I'm with ballpeen here: our scouts better be looking for a good RT prospect in next year's draft.
But you can't always have the perfect solution. And when Mangini can't, he clearly prefers having that road grader over having a bookend pass blocker. Just look at what he did last year: he signed a career interior lineman with only a few games' experience at tackle to play RT. I doubt he was expecting Damien Woody to be a great pass blocker; he probably figured he could give him enough help that pass blocking wouldn't be an issue, leaving him with a guy who'd open up holes on the right side. Considering that D'Brickashaw Ferguson is a poor run blocker, putting a mauler at RT made even more sense.
I'm guessing that the Browns' coaching staff is planning to do the same with St. Clair. If they leave the guy on an island, LaMarr Woodley is going to run right by him. But if you give him enough help, you can at least partly compensate for his slow feet.
With that in mind, it'd be nice to have a running back who's good at picking up blitzers and/or guys St. Clair occasionally whiffs on. Not sure we have one of those: IIRC, Noah Herron's good at it, but he's a roster bubble guy who probably won't be active on Sundays.
Aloysius said:
Just as we probably shouldn't have relied on a guy whose nickname is "the Human Hamstring Pull" to give us 16 games last year, I don't think a guy nicknamed "the Human Turnstile" is going to be a great all around right tackle for us.But that doesn't mean it was a bad move to replace Shaffer with St. Clair, just a different approach to the position.
Particularly in the AFC North, one can argue that it's best to have two bookend tackles who are great pass protectors, thereby limiting the hurt Suggs, Woodley, and Harrison can put on your QB. That, I think, was part of the reasoning behind drafting Thomas and moving Shaffer to right tackle. If you can get good pass pro from both tackles, it really opens up the passing game, as we saw in '07.
On the other hand, one could argue that with the tough, physical defenses in our divison, you want a punch 'em in the mouth right tackle who can be a road grader on the right side. That way, you'll face less 3rd and longs, which is when those great pass rushers really pin their ears back and get after the QB.
These two approaches aren't mutually exclusive. Ideally, you want a guy who's got left tackle feet and mauls like a right guard. And I'm with ballpeen here: our scouts better be looking for a good RT prospect in next year's draft.
But you can't always have the perfect solution. And when Mangini can't, he clearly prefers having that road grader over having a bookend pass blocker. Just look at what he did last year: he signed a career interior lineman with only a few games' experience at tackle to play RT. I doubt he was expecting Damien Woody to be a great pass blocker; he probably figured he could give him enough help that pass blocking wouldn't be an issue, leaving him with a guy who'd open up holes on the right side. Considering that D'Brickashaw Ferguson is a poor run blocker, putting a mauler at RT made even more sense.
I'm guessing that the Browns' coaching staff is planning to do the same with St. Clair. If they leave the guy on an island, LaMarr Woodley is going to run right by him. But if you give him enough help, you can at least partly compensate for his slow feet.
With that in mind, it'd be nice to have a running back who's good at picking up blitzers and/or guys St. Clair occasionally whiffs on. Not sure we have one of those: IIRC, Noah Herron's good at it, but he's a roster bubble guy who probably won't be active on Sundays.
They can give him help using a TE to chip block on the way out...at least that allow the guy to set his feet and not get beat on the outside in the first step, or as you say, keep a back in to help out, but long term he isn't a answer....as you note.
We need a real RT if we want the line to be one of the better lines in the league.
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Um Rex Hadnot only allowed 1.5 sacks in the entire 2008 season with 15 starts. I would call that a pretty good RG.
If you want to compare:
Joe Thomas allowed 4.5 sacks last season (16 starts & ProBowl)
Eric Steinbach allowed 3 Sacks (14 Starts)
Hank Fraley Allowd 2.5 sacks (16 starts)
Kevin Shaffer allowed 4.5 sacks. (15 starts)
With Rex Hadnot actually allowing the least amount of sacks out of ALL starting Browns OLinemen, I would say that Hadnot is going to be our starting RG unless somebody proves to be a stud.
Tucker & St. Clair are going to battle for RT. If Tucker can't win RT it is simply because he is to old and slow, and they aren't going to let him start at RG then. He will be a backup for G and T.
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A real RT?
If healthy, Tucker is our best OL. I believe that. The only question I would have is his age and if he's finally "lost a step". If not, he'll be starting at RT and we'll have the rest of the candidates competing for the RG spot. Tucker has ample pass protection skills and can flat out stomp in run blocking. I'm a big fan.
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A real RT?
If healthy, Tucker is our best OL. I believe that. The only question I would have is his age and if he's finally "lost a step". If not, he'll be starting at RT and we'll have the rest of the candidates competing for the RG spot. Tucker has ample pass protection skills and can flat out stomp in run blocking. I'm a big fan.
