If you hate the Cleveland Browns rebuild, ignore this: Podcast

[Mudfly]

@texasag1969 said:

Under the proviso that we actually pick really well and far better than the normal "fail" rate.

and our FO has clearly stated that they cannot do that......which is why they need triple the picks everyone else needs.....

lets be clear......23 picks in 2 years(plus 15 FA's).....that is 37 hand picked players.....and a lot more than most teams get in 3 years.....so, technically, we should consider this equal to 3 drafts.....yet we see zero improvement in the win column......

[nickers]

@mudfly said:

and our FO has clearly stated that they cannot do that......which is why they need triple the picks everyone else needs.....

lets be clear......23 picks in 2 years(plus 15 FA's).....that is 37 hand picked players.....and a lot more than most teams get in 3 years.....so, technically, we should consider this equal to 3 drafts.....yet we see zero improvement in the win column......

Which still boggles my mind , as to why we hired harvard boys instead of real football people to procure talent..

[Mudfly]

They are so bad that they are showing madden highlights on their facebook page, promoting this weeks game......

You cannot make this schit up.....seriously....

https://www.facebook.com/clevelandbrowns/videos/10155971786799684/

[Mudfly]

@mudfly said:

Can somebody name one team that has stripped down(like the Browns have) then gone on to win a championship OR have "sustained" success....????......

Ill be waiting for an answer on this......a "quality" answer, that is/////

[Orion]

Here's a quote from mudfly on another thread

--------------

Here is a look at 2016 and 2017 top free agents we brought in(and lost)......for example.....contributing players are in red...

2016 Signed: Robert Earth Mover Griffin(gone), Demario Thomas(gone), Rahim Moore(gone), Justin Tuggle(gone), Alvin Bailey(gone), Don Jones(gone), Terrell Pryor(gone), Austin Paztor(gone).....and Jamal Taylor(the one and only still here....and kind of sucking right now)

2016 Lost: Mack, Schwartz, Gabriel, Benjiman, Robertson, Dansby, Gipson and Bademosi.....who are all contributing to better teams....and several are playing at a very high level right now....

Also lost Whitner, Bowe, Soloman and Manziel who all make sense....

So....2016....we let a bunch of good ones go and have benefitted exactly zero from the ones we signed.....and of the ones I see gone, Im not sure we have placed a "better" player at any of those positions.......I see 2 decent WR's(we have none).....I see 2 DB's that would, at least, add quality depth(and one who woulda started)....I see 2 LB's we coulds used.....

2017 signed.....J. Tretter(who isnt that good), Keven Zietler and Kenny Britt(terrible)

2017 we traded for Asspiler(gone), Calvin Pryor(gone), Sammy Coates (ugh)

2017 lost/released/traded....Greco(depth & versatility), Demario Thomas(last years "big" signing....traded for garbage and replaced by his backup Carder....as per usual), Pryor, Haden, Paztor.....

So....in 2 years we have signed or traded for 15 veteran players and have exactly 3 contributing(and our team bites....my grandma could contribute)....to me, that represents a team that is clueless...

------------------end quote.

I agree that we did not have to strip down the roster the way that the brainiacs did.   They think they're so friggin' smaaaat.

Other teams can use what they have and ADD talent to improve their team.  But the Harvard Think Tank thought they'd just trash the roster and bring in college kids from the 4th round and beat the rest of the league.

After letting our OL go to the crapper and SEEING for themselves what happened, they spent a kazzioion dollars on the OL to try and fix what they screwed up.  

At the moment the Harvard Think Tank doesn't look any smarter than graduates from an online college.

[TexasAg1969]

@orion said:

At the moment the Harvard Think Tank doesn't look any smarter than graduates from an online college.
 

All hail Trump U.

[wargograw]

@mudfly said:

Ill be waiting for an answer on this......a "quality" answer, that is/////

It’s never been tried. So while we can’t provide you a stripped down team that has had success, you also can’t provide a team that’s stripped their team down and NOT had success. 

[tiamat63]

Fine with the rebuild strategy.  I question the players we take and more importantly the ones we don't. 

[Dutch Oven]

@tiamat63 said:

Fine with the rebuild strategy.  I question the players we take and more importantly the ones we don't. 

Absolutely.

