Official: Lee to Phillies
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My stance is not due to just THIS trade, but look at recent history. What do we have to show for Colon, Thome, Vizquel, Sabathia, Manny? Should I go on? Will I continue to pay the ticket, food, & drink prices of today for a putrid product? HELL NO!
The problem may be with the game itself & I may be wrong. I simply refuse to support the Dolan owned Indians anymore. My viewpoint is mine. I will not push it on anyone else & what is right for me may not be right for others. We are all entitled to our opinions & handling of situations.
Mike
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never trade a bird in the hand for two in the bush.
Basically Shapiro has given up on the club in the immediate future.
Stupidest trade ever.
We're not going anywhere this year. Would you rather have a year of Cliff Lee while we're rebuilding and bringing all our young guys up, then see him walk in free agency?
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My stance is not due to just THIS trade, but look at recent history. What do we have to show for Colon, Thome, Vizquel, Sabathia, Manny? Should I go on? Will I continue to pay the ticket, food, & drink prices of today for a putrid product? HELL NO!
The problem may be with the game itself & I may be wrong. I simply refuse to support the Dolan owned Indians anymore. My viewpoint is mine. I will not push it on anyone else & what is right for me may not be right for others. We are all entitled to our opinions & handling of situations.
Mike
My stance is not due to just THIS trade, but look at recent history. What do we have to show for Colon, Thome, Vizquel, Sabathia, Manny? Should I go on? Will I continue to pay the ticket, food, & drink prices of today for a putrid product? HELL NO!
The problem may be with the game itself & I may be wrong. I simply refuse to support the Dolan owned Indians anymore. My viewpoint is mine. I will not push it on anyone else & what is right for me may not be right for others. We are all entitled to our opinions & handling of situations.
Mike
Hey, that's your call and you're certainly allowed your opinion. Thought I said as much in my earlier post.
Still, it's weird that you led off your "what do we have to show for" comment with Bartolo.
Beanpot
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My stance is not due to just THIS trade, but look at recent history. What do we have to show for Colon, Thome, Vizquel, Sabathia, Manny? Should I go on? Will I continue to pay the ticket, food, & drink prices of today for a putrid product? HELL NO!
The problem may be with the game itself & I may be wrong. I simply refuse to support the Dolan owned Indians anymore. My viewpoint is mine. I will not push it on anyone else & what is right for me may not be right for others. We are all entitled to our opinions & handling of situations.
Mike
What do we have to show for Colon
Grady Sizemore
Thome, Vizquel, Manny?
Two trips to the World Series
Sabathia
Don't mean to pile on him, but if he pitched well in the playoffs we could've won a title.
Players come and go. Right now, our roster just isn't very good. We got lucky in 2007 with CC and Fausto clicking on all cylinders and Borowski somehow saving 40+ games, not to mention Westbrook and Byrd carrying us in the playoffs. How many World Series teams have players like Ryan Garko and Jhonny Peralta at the corner infield spots? There are a lot of ways to win, but it's pretty damn hard to do without at least one cornerstone slugger in your lineup. If Hafner stays healthy, maybe he can be that guy. But would you really take him over any of the players like Manny, Longoria, Howard, Utley, A-Rod, Teixiera, or Youkilis?
So we don't have a masher. We don't have the team speed to make up for it. Choo has been our best baserunner this year...but doesn't have the guys hitting behind him for it to make a difference. We're weak defensively. We have (well, had) one reliable pitcher.
That's not a team where you re-up everyone's contracts and try to fill a hole or two. That's a team you need to completely revamp. There's no identity, no cohesion, but there are a lot of blue chip prospects coming up through the pipeline. I just don't understand how all of that would add up to people wanting to stand pat.
(Edit) Just checked the stats...and before someone kills me for it, I admit, it seems like Westbrook and Byrd weren't as good in the playoffs as I remembered. Carry on.
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What do we have to show for Colon
Grady Sizemore
Thome, Vizquel, Manny?
Two trips to the World Series
Sabathia
Don't mean to pile on him, but if he pitched well in the playoffs we could've won a title.
Players come and go. Right now, our roster just isn't very good. We got lucky in 2007 with CC and Fausto clicking on all cylinders and Borowski somehow saving 40+ games, not to mention Westbrook and Byrd carrying us in the playoffs. How many World Series teams have players like Ryan Garko and Jhonny Peralta at the corner infield spots? There are a lot of ways to win, but it's pretty damn hard to do without at least one cornerstone slugger in your lineup. If Hafner stays healthy, maybe he can be that guy. But would you really take him over any of the players like Manny, Longoria, Howard, Utley, A-Rod, Teixiera, or Youkilis?