A real RT?
If healthy, Tucker is our best OL. I believe that. The only question I would have is his age and if he's finally "lost a step". If not, he'll be starting at RT and we'll have the rest of the candidates competing for the RG spot. Tucker has ample pass protection skills and can flat out stomp in run blocking. I'm a big fan.
You are right on. If healthy tucker will start somewhere and that swomewhere depends on St. clair and Womack/Hadnot. Whomever performs better, will start next to Tucker. As far as Hadnot and his giving up sacks, we palyed 3-4 teams that don't rush the passer from the inside. Hadnot and Shaffer were pathetic in run blocking and below average in pass blocking. Hadnot may look a bit better with a strong center, but I really think it is Tuckers job and St clair will be given the shot at RT. Starting next to Tucker should help him a lot. In Chicago he was on an island at LT, he won't be here.
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A real RT?
If healthy, Tucker is our best OL. I believe that. The only question I would have is his age and if he's finally "lost a step". If not, he'll be starting at RT and we'll have the rest of the candidates competing for the RG spot. Tucker has ample pass protection skills and can flat out stomp in run blocking. I'm a big fan.
You are right on. If healthy tucker will start somewhere and that swomewhere depends on St. clair and Womack/Hadnot. Whomever performs better, will start next to Tucker. As far as Hadnot and his giving up sacks, we palyed 3-4 teams that don't rush the passer from the inside. Hadnot and Shaffer were pathetic in run blocking and below average in pass blocking. Hadnot may look a bit better with a strong center, but I really think it is Tuckers job and St clair will be given the shot at RT. Starting next to Tucker should help him a lot. In Chicago he was on an island at LT, he won't be here.
You are right on. If healthy tucker will start somewhere and that swomewhere depends on St. clair and Womack/Hadnot. Whomever performs better, will start next to Tucker. As far as Hadnot and his giving up sacks, we palyed 3-4 teams that don't rush the passer from the inside. Hadnot and Shaffer were pathetic in run blocking and below average in pass blocking. Hadnot may look a bit better with a strong center, but I really think it is Tuckers job and St clair will be given the shot at RT. Starting next to Tucker should help him a lot. In Chicago he was on an island at LT, he won't be here.
Look at it this way, if you go across from left to right you have four studs in a row with JT, Steiny, Mack and Tucker. If it's St. Clair that fills in we'll be able to pinpoint where we need help at RT and only in the passing game. Tucker will be able to help out from his guard spot whereas both center and RT will have to help out the RG spot. It's a no brainer to me, but it will be sorted out in camp. I thought I heard where Hadnot was coming in a new man this year in better shape, but I have no links to support that.
I still think Tucker is much more valuable a guard than tackle because it's his strength at this point in his career.
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@inspecta said:
The offensive line more than any other group on a football team has to play as one cohesive unit. They have to have one mind and one purpose and act accordingly. If one guy on the offensive line isn't playing 100% or isn't on the same page it can make everybody look terrible.Over-rated.
Our line is mediocre at best and we won 2 SB's with it.
A solid O-line is nice, but if you don't have players in other key spots, none of it means dick.
Regards
..... an'at
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Steeler SChuck said:
Over-rated.Our line is mediocre at best and we won 2 SB's with it.
A solid O-line is nice, but if you don't have players in other key spots, none of it means dick.
In the end it had little to do with the Steeler's O-line or their QB or their RB's or the WR's
The Steelers proved one thing. Just as the Raven did a few years ago. You can win a Super Bowl with an average offense as long as you have a fantastic defense to carry the load.
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Steeler SChuck said:
Over-rated.Our line is mediocre at best and we won 2 SB's with it.
A solid O-line is nice, but if you don't have players in other key spots, none of it means dick.
In the end it had little to do with the Steeler's O-line or their QB or their RB's or the WR's
The Steelers proved one thing. Just as the Raven did a few years ago. You can win a Super Bowl with an average offense as long as you have a fantastic defense to carry the load.
In the end it had little to do with the Steeler's O-line or their QB or their RB's or the WR's
The Steelers proved one thing. Just as the Raven did a few years ago. You can win a Super Bowl with an average offense as long as you have a fantastic defense to carry the load.
I'm sorry but Ogden was one of the best left tackles to play in the last 20 years.
The Ravens had a great line and running game with mediocre passing game.
Trent Frakin Dillweed man, come on!
I will admit, I hadn't seen a defense just flat out dominate like that since the 85 Bears.
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In the end it had little to do with the Steeler's O-line or their QB or their RB's or the WR's
The Steelers proved one thing. Just as the Raven did a few years ago. You can win a Super Bowl with an average offense as long as you have a fantastic defense to carry the load.
