Cousins would "seriously consider" the Browns
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I never said he was in that league, but he is a top 10-12 guy and he can get us to the playoffs.
We're a rebuilding team and the bar is too low? What if our draft pick sucks? Alex Smith isn't going to make this team much better. So we suffer for 3 more years instead of watching a competent offense.
We have talent in this team, and we should get a ton more this off-season. Cousins could make us contenders in the AFCN with in a year or 2. I'm tired of Cleveland being the laughing stock of the NFL. Let's bring in the best talent available and win some games
Obviously you weren't listening when I directed a comment in your direction. You want wins- any wins- and screw the long term consequences.
Regarding top 10-12 guys so is Alex Smith. Man- you just want Cousins so bad, you can't even see there's other options out there. Cousins is not significantly better than Smith, and sorry if you're totally in denial about that. Smith can get us to the same place- without the long term commitment.
Two years of Smith- $45 million max. Cousins $95 million guaranteed minimum- for the same level of talent. You just flunked accounting 101.
+++ Apparently you're afraid we're going to mess up another #1 overall QB pick.
Obviously you weren't listening when I directed a comment in your direction. You want wins- any wins- and screw the long term consequences.
Regarding top 10-12 guys so is Alex Smith. Man- you just want Cousins so bad, you can't even see there's other options out there. Cousins is not significantly better than Smith, and sorry if you're totally in denial about that. Smith can get us to the same place- without the long term commitment.
Two years of Smith- $45 million max. Cousins $95 million guaranteed minimum- for the same level of talent. You just flunked accounting 101.
+++ Apparently you're afraid we're going to mess up another #1 overall QB pick.
Cousins isn't significantly better? How many games do you think Smith would have won if he was in Washington? Cousins didnt have Travis Kelce, Tyreek Hill, Kareem Hunt, or a top notch defense. Somehow how he put up better numbers evert year.
I'm not trying to make Cousins something he's not, hes good, not elite. On the other hand you are making a case for a guy that only plays well in the right system surrounded with top level talent. We don't run that kind of offense and we don't have that level of talent.
We could still take a QB 1st overall if we feel that he is the best option. Cousins will likely get a 5 year deal with little garuntees in the last 2 years of the deal. The guy we draft will have a 4 year deal with a 5th year option. So if cousins gives us 3 years of breathing room while we develop our guy we could potentially move him with little cap damage and have out QB of the future. Isn't that what you want from Smith? This way we get a better player who has shown he can win on a team of our caliber
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Looks like Joe's switching horses since it looks like Drew Brees isn't coming to Cleveland anytime soon.
On Cousins... there were some comments that make up my take. His redzone performance concerns me. His price tag promises to be way out of line with his W/L impact.
As for the Cousins/Smith debate... In 2017 Smith was the league's top QB in deep throw efficiency... something both Hue and Todd value.
Looks like Joe's switching horses since it looks like Drew Brees isn't coming to Cleveland anytime soon.
On Cousins... there were some comments that make up my take. His redzone performance concerns me. His price tag promises to be way out of line with his W/L impact.
As for the Cousins/Smith debate... In 2017 Smith was the league's top QB in deep throw efficiency... something both Hue and Todd value.
2017 is a good indicator of Smith's play style. He's been in the league for a long time and he's a well known dink and dunk kind of guy. It's hard to belive he developed the deep ball at 33 years old.
Money shouldn't be an issue if you have more than enough and the player wins games.
Cousins redzone # arent thagt bad. He definitely has room for improvement but it may have something to do with his recivers being on the smaller side. Cousins primary targets have been Crowder, Garcon, Desean Jackson, Jordan Reed. None of these guys are particularly good red zone targets. Even their TE Reed is in the shorter side and plays like a possesson receiver.
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Obviously you weren't listening when I directed a comment in your direction. You want wins- any wins- and screw the long term consequences.