So we don't have a masher. We don't have the team speed to make up for it. Choo has been our best baserunner this year...but doesn't have the guys hitting behind him for it to make a difference. We're weak defensively. We have (well, had) one reliable pitcher.
That's not a team where you re-up everyone's contracts and try to fill a hole or two. That's a team you need to completely revamp. There's no identity, no cohesion, but there are a lot of blue chip prospects coming up through the pipeline. I just don't understand how all of that would add up to people wanting to stand pat.
(Edit) Just checked the stats...and before someone kills me for it, I admit, it seems like Westbrook and Byrd weren't as good in the playoffs as I remembered. Carry on.
Grady Sizemore
Two trips to the World Series
Don't mean to pile on him, but if he pitched well in the playoffs we could've won a title.
Players come and go. Right now, our roster just isn't very good. We got lucky in 2007 with CC and Fausto clicking on all cylinders and Borowski somehow saving 40+ games, not to mention Westbrook and Byrd carrying us in the playoffs. How many World Series teams have players like Ryan Garko and Jhonny Peralta at the corner infield spots? There are a lot of ways to win, but it's pretty damn hard to do without at least one cornerstone slugger in your lineup. If Hafner stays healthy, maybe he can be that guy. But would you really take him over any of the players like Manny, Longoria, Howard, Utley, A-Rod, Teixiera, or Youkilis?
So we don't have a masher. We don't have the team speed to make up for it. Choo has been our best baserunner this year...but doesn't have the guys hitting behind him for it to make a difference. We're weak defensively. We have (well, had) one reliable pitcher.
That's not a team where you re-up everyone's contracts and try to fill a hole or two. That's a team you need to completely revamp. There's no identity, no cohesion, but there are a lot of blue chip prospects coming up through the pipeline. I just don't understand how all of that would add up to people wanting to stand pat.
(Edit) Just checked the stats...and before someone kills me for it, I admit, it seems like Westbrook and Byrd weren't as good in the playoffs as I remembered. Carry on.
CIMO, you might be the only one in Cleveland happy with the trade.
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Grady Sizemore
Two trips to the World Series
Don't mean to pile on him, but if he pitched well in the playoffs we could've won a title.
Players come and go. Right now, our roster just isn't very good. We got lucky in 2007 with CC and Fausto clicking on all cylinders and Borowski somehow saving 40+ games, not to mention Westbrook and Byrd carrying us in the playoffs. How many World Series teams have players like Ryan Garko and Jhonny Peralta at the corner infield spots? There are a lot of ways to win, but it's pretty damn hard to do without at least one cornerstone slugger in your lineup. If Hafner stays healthy, maybe he can be that guy. But would you really take him over any of the players like Manny, Longoria, Howard, Utley, A-Rod, Teixiera, or Youkilis?
So we don't have a masher. We don't have the team speed to make up for it. Choo has been our best baserunner this year...but doesn't have the guys hitting behind him for it to make a difference. We're weak defensively. We have (well, had) one reliable pitcher.
That's not a team where you re-up everyone's contracts and try to fill a hole or two. That's a team you need to completely revamp. There's no identity, no cohesion, but there are a lot of blue chip prospects coming up through the pipeline. I just don't understand how all of that would add up to people wanting to stand pat.
(Edit) Just checked the stats...and before someone kills me for it, I admit, it seems like Westbrook and Byrd weren't as good in the playoffs as I remembered. Carry on.
CIMO, you might be the only one in Cleveland happy with the trade.
CIMO, you might be the only one in Cleveland happy with the trade.
Technically I'm in Fort Worth, but point taken.
That said, I invite anyone to refute any of these points on why the trade should've been made.
1. The Indians aren't contending this year or next
2. The Indians weren't going to re-sign him
3. No team is trading a legit, young, major league ready ace-caliber pitcher for a rental. Why do you think the Phillies didn't get Halladay?
4. The current roster is full of holes that can't be filled with a couple free agents or trades
5. With Rondon, LaPorta, Santana, Brantley, Weglarz, Chisenhall, and a handful of high upside young relievers and the current crop of Huff, Laffey, etc improving, it shows we were already built for the long-term before we started trading players this year.