I'm sorry but Ogden was one of the best left tackles to play in the last 20 years.
The Ravens had a great line and running game with mediocre passing game.
Trent Frakin Dillweed man, come on!
I will admit, I hadn't seen a defense just flat out dominate like that since the 85 Bears.
I'm sorry but Ogden was one of the best left tackles to play in the last 20 years.
The Ravens had a great line and running game with mediocre passing game.
Trent Frakin Dillweed man, come on!
I will admit, I hadn't seen a defense just flat out dominate like that since the 85 Bears.
I understand your points and don't totally disagree but just look at the ranking in 2000.
Baltimore.
#1 in total defense
#14 in total offense. Lewis was only the 7th leading rusher that year. They were very, very good at rushing the ball. But it was still their defense that won that championship.
That stat of the #1 Defense and #14 offense kinda makes my point even more. An average offense and a great defense
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I'm sorry but Ogden was one of the best left tackles to play in the last 20 years.
The Ravens had a great line and running game with mediocre passing game.
Trent Frakin Dillweed man, come on!
I will admit, I hadn't seen a defense just flat out dominate like that since the 85 Bears.
I understand your points and don't totally disagree but just look at the ranking in 2000.
Baltimore.
#1 in total defense
#14 in total offense. Lewis was only the 7th leading rusher that year. They were very, very good at rushing the ball. But it was still their defense that won that championship.
That stat of the #1 Defense and #14 offense kinda makes my point even more. An average offense and a great defense
I understand your points and don't totally disagree but just look at the ranking in 2000.
Baltimore.
#1 in total defense
#14 in total offense. Lewis was only the 7th leading rusher that year. They were very, very good at rushing the ball. But it was still their defense that won that championship.
That stat of the #1 Defense and #14 offense kinda makes my point even more. An average offense and a great defense
It was the passing game that was dismal, the offensive line was nothing short of incredible.
Remember, Baltimore had 3 different qbs starting through the season because not one of them could step up and outright win the job.
Dillfer, Redmon and Banks all sucked it up pretty bad and if they had a real qb they would have won another 2 superbowls easy.
Lewis did finish 7th in rushing, and if they had someone to take the heat off of him it could have been higher.
I agree 100% though, it was their defense that won it all for them.
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Rex Hadnot had the fewest sacks allowed of all Brown's starters. He allowed 3 less sacks then JOE THOMAS DID! Rex is a great run blocker, I seen him every sunday just push people upfield, but he had to help Kevin and Fraley all day. With Mack in the middle (if he produces like he is advertised), Hadnot will only have to focus on helping the RT.
ANd don't give me some horsesheetz about they don't rush up the middle in 3-4's which we play against, because Steinbach gave up 3 sacks in only 3 starts.
Don't let name credibility fool you. Thomas & Steinbach were okay this past year, but nowhere near what they were in 2007 when our left side dominated. The entire line needs some discipline this year.
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A real RT?
If healthy, Tucker is our best OL. I believe that. The only question I would have is his age and if he's finally "lost a step". If not, he'll be starting at RT and we'll have the rest of the candidates competing for the RG spot. Tucker has ample pass protection skills and can flat out stomp in run blocking. I'm a big fan.
A real RT?
If healthy, Tucker is our best OL. I believe that. The only question I would have is his age and if he's finally "lost a step". If not, he'll be starting at RT and we'll have the rest of the candidates competing for the RG spot. Tucker has ample pass protection skills and can flat out stomp in run blocking. I'm a big fan.
Make no mistake, i like tucker as well.
I will also say i would like him better if he was 26.
My comment was based more on the long term rather than seeing if Tuck and band-aid together 1 more season.
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Rex Hadnot had the fewest sacks allowed of all Brown's starters. He allowed 3 less sacks then JOE THOMAS DID! Mario
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But Hadnot was not playing tackle in space. He was playing guard. See the diff?
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You are right on. If healthy tucker will start somewhere and that swomewhere depends on St. clair and Womack/Hadnot. Whomever performs better, will start next to Tucker. As far as Hadnot and his giving up sacks, we palyed 3-4 teams that don't rush the passer from the inside. Hadnot and Shaffer were pathetic in run blocking and below average in pass blocking. Hadnot may look a bit better with a strong center, but I really think it is Tuckers job and St clair will be given the shot at RT. Starting next to Tucker should help him a lot. In Chicago he was on an island at LT, he won't be here.
Look at it this way, if you go across from left to right you have four studs in a row with JT, Steiny, Mack and Tucker. If it's St. Clair that fills in we'll be able to pinpoint where we need help at RT and only in the passing game. Tucker will be able to help out from his guard spot whereas both center and RT will have to help out the RG spot. It's a no brainer to me, but it will be sorted out in camp. I thought I heard where Hadnot was coming in a new man this year in better shape, but I have no links to support that.
