IMO Our def scheme sucks...
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here's a top 50 EARly FA browns wish list ... https://www.cleveland.com/expo/sports/g66l-2019/01/bb65f89efd8320/nfl-free-agents-2019-top-50-pl.html (maybe not our list?,lol) early birds have at it. big payouts or in draft we trust?
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why do you continually use total defense, like it actually means anything. its not normalized data, which means any comparisons made with said data are slightly meaningful at best, and completely misleading at worst.
total defense menas nothing. as an aside to that, ben just threw for over 5000 yards this season and is watching the playoff from his couch.
for someone who writes an awful lot of words concerning football, you dont seem to have a very good grasp of the subject matter.
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why do you continually use total defense, like it actually means anything. its not normalized data, which means any comparisons made with said data are slightly meaningful at best, and completely misleading at worst.
total defense menas nothing. as an aside to that, ben just threw for over 5000 yards this season and is watching the playoff from his couch.
for someone who writes an awful lot of words concerning football, you dont seem to have a very good grasp of the subject matter.
why do you continually use total defense, like it actually means anything. its not normalized data, which means any comparisons made with said data are slightly meaningful at best, and completely misleading at worst.
total defense menas nothing. as an aside to that, ben just threw for over 5000 yards this season and is watching the playoff from his couch.
for someone who writes an awful lot of words concerning football, you dont seem to have a very good grasp of the subject matter.
What would you use? As I said, PPG, to me, is the most important.
I would also think that red zone defense is something vital to look at. Not sure where to find stats on that.
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DVOA, as well as a myriad of other metrics. Yards is meaningless without context.
As I already pointed out, the Browns played four overtime games, almost an extra game. Think that might skew the " total yards given up" just a tad?
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why do you continually use total defense, like it actually means anything. its not normalized data, which means any comparisons made with said data are slightly meaningful at best, and completely misleading at worst.
total defense menas nothing. as an aside to that, ben just threw for over 5000 yards this season and is watching the playoff from his couch.
for someone who writes an awful lot of words concerning football, you dont seem to have a very good grasp of the subject matter.
why do you continually use total defense
1) i didnt just use tot d, i also talked about pass and rush D. U can only put so much "context" into yds given up on the ground and in the air. Over the course of 16 games total def is the final word.
2) what metric would u use then? Perhaps how many mean looks or insults were given to the qb across the line pre snap?
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As I already pointed out, the Browns played four overtime games, almost an extra game. Think that might skew the " total yards given up" just a tad?
If i was "just" looking at the stats maybe. But ive been bringing up things every week since tge beginning of the season win or loss. Theres certain things that are there whether the beowns win or lose but after a win nobody wanted to hear any negativity whatsoever. But someone who knows a smidgen of football knew some if this seemingly experimentive defensive crap was eventually going to cost us, and it did.
"In my opinion", had they left the defense intact personnel and scheme wise that essentially toyed with the eagles #1's........i mean we're not just talking now about having won the division, we're talking now about which city the rd to the SB comes through. I honestly beleive that.
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why do you continually use total defense
1) i didnt just use tot d, i also talked about pass and rush D. U can only put so much "context" into yds given up on the ground and in the air. Over the course of 16 games total def is the final word.
2) what metric would u use then? Perhaps how many mean looks or insults were given to the qb across the line pre snap?
1) i didnt just use tot d, i also talked about pass and rush D. U can only put so much "context" into yds given up on the ground and in the air. Over the course of 16 games total def is the final word.
I don't think it is.
2) what metric would u use then? Perhaps how many mean looks or insults were given to the qb across the line pre snap?\
LIke I said: Points given up. There is a reason they keep score in these games. The fewer the points you give up, the more likely you are to win.
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1) i didnt just use tot d, i also talked about pass and rush D. U can only put so much "context" into yds given up on the ground and in the air. Over the course of 16 games total def is the final word.
I don't think it is.
2) what metric would u use then? Perhaps how many mean looks or insults were given to the qb across the line pre snap?\
LIke I said: Points given up. There is a reason they keep score in these games. The fewer the points you give up, the more likely you are to win.
im not doubting you that points given up is a "not" inconsequential metric. It shows this defense stepped up in the red zone. I've given them props for doing that btw, at crucial times during the season some individuals absolutely stood up...have been saying that from the beginning of this thread. The talent on this defense is top 5 material. I honestly believe with another pass rusher and solid run defender in Ansah on the LDE and maybe another DT either from FA or the draft....this defense could be #1. My issue is with the weird hybrid scheme Wiliams employed a lot throughout the season. I let it go for a time but it seemed like it was biting us in the ass at all the wrong times. It never looked settled. I believe that the rushing TD that Collins missed his assignment on is a direct result of players having too much on their minds pre snap, just like Baker who said after Hue and Haley were gone...we started doing things we were good at.
