"Browns' hierarchy seems to prefer Derek Anderson over fan-favorite Brady Quinn"
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Zombo said:
Actually, up until the last decade it was a Who's Who of Super Bowl winning qbs:
Terry Bradshaw 1970
Jim Plunkett 1972
Archie Manning 1975
Steve Deberg 1978
Doug Williams 1979
Phil Simms 1980
John Elway 1983
Vinnie Testeverde 1988
Troy Aikman 1989
Trent Dilfer 1995
Kerry Collins 1997
Jake Plummer 1999
Jon Kitna 2000
Kyle Orton 2005
Bradshaw (4), Aikman (3), Plunkett (2), Elway (2), Simms (2), Williams and Dilfer combined to win 15 Super Bowls (if you count simms twice instead of once). Throw in Mark Rypien who became the lowest rated passer subsequent to winning a SB and you have 8 different guys that won SBs that were once the lowest passer in the league. Collins made it too. Manning, Deberg, Testeverde, Plummer and Kitna all had at least decent careers after being the worst, and Orton has the potential to have a decent career .... so DA is not alone that regard.
What those guys all had in common (except Rypien) was that they were young QBs on bad teams. That's what happens. When your #1 receiver can't catch a cold and your #2 is some guy named Steptoe and your o-line constantly caves on the right and up the middle, and your running back gets you maybe 3.5, and you play the Steelers and Ravens four times and the NFC East another four .... bad things happen.
Let's take the knife out of Derek. That team sucked. The offense, the defense, the coaching ... no one was going to survive in that offense ... and no one did.
Zombo
Most of that is all well and good, but it doesn't explain away the back half of DA's 2007 season. You can also break down most of those guys and see growth and improvement from start 1 to 25, as well as from HS to college, and college to the pros.
DA of course still has a chance to develop as a QB, but based on his track record, I will be surprised if it is ever greater than a marginal improvement.
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Zombo said:
Actually, up until the last decade it was a Who's Who of Super Bowl winning qbs:
Terry Bradshaw 1970
Jim Plunkett 1972
Archie Manning 1975
Steve Deberg 1978
Doug Williams 1979
Phil Simms 1980
John Elway 1983
Vinnie Testeverde 1988
Troy Aikman 1989
Trent Dilfer 1995
Kerry Collins 1997
Jake Plummer 1999
Jon Kitna 2000
Kyle Orton 2005
Bradshaw (4), Aikman (3), Plunkett (2), Elway (2), Simms (2), Williams and Dilfer combined to win 15 Super Bowls (if you count simms twice instead of once). Throw in Mark Rypien who became the lowest rated passer subsequent to winning a SB and you have 8 different guys that won SBs that were once the lowest passer in the league. Collins made it too. Manning, Deberg, Testeverde, Plummer and Kitna all had at least decent careers after being the worst, and Orton has the potential to have a decent career .... so DA is not alone that regard.
What those guys all had in common (except Rypien) was that they were young QBs on bad teams. That's what happens. When your #1 receiver can't catch a cold and your #2 is some guy named Steptoe and your o-line constantly caves on the right and up the middle, and your running back gets you maybe 3.5, and you play the Steelers and Ravens four times and the NFC East another four .... bad things happen.
Let's take the knife out of Derek. That team sucked. The offense, the defense, the coaching ... no one was going to survive in that offense ... and no one did.
Zombo
Most of that is all well and good, but it doesn't explain away the back half of DA's 2007 season. You can also break down most of those guys and see growth and improvement from start 1 to 25, as well as from HS to college, and college to the pros.
DA of course still has a chance to develop as a QB, but based on his track record, I will be surprised if it is ever greater than a marginal improvement.
Masters said:
Most of that is all well and good, but it doesn't explain away the back half of DA's 2007 season.the sleet vs the Jets, snow vs Buffalo, and wind in Cincy take care of that explanation.
it's tougher to pass in December. completion percentages go down. happens every year. happened to the QBs on the teams the Browns were playing against.
wanna guess Kellen Clemens' rating in the Jets game? Trent Edwards' rating in the buffalo game? Carson Palmer in Cincy? That's how it goes in weeks 14-15-16.
Quinn pumpers such as yourself just never paid any attention to QB stats before.
how's Quinn's qb rating trending by the way?
