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P5 or not P5 That is the question

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  • The GipperT The Gipper wrote on
    #1

    Issues and discussions are being had about some of these QB prospects...and their level of competition, the presumption being that any QB from a non P5 school should perhaps be looked at askance give their level of competition.   

    So...should we expect a P5 level QB to be superior than a non P5 guy?    I don't honestly know the answer to that.   All I can do is look at various points of data.

    Here is one...very basic...data point.   Hall of Fame QBs.    Which have been from P5 schools...which are not. Note...for this purpose...because it is also designated that way....Independents Notre Dame and BYU are classified as part of the P5 programs.

    P5:  27 QBs come from P5 schools:

    UCLA:  Aikman and Waterfield

    Kentucky:  Blanda

    Purdue:  Dawson and Griese

    Stanford:  Elway

    Oregon: Fouts and Van Brocklin

    Northwestern:  Otto Graham and Paddy Driscoll

    Duke:  Jurgenson and Clarence Parker

    Miami, Fla.   Jim Kelly

    Texas:  Bobby Layne

    Pitt: Marino

    Notre Dame:   Montana

    Washington: Moon

    Alabama:  Starr, Stabler, Namath

    Georgia: Tarkenton

    LSU:  Tittle

    Louisville: Unitas

    BYU: Young

    Wisconsin:  Herber

    Michigan: Friedman

    TCU: Sammy Baugh

    NON P5 QBs:   there are 7 of these:

    La. Tech:  Bradshaw

    So. Miss:  Favre

    Navy: Staubach

    Norther Iowa:  Warner

    Columbia:  Luckman

    Washington of St. Louis: Jimmy Conzelman

    Colorado College: Earl Clark    (this is not the same as Colorado Univ.)

    So...the count is 27 P5 vs. 7 Non P5      So, by this measure.....P5 QBs have almost a 5-1 edge on Non P5 QBs.    20.5% are non P5.

  • The GipperT The Gipper wrote on
    #2

    How about another, totally unscientific measure:    Super Bowl Wins by a starting QB:

    P5....QBs from these schools   (again, includes ND and BYU)   have 37 SB wins:

    Notre Dame:  5....Montana and Theisman

    Michigan: 5....Brady

    Alabama:  4...Starr, Namath, Stabler

    Purdue: 4....Dawson, Griese, Brees

    Stanford: 4....Plunkett and Elway

    UCLA:  3...Aikman

    Tennessee: 2...Peyton

    Ole Miss: 2....Eli

    BYU: 2   Young and McMahon

    Cal: 1: Rodgers

    FSU: 1....Brad Johnson

    Louisville: 1...Unitas

    Washington St.: 1....Rypien

    West Virg.  1....Hostetler

    Wisconsin: 1....Wilson

    NON P5  Super Bowl winning QBs:  have 14 SB wins.

    La. Tech.  4....Bradshaw

    Miami, Oh...2   Ben R.

    Navy: 2...Staubach

    Delaware: 1....Flacco

    Fresno St:  1....Dilfer

    Grambling: 1....Doug Williams

    Morehead st: 1.. Phil Simms

    No. Iowa:  1...Kurt Warner

    So. Miss.:  1...Favre.

    So...there were 37 Super Bowl wins by  P5 QBs...and 14 by Non P5 QBs.

    This is actually a little better ratio than the HOF numbers:

    Non P5  HOF QBs:    20.5%

    Non P5 Super Bowl winning QBs:  27.4%

  • The GipperT The Gipper wrote on
    #3

    One Final  Measurement Stat:    the PFR  Career Average stat.    Notes on this:  It is supposed to measure career total production....so longevity counts.  Also.....it is more skewed to more modern QBs because the PFR was not applied before like the late 50s or so.   So you not see the likes of Graham, Baugh, Luckman on here.

    What I have done is list simply those QBs that appear in the Top 150 players in Career Average.   I will note first there overall player ranking, school, name:

    P5 QBs  who are tops in Career Production Average:

    1. Tennessee:  Peyton Manning

    2. Michigan: Tom Brady

    5. Purdue:  Drew Brees

    6. Georgia:  Fran Tarkenton

    10. Pitt: Dan Marino

    12. Stanford:  John Elway

    19. NC State:  Phillip Rivers

    T21.  BYU: Steve Young

    26. Washington:  Warren Moon

    29. Notre Dame:  Joe Montana

    33. Oregon: Dan Fouts

    45. Cal:  Aaron Rodgers

    T54. Ole Miss:  Eli Manning

    T54.  Boston College:  Matt Ryan

    72. Louisville:  Johnny Unitas

    74. Purdue:  Len Dawson

    77. Kansas:  John Hadl

    T78.  USC: Carson Palmer

    T78. Miami Fla:  Vinny Testaverde

    T88. Purdue:  Bob Griese

    T88. Duke: Sonny Jurgenson

    T93. Syracuse:  Donovan McNabb

    103. Washington State: Drew Bledsoe

    T108. Maryland:  Boomer Esiason

    126:  Miami Fla: Jim Kelly

    129. NC State: Roman Gabriel

    138: Stanford:  John Brodie

    NON P5 QBs in the Top 150 of PFR Career Average:

    3. So. Miss.   Brett Favre

    T21. Miami, Oh.  Ben R.