And it isn't just Collins that's screwed up assignments here and there throughout the whole season. I mean we're talking about Kirksey too, and this guys been a stud. Collins comes from NE where there's no lack of complexity. And I've pointed out numerous times that while standing up Myles is seemingly fine, cause he's a freak.....why would you standup depth players like Zettel when they come in? Anthony Zettel has no business standing up I don't care what any of you think. It's ridiculous tbh. Depth players especially need to strictly doing what they're built for.
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As I already pointed out, the Browns played four overtime games, almost an extra game. Think that might skew the " total yards given up" just a tad?
If i was "just" looking at the stats maybe. But ive been bringing up things every week since tge beginning of the season win or loss. Theres certain things that are there whether the beowns win or lose but after a win nobody wanted to hear any negativity whatsoever. But someone who knows a smidgen of football knew some if this seemingly experimentive defensive crap was eventually going to cost us, and it did.
"In my opinion", had they left the defense intact personnel and scheme wise that essentially toyed with the eagles #1's........i mean we're not just talking now about having won the division, we're talking now about which city the rd to the SB comes through. I honestly beleive that.
If i was "just" looking at the stats maybe. But ive been bringing up things every week since tge beginning of the season win or loss. There's certain things that are there whether the beowns win or lose but after a win nobody wanted to hear any negativity whatsoever. But someone who knows a smidgen of football knew some if this seemingly experimentive defensive crap was eventually going to cost us, and it did.
"In my opinion", had they left the defense intact personnel and scheme wise that essentially toyed with the eagles #1's........i mean we're not just talking now about having won the division, we're talking now about which city the rd to the SB comes through. I honestly believe that.
Yeah, Williams does play a high risk, high reward type of defense. Has the rest of the league caught up with it? Maybe. But I also remember last year with that "better" defense, he had Peppers playing so far back he was in a different area code.
As to the guys we let go & keeping things intact on defense- Shelton is second string with the Patriots, and Meder is currently out of football. So looks like Dorsey (and probably with input from Williams) was right again.
You can win a Super Bowl without having a top 10 defense. The Colts did it with Manning. Let's see if Kansas City can win one by outscoring everybody.
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im not doubting you that points given up is a "not" inconsequential metric. It shows this defense stepped up in the red zone. I've given them props for doing that btw, at crucial times during the season some individuals absolutely stood up...have been saying that from the beginning of this thread. The talent on this defense is top 5 material. I honestly believe with another pass rusher and solid run defender in Ansah on the LDE and maybe another DT either from FA or the draft....this defense could be #1. My issue is with the weird hybrid scheme Wiliams employed a lot throughout the season. I let it go for a time but it seemed like it was biting us in the ass at all the wrong times. It never looked settled. I believe that the rushing TD that Collins missed his assignment on is a direct result of players having too much on their minds pre snap, just like Baker who said after Hue and Haley were gone...we started doing things we were good at.
And it isn't just Collins that's screwed up assignments here and there throughout the whole season. I mean we're talking about Kirksey too, and this guys been a stud. Collins comes from NE where there's no lack of complexity. And I've pointed out numerous times that while standing up Myles is seemingly fine, cause he's a freak.....why would you standup depth players like Zettel when they come in? Anthony Zettel has no business standing up I don't care what any of you think. It's ridiculous tbh. Depth players especially need to strictly doing what they're built for.
im not doubting you that points given up is a "not" inconsequential metric. It shows this defense stepped up in the red zone. I've given them props for doing that btw, at crucial times during the season some individuals absolutely stood up...
Well, I said that I don't know what the stats are in red zone defense....though I suspect they are pretty fair....much better than their overall defensive ranking.
have been saying that from the beginning of this thread. The talent on this defense is top 5 material.
No, no, no, no, no. They have some good players, but they are far from Top 5 in talent. I believe they would need another elite player at each level...DB, LB, DL to reach that height.
I honestly believe with another pass rusher and solid run defender in Ansah on the LDE and maybe another DT either from FA or the draft....this defense could be #1.
Well...that is half the DL. Sure, two more elite DL would help a lot.
My issue is with the weird hybrid scheme Wiliams employed a lot throughout the season. I let it go for a time but it seemed like it was biting us in the ass at all the wrong times. It never looked settled. I believe that the rushing TD that Collins missed his assignment on is a direct result of players having too much on their minds pre snap, just like Baker who said after Hue and Haley were gone...we started doing things we were good at.
