IMO Our def scheme sucks...

[Clevfan4life]

@richiswhere said:

I would say the run defense took a big step backwards this year we went from #7 to #28 which was probably a direct result of getting rid of both Shelton and Meder.

but it's a passing league bro, I mean we were 26th against the pass....that's amazing. Wait....remind me is it better to have a high or low number here?

[Clevfan4life]

Your guy's rose colored glasses are the direct result of Baker taking over the team. Had he not, that defense would have completely folded by midseason. They would have been on the field forever. But if you objectively look at the defense, it's worse than last year and spent far fewer snaps on the field cause we finally got an offense worth a damn. The secondary is building something for sure, it's not like Im completely down on them. The talent at certain spots is absolutely there...this "should" have easily been a top 15 defense. The only reason I can conceive of why it wasn't are these weird hybrid looks I've been pointing out for prob 2 months now. They weren't fooling anyone and it looked like it wasn't putting our talented players in positions to make plays. That's on the DC, period. I could let Sunday go if it was the first time we got run over and it was our first look at a pro RO offense blah blah blah.....but we were near dead last against the run and you can't have that if you want a defense that supports the offense. That concept should not have to be explained to any of you. 

[Clevfan4life]

NFL Team Total Defense Statistics - 2017

Statistics: Total | Downs | Passing | Rushing | Receiving | Returning | Kicking | Punting | Defense | Give/Take
Season: Select One2018 Regular Season2017 Regular Season2016 Regular Season2015 Regular Season2014 Regular Season2013 Regular Season2012 Regular Season2011 Regular Season2010 Regular Season2009 Regular Season2008 Regular Season2007 Regular Season2006 Regular Season2005 Regular Season2004 Regular Season2003 Regular Season2002 Regular Season
League: NFCAFCNFL
Offense | Defense

Net Total Yards Leaders

RK	TEAM	YDS	YDS/G	PASS	P YDS/G	RUSH	R YDS/G	PTS	PTS/G
1	Minnesota	4415	275.9	3078	192.4	1337	83.6	252	15.8
2	Jacksonville	4578	286.1	2718	169.9	1860	116.3	268	16.8
3	Denver	4640	290.0	3210	200.6	1430	89.4	382	23.9
4	Philadelphia	4904	306.5	3637	227.3	1267	79.2	295	18.4
5	Pittsburgh	4910	306.9	3217	201.1	1693	105.8	308	19.3
6	Arizona	4975	310.9	3541	221.3	1434	89.6	361	22.6
7	Carolina	5074	317.1	3665	229.1	1409	88.1	327	20.4
8	Dallas	5089	318.1	3425	214.1	1664	104.0	332	20.8
9	Atlanta	5094	318.4	3429	214.3	1665	104.1	315	19.7
10	Chicago	5106	319.1	3376	211.0	1730	108.1	320	20.0
11	Seattle	5171	323.2	3347	209.2	1824	114.0	332	20.8
12	Baltimore	5201	325.1	3421	213.8	1780	111.3	303	18.9
13	Tennessee	5248	328.0	3828	239.3	1420	88.8	356	22.3
14	Cleveland	5250	328.1	3684	230.3	1566	97.9	410	25.6
15	LA Chargers	5254	328.4	3156	197.3	2098	131.1	272	17.0
16	Miami	5371	335.7	3603	225.2	1768	110.5	393	24.6
17	New Orleans	5384	336.5	3597	224.8	1787	111.7	326	20.4
18	Cincinnati	5425	339.1	3379	211.2	2046	127.9	349	21.8
19	LA Rams	5434	339.6	3475	217.2	1959	122.4	329	20.6
20	Houston	5546	346.6	3799	237.4	1747	109.2	436	27.3
21	Washington	5566	347.9	3420	213.8	2146	134.1	388	24.3
22	Green Bay	5582	348.9	3789	236.8	1793	112.1	384	24.0
23	Oakland	5601	350.1	3858	241.1	1743	108.9	373	23.3
24	San Francisco	5625	351.6	3764	235.3	1861	116.3	383	23.9
25	NY Jets	5636	352.3	3749	234.3	1887	117.9	382	23.9
26	Buffalo	5682	355.1	3688	230.5	1994	124.6	359	22.4
27	Detroit	5692	355.8	3892	243.3	1800	112.5	376	23.5
28	Kansas City	5842	365.1	3952	247.0	1890	118.1	339	21.2
29	New England	5856	366.0	4020	251.3	1836	114.8	296	18.5
30	Indianapolis	5873	367.1	3946	246.6	1927	120.4	404	25.3
31	NY Giants	5971	373.2	4038	252.4	1933	120.8	388	24.3
32	Tampa Bay	6049	378.1	4169	260.6	1880	117.5

