WTF, do the Indians have ANYONE that can pitch......

[CIMO.]

It comes down to putting talent on the field. He does a great job of accumulating prospects, but when they end up being Andy Marte or Alex Escobar or whoever it doesn't amount to much. He hasn't done anything through the draft, and his free agent success pretty much starts and ends with Jake Westbrook.

He's obviously made some legendary trades, but hasn't actually a made a long-lasting, cohesive, talented roster yet. I'm sure he knows what he's doing... it's just that, especially since he's known for building the farm system, he still hasn't made a very good pipeline that just churns out talent, reloading the big club.

It's the constant flux of contending and rebuilding and filling this hole to create that hole that makes him not immune to blame.

It all comes down to this current group of prospects to me. If the big guns can come up and be consistent contenders, it's all good.

[Kosar_For_President]

nmills said:

How could you blame Shapiro if he's getting the top prospects in the league, not in just his eyes but everyones. If these players consistently fail then i would look to coaching and how there managed once they get to the big leagues. Bringing guys up and playing them once or twice a week doesn't work. When Santana, LaPorta, Weglarz, Brantley, Bell, Chisenhall come up they have to play everyday; In order for that to happen there gonna have to get rid of some key players. So do you trade guys now while you can get something for them or do you trade your prospects for needs and hope you can resign your guys? Personally Id resign Cliff Lee first then offer extensions to the other guys, If they decline I'd trade them for prospects

They just don't have the money since the Dolan's sold Cablevision. That is the real hump here. Shapiro just doesn't have the funds to sign Lee or another big league star.

There are no denying the stats here though on Shapiro's signings, even though I don't think it's his fault. Carmona (7.42 ERA), Deluchi (Enough said), Kobayashi (8.38 ERA), Vizcaino (5.40 ERA), Smith (5.27 ERA), Wood (5.47 ERA), Reyes (6.57 ERA).

See a theme here, it's either bad signings (which I don't agree with) or poor coaching in terms of pitching.

Smith had an ERA of 3.50 last year in a tougher division, Wood was a top 12 closer in MLB, Perez was solid 86 strikeouts in 76 innings and 25 holds.

Who would of thought Tony Sipp, a rookie, would be one of our best middle relief pitcher.

And we are waiting for Laughy to come back? What a joke. Willis needs to be fired, this is not Wedges fault. We need a ex-pitcher, maybe an ex Indians pitcher. Greg Swindell?

[Beanpot]

@kosar_for_president said:

They just don't have the money since the Dolan's sold Cablevision. That is the real hump here. Shapiro just doesn't have the funds to sign Lee or another big league star.

Elaborate, please. About the "real hump" and the lack of funds since the sale of Cablevision. Not calling you out, I've just read a ton about his finances and I'm curious to know what you know.

Beanpot

[Kosar_For_President]

@beanpot said:

Elaborate, please. About the "real hump" and the lack of funds since the sale of Cablevision. Not calling you out, I've just read a ton about his finances and I'm curious to know what you know.

Beanpot

I can't really say specifically, but I worked with someone in the very close Dolan family.

"Dolan initially came under fire for ordering general manager Mark Shapiro to cut the team's payroll, resulting in the team falling from a division title in 2001 to three straight losing seasons"

"However, the team has been a contender for most of the time since 2005." - Thanks to Shapiro.

The reason is he doesn't have the profit to pay. Not that he doesn't have the money outright, he's probably a billionaire with all his assets. He just wouldn't make any money. It's a business.

[Beanpot]

@kosar_for_president said:

I can't really say specifically, but I worked with someone in the very close Dolan family.

Yeah, me too. I was just looking for more specifics.

"Dolan initially came under fire for ordering general manager Mark Shapiro to cut the team's payroll, resulting in the team falling from a division title in 2001 to three straight losing seasons"

"However, the team has been a contender for most of the time since 2005." - Thanks to Shapiro.

Not to mention Wikipedia!

The reason is he doesn't have the profit to pay. Not that he doesn't have the money outright, he's probably a billionaire with all his assets. He just wouldn't make any money. It's a business.

I appreciate the "it's a business" line. Would never have guessed. What I remain curious about is the "he doesn't have the profit to pay" thing. Seriously, I'd like for you to fully explain that. Why, exactly, is profit the reason he isn't able to pay players?

Beanpot

[Kosar_For_President]

@beanpot said:

Yeah, me too. I was just looking for more specifics.

I wouldn't feel comfortable talking about it. The guy was cool and wouldn't want to specifically talk about that.

Not to mention Wikipedia!

That's why I put it in quotes. I was looking for the specific year pertaining to Cablevision found that line and pasted.

I appreciate the "it's a business" line. Would never have guessed. What I remain curious about is the "he doesn't have the profit to pay" thing. Seriously, I'd like for you to fully explain that. Why, exactly, is profit the reason he isn't able to pay players?

Well if you are not making money, then why would someone spend money on players and not make any money? There is a reason why our team salary is the way it is. There is a reason why signing a David Delluci is a "good move". It's all about economics.

