Great QB/mediocre defense vs. Great defense/mediocre QB

[The Gipper]

@bob806 said:

Bob Griese was ok, ike Rocky Blier. How they got into Canton is a mystery to me...nothing exceptional, just part of a great team.

Yes, in regards to Hostetler.

They? You mean "he"...Griese. Rocky Blier....good guy, good story....NOT in the HOF

[jrb12711]

@tour2ma said:

Fair enough...

Maybe we can get somewhere with a slight shift in the discussion from which is the more direct route to which is the easier, more likely route.

Which is the easier route to follow?

• Land a great QB and build a very good D, or...
• Build a great D and land a very good QB?

Again, it's looking at the breakdown really. I know this is a flawed view to look at it (to a point), but looking at the position a QB was drafted is interesting. Using my list:

Manning (x2)

Brady

Big Ben

Brees

Rodgers

Flacco

Wilson

Of those 8 guys, both Mannings were drafted first, Ben was 7th (or 8th without looking it up). I'd say those guys were pretty much "land a QB first".

Then you have Rodgers, Brees, and Flacco who were mid-to-late first round guys (Brees was technically a 2nd round pick at the time I know). That's a deeper question, but I'd still argue that's closer to "land a QB first".

Then you got Brady and Wilson, who by this definition were more of the "good defense first" group.

Again, this isn't the best way to look at it without a deeper scope of each of those teams when the dudes got drafted, but overall the answer to me is that it's pretty evenly split. In that regard, I'm fine with what the Browns appear to be doing in building the defense first.

[StinkHole]

@the-gipper said:

Who else in history fits the mold of either Great QB/mediocre defense, or Great defense/mediocre QB?

The 1995 Super Bowl Steelers

Names like Greg LLoyd, Rod Woodson, Kevin Greene, Carnell Lake, Levon Kirkland on D.

Neil O'Donnell at QB.

Shoulda beat Dallas. That Steeler team woulda came out of the 90's with at least one SB victory if they coulda had a stud QB.

[Zombo]

@stinkhole said:

The 1995 Super Bowl Steelers

Names like Greg LLoyd, Rod Woodson, Kevin Greene, Carnell Lake, Levon Kirkland on D.

Neil O'Donnell at QB.

Shoulda beat Dallas. That Steeler team woulda came out of the 90's with at least one SB victory if they coulda had a stud QB.

They were 5th in scoring offense, 9th in scoring defense.

And Dallas was a much better team, it was a weak year for the AFC, Dallas, Green Bay and SF were all better than Pittsburgh.

Zombo

[Flugel]

@ghoolie said:

Super Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDs

Super Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TD

Super Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDs

Super Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TD

Super Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TD

Super Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDs

Super Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TD

Super Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDs

What exactly did Bob Griese do in SB 8? For that matter, what did he do in 1972 when they went undefeated (while Griese missed 75% of that regular season)? Morris and Csonka both had over 1000 yards apiece while Jim Kiick added another 600 yards during that 14-0 regular season.

Posted: January 14, 1974

Super Bowl VIII

Miami 24, Minnesota 7

SuperBowl.com wire reports

Rice Stadium

Houston, Texas

January 13, 1974

Attendance: 71,882

MVP: Larry Csonka, RB, Miami

SCORING 1 2 3 4

Miami 14 3 7 0 24

Minnesota 0 0 0 7 7

1st Quarter

MIA Csonka 5 run (Yepremian kick), 5:27

MIA Kiick 1 run (Yepremian kick), 13:38

2nd Quarter

MIA FG Yepremian 28, 8:58

3rd Quarter

MIA Csonka 2 run (Yepremian kick), 6:16

4th Quarter

MIN Tarkenton 4 run (Cox kick), 1:35

[The Gipper]

@stinkhole said:

The 1995 Super Bowl Steelers

Names like Greg LLoyd, Rod Woodson, Kevin Greene, Carnell Lake, Levon Kirkland on D.

Neil O'Donnell at QB.

Shoulda beat Dallas. That Steeler team woulda came out of the 90's with at least one SB victory if they coulda had a stud QB.

Neil O'Donnell had a very, very uncharacteristic day that day. He has the lowest career int.% of any retired QB.....Only active players the likes of Rogers, Wilson, and Brady, Derek Carr, Bradford...and....Kaepernick have a better career low career int. %.

So, the 3 ints. he threw in that game were highly out of character.

So, if he had just done what was usually in his character, they may have won.

And the Indians should have won 3 WS since 1995. And the Browns should have won like 9 out of 10 championships back in the 50s.

But...shit happens.

[The Gipper]

@flugel said:

What exactly did Bob Griese do in SB 8? For that matter, what did he do in 1972 when they went undefeated (while Griese missed 75% of that regular season)? Morris and Csonka both had over 1000 yards apiece while Jim Kiick added another 600 yards during that 14-0 regular season.

Posted: January 14, 1974

Super Bowl VIII

Miami 24, Minnesota 7

SuperBowl.com wire reports

Rice Stadium

Houston, Texas

January 13, 1974

Attendance: 71,882

MVP: Larry Csonka, RB, Miami

SCORING 1 2 3 4

Miami 14 3 7 0 24

Minnesota 0 0 0 7 7

1st Quarter

MIA Csonka 5 run (Yepremian kick), 5:27

MIA Kiick 1 run (Yepremian kick), 13:38

2nd Quarter

MIA FG Yepremian 28, 8:58

3rd Quarter

MIA Csonka 2 run (Yepremian kick), 6:16

4th Quarter

MIN Tarkenton 4 run (Cox kick), 1:35

The thing that I can say about Griese is that he was the epitome of the "Game Manager" at QB. Hell...the term may have been invented for him. And for that he goes HOF.