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okay so why don't you tell that to shep and his "GREATEST FIRST GAME AS A STARTER PASSER RATING IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF BROWNS FOOTBALL" argument?
DA's numbers mean something because he's played enough games. The numbers show a 32nd ranked passer.
Quinn's 104 doesn't mean anything from a mathematical standpoint, but it does give a glimpse into what could be. Nobody here is suggesting you plug in Quinn's 104 and therefore he is a top ranked NFL QB and a proven commodity. But most here agree the glimpse from his one healthy game gives weight to the idea he deserves a solid chance. His 104 was based on a few days of prep with minimal snaps with the starting team to that point. The other games his finger was broken.
Quinn will start.
Quinn's 104 doesn't mean anything from a mathematical standpoint, but it does give a glimpse into what could be.
Denver wasn't expecting the dink and dunk were they? Understandable, they only had 3 days to look at tape.
Too bad for him they figured him out by halftime.
It was all downhill from there. He hasn't thrown a TD since. 9 quarters.
Has DA ever gone 9 quarters without a TD pass? Maybe Greythan should look it up.
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Zombo said:
If I recall, we were 5-3 and he threw 10 or 12 TD passes in the back half of 2007, what needs to be explained?
It is what it is: he had a productive first year as a starter and then fell off last year when surrounded by a crumbling offense. He's inconsistent and sometimes erratic. He has a strong arm and has already won a number of games at 25.
He's not the messiah, he's not the devil, he's an interesting QB on the Cleveland Browns.
I feel like I always have to add "But I like Quinn better and think he is the long-term guy" to every DA post to make everyone feel better about it.
And I do like Quinn. If I had to pick one QB between the two to lead my team for the next 10 years, I'd put my money on Quinn.
But that doesn't mean that some of the criticism of DA isn't absurd. It is.
He's a young guy with a live arm that has had his ups and down. It's the NFL for god's sake. It's to be expected.
I'm glad he's still a Brown. He's talented and has potential.
The 08 Browns were garbage.
Zombo
I'll start by saying you don't need to add the disclaimer about Quinn vs. DA as long term guys. We are on the same page there.
I certainly don't think DA is the devil and do think some criticism of DA is absurd as well. But some of it is well merited.
As for the back stretch of 2007, over DA's last 7 starts he threw 9TD to 10 INTs, his Y/A began to decline, as did his Y/G. His QB then dropped down to the low 70's over that stretch. He then followed up in 2008 continueing that trend. While he certainly has the opportunity to make adjustments and improve, it doesn't follow the trend he's been on since surprising the league. Once they caught up to him, he hasn't made the adjustment to his game. It also follows the trend of the player he has been since HS.
I would never say DA doesn't have potential or talent. But lots of guys have that and never put it all together. We all know it take more than just physical skill to make it as a starting NFL QB.
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Masters said:
Most of that is all well and good, but it doesn't explain away the back half of DA's 2007 season.the sleet vs the Jets, snow vs Buffalo, and wind in Cincy take care of that explanation.
it's tougher to pass in December. completion percentages go down. happens every year. happened to the QBs on the teams the Browns were playing against.
wanna guess Kellen Clemens' rating in the Jets game? Trent Edwards' rating in the buffalo game? Carson Palmer in Cincy? That's how it goes in weeks 14-15-16.
Quinn pumpers such as yourself just never paid any attention to QB stats before.
how's Quinn's qb rating trending by the way?
the sleet vs the Jets, snow vs Buffalo, and wind in Cincy take care of that explanation.
it's tougher to pass in December. completion percentages go down. happens every year. happened to the QBs on the teams the Browns were playing against.
wanna guess Kellen Clemens' rating in the Jets game? Trent Edwards' rating in the buffalo game? Carson Palmer in Cincy? That's how it goes in weeks 14-15-16.
Quinn pumpers such as yourself just never paid any attention to QB stats before.
how's Quinn's qb rating trending by the way?
Of course it is tough to pass in DEC. No one said it isn't. But you can't wash that 4 INT game against Cincy away with the wind. Those picks weren't the wind taking the ball. Those balls were thrown right at Cincy defenders. Of course I actually watched the games.
Ah, falling back on the Quinn pumper thing. For about the 100th time, it ain't about Quinn. If he plays like DA over 25+ starts, I'd want to see the guy behind him too. Heck, I didn't even want to draft Quinn originally when CLE was only sitting with the 3rd pick in the 1st.