I didn't have a problem with the idea of a complete rebuild, but I do have a problem with the execution of it so far.

[gumby73]

@londonbrown said:

The problem with the fans and this plan is because they stripped the entire roster bare people seem to be expecting them to hit on EVERY draft pick. Or it’s a failure  

No front office gets it right every time and nor will this one. I’ve always thought  their idea of plan was the right one, I still do, but that doesn’t mean all the picks are going to work. They clearly won’t 

Right, Right, Your Bloody well right..Hail the King of London Games 

@mudfly said:

and our FO has clearly stated that they cannot do that......which is why they need triple the picks everyone else needs.....

lets be clear......23 picks in 2 years(plus 15 FA's).....that is 37 hand picked players.....and a lot more than most teams get in 3 years.....so, technically, we should consider this equal to 3 drafts.....yet we see zero improvement in the win column......

The wins should come Mud. Hue must get better in a lot of ways. Seems were either on The Highway to Hell trail or on the Fast Track to maybe more deserved Bitonio & Kirksey contract Extensions.. Light should shine brighter in next season. But it will take as always both drafting better pieces & more good FA additions such as Collins & maybe McCourty down the road..The TE Position looks promising for a while. Would you extend any of these Players? Duke,Telfer,Shelton,Orchard,Schobert,Campbell,Kindred,B.Calhoun,D.Alexander or Crow? Some boarder line players still in that group. These need just more field simmering to evaluate as a late riser as Kirksey did imo.. Naz,Ogbah,C.Coleman,Drango...I really like the early arrival of Shon Coleman & Ogunjobi..With this next QB class, why not 2? BTW-The next WR class may end up short of any NFL depth? Looks like the FO anal-lynic dept. is all over it taking some shots now..

[Furious Styles]

@westside-steve said:

Still if I'd been the general manager of the Cleveland Browns for the last decade or so  I don't suppose we'd have been much worse . Just saying.

WSS

I don't know you at all, but I bet if you were GM you could produce more than 1 win.

[Furious Styles]

@wargograw said:

It’s never been tried. So while we can’t provide you a stripped down team that has had success, you also can’t provide a team that’s stripped their team down and NOT had success. 

Browns ?

What we're seeing is BELOW expansion team quality.

Remember, Billy Beane, for all the "money ball" hype, never won a title.

[Tour2ma]

@canton-mike said:

Thanks for the thread Tour. I needed this.

My name is Tour... and I'm here to help.

@orion said:

Yes, Sashi and the Harvard Think Tank have a plan.  That's nice and all.  But are they the right people to be actually DRAFTING FOOTBALL PLAYERS?  AND NOT DRAFTING OTHER PLAYERS?  Are they the right talent evaluators? 

Well... they are NOT the people evaluating talent or drafting players... so there's that.

@londonbrown said:

The problem with the fans and this plan is because they stripped the entire roster bare people seem to be expecting them to hit on EVERY draft pick. Or it’s a failure  

No front office gets it right every time and nor will this one. I’ve always thought  their idea of plan was the right one, I still do, but that doesn’t mean all the picks are going to work. They clearly won’t 

Bingo... When I have some time I'll look back at our two drafts under this FO compared to the other 31 franchises. I think we'll look pretty damn good.

@westside-steve said:

Still if I'd been the general manager of the Cleveland Browns for the last decade or so  I don't suppose we'd have been much worse . Just saying.

lol... set a low bar much? Would you have been any better?

@wargograw said:

I think he’s wrong on that. We did need to strip them bare. Well, maybe not needed to. But it was certainly the best plan. Makes for more long term success. 

Agree... it was the point of the entire podcast.

You can (and we did) languish in the 3-7 win hell forever. We never built a nucleus. We stole wins with modest talent and a sprinkling of FAs were could lure thru a combo of money and personal relationships, e.g. hire staff who'd worked with FA's before.

It's purgatory... neither heaven nor hell.

[Orion]

@tour2ma said:

Well... they are NOT the people evaluating talent or drafting players... so there's that.

Really, who do YOU think is doing the drafting?

[Dutch Oven]

@furious-styles said:

Browns ?

What we're seeing is BELOW expansion team quality.

Remember, Billy Beane, for all the "money ball" hype, never won a title.