Regarding top 10-12 guys so is Alex Smith. Man- you just want Cousins so bad, you can't even see there's other options out there. Cousins is not significantly better than Smith, and sorry if you're totally in denial about that. Smith can get us to the same place- without the long term commitment.
Two years of Smith- $45 million max. Cousins $95 million guaranteed minimum- for the same level of talent. You just flunked accounting 101.
+++ Apparently you're afraid we're going to mess up another #1 overall QB pick.
Cousins isn't significantly better? How many games do you think Smith would have won if he was in Washington? Cousins didnt have Travis Kelce, Tyreek Hill, Kareem Hunt, or a top notch defense. Somehow how he put up better numbers evert year.
I'm not trying to make Cousins something he's not, hes good, not elite. On the other hand you are making a case for a guy that only plays well in the right system surrounded with top level talent. We don't run that kind of offense and we don't have that level of talent.
We could still take a QB 1st overall if we feel that he is the best option. Cousins will likely get a 5 year deal with little garuntees in the last 2 years of the deal. The guy we draft will have a 4 year deal with a 5th year option. So if cousins gives us 3 years of breathing room while we develop our guy we could potentially move him with little cap damage and have out QB of the future. Isn't that what you want from Smith? This way we get a better player who has shown he can win on a team of our caliber
I'm not trying to make Cousins something he's not, hes good, not elite. On the other hand you are making a case for a guy that only plays well in the right system surrounded with top level talent. We don't run that kind of offense and we don't have that level of talent.
We could still take a QB 1st overall if we feel that he is the best option. Cousins will likely get a 5 year deal with little garuntees in the last 2 years of the deal. The guy we draft will have a 4 year deal with a 5th year option. So if cousins gives us 3 years of breathing room while we develop our guy we could potentially move him with little cap damage and have out QB of the future. Isn't that what you want from Smith? This way we get a better player who has shown he can win on a team of our caliber
That's where we'll have to disagree. You're willing to pay a "good" player "elite" money. Said it before, bad economics. Cousins a better player? His potential contract is "face of the Franchise". If you're going to stick to your guns that Cousins is better, I'm not going to debate you anymore on that. Ha, so exactly how many more wins is Cousins good for than Smith at twice the price? Two? Let Denver take the guy for a one last shot at the SB. @ 30 years old really think he's going to want to walk into a multi year rebuild with the Browns?
2017 is a good indicator of Smith's play style. He's been in the league for a long time and he's a well known dink and dunk kind of guy. It's hard to belive he developed the deep ball at 33 years old.
Money shouldn't be an issue if you have more than enough and the player wins games.
Cousins redzone # arent thagt bad. He definitely has room for improvement but it may have something to do with his recivers being on the smaller side. Cousins primary targets have been Crowder, Garcon, Desean Jackson, Jordan Reed. None of these guys are particularly good red zone targets. Even their TE Reed is in the shorter side and plays like a possesson receiver.
Yeah, I'd like to see wins too. Seeing a lot of them next year with Cousins is about as likely as Jimmy giving me a 50% price break on my season tickets.
Money is an issue if you don't want to put your team in cap hell down the road. I'll give you a couple fer instances. Garrett turns into another Bruce Smith- got some space for a Suh contract? Gordon reverts to his pro bowl form and stays off of drugs = top 5 WR money. We're going to have a bunch of guys a few years down the road coming off their rookie deals- (like Schobert) and if we want to keep them, we had better have the cap room to do so.
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Looks like Joe's switching horses since it looks like Drew Brees isn't coming to Cleveland anytime soon.
On Cousins... there were some comments that make up my take. His redzone performance concerns me. His price tag promises to be way out of line with his W/L impact.
As for the Cousins/Smith debate... In 2017 Smith was the league's top QB in deep throw efficiency... something both Hue and Todd value.
2017 is a good indicator of Smith's play style. He's been in the league for a long time and he's a well known dink and dunk kind of guy. It's hard to belive he developed the deep ball at 33 years old.