Well, seeing as how he has only played something to the effect of 6 healthy quarters, there isn't much to go on for a trend. Come ask me that around week 10 or 11 of this season.
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Quinn's 104 doesn't mean anything from a mathematical standpoint, but it does give a glimpse into what could be.
Denver wasn't expecting the dink and dunk were they? Understandable, they only had 3 days to look at tape.
Too bad for him they figured him out by halftime.
It was all downhill from there. He hasn't thrown a TD since. 9 quarters.
Has DA ever gone 9 quarters without a TD pass? Maybe Greythan should look it up.
Denver wasn't expecting the dink and dunk were they? Understandable, they only had 3 days to look at tape.
Too bad for him they figured him out by halftime.
It was all downhill from there. He hasn't thrown a TD since. 9 quarters.
Has DA ever gone 9 quarters without a TD pass? Maybe Greythan should look it up.
Actually that is exactly the O DEN would expect. That's what just about every team expects when they face a QB with no starting experience in the NFL. Short passes and a steady diet of the run. The only surprise was CLE throwing as much as they did early on.
Oh yeah, they figured him out by half time
That is why the second half featured a TD drive and a FG drive in 5 total 2nd half possession (and one of those failed 3 involved a fumble by Winslow in DEN territory). Watch the games will you.I don't care about TD passes as much as I care about TD scoring drives, and it was 9 quarters w/o a TD drive.
What I would like to see is DA go more than 4 quarters without throwing a pick. Heck I'd settle for 4 quarter w/o blowing an easy swing pass or 5 yard pass.
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@shepwrite said:
Zombo, I can't go with you on the notion that the whole Browns offense sucked when only 3 quarterbacks in the entire NFL were sacked less than Anderson, who went down only 14 times. He's been well protected throughout his fall-off that began around game 9 of he previous season.He gets protected very well... and he throws a lot of interceptions. Those two aren't supposed to go together.
In fairness Shep, part of the reason DA got sacked so little is he locks on to his target at the LOS and chucks the ball as soon as he hits that 3rd/5th step in his drop. Not that it is a good habit either.
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the sleet vs the Jets, snow vs Buffalo, and wind in Cincy take care of that explanation.
it's tougher to pass in December. completion percentages go down. happens every year. happened to the QBs on the teams the Browns were playing against.
wanna guess Kellen Clemens' rating in the Jets game? Trent Edwards' rating in the buffalo game? Carson Palmer in Cincy? That's how it goes in weeks 14-15-16.
Quinn pumpers such as yourself just never paid any attention to QB stats before.
how's Quinn's qb rating trending by the way?
Of course it is tough to pass in DEC. No one said it isn't. But you can't wash that 4 INT game against Cincy away with the wind. Those picks weren't the wind taking the ball. Those balls were thrown right at Cincy defenders. Of course I actually watched the games.
Ah, falling back on the Quinn pumper thing. For about the 100th time, it ain't about Quinn. If he plays like DA over 25+ starts, I'd want to see the guy behind him too. Heck, I didn't even want to draft Quinn originally when CLE was only sitting with the 3rd pick in the 1st.
Well, seeing as how he has only played something to the effect of 6 healthy quarters, there isn't much to go on for a trend. Come ask me that around week 10 or 11 of this season.
Masters said:
Well, seeing as how he has only played something to the effect of 6 healthy quarters, there isn't much to go on for a trend.yeah you can say "I think Brady will quit dinking and dunking soon" for years.
but Mangini isn't gonna sit around and wait like you would. nope, not when he's got a Pro Bowler on the roster, who ain't afraid to stand on the 50 and launch one into the end zone.
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the sleet vs the Jets, snow vs Buffalo, and wind in Cincy take care of that explanation.
it's tougher to pass in December. completion percentages go down. happens every year. happened to the QBs on the teams the Browns were playing against.
wanna guess Kellen Clemens' rating in the Jets game? Trent Edwards' rating in the buffalo game? Carson Palmer in Cincy? That's how it goes in weeks 14-15-16.
Quinn pumpers such as yourself just never paid any attention to QB stats before.
how's Quinn's qb rating trending by the way?