All of those things, to me, make this a no-brainer. I don't like seeing a Cy Young winner go...but he just wasn't doing anything for us, and we weren't going to re-sign him. It makes no sense to me to hang onto him and waste more great years from a player when the team's not winning anything.
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1) Colon/Sizemore...pretty much a wash.
2) WITH Thome, Manny, & Vizquel...or any two of them & we WIN a World Series.
3) Sabathia's pitching during the season was a big part of us getting to the series.
My point was that even with getting Grady, we have lost FAR more than we have gained during the Dolan/Shapiro regime.
The "MO" is clear....we do NOT retain our free agents & we do NOT make major trades that benefit us in any way other than cutting payroll, although how much do we REALLY save by overpaying 4 journeymen rather than fairly paying ONE star? We won't even try to get a solid, experienced Manager. Sorry, but I do not see a commitment to fielding a winning team.
As I stated before, I may be wrong, but these are things I see.
Mike
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Shapiro on the deal:
"At the root of this deal was balancing the conviction of our ability to compete in 2010 with the
opportunity to impact the team's construction for years to come," said Cleveland Indians
Executive Vice President & General Manager Mark Shapiro. "Without the sense of confidence
in the team's ultimate competitiveness, we acted aggressively to add players that will impact
the organization in 2010 and beyond."
He of course leaves out any mention of money, presumably due to an edict from ownership.
Look, I'm not crying about this trade and I'd completely understand if Shapiro/Dolan shoved a balance sheet in front of a monitor while talking about the need to shave payroll. Most of us here are adults and we understand that we're living in a completely different world from the one we lived in 15 years ago. Blame as many people as you want for that reality if it makes you feel better, but it is what it is and no amount of ticket-tearing-up/merchandise-burning/complete-ignoring is going to change it.
I'd just like to know if that lack of "sense of confidence in the team's ultimate competitiveness" has more to do with future payroll projections than it does current young talent in the organization. Likely both, but I'd like to hear as much from the FO.
Beanpot
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1) Colon/Sizemore...pretty much a wash.
2) WITH Thome, Manny, & Vizquel...or any two of them & we WIN a World Series.
3) Sabathia's pitching during the season was a big part of us getting to the series.
My point was that even with getting Grady, we have lost FAR more than we have gained during the Dolan/Shapiro regime.
The "MO" is clear....we do NOT retain our free agents & we do NOT make major trades that benefit us in any way other than cutting payroll, although how much do we REALLY save by overpaying 4 journeymen rather than fairly paying ONE star? We won't even try to get a solid, experienced Manager. Sorry, but I do not see a commitment to fielding a winning team.
As I stated before, I may be wrong, but these are things I see.
Mike
2) WITH Thome, Manny, & Vizquel...or any two of them & we WIN a World Series.
Wait, we had all three of these guys for seven years together. Seven. All three of them together. What happened those years?
Beanpot
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1) Colon/Sizemore...pretty much a wash.
2) WITH Thome, Manny, & Vizquel...or any two of them & we WIN a World Series.
3) Sabathia's pitching during the season was a big part of us getting to the series.
My point was that even with getting Grady, we have lost FAR more than we have gained during the Dolan/Shapiro regime.
The "MO" is clear....we do NOT retain our free agents & we do NOT make major trades that benefit us in any way other than cutting payroll, although how much do we REALLY save by overpaying 4 journeymen rather than fairly paying ONE star? We won't even try to get a solid, experienced Manager. Sorry, but I do not see a commitment to fielding a winning team.
As I stated before, I may be wrong, but these are things I see.
Mike
1) Colon/Sizemore...pretty much a wash.
Remember back when I said that you're entitled to your opinion? Said it with a smiley face and everything? That still stands.
However, how in the hell do you break down the Colon deal to "Colon/Sizemore...pretty much a wash" in the same exact thread that you're stomping on your Wahoo lid and giving up on the team due to the trading of Cliff Lee!?!?
There are a ton of metrics out there that place values on trades and that "pretty much a wash" trade is often referred to as being historically good. Even if you don't buy into that kinda stuff, I've yet to come across anyone who considered that deal to be a wash. Lost opportunity with Phillips, sure. Wash given Lee/Sizemore for 800ish innings from Bart? Good God no.