[Clevfan4life]

NFL Team Total Defense Statistics - 2018

 

Statistics: Total | Downs | Passing | Rushing | Receiving | Returning | Kicking | Punting | Defense | Give/Take
Season: Select One2018 Regular Season2017 Regular Season2016 Regular Season2015 Regular Season2014 Regular Season2013 Regular Season2012 Regular Season2011 Regular Season2010 Regular Season2009 Regular Season2008 Regular Season2007 Regular Season2006 Regular Season2005 Regular Season2004 Regular Season2003 Regular Season2002 Regular Season
League: NFCAFCNFL
Offense | Defense

Net Total Yards Leaders

RK	TEAM	YDS	YDS/G	PASS	P YDS/G	RUSH	R YDS/G	PTS	PTS/G
1	Baltimore	4687	292.9	3360	210.0	1327	82.9	287	17.9
2	Buffalo	4706	294.1	2867	179.2	1839	114.9	374	23.4
3	Chicago	4795	299.7	3515	219.7	1280	80.0	283	17.7
4	Minnesota	4955	309.7	3140	196.3	1815	113.4	341	21.3
5	Jacksonville	4983	311.4	3113	194.6	1870	116.9	316	19.8
6	Pittsburgh	5235	327.2	3697	231.1	1538	96.1	360	22.5
7	Dallas	5268	329.3	3755	234.7	1513	94.6	324	20.3
8	Tennessee	5334	333.4	3471	216.9	1863	116.4	303	18.9
9	LA Chargers	5339	333.7	3646	227.9	1693	105.8	329	20.6
10	Detroit	5360	335.0	3599	224.9	1761	110.1	360	22.5
11	Indianapolis	5431	339.4	3805	237.8	1626	101.6	344	21.5
12	Houston	5490	343.1	4167	260.4	1323	82.7	316	19.8
13	San Francisco	5546	346.6	3732	233.3	1814	113.4	435	27.2
14	New Orleans	5585	349.1	4302	268.9	1283	80.2	353	22.1
15	Carolina	5651	353.2	3847	240.4	1804	112.8	382	23.9
16	Seattle	5653	353.3	3842	240.1	1811	113.2	347	21.7
17	Washington	5654	353.4	3794	237.1	1860	116.3	359	22.4
18	Green Bay	5670	354.4	3752	234.5	1918	119.9	400	25.0
19	LA Rams	5737	358.6	3780	236.3	1957	122.3	384	24.0
20	Arizona	5741	358.8	3262	203.9	2479	154.9	425	26.6
21	New England	5746	359.1	3943	246.4	1803	112.7	325	20.3
22	Denver	5842	365.1	3929	245.6	1913	119.6	349	21.8
23	Philadelphia	5859	366.2	4308	269.3	1551	96.9	348	21.8
24	NY Giants	5942	371.4	4044	252.8	1898	118.6	412	25.8
25	NY Jets	6086	380.4	4065	254.1	2021	126.3	441	27.6
26	Oakland	6102	381.4	3853	240.8	2249	140.6	467	29.2
27	Tampa Bay	6134	383.4	4151	259.4	1983	123.9	464	29.0
28	Atlanta	6152	384.5	4153	259.6	1999	124.9	423	26.4
29	Miami	6257	391.1	3932	245.8	2325	145.3	433	27.1
30	Cleveland	6288	393.0	4125	257.8	2163	135.2	392	24.5
31	Kansas City	6488	405.5	4374	273.4	2114	132.1	421	26.3
32	Cincinnati	6618	413.6	4414	275.9	2204	137.8	455	28.4

[The Gipper]

@clevfan4life said:

NFL Team Total Defense Statistics - 2018

 