Of course it is tough to pass in DEC. No one said it isn't. But you can't wash that 4 INT game against Cincy away with the wind. Those picks weren't the wind taking the ball. Those balls were thrown right at Cincy defenders. Of course I actually watched the games.
Ah, falling back on the Quinn pumper thing. For about the 100th time, it ain't about Quinn. If he plays like DA over 25+ starts, I'd want to see the guy behind him too. Heck, I didn't even want to draft Quinn originally when CLE was only sitting with the 3rd pick in the 1st.
Well, seeing as how he has only played something to the effect of 6 healthy quarters, there isn't much to go on for a trend. Come ask me that around week 10 or 11 of this season.
Masters said:
Of course it is tough to pass in DEC. No one said it isn't. But you can't wash that 4 INT game against Cincy away with the wind. Those picks weren't the wind taking the ball. Those balls were thrown right at Cincy defenders. Of course I actually watched the games.Ah, falling back on the Quinn pumper thing. For about the 100th time, it ain't about Quinn. If he plays like DA over 25+ starts, I'd want to see the guy behind him too. Heck, I didn't even want to draft Quinn originally when CLE was only sitting with the 3rd pick in the 1st.
Well, seeing as how he has only played something to the effect of 6 healthy quarters, there isn't much to go on for a trend. Come ask me that around week 10 or 11 of this season.
Look at the play by play of the Cincy game. Cincinnati and Carson Palmer threw many more passes than the Browns and DA during the '07 season... during the game Carson's passes were going all over the place and their O coordinator shut down the passing game... Chud didn't. DA's 48 attempts to Palmer's 21 might have had something to do with the 4 ints. Palmer had 2 ints in 21 attempts and they shut down the passing game. Palmer even had a lower efficiency rating in that game than DA did (44 to DA's 53). Lewis was actually running pretty well that game, but the Browns coaching staff chose not to try to win it on the ground in what were horrible conditions for passing.
DA catches the blame for that game, but it should be on the coaches.
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Masters said:
Well, seeing as how he has only played something to the effect of 6 healthy quarters, there isn't much to go on for a trend.yeah you can say "I think Brady will quit dinking and dunking soon" for years.
but Mangini isn't gonna sit around and wait like you would. nope, not when he's got a Pro Bowler on the roster, who ain't afraid to stand on the 50 and launch one into the end zone.
yeah you can say "I think Brady will quit dinking and dunking" for years.
but Mangini isn't gonna sit around and wait like you would. nope, not when he's got a Pro Bowler on the roster, who ain't afraid to stand on the 50 and launch one into the end zone.
Way to make stuff up
I never said Quinn will quit dinking and dunking. Of course I can't base much on 1 healthy NFL start (which was his first). Of course his track record in college was not to dink and dunk solely. He's a take what the D give me QB, not a force the ball into triple coverage and get my receivers leveled QB. A guy who backed into the Pro Bowl based on his first 8 starts (not his last 7) is hardly having a Pro Bowler on the roster. And sweet mother of god, did you really just say "who ain't afraid to stand on the 50 and launch one into the end zone."? Do you even watch football on any level? That ain't exactly a play you use once a game, let alone multiple times in a whole season. But if your point is arm strength, I will again point you to utube so you can watch Quinn in college or his pro work out. I hate to break it to you, but Quinn can throw 50 yards on a line.
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Masters said:
Of course it is tough to pass in DEC. No one said it isn't. But you can't wash that 4 INT game against Cincy away with the wind. Those picks weren't the wind taking the ball. Those balls were thrown right at Cincy defenders. Of course I actually watched the games.Ah, falling back on the Quinn pumper thing. For about the 100th time, it ain't about Quinn. If he plays like DA over 25+ starts, I'd want to see the guy behind him too. Heck, I didn't even want to draft Quinn originally when CLE was only sitting with the 3rd pick in the 1st.
Well, seeing as how he has only played something to the effect of 6 healthy quarters, there isn't much to go on for a trend. Come ask me that around week 10 or 11 of this season.
Look at the play by play of the Cincy game. Cincinnati and Carson Palmer threw many more passes than the Browns and DA during the '07 season... during the game Carson's passes were going all over the place and their O coordinator shut down the passing game... Chud didn't. DA's 48 attempts to Palmer's 21 might have had something to do with the 4 ints. Palmer had 2 ints in 21 attempts and they shut down the passing game. Palmer even had a lower efficiency rating in that game than DA did (44 to DA's 53). Lewis was actually running pretty well that game, but the Browns coaching staff chose not to try to win it on the ground in what were horrible conditions for passing.