Money shouldn't be an issue if you have more than enough and the player wins games.
Cousins redzone # arent thagt bad. He definitely has room for improvement but it may have something to do with his recivers being on the smaller side. Cousins primary targets have been Crowder, Garcon, Desean Jackson, Jordan Reed. None of these guys are particularly good red zone targets. Even their TE Reed is in the shorter side and plays like a possesson receiver.
2017 is a good indicator of Smith's play style. He's been in the league for a long time and he's a well known dink and dunk kind of guy. It's hard to belive he developed the deep ball at 33 years old.
Money shouldn't be an issue if you have more than enough and the player wins games.
Cousins redzone # arent thagt bad. He definitely has room for improvement but it may have something to do with his recivers being on the smaller side. Cousins primary targets have been Crowder, Garcon, Desean Jackson, Jordan Reed. None of these guys are particularly good red zone targets. Even their TE Reed is in the shorter side and plays like a possesson receiver.
Could be that Smith had untapped deep ball ability all along.
Quickest way I can think of to make all that cap space disappear is to start by overpaying a QB.
In 2016 Cousins was the 3rd worst full time starter in redzone completion percentage at 44%. In 2017 he rose to T-7th worst at 50%. He did have a good 2015, his first full season, when his 60% clip put him in the top 5.
His 2016 showing inspired the following November article...
Kirk Cousins has been the NFL’s worst red zone QB, and it’s not close
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Cousins is an established loser. Give a rookie a shot. Maybe he actually wins a playoff game.
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We have 118 million in cap space. If we spend 30m on a QB we still have a ton of cap space. We could make Garrett and Gordon the highest paid players at their positions and still have enough money to bring in some free agents. Not to mention were going to lose other players in the next couple of years like Thomas, McCourty, and others who don't live up to their contract or aren't good fits.
Spending on a QB won't hurt us unless we get carried away in free agency. Getting a QB is the easiest way to get wins and Cousins wins games.
I know I'm coming off as Cousins fan boy, but I'm not. I am anti- Smith because I've watched him play since he was drafted. He would be a waste of money that won't get us in a position to get into the playoffs. If your looking for someone to take lumps until the rookie is ready just throw Kizer out there. It won't cost us anything and we weren't going to the playoffs anyway
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@louisville-slugger, you're missing another point in all your reasoning: NFL contracts tend to put most of the money on the third year of contract. And it makes a lot of sense, because that ensures Cousins (in this case) that we won't dump him after 2 years because the shitload of money we would have as dead cap.
Just remember that last year we made a deal with Houston to take Osweilers contract for a second round pick. What's a 2nd round pick worth? Ask Garoppolo.
We have a lot of cap space NOW, but that doesn't mean that we don't have to use it wisely.
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Why are you guys so worried about money? We have a ridiculous amount and it doesn't roll over. If we don't sign Cousins that money probably goes to waste. Our front office has to work the contracts so we don't end up in cap he'l if they can't do that they need to be fired
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Why are you guys so worried about money? We have a ridiculous amount and it doesn't roll over. If we don't sign Cousins that money probably goes to waste. Our front office has to work the contracts so we don't end up in cap he'l if they can't do that they need to be fired
Why are you guys so worried about money? We have a ridiculous amount and it doesn't roll over. If we don't sign Cousins that money probably goes to waste. Our front office has to work the contracts so we don't end up in cap hell if they can't do that they need to be fired
Unused Cap space certainly does roll over. That may well be the error in your thinking. It's not a "use it or lose it" situation. IIRC- and Tour can correct me if I'm wrong on this- the only caveat is (I think) there's a 5? year rolling period where a team has to spend a minimum on contracts. There's not only a ceiling, there's also a floor. And like they say "it's complicated".