Beanpot
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2) WITH Thome, Manny, & Vizquel...or any two of them & we WIN a World Series.
Wait, we had all three of these guys for seven years together. Seven. All three of them together. What happened those years?
Beanpot
Wait, we had all three of these guys for seven years together. Seven. All three of them together. What happened those years?
Beanpot
I don't believe I ADDRESSED those years with a different team, did I? Although they were consistent winners & appeared in TWO World Series. I'll address those years now. In the years 1994 through 2000 when they were together, they finished 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, & 2nd. The Indians teams SINCE those 3 were together haven't fared so well...1st, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 1st, & 3rd.
What I DID address was a playoff appearance with the likes of Peralta, a "non-existent" Hafner, & a plethora of journeymen in left field. Replace 2 of them with Omar & Manny or Thome & things may have been a lot different. This regime believes in quantity over quality. I don't.
I rest my case.
Mike
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Wait, we had all three of these guys for seven years together. Seven. All three of them together. What happened those years?
Beanpot
I don't believe I ADDRESSED those years with a different team, did I? Although they were consistent winners & appeared in TWO World Series. I'll address those years now. In the years 1994 through 2000 when they were together, they finished 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, & 2nd. The Indians teams SINCE those 3 were together haven't fared so well...1st, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 1st, & 3rd.
What I DID address was a playoff appearance with the likes of Peralta, a "non-existent" Hafner, & a plethora of journeymen in left field. Replace 2 of them with Omar & Manny or Thome & things may have been a lot different. This regime believes in quantity over quality. I don't.
I rest my case.
Mike
I don't believe I ADDRESSED those years with a different team, did I? Although they were consistent winners & appeared in TWO World Series. I'll address those years now. In the years 1994 through 2000 when they were together, they finished 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, & 2nd. The Indians teams SINCE those 3 were together haven't fared so well...1st, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 1st, & 3rd.
What I DID address was a playoff appearance with the likes of Peralta, a "non-existent" Hafner, & a plethora of journeymen in left field. Replace 2 of them with Omar & Manny or Thome & things may have been a lot different. This regime believes in quantity over quality. I don't.
I rest my case.
Mike
Terrific case. It's in complete conflict with your initial comment that "WITH Thome, Manny, & Vizquel...or any two of them & we WIN a World Series" but it's neat all the same. Impossible to prove, simple to claim. There's not a better combination available to those who seek to prove improvable nonsense.
Beanpot
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1) Colon/Sizemore...pretty much a wash.
Remember back when I said that you're entitled to your opinion? Said it with a smiley face and everything? That still stands.
However, how in the hell do you break down the Colon deal to "Colon/Sizemore...pretty much a wash" in the same exact thread that you're stomping on your Wahoo lid and giving up on the team due to the trading of Cliff Lee!?!?
There are a ton of metrics out there that place values on trades and that "pretty much a wash" trade is often referred to as being historically good. Even if you don't buy into that kinda stuff, I've yet to come across anyone who considered that deal to be a wash. Lost opportunity with Phillips, sure. Wash given Lee/Sizemore for 800ish innings from Bart? Good God no.
Beanpot
Remember back when I said that you're entitled to your opinion? Said it with a smiley face and everything? That still stands.
However, how in the hell do you break down the Colon deal to "Colon/Sizemore...pretty much a wash" in the same exact thread that you're stomping on your Wahoo lid and giving up on the team due to the trading of Cliff Lee!?!?
There are a ton of metrics out there that place values on trades and that "pretty much a wash" trade is often referred to as being historically good. Even if you don't buy into that kinda stuff, I've yet to come across anyone who considered that deal to be a wash. Lost opportunity with Phillips, sure. Wash given Lee/Sizemore for 800ish innings from Bart? Good God no.
Beanpot
the trade of Big Fat Bartolo Colon has turned out to be one of the biggest heists in MLB history. It didn't work out PERFECTLY for the Indians, having burned Phillips' options early and ultimately losing him. But Bartolo Colon shouldn't have even been in the League for the last 4 or 5 years. He had a good half season after the Indians dealt him, and his ONE 21-8 season with LAA a couple of years later.
And if I remember correctly, there were a whole lot of PO'd Indians fans then too. No one even knew Lee or Sizemore. Phillips was supposed to be the centerpiece of the deal, and the other two were just supporting players. I am in no way saying this Lee/Francisco trade will turn out the same, but getting basically half of one organizations top 10 prospects for a guy you don't ever need (Francisco) and a guy you can't use and can't keep... I won't complain.