DA catches the blame for that game, but it should be on the coaches.
Look at the play by play of the Cincy game. Cincinnati and Carson Palmer threw many more passes than the Browns and DA during the '07 season... during the game Carson's passes were going all over the place and their O coordinator shut down the passing game... Chud didn't. DA's 48 attempts to Palmer's 21 might have had something to do with the 4 ints. Palmer had 2 ints in 21 attempts and they shut down the passing game. Palmer even had a lower efficiency rating in that game than DA did (44 to DA's 53). Lewis was actually running pretty well that game, but the Browns coaching staff chose not to try to win it on the ground in what were horrible conditions for passing.
DA catches the blame for that game, but it should be on the coaches.
For the loss, I'd put the blame on the staff. No question the game plan was bad. But for the 4 INTs, each one of those was on DA. They were never a case of the wind keeping the ball up (ala the red right 88 play) or it blowing of line. Those balls were straight up bad throws at defenders.
If we are going to bring up what Palmer did, I'd like to remind you that Carson was playing at the tail end of his first season back from his knee surgery. Where and fatigue from the season (rest and protecting Carson's repaired knee) could have as much to do with Cincy throwing less as the wind. Along with the fact that CLE couldn't stop the run to save their lives.
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Zombo,
Thanks for the GREAT post. Really, really surprising to me to be honest. That is a literal "who's who".
Does bring some perspective for me. I've stated my views on DA as "not being the answer". It still feels that way to me, but I sure don't have the stats on my side of that view. You've debunked the "lowest rated passer" argument. Good stuff.
The really enlightening thing about this is that Lum never raised this point. That guy really is a comical gnat at this point. Zero value other than entertainment (which is value, but of a different variety
).Again, thanks for the well research and well articulated post Mr. Z!
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yeah you can say "I think Brady will quit dinking and dunking" for years.
but Mangini isn't gonna sit around and wait like you would. nope, not when he's got a Pro Bowler on the roster, who ain't afraid to stand on the 50 and launch one into the end zone.
Way to make stuff up
I never said Quinn will quit dinking and dunking. Of course I can't base much on 1 healthy NFL start (which was his first). Of course his track record in college was not to dink and dunk solely. He's a take what the D give me QB, not a force the ball into triple coverage and get my receivers leveled QB. A guy who backed into the Pro Bowl based on his first 8 starts (not his last 7) is hardly having a Pro Bowler on the roster. And sweet mother of god, did you really just say "who ain't afraid to stand on the 50 and launch one into the end zone."? Do you even watch football on any level? That ain't exactly a play you use once a game, let alone multiple times in a whole season. But if your point is arm strength, I will again point you to utube so you can watch Quinn in college or his pro work out. I hate to break it to you, but Quinn can throw 50 yards on a line.
Masters said:
I hate to break it to you, but Quinn can throw 50 yards on a line.bullsheeeit
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does anybody know who lum is?
does anybody know who lum is?
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Zombo,
Thanks for the GREAT post. Really, really surprising to me to be honest. That is a literal "who's who".
Does bring some perspective for me. I've stated my views on DA as "not being the answer". It still feels that way to me, but I sure don't have the stats on my side of that view. You've debunked the "lowest rated passer" argument. Good stuff.
The really enlightening thing about this is that Lum never raised this point. That guy really is a comical gnat at this point. Zero value other than entertainment (which is value, but of a different variety
).Again, thanks for the well research and well articulated post Mr. Z!
-
Zombo,
Thanks for the GREAT post. Really, really surprising to me to be honest. That is a literal "who's who".
Does bring some perspective for me. I've stated my views on DA as "not being the answer". It still feels that way to me, but I sure don't have the stats on my side of that view. You've debunked the "lowest rated passer" argument. Good stuff.
The really enlightening thing about this is that Lum never raised this point. That guy really is a comical gnat at this point. Zero value other than entertainment (which is value, but of a different variety
).Again, thanks for the well research and well articulated post Mr. Z!
Zombo,
Thanks for the GREAT post. Really, really surprising to me to be honest. That is a literal "who's who".