And it isn't just Collins that's screwed up assignments here and there throughout the whole season. I mean we're talking about Kirksey too, and this guys been a stud. Collins comes from NE where there's no lack of complexity. And I've pointed out numerous times that while standing up Myles is seemingly fine, cause he's a freak.....why would you standup depth players like Zettel when they come in? Anthony Zettel has no business standing up I don't care what any of you think. It's ridiculous tbh. Depth players especially need to strictly doing what they're built for.
Beyond my depth of knowledge to comprehend the nuances you are talking about. Not sure it is in your depth of knowledge either.
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If i was "just" looking at the stats maybe. But ive been bringing up things every week since tge beginning of the season win or loss. There's certain things that are there whether the beowns win or lose but after a win nobody wanted to hear any negativity whatsoever. But someone who knows a smidgen of football knew some if this seemingly experimentive defensive crap was eventually going to cost us, and it did.
"In my opinion", had they left the defense intact personnel and scheme wise that essentially toyed with the eagles #1's........i mean we're not just talking now about having won the division, we're talking now about which city the rd to the SB comes through. I honestly believe that.
Yeah, Williams does play a high risk, high reward type of defense. Has the rest of the league caught up with it? Maybe. But I also remember last year with that "better" defense, he had Peppers playing so far back he was in a different area code.
As to the guys we let go & keeping things intact on defense- Shelton is second string with the Patriots, and Meder is currently out of football. So looks like Dorsey (and probably with input from Williams) was right again.
You can win a Super Bowl without having a top 10 defense. The Colts did it with Manning. Let's see if Kansas City can win one by outscoring everybody.
Yeah, Williams does play a high risk, high reward type of defense. Has the rest of the league caught up with it? Maybe. But I also remember last year with that "better" defense, he had Peppers playing so far back he was in a different area code.
As to the guys we let go & keeping things intact on defense- Shelton is second string with the Patriots, and Meder is currently out of football. So looks like Dorsey (and probably with input from Williams) was right again.
You can win a Super Bowl without having a top 10 defense. The Colts did it with Manning. Let's see if Kansas City can win one by outscoring everybody.
actually, Shelton is also on the street as soon as the season is over, I believe.
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Only bad move in hindsight was letting nassib go, but even he was just a depth guy here and wouldn't have moved the needle much. Shelton hasn't even dressed for the pats in more than a month.
Imagine that....an imperfect football team! Oh the huge manatee!
Only bad move in hindsight was letting nassib go, but even he was just a depth guy here and wouldn't have moved the needle much. Shelton hasn't even dressed for the pats in more than a month.
Nassib imo was crucial depth at the edges. Poo bear actually played pretty well but he was primarily LDE, Nassib would have subbed in both at LDE and RDE. Myles was on the field a bit too much this year for my liking. He usually never got a break till late in the 3rd. I would have preferred the rotation of Myles, Smith, Nassib and Avery. But the interior was our most glaring deficiency. I pointed out before the season started that letting Meder and Shelton go was probably going to nerf Jobi a little bit, and it did. He had to do too much of the heavy lifting and it started to show after a couple games. First couple games he was a terror coming through the line, the other guys we brought in just were not doing their share. So Jobi started to see too many doubles and the other guy couldn't make the O line pay for that. Shelton and Meder, although not world beaters....would push single blockers regularly. I stated from the beginning that's what we lost when we let those two go. I was ok with Shelton cause we had meder, than we let Meder go I was like is Jobi now the main block eater? That's not utilizing him properly at all. And the season played that out.
Those guys we brought in a week before the season started, I mean they were almost complete no shows for the entire first half of the season. That odenigbo guy that was supposedly better than Nassib…..I don't think he ever suited up, like im not sure they even gave him a jersey. Not even sure he's still on the team or even the PS.
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why do you continually use total defense
1) i didnt just use tot d, i also talked about pass and rush D. U can only put so much "context" into yds given up on the ground and in the air. Over the course of 16 games total def is the final word.
2) what metric would u use then? Perhaps how many mean looks or insults were given to the qb across the line pre snap?
2) what metric would u use then? Perhaps how many mean looks or insults were given to the qb across the line pre snap?
When ya get some time, here's a good place to start. It's advanced metrics, but it's a normalized stat of how teams stack up against one another, rather than bulk stats. Don't get me wrong, bulk stats are useful and important, but they really don't tell much of a story by themselves. DVOA attempts to quantify those individual bulk stats into a normalized overall efficiency.
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why do you continually use total defense
1) i didnt just use tot d, i also talked about pass and rush D. U can only put so much "context" into yds given up on the ground and in the air. Over the course of 16 games total def is the final word.
2) what metric would u use then? Perhaps how many mean looks or insults were given to the qb across the line pre snap?