I would think that just remembering the Big Fat Bartolo deal, you'd be a little more willing to see what becomes of at least Carrasco and Knapp, before throwing your Indians hat in the fireplace.
To me, it's genuinely exciting to see these deals get done. Last June I had come to terms with the fact that the Indians would not see the playoffs again before these guys had to be dealt. I'm ready to see what another surge of young talent can add up to at the major league level.
LaPorta, Brantley, Weglarz, Santana, Rondon, Huff, Valbuena, Cabrera, Hodges...
What I want to know, is how MeLoan got traded for some garbage old bullpen guy that TB had picked up free of charge after the Nats dumped him.
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I'll say Omar was never really Omar in San Francisco, I doubt he'd do anything of impact if he stayed in Cleveland, and Manny signed a historically huge contract before Shapiro even got there. So, to me at least, the only real impact player in that is Thome. But do you really think Thome, even at his peak, would've made that much of a difference after he left?
There's only so much one player can do, and very few, if any, are worth what they end up getting paid. Did the Phillies ever make the playoffs with Thome? What did Robbie do after he left Cleveland? CC's only on pace to get 16 wins on a first place team this year. Is that worth 20 something million?
Do you think if we kept Sabathia we would've won anything last, this, or next year?
Terrible contracts concern me far more than trading players for prospects before they hit free agency. How's Barry Zito's contract looking these days? What about the Mets with their blockbuster deal for Santana? Look at the Yankees for the past 7 or 8 years. Too many bad contracts will completely cripple a team...especially when you're adding bad contracts to a bad team.
If we were in contention, I could understand overpaying to keep the core intact, like we did in the 90s. But it goes back to the two main problems...we're not contending and we can't afford to match what the big markets are offering. It's just the facts.
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1) Colon/Sizemore...pretty much a wash.
Remember back when I said that you're entitled to your opinion? Said it with a smiley face and everything? That still stands.
However, how in the hell do you break down the Colon deal to "Colon/Sizemore...pretty much a wash" in the same exact thread that you're stomping on your Wahoo lid and giving up on the team due to the trading of Cliff Lee!?!?
There are a ton of metrics out there that place values on trades and that "pretty much a wash" trade is often referred to as being historically good. Even if you don't buy into that kinda stuff, I've yet to come across anyone who considered that deal to be a wash. Lost opportunity with Phillips, sure. Wash given Lee/Sizemore for 800ish innings from Bart? Good God no.
Beanpot
Remember back when I said that you're entitled to your opinion? Said it with a smiley face and everything? That still stands.
However, how in the hell do you break down the Colon deal to "Colon/Sizemore...pretty much a wash" in the same exact thread that you're stomping on your Wahoo lid and giving up on the team due to the trading of Cliff Lee!?!?
There are a ton of metrics out there that place values on trades and that "pretty much a wash" trade is often referred to as being historically good. Even if you don't buy into that kinda stuff, I've yet to come across anyone who considered that deal to be a wash. Lost opportunity with Phillips, sure. Wash given Lee/Sizemore for 800ish innings from Bart? Good God no.
Beanpot
OK, "a wash" was a poor choice of words as Grady is a fine ballplayer (probably a superstar IF they would surround him with more hitters as they did in the 90's). The fact is that they traded Colon (an established, productive pitcher) for an "unknown". You & I both know that many of these "phenoms" don't pan out. Again, I see an "MO" in this. We are letting established producers go for question marks, or in the case of free agency, for nothing, & yes, it has become a pattern. The Lee/Francisco trade for four LARGE question marks just put the lid on it for me. For the quality we gave up, we should have gotten MUCH more....maybe fewer players, but at least ONE bonafide major leaguer.
Mike
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Remember back when I said that you're entitled to your opinion? Said it with a smiley face and everything? That still stands.
However, how in the hell do you break down the Colon deal to "Colon/Sizemore...pretty much a wash" in the same exact thread that you're stomping on your Wahoo lid and giving up on the team due to the trading of Cliff Lee!?!?
There are a ton of metrics out there that place values on trades and that "pretty much a wash" trade is often referred to as being historically good. Even if you don't buy into that kinda stuff, I've yet to come across anyone who considered that deal to be a wash. Lost opportunity with Phillips, sure. Wash given Lee/Sizemore for 800ish innings from Bart? Good God no.