Statistics: Total | Downs | Passing | Rushing | Receiving | Returning | Kicking | Punting | Defense | Give/Take
Season: Select One2018 Regular Season2017 Regular Season2016 Regular Season2015 Regular Season2014 Regular Season2013 Regular Season2012 Regular Season2011 Regular Season2010 Regular Season2009 Regular Season2008 Regular Season2007 Regular Season2006 Regular Season2005 Regular Season2004 Regular Season2003 Regular Season2002 Regular Season
League: NFCAFCNFL
Offense | Defense

Net Total Yards Leaders

RK	TEAM	YDS	YDS/G	PASS	P YDS/G	RUSH	R YDS/G	PTS	PTS/G
1	Baltimore	4687	292.9	3360	210.0	1327	82.9	287	17.9
2	Buffalo	4706	294.1	2867	179.2	1839	114.9	374	23.4
3	Chicago	4795	299.7	3515	219.7	1280	80.0	283	17.7
4	Minnesota	4955	309.7	3140	196.3	1815	113.4	341	21.3
5	Jacksonville	4983	311.4	3113	194.6	1870	116.9	316	19.8
6	Pittsburgh	5235	327.2	3697	231.1	1538	96.1	360	22.5
7	Dallas	5268	329.3	3755	234.7	1513	94.6	324	20.3
8	Tennessee	5334	333.4	3471	216.9	1863	116.4	303	18.9
9	LA Chargers	5339	333.7	3646	227.9	1693	105.8	329	20.6
10	Detroit	5360	335.0	3599	224.9	1761	110.1	360	22.5
11	Indianapolis	5431	339.4	3805	237.8	1626	101.6	344	21.5
12	Houston	5490	343.1	4167	260.4	1323	82.7	316	19.8
13	San Francisco	5546	346.6	3732	233.3	1814	113.4	435	27.2
14	New Orleans	5585	349.1	4302	268.9	1283	80.2	353	22.1
15	Carolina	5651	353.2	3847	240.4	1804	112.8	382	23.9
16	Seattle	5653	353.3	3842	240.1	1811	113.2	347	21.7
17	Washington	5654	353.4	3794	237.1	1860	116.3	359	22.4
18	Green Bay	5670	354.4	3752	234.5	1918	119.9	400	25.0
19	LA Rams	5737	358.6	3780	236.3	1957	122.3	384	24.0
20	Arizona	5741	358.8	3262	203.9	2479	154.9	425	26.6
21	New England	5746	359.1	3943	246.4	1803	112.7	325	20.3
22	Denver	5842	365.1	3929	245.6	1913	119.6	349	21.8
23	Philadelphia	5859	366.2	4308	269.3	1551	96.9	348	21.8
24	NY Giants	5942	371.4	4044	252.8	1898	118.6	412	25.8
25	NY Jets	6086	380.4	4065	254.1	2021	126.3	441	27.6
26	Oakland	6102	381.4	3853	240.8	2249	140.6	467	29.2
27	Tampa Bay	6134	383.4	4151	259.4	1983	123.9	464	29.0
28	Atlanta	6152	384.5	4153	259.6	1999	124.9	423	26.4
29	Miami	6257	391.1	3932	245.8	2325	145.3	433	27.1
30	Cleveland	6288	393.0	4125	257.8	2163	135.2	392	24.5
31	Kansas City	6488	405.5	4374	273.4	2114	132.1	421	26.3
32	Cincinnati	6618	413.6	4414	275.9	2204	137.8	455	28.4

I think that the  most critical  criteria here is points per game.  After all, that is what the game is about....which I think puts them at 21st in the league.

So, they had a bit of a bend but don't break defense.....gave up a lot of yards but did not give up corresponding points.   Nevertheless...it needs to vastly improve.

[TexasAg1969]

@the-gipper said:

I think that the  most critical  criteria here is points per game.  After all, that is what the game is about....which I think puts them at 21st in the league.

So, they had a bit of a bend but don't break defense.....gave up a lot of yards but did not give up corresponding points.   Nevertheless...it needs to vastly improve.