I still think Tucker is much more valuable a guard than tackle because it's his strength at this point in his career.
Look at it this way, if you go across from left to right you have four studs in a row with JT, Steiny, Mack and Tucker. If it's St. Clair that fills in we'll be able to pinpoint where we need help at RT and only in the passing game. Tucker will be able to help out from his guard spot whereas both center and RT will have to help out the RG spot. It's a no brainer to me, but it will be sorted out in camp. I thought I heard where Hadnot was coming in a new man this year in better shape, but I have no links to support that.
I still think Tucker is much more valuable a guard than tackle because it's his strength at this point in his career.
I think we are on the same page. I also think Tucker is a better RG at this point in his career and St Clair is solid. But, I also don't think Tucker will embarass himself if he has to move out to RT. Sorry but those who think Hadnot is even close to a healthy Tucker are fooling themselves.
Make no mistake, I think they should definately address RT at the next draft but we will be fine on the line this year. Mangini and Kokinis did a good job bringing in some solid backups that can step in and play , if needed, and they solidified the middle of the line. Nice job, now if they can figure out how to put some pressure on the QB, we will have a decent season.
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Rex Hadnot had the fewest sacks allowed of all Brown's starters. He allowed 3 less sacks then JOE THOMAS DID! Mario
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But Hadnot was not playing tackle in space. He was playing guard. See the diff?
Rex Hadnot had the fewest sacks allowed of all Brown's starters. He allowed 3 less sacks then JOE THOMAS DID! Mario
***********************
But Hadnot was not playing tackle in space. He was playing guard. See the diff?
Also, OT's don't normally get a lot of help. They are suppose to play in space and keep everything from going outside on Pass plays.
Guards on the other hand will get help from time to time from a center. They will be one on one as well but they do often get help from the center.
If you look at the stats, you'll never see guards with 10 to 12 sacks allowed like you do OT's.
I'm sure Steinbach loved the Browns #1 pick!
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Steeler SChuck said:
Over-rated.Our line is mediocre at best and we won 2 SB's with it.
A solid O-line is nice, but if you don't have players in other key spots, none of it means dick.
Regards
..... an'at
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I tend to disagree.
You had EXCELLENT runblockers on the line, it's just their pass protection was suspect.
However, Ben holding on to the ball as long as he does at times made their pass blocking look worse than it really was.
Another thing is both Big Gay Ben and Byron Leftwich have a slower wind up on their passes, once the tackles started carrying back their blocks an extra 3 feet they looked much better giving their qbs an extra second and a half.
I do agree with everyone else however, cohesion of the unit and the ability to work together as one is just as if not more important than the talent that encompasses it.
I tend to disagree.
You had EXCELLENT runblockers on the line, it's just their pass protection was suspect.
However, Ben holding on to the ball as long as he does at times made their pass blocking look worse than it really was.
Another thing is both Big Gay Ben and Byron Leftwich have a slower wind up on their passes, once the tackles started carrying back their blocks an extra 3 feet they looked much better giving their qbs an extra second and a half.
I do agree with everyone else however, cohesion of the unit and the ability to work together as one is just as if not more important than the talent that encompasses it.
That must explain why we were #23 in rushing last year.
Try watching some football for a change, it does wonders for your understanding of the game.
Regards
.... an'at
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So let me get this straight. According to Mario, Sexy Rexy Hadnot must be a better player than Joe Thomas because he technically gave up fewer sacks. Hell, I remember two of JT's sacks off the top of my head were from guys blowing assignments and him not being able to get there in time. That's the price you pay at tackle. Looks like there are still some guys who don't appreciate how badass JT is. I remember his first camp when guys were nitpicking the dude to death. My buddy and I were watching him thinking he was one of the best players we ever saw before he even played a regular season game. Wait until that dude gets a little older and stronger, he will go down as an alltime great.
Sometimes you can take all the stats in the world and flush them, they mean nothing. There are times it's just better to watch the games and go by what you see.
I am on the fence with Hadnot. I thought he was slightly fat and out of shape last year, which correlates directly to him signing a new contract and band camp with RAC 'n ROLLS. He also didn't have much help around him especially with Fraley and later with Kevvy Shafe. However, he was very slow laterally and didn't move his feet well nor get to the second level effectively. That wouldn't have been so bad if he was a legit plowhorse but he wasn't. I think dude can play if motivated and in shape but I don't think he's smart enough to play center, at least not by hearing him interviewed and what he showed last year. We know that Mancock likes guys to be able to spell, so who knows what they think of him.
There is an outside shot he gets cut if his cap hit isn't bad, but there is also a good chance he is a huge contributor before the year is out.
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