WTF, do the Indians have ANYONE that can pitch......

[BrownB499]

mikeyP72 said:

Chuck Nagy, even now could pitch better than Pavano is.

Yeah I'm ready for Westbrook

On another note has anyone ever seen a major league pitcher that shows fear the way Rafael Perez does,

or is it me? This guy looks like Buckwheat in the haunted house when he's on the mound.

I been watching big league pitchers for 40 some years and I honestly can't remember anyone who has looked so

frightened while on the bump.

[SoCalBrownsFan]

Bullpen imploded yet again today. 9 games back and fading fast. I think it is time to start the firesale and FIRE WEDGE.

[JohnG71097]

mikeyP72 said:

Chuck Nagy, even now could pitch better than Pavano is.

We learned today that in his last couple of starts Pavano, has been pitching with shoulder soreness and neck pain.

Kudos to him gutting it out

Westbrook has been shut down for a month with soreness in his right elbow

The ship has sailed on the 2009 season

Laffey may be back soon

Brantley may be up here sooner also

[Kosar_For_President]

@brownb499 said:

Cliff Lee pitches a 3 hit masterpiece on Sunday

Then Monday a keg league softball game breaks out

That's baseball

That is NOT baseball. Our bullpen has an 11 ERA over the 5 games. They need to bring in a pitching specialist like Greg Maddux or fire Willis. Something needs to give. When was the last time ANYONE lost on a wild pitch.

[Kosar_For_President]

@socalbrownsfan said:

Bullpen imploded yet again today. 9 games back and fading fast. I think it is time to start the firesale and FIRE WEDGE.

I don't think it is Wedges fault. Bad throws and base running, etc. You can impose so much on a 28 year old who has been playing baseball for 25 years. It's shit they should already know. I have seen Wedge make some bad infield shifts, but nothing out of the ordinary. Things and calls normal coaches make in those circumstances. Unfoutunately he might be the scape goat.

Maybe they need to bring in a Zen Master and teach the team to play as one?

[mario]

in Cleveland sports its ALWAYS the coaches fault. Its never that the players suck, but the coaches fault.

[CIMO.]

@kosar_for_president said:

I don't think it is Wedges fault. Bad throws and base running, etc. You can impose so much on a 28 year old who has been playing baseball for 25 years. It's shit they should already know. I have seen Wedge make some bad infield shifts, but nothing out of the ordinary. Things and calls normal coaches make in those circumstances. Unfoutunately he might be the scape goat.

Maybe they need to bring in a Zen Master and teach the team to play as one?

I'm in the same boat. Everyone wanted Charlie Manuel back a few months ago...but I can assure you if Wedge had Chase Utley and Ryan Howard and Jimmy Rollins and a closer going 45 for 45 or whatever it was in save opportunities, he'd look a lot better. If our three best hitters right now (Vic, Derosa and Choo) keep up their current pace, they'll hit 28, 31, and 21 homers, respectively. And those would be career-type numbers for these guys. Not too many big boppers in the lineup.

Counting this season, Rafael Perez has a career ERA of 3.78, and obviously has played all of it for Wedge and Willis. Jensen Lewis has a career 3.87 ERA. Betancourt is injured. I have no idea what goes on in that club house, but at least for those three guys, I don't see where the idea of blaming Wedge and Willis comes in, when they've all had success for the pair. The rest of the guys in the pen are cheap vets or middling "prospects" to fill things out and shouldn't have too much expectations.

If you blame Wedge for pressuring Shapiro into getting a top-dollar closer, that's understandable. But I can't blame him (or Willis) for Wood imploding and losing his slider.

We don't really have anyone besides Betancourt with any kind of real track record, and no one's stepped up to the point where Wedge can say "OK, Perez is the 7th inning guy, Lewis the 8th", etc. There's only so much you can control with the bullpen, and it hasn't gotten to the point where Wedge is stupidly yanking starters too early or not letting the relievers get into a groove. Cliff can't pitch 9 innings every game, and every time he puts anyone from the bullpen into the game they give up 3 or 4 hits and a couple walks and he yanks them. He's really not the guy to blame when most of these struggles are beyond his control, to me anyway.