Beanpot
the trade of Big Fat Bartolo Colon has turned out to be one of the biggest heists in MLB history. It didn't work out PERFECTLY for the Indians, having burned Phillips' options early and ultimately losing him. But Bartolo Colon shouldn't have even been in the League for the last 4 or 5 years. He had a good half season after the Indians dealt him, and his ONE 21-8 season with LAA a couple of years later.
And if I remember correctly, there were a whole lot of PO'd Indians fans then too. No one even knew Lee or Sizemore. Phillips was supposed to be the centerpiece of the deal, and the other two were just supporting players. I am in no way saying this Lee/Francisco trade will turn out the same, but getting basically half of one organizations top 10 prospects for a guy you don't ever need (Francisco) and a guy you can't use and can't keep... I won't complain.
I would think that just remembering the Big Fat Bartolo deal, you'd be a little more willing to see what becomes of at least Carrasco and Knapp, before throwing your Indians hat in the fireplace.
To me, it's genuinely exciting to see these deals get done. Last June I had come to terms with the fact that the Indians would not see the playoffs again before these guys had to be dealt. I'm ready to see what another surge of young talent can add up to at the major league level.
LaPorta, Brantley, Weglarz, Santana, Rondon, Huff, Valbuena, Cabrera, Hodges...
What I want to know, is how MeLoan got traded for some garbage old bullpen guy that TB had picked up free of charge after the Nats dumped him.
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Remember back when I said that you're entitled to your opinion? Said it with a smiley face and everything? That still stands.
However, how in the hell do you break down the Colon deal to "Colon/Sizemore...pretty much a wash" in the same exact thread that you're stomping on your Wahoo lid and giving up on the team due to the trading of Cliff Lee!?!?
There are a ton of metrics out there that place values on trades and that "pretty much a wash" trade is often referred to as being historically good. Even if you don't buy into that kinda stuff, I've yet to come across anyone who considered that deal to be a wash. Lost opportunity with Phillips, sure. Wash given Lee/Sizemore for 800ish innings from Bart? Good God no.
Beanpot
the trade of Big Fat Bartolo Colon has turned out to be one of the biggest heists in MLB history. It didn't work out PERFECTLY for the Indians, having burned Phillips' options early and ultimately losing him. But Bartolo Colon shouldn't have even been in the League for the last 4 or 5 years. He had a good half season after the Indians dealt him, and his ONE 21-8 season with LAA a couple of years later.
And if I remember correctly, there were a whole lot of PO'd Indians fans then too. No one even knew Lee or Sizemore. Phillips was supposed to be the centerpiece of the deal, and the other two were just supporting players. I am in no way saying this Lee/Francisco trade will turn out the same, but getting basically half of one organizations top 10 prospects for a guy you don't ever need (Francisco) and a guy you can't use and can't keep... I won't complain.
I would think that just remembering the Big Fat Bartolo deal, you'd be a little more willing to see what becomes of at least Carrasco and Knapp, before throwing your Indians hat in the fireplace.
To me, it's genuinely exciting to see these deals get done. Last June I had come to terms with the fact that the Indians would not see the playoffs again before these guys had to be dealt. I'm ready to see what another surge of young talent can add up to at the major league level.
LaPorta, Brantley, Weglarz, Santana, Rondon, Huff, Valbuena, Cabrera, Hodges...
What I want to know, is how MeLoan got traded for some garbage old bullpen guy that TB had picked up free of charge after the Nats dumped him.
And if I remember correctly, there were a whole lot of PO'd Indians fans then too. No one even knew Lee or Sizemore. Phillips was supposed to be the centerpiece of the deal, and the other two were just supporting players.
Tons. Lots even. We were on another forum at the time and people were *pissed* - I, of course, was the voice of reason. Telling people that Phillips was a terrific get and that maybekinda the other two would turn out ok.
Man, I loved me some Brandon Phillips back in the day.
Beanpot
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Just for kicks I figured I'd take a look at the potential roster in the next couple years...thinking of the batting order and looking at the potential.