Which is why I hope our first 3 rounds are all about defensive picks and/or pickups in free agency. And I still have hope that this coming year we finally see a 100% healthy CB in Wilson from Houston. I'd really like to see what he can add to this team. I don't think we have kept him on IR for 2 years for no reason. If we had no expectations of him in the FO, he would have already been let go.

[gumby73]

here's a top 50 EARly FA browns wish list ... https://www.cleveland.com/expo/sports/g66l-2019/01/bb65f89efd8320/nfl-free-agents-2019-top-50-pl.html (maybe not our list?,lol) early birds have at it. big payouts or in draft we trust?  

[choco]

why do you continually use total defense, like it actually means anything.  its not normalized data, which means any comparisons made with said data are slightly meaningful at best, and completely misleading at worst.

total defense menas nothing.  as an aside to that, ben just threw for over 5000 yards this season and is watching the playoff from his couch.

for someone who writes an awful lot of words concerning football, you dont seem to have a very good grasp of the subject matter.

[The Gipper]

@choco said:

why do you continually use total defense, like it actually means anything.  its not normalized data, which means any comparisons made with said data are slightly meaningful at best, and completely misleading at worst.

total defense menas nothing.  as an aside to that, ben just threw for over 5000 yards this season and is watching the playoff from his couch.

for someone who writes an awful lot of words concerning football, you dont seem to have a very good grasp of the subject matter.

What would you use?  As I said, PPG, to me, is the most important.

I would also think that red zone defense is something vital to look at.  Not sure where to find stats on that.

[choco]

DVOA, as well as a myriad of other metrics. Yards is meaningless without context. 

[hoorta]

@choco said:

DVOA, as well as a myriad of other metrics. Yards is meaningless without context. 

As I already pointed out, the Browns played four overtime games, almost an extra game. Think that might skew the " total yards given up" just a tad?

[choco]

@hoorta said:

As I already pointed out, the Browns played four overtime games, almost an extra game. Think that might skew the " total yards given up" just a tad?

Lol ... Of course not, nor does the fact the team is coached to "wrap, strip, THEN tackle.  

[Clevfan4life]

@choco said:

why do you continually use total defense

1) i didnt just use tot d, i also talked about pass and rush D. U can only put so much "context" into yds given up on the ground and in the air. Over the course of 16 games total def is the final word. 

2) what metric would u use then?  Perhaps how many mean looks or insults were given to the qb across the line pre snap?

[Clevfan4life]

@hoorta said:

As I already pointed out, the Browns played four overtime games, almost an extra game. Think that might skew the " total yards given up" just a tad?

If i was "just" looking at the stats maybe. But ive been bringing up things every week since tge beginning of the season win or loss. Theres certain things that are there whether the beowns win or lose but after a win nobody wanted to hear any negativity whatsoever. But someone who knows a smidgen of football knew some if this seemingly experimentive defensive crap was eventually going to cost us, and it did. 

"In my opinion", had they left the defense intact personnel and scheme wise that essentially toyed with the eagles #1's........i mean we're not just talking now about having won the division, we're talking now about which city the rd to the SB comes through. I honestly beleive that. 

[The Gipper]

@clevfan4life said:

1) i didnt just use tot d, i also talked about pass and rush D. U can only put so much "context" into yds given up on the ground and in the air. Over the course of 16 games total def is the final word. 

I don't think it is.

2) what metric would u use then?  Perhaps how many mean looks or insults were given to the qb across the line pre snap?\

LIke I said:  Points given up.  There is a reason they keep score in these games. The fewer the points you give up, the more likely you are to win. 

[Clevfan4life]

@the-gipper said:

im not doubting you that points given up is a "not" inconsequential metric. It shows this defense stepped up in the red zone. I've given them props for doing that btw, at crucial times during the season some individuals absolutely stood up...have been saying that from the beginning of this thread. The talent on this defense is top 5 material. I honestly believe with another pass rusher and solid run defender in Ansah on the LDE and maybe another DT either from FA or the draft....this defense could be #1. My issue is with the weird hybrid scheme Wiliams employed a lot throughout the season. I let it go for a time but it seemed like it was biting us in the ass at all the wrong times. It never looked settled. I believe that the rushing TD that Collins missed his assignment on is a direct result of players having too much on their minds pre snap, just like Baker who said after Hue and Haley were gone...we started doing things we were good at. 