Yup. working contracts is pretty important- that's why we're going to need cap room down the road- when we (think) we're only one player away, to afford the mega contract they're likely to demand. This isn't the time to make Cousins the highest paid QB in the league when the roster still has more holes in it than swiss cheese. I'm glad you're not doing the bean counting for the Browns.
Case in point- the Dolphins threw humongous money at Ndamukong Suh, and they currently have very little wiggle room to go out and sign FAs. Latest stat from over the cap has the Steelers $3million over- so where you think they're going to pull $10 million+ out of their a$$ to keep Le'veon Bell on the team? You want instant gratification? There's the guy we should go after.
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Based on the conversations in here, it's clear many of you would steer clear of Cousins. There's some talk in DC right now of giving Cousins the 3rd franchise tag at $34.5 million and trying to negotiate a trade. Of course, Cuosins has to be a party to that and willing to do a long-term deal with the trade partner. Talk here is that Denver is of mutual interest. But the Browns, simply due to the cap space and plethora of picks, have also come up. Given that you'd have to pay the man, what picks would Browns fans be willing to part with? I think it's safe to sa that #1 and #4 would be off the board. By the sounds of it, many of you would be against any trade given you'd be against signing him for "free" ...
As a Redskins fan, I want Cousins back. But if we're not going to get him to a long-term deal, I'll take anything that can help us move the franchise forward. In the case of the Browns, I'd jump at getting 33 & 35 ... and if that's too rich, 33 & 61.Browns would have Cuosins as their long-term solution at QB. If he completely bombs for whatever reason, you've got Kizer who can still be groomed. Then you can go BPA at 1 & 4 and continue to load the defense and probably add Saquan.
I will say, Saquan + Cousins + Gordon, Coleman, and whoever you add in FA at WR (Allen Robinson?) ... would make for a suddenly potent offense to go with your extremely young and loaded defense.
The Browns remind me a bit right now of Jacksonville 2 years ago. I think with Cousins, you could accelerate the timetable from 2 years from contention to immediate contention. in one off-season.
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Oh and the "talk" re: Denver is pure speculation ... and if it's mutual, the discussion was around Denver sending #5 and #40 to Washington for Cousins and #13 ... effectively the equivalent of a mid-first round pick in terms of trade-chart value.
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As far as the discussion re: signing Cousins with your massive cap space ... the Browns could effectively load a massive signing bonus into 2018 and make Cousins cap hit in later years much lighter when the Browns will be wanting to re-sign players who are now on rookie deals. Put something like $50 million of the $70 million guaranteed into 2018 cap hit and free up 2019-2023 cap hits to pay guys like Shelton, Garret, the #1 and #4 picks this year, etc.
Of course, you have to have ownership willing enough to spend that $$. The problem in DC isn't an owner who isn't willing to spend, but an owner who is incapable of bringing in anyone to make good decisions (and then when they do, driving them out for BS reasons - see McCloughan, Scot)
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As far as the discussion re: signing Cousins with your massive cap space ... the Browns could effectively load a massive signing bonus into 2018 and make Cousins cap hit in later years much lighter when the Browns will be wanting to re-sign players who are now on rookie deals. Put something like $50 million of the $70 million guaranteed into 2018 cap hit and free up 2019-2023 cap hits to pay guys like Shelton, Garret, the #1 and #4 picks this year, etc.
Of course, you have to have ownership willing enough to spend that $$. The problem in DC isn't an owner who isn't willing to spend, but an owner who is incapable of bringing in anyone to make good decisions (and then when they do, driving them out for BS reasons - see McCloughan, Scot)
Of course, you have to have ownership willing enough to spend that $$. The problem in DC isn't an owner who isn't willing to spend, but an owner who is incapable of bringing in anyone to make good decisions (and then when they do, driving them out for BS reasons
...sound a lot like us for the last 20 years.
Free agency comes first...so we'll see what happens....