Theo Epstein has done very well using the same principles.

[Tour2ma]

@mudfly said:

Can somebody name one team that has stripped down(like the Browns have) then gone on to win a championship OR have "sustained" success....????......I already know the answer, which is no.....but I could name a 100 teams that have improved w/o stripping down.....one team please(and it should be a LOT more than one, if it's the "right" way to do it)

Please....someone....show me the precedent that says stripping down is the way to go.....

In the NFL? Closest I can come is the Colts. Didn't have to strip much with Manning on the shelf for a year, but it won them the Luck lottery. Also think if we look hard, and honestly, at Bill B's approach with the Browns of the early 90's we'd see strong elements of this approach... and that it was working.

MLB? Not enough room to list all the teams. But best example in recent history are the very scary Houston Astros.

@mudfly said:

Who wants to work for a company that is the worst in the industry?

We've been the worst for at least 14 of 18 years now. Congratulations... you've identified the exact reason your whole take is screwed up. Can't attract the best FAs when you're at the bottom... can't even make vets stay with you. No one... except maybe Joe... a loyalist if there ever was one.

You've "jumped"... you're now too far gone for me to elevate you. You decided when the FO chose the non-"one-football-guy-at-the -top, one-decider" approach we were destined to fail. It was the exact same moment I climbed aboard and embraced our new approach. Our chosen approach is simply not your style.

The next bit is for you... the last is an optional refresher...

@tour2ma said:

1. In the 2014 draft we only took 5 players because a full need assessment was not completed and scouting was incomplete. Delays in filling both staff and FO positions were the cause. Rather than guess, picks were limited and accumulated for 2015.

2. Prior to the start of the season by and large, I think even to the point of forming a consensus, that we here believed that we had improved our depth at least in part by picking more starter level talent. Only 2 rookie names appear under Pet's name: Shelton and Johnson.

Instead of the 2014 approach in 2016 we stocked up on picks and cast a wide net trying to shore up our WR. We seemed to have missed biggly, but we ID'd the nedd and took a series of low cost shots. We did not "punt" like Farmer did.

@nickers said:

Which still boggles my mind , as to why we hired harvard boys instead of real football people to procure talent..

See below... plenty of football people in our FO. And remember... we've bounced from "football guy" to football guy for almost two decades. I love that we are off that trampoline.

@tour2ma said:

No... Sashi is not the judge... not "The Decider"... and he is not polling 10 scouts. Stop trying to put him into the "weeds". This is consensus driven, organizational decision making, not the hierarchical dictate-driven system of Paul Brown or Bill Polian that you have stuck in your head.

• He has two heads of Scouting to produce two boards: one draft, one FA.
• He has an Analytics group to produce the same two boards.
• He facilitates the merging of the boards with Cap input to develop a Player Personnel Strategy.

In the first two activities, he won't be in the working sessions. On those he'll get progress reports. He will sit in the independent meetings to formulate each group's final board. He may or may not participate in these, but to the extent he does it will be to drive the process, not its product. He will take a ton of notes.

In the third activity, the merger process, he'll not only be in the meeting, he will drive it, run it looking for:

• unanimity, either pro or con, which he will test for "groupthink" error.
• general, but not strong, agreement that he needs to flesh out.
• strong disagreement to probe.

This is when his notes will come out. He'll use them to:

• surface dissenting views he heard in the pre-meetings to test what he now hears... especially if unanimity is now all he is hearing.
• develop general agreements in to solid positions all can live with, i.e., form consensus.
• facilitate strong disagreement discussion to develop the each side's understanding of the others position and see if there's hope for consensus and recognize when there is no hope.

Consensus may come in many forms. In the discussion one side might "win over" the other... as in "convince", not "beat". More likely would be adjusting a player's grouping on the final board... as in "if he falls to us here," or "if he accepts this lower offer."

But sometimes consensus will not be reached; a significant divide will persist. The default position for that case should be to pass on a player and in his stead go after a consensus choice.

I guarantee you it will not be Sashi mulling a split-decision case over and then taking it to Jimmah. Simply is not Sashi's role and he knows it. He also knows it's not Jimmah's role.

Jimmah? His can be any role he wants it to be, but hopefully he's learned his limitations. And the above process is our greatest hope that Jimmah remembers lessons of the past.