I'm a Shapiro fan, but if this next wave of prospects doesn't pan out, the blame should go on him. With blue-chip talent at the leadoff spot (Brantley), middle of the order (Santana, LaPorta, Weglarz), the front of the rotation (Rondon, De La Cruz, Gomez) and now the bullpen (White)...I'm fine with waiting this one out, to be honest.

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

@cimo. said:

I'm a Shapiro fan, but if this next wave of prospects doesn't pan out, the blame should go on him. With blue-chip talent at the leadoff spot (Brantley), middle of the order (Santana, LaPorta, Weglarz), the front of the rotation (Rondon, De La Cruz, Gomez) and now the bullpen (White)...I'm fine with waiting this one out, to be honest.

How could you blame Shapiro if he's getting the top prospects in the league, not in just his eyes but everyones. If these players consistently fail then i would look to coaching and how there managed once they get to the big leagues. Bringing guys up and playing them once or twice a week doesn't work. When Santana, LaPorta, Weglarz, Brantley, Bell, Chisenhall come up they have to play everyday; In order for that to happen there gonna have to get rid of some key players. So do you trade guys now while you can get something for them or do you trade your prospects for needs and hope you can resign your guys? Personally Id resign Cliff Lee first then offer extensions to the other guys, If they decline I'd trade them for prospects

[CIMO.]

It comes down to putting talent on the field. He does a great job of accumulating prospects, but when they end up being Andy Marte or Alex Escobar or whoever it doesn't amount to much. He hasn't done anything through the draft, and his free agent success pretty much starts and ends with Jake Westbrook.

He's obviously made some legendary trades, but hasn't actually a made a long-lasting, cohesive, talented roster yet. I'm sure he knows what he's doing... it's just that, especially since he's known for building the farm system, he still hasn't made a very good pipeline that just churns out talent, reloading the big club.

It's the constant flux of contending and rebuilding and filling this hole to create that hole that makes him not immune to blame.

It all comes down to this current group of prospects to me. If the big guns can come up and be consistent contenders, it's all good.

[Kosar_For_President]

nmills said:

How could you blame Shapiro if he's getting the top prospects in the league, not in just his eyes but everyones. If these players consistently fail then i would look to coaching and how there managed once they get to the big leagues. Bringing guys up and playing them once or twice a week doesn't work. When Santana, LaPorta, Weglarz, Brantley, Bell, Chisenhall come up they have to play everyday; In order for that to happen there gonna have to get rid of some key players. So do you trade guys now while you can get something for them or do you trade your prospects for needs and hope you can resign your guys? Personally Id resign Cliff Lee first then offer extensions to the other guys, If they decline I'd trade them for prospects

They just don't have the money since the Dolan's sold Cablevision. That is the real hump here. Shapiro just doesn't have the funds to sign Lee or another big league star.

There are no denying the stats here though on Shapiro's signings, even though I don't think it's his fault. Carmona (7.42 ERA), Deluchi (Enough said), Kobayashi (8.38 ERA), Vizcaino (5.40 ERA), Smith (5.27 ERA), Wood (5.47 ERA), Reyes (6.57 ERA).

See a theme here, it's either bad signings (which I don't agree with) or poor coaching in terms of pitching.

Smith had an ERA of 3.50 last year in a tougher division, Wood was a top 12 closer in MLB, Perez was solid 86 strikeouts in 76 innings and 25 holds.

Who would of thought Tony Sipp, a rookie, would be one of our best middle relief pitcher.

And we are waiting for Laughy to come back? What a joke. Willis needs to be fired, this is not Wedges fault. We need a ex-pitcher, maybe an ex Indians pitcher. Greg Swindell?

[Beanpot]

@kosar_for_president said:

They just don't have the money since the Dolan's sold Cablevision. That is the real hump here. Shapiro just doesn't have the funds to sign Lee or another big league star.

Elaborate, please. About the "real hump" and the lack of funds since the sale of Cablevision. Not calling you out, I've just read a ton about his finances and I'm curious to know what you know.

Beanpot

[Kosar_For_President]

@beanpot said:

Elaborate, please. About the "real hump" and the lack of funds since the sale of Cablevision. Not calling you out, I've just read a ton about his finances and I'm curious to know what you know.

Beanpot

I can't really say specifically, but I worked with someone in the very close Dolan family.