Heard Ryan Leaf on The Fan today. He likes the Cousins to the Browns idea better than drafting a QB so as to immediately get the offense 'established'. But he suspects that Cousins would only come is to get the big pay day. (I didn't realize how Leaf had turned his life around and is trying to help people. - Good for him!)
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Why is the assumption, if we sign Cousins we dont draft an elite QB? We have enough draft and cap capital to do both.
If the rookie beats out Cousins in year 2 or 3, you trade Cousins to a QB-needy team, or you front-load the guaranteed money
Cant see giving up a 2 for Smith- basically a 1-2 year rental...
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Why is the assumption, if we sign Cousins we dont draft an elite QB? We have enough draft and cap capital to do both.
If the rookie beats out Cousins in year 2 or 3, you trade Cousins to a QB-needy team, or you front-load the guaranteed money
Cant see giving up a 2 for Smith- basically a 1-2 year rental...
Why is the assumption, if we sign Cousins we dont draft an elite QB?
Because of the substantial 'investment' in getting him. - It would be 'almost' comparable to drafting QB's at 1 & 4.
BEING A BROWNS FAN IS A TEST TO SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN TAKE -
Pure hypothetical. But if you’re the Browns in FA and manage to land Bell and Cousins ... wouldn’t that make the draft even more exciting? You could trade #1 for a ransom to a QB needy team and just load up across the board. Not to mention you’d probably go from 0-16 to 9-7 purely by adding Cousins and Bell and allowing the rest of your team to progress ... throw in all those draft picks and you could be set for years.
Then the Steelers for as well as they’re run, are down Bell and soon Big Ben. Ravens are pretty meh right now. Cincy is average. There could be a window for the Browns to dominate. And this is an assessment from an outsider.
could you imagine the AFC being taken over by the Browns and Jags for the next 4-5 years? Lol
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Based on the conversations in here, it's clear many of you would steer clear of Cousins. There's some talk in DC right now of giving Cousins the 3rd franchise tag at $34.5 million and trying to negotiate a trade. Of course, Cuosins has to be a party to that and willing to do a long-term deal with the trade partner. Talk here is that Denver is of mutual interest. But the Browns, simply due to the cap space and plethora of picks, have also come up. Given that you'd have to pay the man, what picks would Browns fans be willing to part with? I think it's safe to sa that #1 and #4 would be off the board. By the sounds of it, many of you would be against any trade given you'd be against signing him for "free" ...
As a Redskins fan, I want Cousins back. But if we're not going to get him to a long-term deal, I'll take anything that can help us move the franchise forward. In the case of the Browns, I'd jump at getting 33 & 35 ... and if that's too rich, 33 & 61.Browns would have Cuosins as their long-term solution at QB. If he completely bombs for whatever reason, you've got Kizer who can still be groomed. Then you can go BPA at 1 & 4 and continue to load the defense and probably add Saquan.
I will say, Saquan + Cousins + Gordon, Coleman, and whoever you add in FA at WR (Allen Robinson?) ... would make for a suddenly potent offense to go with your extremely young and loaded defense.
The Browns remind me a bit right now of Jacksonville 2 years ago. I think with Cousins, you could accelerate the timetable from 2 years from contention to immediate contention. in one off-season.
Based on the conversations in here, it's clear many of you would steer clear of Cousins. There's some talk in DC right now of giving Cousins the 3rd franchise tag at $34.5 million and trying to negotiate a trade. Of course, Cuosins has to be a party to that and willing to do a long-term deal with the trade partner. Talk here is that Denver is of mutual interest. But the Browns, simply due to the cap space and plethora of picks, have also come up. Given that you'd have to pay the man, what picks would Browns fans be willing to part with? I think it's safe to sa that #1 and #4 would be off the board. By the sounds of it, many of you would be against any trade given you'd be against signing him for "free" ...