He was a winner, if nothing else.

[Tour2ma]

@flugel said:

What exactly did Bob Griese do in SB 8? For that matter, what did he do in 1972 when they went undefeated (while Griese missed 75% of that regular season)?

@the-gipper said:

The thing that I can say about Griese is that he was the epitome of the "Game Manager" at QB. Hell...the term may have been invented for him.

Epitome could be Griese... but could be Starr.

A reasonable case can be made that Griese was the last of an era of game managing QBs. Might be Bradshaw, but he bridged into the passing era.

Prior to them the game-manager mode was the NFL norm and the gunslinger was the exception.

And now we are in an era when the elite are game-managing gunslingers.

[The Gipper]

@tour2ma said:

Epitome could be Griese... but could be Starr.

A reasonable case can be made that Griese was the last of an era of game managing QBs. Might be Bradshaw, but he bridged into the passing era.

Prior to them the game-manager mode was the NFL norm and the gunslinger was the exception.

And now we are in an era when the elite are game-managing gunslingers.

Yea, Starr could be that, indeed. (Opposed to say, Daryl Lamonica of the same era) But, to be honest....I never thought of Bradshaw as the "game manager" type. Always more the gunslinger type.

You have identified that there are "game manager" type QBs...and "gunslinger" type QBs...but AHA!!! you have left out another type of QB: The "system" quarterback!! What about those guys??

Some say that some QBs were only good in certain systems...and would have been average otherwise. Montana? Young?

...if not those two, who may have been well talented in any system....I think it CAN be said for their successor: Jeff Garcia.

[Tour2ma]

Lamonica is a great example of a gunslinger. Favre would be my choice to take the prototypical crown.

I pretty much think of "system" QBs, i.e., those that play within their offensive system, as game managers. But then I think most identifiable systems as being game-management oriented.

The WCO was perhaps the ultimate system and Montana the ultimate purveyor of that system. At it's heart the WCO was a ball control passing attack, a "game-managing" system using the short pass as an extended handoff.

Young was a different bred to be sure adding a QB's legs to the equation. Have to credit Walsh for seeing the potential of two such disparate QB skill sets to run his "system".

Garcia? An attempt to install a Young clone. Jeff had a good run. Not sure if he simply lacked the skill level or suffered from being an additional generation removed from the architect of the system.

Contrast the WCO with the "Run & Shoot" which was a far more aggressive, take your shots system.

[The Gipper]

Was the "Run and Shoot" ever actually implemented in the NFL? I know Kelly ran it when he was with the Houston Gamblers of the USFL...and went crazy....but that was a lesser league. Not sure it could...or did translate to the NFL.

[Tour2ma]

Oilers ran it under Warren Moon for a few seasons...

[Flugel]

@tour2ma said:

Epitome could be Griese... but could be Starr.

A reasonable case can be made that Griese was the last of an era of game managing QBs. Might be Bradshaw, but he bridged into the passing era.

Prior to them the game-manager mode was the NFL norm and the gunslinger was the exception.

And now we are in an era when the elite are game-managing gunslingers.

Well said. Both QBs had great lines, RBs/FBs and perimeter help as well as great coaching. It wasn't that I didn't like Griese but sometimes fans start judging QB greatness more on SB ring inventory than anything else. Anyone think Dan Fouts couldn't have won multiple Superbowls in Pittsburgh? Meanwhile, a lot of former League MVP QBs never get their teams to Superbowls. Elway was a betetr QB when he wasn't winning the Superbowl but he had more balanced teams when he did win the Superbowl. Doesn't Peyton Manning's last Superbowl in Denver remind us of that? The irony is Elway was the GM that brought him to Denver.

Getting back to what was placed around the game management of Griese, Starr and eventually Bradshaw - my hope is the FO has made this an easier team to QB for whoever wins the starting job. We added some veteran FA linemen that should really help us while I still think a draftee like Shon Coleman can provide reliability now that he's closer to 100%. Njoku should be a real nice target as should DeValve (with a year of experience now under his belt). Kenny Britt arrives with experience we didn't have lining up outside last year (coming off a career best in receptions, going over 1000 yards and scoring 1 more TD than Pryor despite 1 less start). We shall see which our 2016 WR draftees benefit most from 1 year of experience. Hopefully that offseason work Corey Coleman arranged for the WRs and Kessler also helps them. Meatball on spaghetti here, Crow returns as the starting RB coming off 4.8 yards per carry.

Stay tuned...

[Tour2ma]

@flugel said:

Well said. Both QBs had great lines, RBs/FBs and perimeter help as well as great coaching. It wasn't that I didn't like Griese but sometimes fans start judging QB greatness more on SB ring inventory than anything else. Anyone think Dan Fouts couldn't have won multiple Superbowls in Pittsburgh? Meanwhile, a lot of former League MVP QBs never get their teams to Superbowls. Elway was a betetr QB when he wasn't winning the Superbowl but he had more balanced teams when he did win the Superbowl. Doesn't Peyton Manning's last Superbowl in Denver remind us of that? The irony is Elway was the GM that brought him to Denver.

It's whether a QB can change his proverbial stripes, isn't it?

Elway did. Ben has. Manning did late, but in truth his physical limitations played a role. Could Fouts, Marino, and other gunslingers have done so? I can't be sure. The QB I see as King of the Gunslingers, Favre, barely held himself in check for a single super bowl season... and that was with Reggie White sitting on him.

I will say that at least there is some degree of choice involved in a gunslinger's decision. Same cannot be said for the game manager... at least not over the long haul. It should be easier for the physically gifted to dial down aggression, than for the limited to put a team on their back.