1) i didnt just use tot d, i also talked about pass and rush D. U can only put so much "context" into yds given up on the ground and in the air. Over the course of 16 games total def is the final word.
2) what metric would u use then? Perhaps how many mean looks or insults were given to the qb across the line pre snap?
DVOA is a much better stat for measuring the overall effectiveness of a defense.
The Browns D finished with a -2.5%, good for 12th in the NFL. In 2017, they ranked 17th.
On the flip side, our O finished ranked 18th, up from dead last in 2017.
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You do know what the read option is right?
What kind of read are we talking? IZ? OZ? Veer? Inverted Veer? Speed option? Are we reading an End? A tackle? A backer? Who is the pitch man? Any built in pass option with that? How far do you want to take this before you have to consult google....?
My sarcasm was from your "hit the QB" comment... Lamar was hit plenty of times and also did a good job at protecting himself. Speaking in generalities and poor assumptions tends to irk me.
What kind of read are we talking? IZ? OZ? Veer? Inverted Veer? Speed option? Are we reading an End? A tackle? A backer? Who is the pitch man? Any built in pass option with that? How far do you want to take this before you have to consult google....?
My sarcasm was from your "hit the QB" comment... Lamar was hit plenty of times and also did a good job at protecting himself.
Simpler point... the RPO is not the old "option".
In the old run option the QB is fair game for any "clean" hit after pitching the ball, even under today's rules.
Not so in the RPO where the QB is in the pocket where when he "pulls the ball" either:
- passes and is afforded all the current game's protections, or
- runs in which case, if he made the proper read, no defender is in a position to make a hit.
Oops.. I see bjh already made this point...
Meh.... Flag me for "piling on".
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Your guy's rose colored glasses are the direct result of Baker taking over the team. Had he not, that defense would have completely folded by midseason. They would have been on the field forever. But if you objectively look at the defense, it's worse than last year and spent far fewer snaps on the field cause we finally got an offense worth a damn. The secondary is building something for sure, it's not like Im completely down on them. The talent at certain spots is absolutely there...this "should" have easily been a top 15 defense. The only reason I can conceive of why it wasn't are these weird hybrid looks I've been pointing out for prob 2 months now. They weren't fooling anyone and it looked like it wasn't putting our talented players in positions to make plays. That's on the DC, period. I could let Sunday go if it was the first time we got run over and it was our first look at a pro RO offense blah blah blah.....but we were near dead last against the run and you can't have that if you want a defense that supports the offense. That concept should not have to be explained to any of you.
Your guy's rose colored glasses are the direct result of Baker taking over the team. Had he not, that defense would have completely folded by midseason. They would have been on the field forever. But if you objectively look at the defense, it's worse than last year and spent far fewer snaps on the field cause we finally got an offense worth a damn. The secondary is building something for sure, it's not like Im completely down on them. The talent at certain spots is absolutely there...this "should" have easily been a top 15 defense. The only reason I can conceive of why it wasn't are these weird hybrid looks I've been pointing out for prob 2 months now. They weren't fooling anyone and it looked like it wasn't putting our talented players in positions to make plays. That's on the DC, period. I could let Sunday go if it was the first time we got run over and it was our first look at a pro RO offense blah blah blah.....but we were near dead last against the run and you can't have that if you want a defense that supports the offense. That concept should not have to be explained to any of you.
Now you're just sticking your fingers in your ears and loudly going "LaLaLaLa... La".
How can you do that and type at the same time?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
What kind of read are we talking? IZ? OZ? Veer? Inverted Veer? Speed option? Are we reading an End? A tackle? A backer? Who is the pitch man? Any built in pass option with that? How far do you want to take this before you have to consult google....?
My sarcasm was from your "hit the QB" comment... Lamar was hit plenty of times and also did a good job at protecting himself.
Simpler point... the RPO is not the old "option".
In the old run option the QB is fair game for any "clean" hit after pitching the ball, even under today's rules.
Not so in the RPO where the QB is in the pocket where when he "pulls the ball" either:
- passes and is afforded all the current game's protections, or
- runs in which case, if he made the proper read, no defender is in a position to make a hit.
Oops.. I see bjh already made this point...
Meh.... Flag me for "piling on".
Simpler point... the RPO is not the old "option".
In the old run option the QB is fair game for any "clean" hit after pitching the ball, even under today's rules.
Not so in the RPO where the QB is in the pocket where when he "pulls the ball" either:
- passes and is afforded all the current game's protections, or
- runs in which case, if he made the proper read, no defender is in a position to make a hit.
Oops.. I see bjh already made this point...
Meh.... Flag me for "piling on".
Have to take into consideration RPO's with pulls and rollouts/sprint outs. Don't think QB'a are afforded the same protection under the rules at that point.
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