"Dolan initially came under fire for ordering general manager Mark Shapiro to cut the team's payroll, resulting in the team falling from a division title in 2001 to three straight losing seasons"

"However, the team has been a contender for most of the time since 2005." - Thanks to Shapiro.

The reason is he doesn't have the profit to pay. Not that he doesn't have the money outright, he's probably a billionaire with all his assets. He just wouldn't make any money. It's a business.

[Beanpot]

@kosar_for_president said:

I can't really say specifically, but I worked with someone in the very close Dolan family.

Yeah, me too. I was just looking for more specifics.

"Dolan initially came under fire for ordering general manager Mark Shapiro to cut the team's payroll, resulting in the team falling from a division title in 2001 to three straight losing seasons"

"However, the team has been a contender for most of the time since 2005." - Thanks to Shapiro.

Not to mention Wikipedia!

The reason is he doesn't have the profit to pay. Not that he doesn't have the money outright, he's probably a billionaire with all his assets. He just wouldn't make any money. It's a business.

I appreciate the "it's a business" line. Would never have guessed. What I remain curious about is the "he doesn't have the profit to pay" thing. Seriously, I'd like for you to fully explain that. Why, exactly, is profit the reason he isn't able to pay players?

Beanpot

[Kosar_For_President]

@beanpot said:

Yeah, me too. I was just looking for more specifics.

I wouldn't feel comfortable talking about it. The guy was cool and wouldn't want to specifically talk about that.

Not to mention Wikipedia!

That's why I put it in quotes. I was looking for the specific year pertaining to Cablevision found that line and pasted.

I appreciate the "it's a business" line. Would never have guessed. What I remain curious about is the "he doesn't have the profit to pay" thing. Seriously, I'd like for you to fully explain that. Why, exactly, is profit the reason he isn't able to pay players?

Well if you are not making money, then why would someone spend money on players and not make any money? There is a reason why our team salary is the way it is. There is a reason why signing a David Delluci is a "good move". It's all about economics.

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

We offered C.C. 19 million a year, I wouldnt say Dolan isnt willing to spend the money. Its just pointless to get in a bidding war with NY

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

@kosar_for_president said:

There are no denying the stats here though on Shapiro's signings, even though I don't think it's his fault. Carmona (7.42 ERA), Deluchi (Enough said), Kobayashi (8.38 ERA), Vizcaino (5.40 ERA), Smith (5.27 ERA), Wood (5.47 ERA), Reyes (6.57 ERA).

See a theme here, it's either bad signings (which I don't agree with) or poor coaching in terms of pitching.

Smith had an ERA of 3.50 last year in a tougher division, Wood was a top 12 closer in MLB, Perez was solid 86 strikeouts in 76 innings and 25 holds.

Edward Mujica has a ERA of 2.83 since joining the Padres

[Kosar_For_President]

nmills said:

Edward Mujica has a ERA of 2.83 since joining the Padres

Then it is settled:

FIRE WILLIS

[BrownB499]

@kosar_for_president said:

Then it is settled:

FIRE WILLIS

I SECOND THE MOTION

[Beanpot]

@kosar_for_president said:

Well if you are not making money, then why would someone spend money on players and not make any money? There is a reason why our team salary is the way it is.

Right, but assuming you mean payroll when you mention salary, our team payroll is pretty damn middle of the pack. Above the Jays, Brewers, Cardinals, Rockies, Reds, Diamondbacks, Royals, Rangers, Orioles, Twins, Rays, A's, Nats, Pirates, Padres and Marlins.

The reason it's that way has to do with several things, not the least of which is the organization's willingness to overspend on young talent.

Now that model is worthy of debate given the information at hand, but it's far too simple to look at payroll, come to the incorrect conclusion that it's "the way it is" - meaning somewhere less than desirable - and then just shrug your shoulders and say whattayagonnado when you don't spend enough money.

The truth is our team salary is pretty damn nice, given our market, the failing media ratings and attendance. We're not full of suck due to Dolan. Not this year, not by a long shot.

Beanpot

[Kosar_For_President]

@beanpot said:

The truth is our team salary is pretty damn nice, given our market, the failing media ratings and attendance. We're not full of suck due to Dolan. Not this year, not by a long shot.

Yea I can see your point. Maybe more proof we just need a regime change. Later Wedgie.