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

We offered C.C. 19 million a year, I wouldnt say Dolan isnt willing to spend the money. Its just pointless to get in a bidding war with NY

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

@kosar_for_president said:

There are no denying the stats here though on Shapiro's signings, even though I don't think it's his fault. Carmona (7.42 ERA), Deluchi (Enough said), Kobayashi (8.38 ERA), Vizcaino (5.40 ERA), Smith (5.27 ERA), Wood (5.47 ERA), Reyes (6.57 ERA).

See a theme here, it's either bad signings (which I don't agree with) or poor coaching in terms of pitching.

Smith had an ERA of 3.50 last year in a tougher division, Wood was a top 12 closer in MLB, Perez was solid 86 strikeouts in 76 innings and 25 holds.

Edward Mujica has a ERA of 2.83 since joining the Padres

[Kosar_For_President]

nmills said:

Edward Mujica has a ERA of 2.83 since joining the Padres

Then it is settled:

FIRE WILLIS

[BrownB499]

@kosar_for_president said:

Then it is settled:

FIRE WILLIS

I SECOND THE MOTION

[Beanpot]

@kosar_for_president said:

Well if you are not making money, then why would someone spend money on players and not make any money? There is a reason why our team salary is the way it is.

Right, but assuming you mean payroll when you mention salary, our team payroll is pretty damn middle of the pack. Above the Jays, Brewers, Cardinals, Rockies, Reds, Diamondbacks, Royals, Rangers, Orioles, Twins, Rays, A's, Nats, Pirates, Padres and Marlins.

The reason it's that way has to do with several things, not the least of which is the organization's willingness to overspend on young talent.

Now that model is worthy of debate given the information at hand, but it's far too simple to look at payroll, come to the incorrect conclusion that it's "the way it is" - meaning somewhere less than desirable - and then just shrug your shoulders and say whattayagonnado when you don't spend enough money.

The truth is our team salary is pretty damn nice, given our market, the failing media ratings and attendance. We're not full of suck due to Dolan. Not this year, not by a long shot.

Beanpot

[Kosar_For_President]

@beanpot said:

The truth is our team salary is pretty damn nice, given our market, the failing media ratings and attendance. We're not full of suck due to Dolan. Not this year, not by a long shot.

Yea I can see your point. Maybe more proof we just need a regime change. Later Wedgie.

[Beanpot]

@kosar_for_president said:

Yea I can see your point. Maybe more proof we just need a regime change. Later Wedgie.

Maybe so, if for no other reason than to do SOMETHING. I'm as frustrated as the next guy and hell if I know what needs to be done. Just do something.

Beanpot

[BrownB499]

My biggest fear with dumping Wedge (and believe me I'm ready to see him go) is that we end up with

Ned Diddley-Ed -Flanders AKA Jeff Datz as his replacement

lets face it thier not going to bring up Luvollo from Columbus 1/2 way through the season

so that leaves us with Skinner,Datz,or Willis

My thinking is that with all the hispanic ballplayers on this team it may be time to add some Latin flavor to the staff

I say for now ...NO... right now FIRE WILLIS...FIRE SHELTON and replace em with some fresh faces

[CIMO.]

I understand doing something for something's sake, but if I were the GM (or owner, or whoever) I'd be waiting it out.

Wedge was the Manager of the Year two years ago, finished at .500 last year with a bad team that lost CC and had no Victor for most of the year, and now is managing a bad team that's been without Sizemore, Cabrera, and Betancourt. And unlike Mike Brown (who's also a coach of the year), I still haven't seen anything heinously bad about Wedge's game.

We had a tremendous year in '07 when everything went our way. Fausto was amazing, both Rafaels were amazing, Borowski was somehow racking up saves, we got Kenny midseason, Cabrera was huge in August and September. Hafner had a down year but was still in the 25/100 range. Paul Byrd was winning games. So now we think we get better by adding Kerry Wood or our young guys improving or what have you. But when you actually step back and compare our roster to playoff teams...we don't really deserve to be anyone's pick to make a playoff run.

We're average or below average at basically every position besides Center (when Grady's healthy), Catcher (half the time), Right and #1 starter.

So when Grady's missing time, Shoppach plays half (if not more) of the games at catcher, and Cliff isn't getting run support, we're left with Choo as our only difference maker and there's really nothing about us that says "playoff team."

Kerry Wood is really the only guy I look at as being a true disappointment. He's getting paid as a cornerstone player, and has shown that he's capable of BEING a cornerstone player. But whatever his deal is this year, he's been terrible. All the other guys we can point fingers at...Peralta, Perez, Pavano, Garko, Shoppach, Kobayashi, all the pitchers from Columbus...they aren't supposed to be difference makers. When they're hot, they can be good players, but they're not cornerstones. And none of them (besides maybe Peralta and Perez) have made a case to be one. They're guys whose upside is 20 or 25 homers or a solid reliever or back of the rotation starter. Those are realistic goals, but it's still the best they can be. Garko's not hitting 40 homers. Pavano's not winning 18 games. When they go in a slump or just underachieve, they look terrible....but it's because they aren't that good to begin with.