    34. Augustana College:   Ken Anderson

    T93:  Milton College:  Dave Kreig

    T103: La. Tech:  Terry Bradshaw\

    T108: So. Illinois:  Jim Hart

    145.  Navy:  Roger Staubach

    Bizarrely....these numbers come out exactly the same way as the HOF QB numbers do...even though...as I said, this stat is more geared to more recent times:

    There are 27 P5 QBs that appear in the PFR CA Top 150...and there are 7 Non  P5 school QBs  that appear there.  (only Favre, Stauback and Bradshaw are the same here)

    To repeat those percentages:  20.5% of  PFR Top 150 QBs are from Non P5 schools. 

  • mjp28M mjp28 wrote on
    #4

    I find that quite interesting from what you think the numbers would show and what they really are. Nice.

    GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND!
  • Z Zombo wrote on
    #5

    Is BYU considered Power 5?

    Zombo

  • Z Zombo

    Is BYU considered Power 5?

    Zombo

    The GipperT The Gipper wrote on
    #6

    Zombo said:

    Is BYU considered Power 5?

    Zombo

    I believe it is....as I said, like Notre Dame.  I will check.  Here is some info:

    BYU[edit]

    During the conference realignment that saw the university choose football independence in August 2010, some saw BYU as a potential future "Notre Dame of the West". Both are prominent faith-based schools; Notre Dame is arguably the best-known Catholic university in the U.S., while BYU is the flagship university of the LDS Church. The 1984 team's national championship is the most recent by a university that is not a current member of the College Football Playoff coalition.

    BYU was earning less than $2 million a year through its contract with The MTN, the now-defunct TV network of the Mountain West Conference. BYU has its own cable channel,[13] but had a very restrictive contract which did not allow BYU to broadcast its own football games.[14] The new contract with ESPN will pay BYU an estimated $800,000 to $1.2 million per home game,[15] and allow for greater freedom with its own channel.

    So...I don't know.  I think if they didn't want to be known as "The Notre Dame of the West"...they could join one of the P5.....either the Pac 12 or the Big 12.  

  • mjp28M mjp28 wrote on
    #7

    ........BYU was earning less than $2 million a year through its contract with The MTN, the now-defunct TV network of the Mountain West Conference. BYU has its own cable channel,[13] but had a very restrictive contract which did not allow BYU to broadcast its own football games.[14] The new contract with ESPN will pay BYU an estimated $800,000 to $1.2 million per home game,[15] and allow for greater freedom with its own channel.......

    When you talk about P5 or elite college football this is the underlying driving force and has been for awhile now.

    It costs money to compete now in facilities, salaries and all the other amenities, it's not just the old ABC and Keith Jackson anymore, did you ever picture the B1G on FOX?

    GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND!
  • The GipperT The Gipper wrote on
    #8

    It costs money to compete now in facilities, salaries and all the other amenities, it's not just the old ABC and Keith Jackson anymore, did you ever picture the B1G on FOX?

    Fox didn't exist as a network until the mid 90s.  But yes, certainly you could have pictured the Big Ten on any of the networks.  Why not?

    mjp28M 1 Reply
  • Tour2maT Tour2ma wrote on
    #9

    BYU was an independent ala ND for a very long time, wasn't it?

    Not surprising that P5s dominate QB production... just as they dominate production of every other position.

    The best programs draw the best talent from HS.

    The best programs are P5 programs.

    QED

    "When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
  • The GipperT The Gipper

    It costs money to compete now in facilities, salaries and all the other amenities, it's not just the old ABC and Keith Jackson anymore, did you ever picture the B1G on FOX?

    Fox didn't exist as a network until the mid 90s.  But yes, certainly you could have pictured the Big Ten on any of the networks.  Why not?

    mjp28M mjp28 wrote on
    #10

    @the-gipper said:

    It costs money to compete now in facilities, salaries and all the other amenities, it's not just the old ABC and Keith Jackson anymore, did you ever picture the B1G on FOX?

    Fox didn't exist as a network until the mid 90s.  But yes, certainly you could have pictured the Big Ten on any of the networks.  Why not?

    I always pictured the old guard BIG TEN as in the ABC/ESPN family forever......but I guess everything has it's price.

    GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND!
  • Tour2maT Tour2ma wrote on
    #11

    I'm still freaked when I have to tune to CBS for AFC games...

    "When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
  • Tour2maT Tour2ma

    I'm still freaked when I have to tune to CBS for AFC games...

    mjp28M mjp28 wrote on
    #12

    @tour2ma said:

    I'm still freaked when I have to tune to CBS for AFC games...

    And FOX didn't even have a real sports division when they got the NFL deal.....and then key CBS talent came over to FOX. NBC later ended up out of professional football! 

    Who knew?

     .......To the surprise and shock of many in the sports and media industries, on December 17, 1993, the NFL selected the bid offered by Fox, in the process stripping CBS of football for the first time since 1956.......

    GO BUCKEYES, BROWNS, INDIANS, CAVS, YSU, NAVY and yes I like ND!
  • GhoolieG Ghoolie wrote on
    #13

    Gip,

    nice thread. Really. You are football intense for sure. God bless ya man.

    For me, p5 non p5 doesn't matter. The glaring problem the Browns have is that they continue to purposely not participate in drafting the best playmakers. Sorry, but having 2 #1 picks and coming away with Coleman and Garrett? The Browns have had more high 1st round picks than anyone, for 18 years now, no NFL team has gotten less out of their draft.

    The Cleveland Browns have the hardest hit players in the NFL
  • W wargograw wrote on
    #14

    Obviously, BYU doesn't have a conference. Technically they do however play a schedule that, if gone undefeated through, would put them in the national championship, so I suppose they are P5.

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