And it isn't just Collins that's screwed up assignments here and there throughout the whole season. I mean we're talking about Kirksey too, and this guys been a stud. Collins comes from NE where there's no lack of complexity. And I've pointed out numerous times that while standing up Myles is seemingly fine, cause he's a freak.....why would you standup depth players like Zettel when they come in? Anthony Zettel has no business standing up I don't care what any of you think. It's ridiculous tbh. Depth players especially need to strictly doing what they're built for. 

[hoorta]

@clevfan4life said:

If i was "just" looking at the stats maybe. But ive been bringing up things every week since tge beginning of the season win or loss. There's certain things that are there whether the beowns win or lose but after a win nobody wanted to hear any negativity whatsoever. But someone who knows a smidgen of football knew some if this seemingly experimentive defensive crap was eventually going to cost us, and it did. 

"In my opinion", had they left the defense intact personnel and scheme wise that essentially toyed with the eagles #1's........i mean we're not just talking now about having won the division, we're talking now about which city the rd to the SB comes through. I honestly believe that. 

Yeah, Williams does play a high risk, high reward type of defense. Has the rest of the league caught up with it? Maybe. But I also remember last year with that "better" defense, he had Peppers playing so far back he was in a different area code.  

As to the guys we let go & keeping things intact on defense- Shelton is second string with the Patriots, and Meder is currently out of football. So looks like Dorsey (and probably with input from Williams) was right again. 

You can win a Super Bowl without having a top 10 defense. The Colts did it with Manning. Let's see if Kansas City can win one by outscoring everybody.   

[choco]

Only bad move in hindsight was letting nassib go, but even he was just a depth guy here and wouldn't have moved the needle much.  Shelton hasn't even dressed for the pats in more than a month.  

Imagine that....an imperfect football team! Oh the huge manatee!

[The Gipper]

@clevfan4life said:

im not doubting you that points given up is a "not" inconsequential metric. It shows this defense stepped up in the red zone. I've given them props for doing that btw, at crucial times during the season some individuals absolutely stood up...

Well, I said that I don't know what the stats are in red zone defense....though I suspect they are pretty fair....much better than their overall defensive ranking.

have been saying that from the beginning of this thread. The talent on this defense is top 5 material.

No, no, no, no, no.   They have some good players, but they are far from Top 5 in talent.  I believe they would need another elite player at each level...DB, LB, DL to reach that height.

I honestly believe with another pass rusher and solid run defender in Ansah on the LDE and maybe another DT either from FA or the draft....this defense could be #1.

Well...that is half the DL.  Sure, two more elite DL would help a lot. 

My issue is with the weird hybrid scheme Wiliams employed a lot throughout the season. I let it go for a time but it seemed like it was biting us in the ass at all the wrong times. It never looked settled. I believe that the rushing TD that Collins missed his assignment on is a direct result of players having too much on their minds pre snap, just like Baker who said after Hue and Haley were gone...we started doing things we were good at. 

And it isn't just Collins that's screwed up assignments here and there throughout the whole season. I mean we're talking about Kirksey too, and this guys been a stud. Collins comes from NE where there's no lack of complexity. And I've pointed out numerous times that while standing up Myles is seemingly fine, cause he's a freak.....why would you standup depth players like Zettel when they come in? Anthony Zettel has no business standing up I don't care what any of you think. It's ridiculous tbh. Depth players especially need to strictly doing what they're built for. 

Beyond my depth of knowledge to comprehend the nuances you are talking about.  Not sure it is in your depth of knowledge either.

[The Gipper]

@hoorta said:

Yeah, Williams does play a high risk, high reward type of defense. Has the rest of the league caught up with it? Maybe. But I also remember last year with that "better" defense, he had Peppers playing so far back he was in a different area code.  

As to the guys we let go & keeping things intact on defense- Shelton is second string with the Patriots, and Meder is currently out of football. So looks like Dorsey (and probably with input from Williams) was right again. 

You can win a Super Bowl without having a top 10 defense. The Colts did it with Manning. Let's see if Kansas City can win one by outscoring everybody.   

actually, Shelton is also on the street as soon as the season is over, I believe.