Does bring some perspective for me. I've stated my views on DA as "not being the answer". It still feels that way to me, but I sure don't have the stats on my side of that view. You've debunked the "lowest rated passer" argument. Good stuff.
The really enlightening thing about this is that Lum never raised this point. That guy really is a comical gnat at this point. Zero value other than entertainment (which is value, but of a different variety
).Again, thanks for the well research and well articulated post Mr. Z!
uh...don't lose sight of the fact that some of those guys were rookies (whom you expect to perform poorly in their rookie season), and that list represents 30 years.
I'll bet the list of guys who sucked as passers one season and continued to suck is much, much longer.
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Look at the play by play of the Cincy game. Cincinnati and Carson Palmer threw many more passes than the Browns and DA during the '07 season... during the game Carson's passes were going all over the place and their O coordinator shut down the passing game... Chud didn't. DA's 48 attempts to Palmer's 21 might have had something to do with the 4 ints. Palmer had 2 ints in 21 attempts and they shut down the passing game. Palmer even had a lower efficiency rating in that game than DA did (44 to DA's 53). Lewis was actually running pretty well that game, but the Browns coaching staff chose not to try to win it on the ground in what were horrible conditions for passing.
DA catches the blame for that game, but it should be on the coaches.
For the loss, I'd put the blame on the staff. No question the game plan was bad. But for the 4 INTs, each one of those was on DA. They were never a case of the wind keeping the ball up (ala the red right 88 play) or it blowing of line. Those balls were straight up bad throws at defenders.
If we are going to bring up what Palmer did, I'd like to remind you that Carson was playing at the tail end of his first season back from his knee surgery. Where and fatigue from the season (rest and protecting Carson's repaired knee) could have as much to do with Cincy throwing less as the wind. Along with the fact that CLE couldn't stop the run to save their lives.
Masters said:
If we are going to bring up what Palmer did, I'd like to remind you that Carson was playing at the tail end of his first season back from his knee surgery. Where and fatigue from the season (rest and protecting Carson's repaired knee) could have as much to do with Cincy throwing less as the wind.Guess that explains his 97.2 rating the week prior and 121.4 rating the week following the Browns game.... not.
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Masters said:
I hate to break it to you, but Quinn can throw 50 yards on a line.bullsheeeit
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Masters said:
If we are going to bring up what Palmer did, I'd like to remind you that Carson was playing at the tail end of his first season back from his knee surgery. Where and fatigue from the season (rest and protecting Carson's repaired knee) could have as much to do with Cincy throwing less as the wind.Guess that explains his 97.2 rating the week prior and 121.4 rating the week following the Browns game.... not.
Guess that explains his 97.2 rating the week prior and 121.4 rating the week following the Browns game.... not.
I simply said it was a possibility, not an actuality. If you really want to go by QBR, well there is gonna be a big swing in those since the week before in SF (which is notoriously windy) and the one win Dolphins the following week, when in those games Palmer threw 4TDs to 1 INT (3 in MIA and 1 in SF), as compared to a 1TD to 2INT game against CLE. INTs have a huge impact on QBR.
Now why did you leave out the other part of my comment regarding running the ball agianst CLE because they can't stop the run?
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Guess that explains his 97.2 rating the week prior and 121.4 rating the week following the Browns game.... not.
I simply said it was a possibility, not an actuality. If you really want to go by QBR, well there is gonna be a big swing in those since the week before in SF (which is notoriously windy) and the one win Dolphins the following week, when in those games Palmer threw 4TDs to 1 INT (3 in MIA and 1 in SF), as compared to a 1TD to 2INT game against CLE. INTs have a huge impact on QBR.
Now why did you leave out the other part of my comment regarding running the ball agianst CLE because they can't stop the run?
Masters said:
I simply said it was a possibility, not an actuality. If you really want to go by QBR, well there is gonna be a big swing in those since the week before in SF (which is notoriously windy) and the one win Dolphins the following week, when in those games Palmer threw 4TDs to 1 INT (3 in MIA and 1 in SF), as compared to a 1TD to 2INT game against CLE. INTs have a huge impact on QBR.Now why did you leave out the other part of my comment regarding running the ball agianst CLE because they can't stop the run?
Why are you having a 'debate' with someone who didn't even watch the material? He's just throwing out bullshit hoping we will forget what actually happened in the game.
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