The above process means that when the full Player Personnel Strategy (including budget) is presented to Jimmah by Sashi and the departments heads, if/when Jimmah asks, "Why is Player X (who he just read Mel Kiper rave about on the flight to Berea) is so low on our Board?" The group can respond, "WE don't think he's worth the higher pick/offer because..."

... and ...

@tour2ma said:

Nah... we don't have a single "the one". But there is the "old dogs, new tricks" thing and someone who has been "the one" would have the most trouble adapting to a consensus approach. That said I think consensus applies to our cross-functional approach more it does within a given department.

In a department I would first and foremost want to avoid "group-think". I would want independent voices championing, or campaigning against, individual players. Not to the level of pound-on-the-table, at least not as a constant diet, but I would want clear positioning on every assigned evaluation. Then I can evaluate my evaluators on a rotating basis, culling those with substandard track records. It's really no different than turning over rostered players. And while I doubt it's an revolutionary approach, it is one I would be sure was ingrained in my org.

So I think the question is: what was Ron Hill's track record? It would seem to not be one that will be missed. Same for the dismissals that preceded him... at least that's the hope in the majority of cases. But some dismissals are certainly also influenced by the extent that they, including Ron, played well with others, i.e., knew when to stop pounding the table. Or in an extreme case aired their minority opinions outside the building.... ours of which has been pretty air tight... aside from the whole "wreck this league" bit now a couple years gone by.

Harder to let go of things when you've been the one.

The italicized bit is one of the things that excites me. We are creating a scouting group the same way we are a football team.

[Tour2ma]

@orion said:

Really, who do YOU think is doing the drafting?

See above, if you've not already...

[nickers]

@tour2ma said:

In the NFL? Closest I can come is the Colts. Didn't have to strip much with Manning on the shelf for a year, but it won them the Luck lottery. Also think if we look hard, and honestly, at Bill B's approach with the Browns of the early 90's we'd see strong elements of this approach... and that it was working.

MLB? Not enough room to list all the teams. But best example in recent history are the very scary Houston Astros.

We've been the worst for at least 14 of 18 years now. Congratulations... you've identified the exact reason your whole take is screwed up. Can't attract the best FAs when you're at the bottom... can't even make vets stay with you. No one... except maybe Joe... a loyalist if there ever was one.

You've "jumped"... you're now too far gone for me to elevate you. You decided when the FO chose the non-"one-football-guy-at-the -top, one-decider" approach we were destined to fail. It was the exact same moment I climbed aboard and embraced our new approach. Our chosen approach is simply not your style.

The next bit is for you... the last is an optional refresher...

Instead of the 2014 approach in 2016 we stocked up on picks and cast a wide net trying to shore up our WR. We seemed to have missed biggly, but we ID'd the nedd and took a series of low cost shots. We did not "punt" like Farmer did.

See below... plenty of football people in our FO. And remember... we've bounced from "football guy" to football guy for almost two decades. I love that we are off that trampoline.

... and ...

The italicized bit is one of the things that excites me. We are creating a scouting group the same way we are a football team.

Andrew Berry is not My idea of Football people.. Hes a dullard...

[gumby73]

My names Tour & am here to help. Some wake at 6am to put the college football hangovers to rest & instead its Quiet Riot's Bang Your Head!! Yes we must Give this Plan Time for results..Mean While- We have watched the Cowboys walk into a lucky Wet Dream Draft. 2 GM's that create rosters that win both on the sidelines in Panthers Dave Gettelman-Just don't get use to keeping aging veterans..Than KC John Dorsey who actually drafted Mahomes & K.Hunt than gets fired then the new genius GM trades with us for Cam-ella Erving..It's damn hard to watch as we sit on a Baseball Guy, Berry & Grigson with a wild fire of coffee fetchers..Rant-diculous is over.but really hard to watch. time to take it out on some pancakes.. 

[gumby73]

@westside-steve said:

Still if I'd been the general manager of the Cleveland Browns for the last decade or so  I don't suppose we'd have been much worse . Just saying.

WSS

No doubt you could do it WestSide..But get this Orangutan Grigson to grow some long Hair..Grigson got so jealous of this pick guess where Zach Banner plays?