As a Redskins fan, I want Cousins back. But if we're not going to get him to a long-term deal, I'll take anything that can help us move the franchise forward. In the case of the Browns, I'd jump at getting 33 & 35 ... and if that's too rich, 33 & 61.Browns would have Cuosins as their long-term solution at QB. If he completely bombs for whatever reason, you've got Kizer who can still be groomed. Then you can go BPA at 1 & 4 and continue to load the defense and probably add Saquan.
I will say, Saquan + Cousins + Gordon, Coleman, and whoever you add in FA at WR (Allen Robinson?) ... would make for a suddenly potent offense to go with your extremely young and loaded defense.
The Browns remind me a bit right now of Jacksonville 2 years ago. I think with Cousins, you could accelerate the timetable from 2 years from contention to immediate contention. in one off-season.
thanks for the input. Regarding a tag, renegotiate sign and trade- maybe. No team is going to offer your two firsts for Cousins on an outright tag, especially in the Browns case the #1 overall. $34 million isn't on the table. That's plain crazy, I can't believe the Redskins would even entertain the thought. Seriously front loading a contract is possible. I doubt we'd offer #33. #35 + a 4th is as high as I'd go, and if that's not good enough- I'll see what KC wants for Smith.
Regarding the Brown's defense- the backfield is a disaster area. A lot of chatter taking Minkah Fitzpatrick @ #4. I'm averse (but not everyone is) to making a play for Cousins at the expense of taking Saquon and BPA on defense. We haven't drafted a QB in the top 10 since Couch- and take it from me, the vast majority of the Natives are very restless in that regard in Cleveland. The sting of passing on Wentz and then Watson is a sore spot. We go Barkley\ Fitzpatrick\Cousins and one of the 2018 top QBs turns into another stud- I'll about puke. Unless Cousins performs like a top 5-10 QB for the next 5 years.
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Because of the substantial 'investment' in getting him. - It would be 'almost' comparable to drafting QB's at 1 & 4.
Except not at all. Draft picks and cash are NOT 2 comparable assets.
Money is an issue if you don't want to put your team in cap hell down the road. I'll give you a couple fer instances. Garrett turns into another Bruce Smith- got some space for a Suh contract? Gordon reverts to his pro bowl form and stays off of drugs = top 5 WR money. We're going to have a bunch of guys a few years down the road coming off their rookie deals- (like Schobert) and if we want to keep them, we had better have the cap room to do so.
Worrying about re-signing a guy 4 years down the line is certainly one way to ensure perpetual suckage for our beloved Browns... we can worry 1 year, maybe 2 years for a superstar, but 4 years for a guy we just drafted... should NOT influence our decision-making THIS offseason...
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Because of the substantial 'investment' in getting him. - It would be 'almost' comparable to drafting QB's at 1 & 4.
Except not at all. Draft picks and cash are NOT 2 comparable assets.
Money is an issue if you don't want to put your team in cap hell down the road. I'll give you a couple fer instances. Garrett turns into another Bruce Smith- got some space for a Suh contract? Gordon reverts to his pro bowl form and stays off of drugs = top 5 WR money. We're going to have a bunch of guys a few years down the road coming off their rookie deals- (like Schobert) and if we want to keep them, we had better have the cap room to do so.
Worrying about re-signing a guy 4 years down the line is certainly one way to ensure perpetual suckage for our beloved Browns... we can worry 1 year, maybe 2 years for a superstar, but 4 years for a guy we just drafted... should NOT influence our decision-making THIS offseason...
Except not at all. Draft picks and cash are NOT 2 comparable assets.
Worrying about re-signing a guy 4 years down the line is certainly one way to ensure perpetual suckage for our beloved Browns... we can worry 1 year, maybe 2 years for a superstar, but 4 years for a guy we just drafted... should NOT influence our decision-making THIS offseason...
So, from some quarters- let's spend money like a drunken sailor on shore leave this year? Fortunately, listening to Red Zone tonight- Dorsey isn't going to repeat the lessons he learned about cap room in KC....
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