I keep saying it, but it all comes down to this next wave of prospects. Rondon, Santana, LaPorta, Weglarz, De La Cruz. Those guys can hit .300, they can hit 40 homers, they can win 20 games and have ERAs in the 2s. Those are difference makers.

Could Wedge or Willis do a better job? Well, obviously. But have they done so bad they deserve to be fired? Not really. When healthy, this should be a slightly over .500 team with the bats to have a chance to go on a streak and challege in a weak division. When banged up and in a collective slump, they should be about where they are, if not for the 14 blown saves.

That's me, anyway. Back to back tough seasons, but it's more to do with lofty expectations than actual shortcomings, to me.

[BrownB499]

Great points CIMO

Last week Shapiro said "Blame Me"

well Mark,

we started the season with Lee & Carmona as the only legit starters

nobody expected the collapse of Carmona but I don't think anyone is shocked by it

Pavanno= huge question mark

Lewis, Laffey,Sowers,Huff, Reyes warm bodies good for a win here and there

Mark should have landed us another dependable starter in the off season

I was excited about KWood but we also knew another HUGE question mark,then when I saw the Angels signed Fuentes two month

later and 2 million dollars less( or their abouts) my first thought was why didn't we get this guy?

Bentantcourt,Perez,Kobyoshi all sucked at times last year Smith was a marginal pickup that sucked in spring training

yet we couldn't expect Mark to revamp the whole bullpen in one year (now we do)

Lineup wise we knew Vic,Grady,Jhonny were solid

we hoped Choo,Garko,Francisco would find their stroke, DeRosa we just hoped

Pronk? lets stop pretending already

we needed another BIG bat (I believe Sheffield is getting $650,00 from the Mets, not my favorite player but I'd rather see him at the plate instead of Shoppach)

So yes CIMO we're a 500 club when healthy...a last place team when not

you say wait a couple years then see what happens

I say lets change the philosophy see if we can trade some bad (Shoppach,Pavs,Perralta) for not so bad while we wait

I believe Hafner Broussard,Sizemore,Lee and Westbrook all came in while we waited for Martinez,CC, andPerralta

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

Nice post but if you beleive all that then why are you giving Shapiro a free pass. Basically you said this team isn't as talented as we were made to beleive.

Look at our draft in the 1st and 2nd rounds, since Shapiro has been GM.

Sure he's built up are farm system, but its been at the expense of our MLB club. All are talent in the minors is from trading away our proven MLB players.

I dont no about you but this draft history stunned me, the only real promising player thats contributing on the Indians is David Huff and thats just the last few weeks. Even if you throw in Jeremy Sowers whos been less than stellar; thats 2 for 24. Or 2 for 20 up through 07 since you cant expect 08 and 09 players to contribute yet. Shapiro's batting .100 and that doesnt cut it on the field and certainly not in the front office.

2002

1 22 Jeremy Guthrie

1 33 Matt Whitney

1 41 Micah Schilling

2 63 Brian Slocum

2 72 Pat Osborn

2003

1 11 Michael Aubrey

1 18 Brad Snyder

1 31 Adam Miller

2 48 Javier Herrera

2004

1 6 Jeremy Sowers

2 47 Justin Hoyman

2005

1 14 Trevor Crowe

1 33 John Drennen

2 62 Stephen Head

2006

1 39 David Huff

2 56 Steve Wright

2 57 Josh Rodriguez

2 69 Wes Hodges

2 75 Matt McBride

2007

1 13 Beau Mills

2008

1 29 Lonnie Chisenhall

2 76 Trey Haley

2009

1 15 Alex White

2 63 Jason Kipnis

[CIMO.]

Oh, I'm definitely not giving him a free pass. But he's done at worst a pretty good job since he got here. He tore everything down for his first few years, so I'd say the "rebuilding" didn't really start until 2004 or 2005. In that time we miss the playoffs by an inch in '05, and get to game 7 of the ALCS in '07. Not a bad track record.

2008 was a train wreck and this year proved that last wasn't as much of a fluke as we thought. The thing is, even though this team isn't as good as we thought it was, we have the best pool of prospects we've had since the early 90s. You can blame him (and I'd agree with you) that he's sucked at the draft, but he's made up for that with his amazing trades getting us Lee, Sizemore, Hafner, and Choo (probably others I'm forgetting, and not even counting Blake for Santana) and has done a good job in Central America.

And basically I just think the big payoff is right around the corner. I can see why someone would want to change regimes, and wouldn't really even complain much if it happens...but the ace is still up the sleeve. We still have the pieces to field a great team for years.

[CLEVELandMILIDH]

I agree he's traded for some good looking prospects, some that have panned out and some haven't some are yet to be known. But since we dont have the payroll to pay Martinez, Lee, Sizemore, etc. We get into a revolving door of trading talent for prospects. Thats when you need those draft picks to pan out to fill in the gap. While your waiting for the prospects that you traded for to make it to the big leagues you need to have the next wave of your own drafted players to fill in, if not your gonna have more stretches of losing baseball than winning. In my opinion a small or medium market team's most important player acquisitions are in the draft. Thus far it hasn't looked to good.