LF - Brantley...(.290 avg, 20+ SBs, 80 R)
CF - Sizemore...(25-30 HR, 25-30 SBs, 80-90 RBI, 100 R)
1B - LaPorta...(.300 avg, 30-35 HR, 100+ RBI)
DH - Weglarz...(.270 avg, 35-40 HR, 100+ RBI)
C - Santana...(.280 avg, 25-30 HR, 80-90 RBI)
RF - Choo...(.300 avg, 20-25 HR, 20 SBs, 80-90 RBI)
3B - Chisenhall...(.280 avg, 20-25 HR, 70-80 RBI)
SS - Cabrera...(.290 avg)
2B - Valbuena...(.280 avg, 15 SBs)
With Martinez, Peralta, Donald, and Marson as very nice trade chips.
Granted that's best case scenario, but those are realistic expectations given the caliber of players we have coming up, and a hell of a lot better than the best scenario with the roster we broke camp with. Blue chip sluggers in the middle of the order, and players like Brantley and Valbuena actually bringing something dynamic to the lineup.
Then you have Rondon with ace caliber stuff, Carrasco as a potential #2, Huff growing into a dependable starter, Laffey a nice piece as a 5th guy to get the ground ball outs. We'll take whatever we can get from Fausto, they're taking their time with him in Columbus for a reason, they want him to come back as a reliable starter. If De La Cruz can recover from his injury, he's another guy with top 3 starter stuff.
With a possible 6th-9th inning combo of Sipp-Rafael Perez-Lewis-Chris Perez. All young, all getting better.
It just seems like the worst possible time to stop being a fan. This is what should excite people...not watching Cliff Lee "carry" a 4th place team.
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Here's Law's take on the deal:
Phillies get Lee, give up few high-end assets
For the Phillies, this looks like a steal. In Cliff Lee, they acquire one of the best pitchers in the American League over the past 18 months while retaining their top two prospects and trading four guys who all have serious question marks.
Lee has been the best left-hander in the AL and top-three in the league since the start of the 2008 season, although before that he went off the rails and had to be optioned to the minors in July of 2007. Lee's entire game turned around in 2008, as he picked up some velocity, improved his command and began to work more effectively in the lower half of the zone; he's now a four-pitch guy with command and control who works deep into games. (He has shown a large platoon split this year, with right-handed batters gaining more than 250 points of OPS, but it's out of line with his previous seasons and appears to be a fluke.) His contract includes a $9 million option for 2010 that the Phillies will certainly pick up; even if they decided they couldn't afford to keep him, he's extremely tradeable and they'd probably get value close to what they just gave up to acquire him.
Ben Francisco is a good right-handed bat off the bench who can fill in all over the outfield, but isn't going to produce enough to play every day in an outfield corner. He's a good depth add for the Phillies' bench, which is weak overall and has no viable right-handed bats to sub for a left-handed hitter late in a game.
If there's a problem with the Philly side, it's that they don't need Lee. They came into Wednesday eight games up in the loss column in the National League East standings, with Baseball Prospectus calling them an 83 percent chance to win the division. Lee makes them a better playoff team, but the playoffs are such a crapshoot that any upgrade only makes a team slightly more likely to win any particular series. It's hard to argue with the value proposition, however -- if you can get an underpaid, top-three pitcher in the tougher league without giving up any of your top three prospects, you kind of have to make the trade.
Cleveland's return is going to end up leaning very heavily on 19-year-old right-hander Jason Knapp, who is currently on the shelf with shoulder fatigue. Knapp is a low-three quarters slinger with a shoulder-heavy arm action, landing on a stiff front leg and struggling to close his front shoulder. He's been sitting in the mid-90s this spring, but his curveball and changeup remain below average; it's possible he won't ever have an average curve from that arm slot. The arm strength and the results for a 19-year-old in full-season A-ball are both very impressive, so even with the other concerns he has potential, but he's a high-risk/high-reward guy. Cleveland rarely has guys like this in their system because they tend to draft conservatively, and their best homegrown prospect right now, 20-year-old shortstop Lonnie Chisenhall, was a pick where they broke out of their typical draft philosophy.
The remaining players headed to Cleveland are inventory. Coming into 2009, Jason Donald, 24, projected as either an average defensive shortstop or above-average second baseman; his bat plays at either position but probably won't at third base, and he performed terribly in Triple-A this year before going down with a torn meniscus in his left knee in June, an injury from which he just returned to Triple-A. If the injured left knee was the true cause of his struggles, then it's a good buy-low move for Cleveland. Right-hander Carlos Carrasco is just 22 and has shown an above-average fastball, but he lacks a plus or even above-average secondary pitch, his command is poor and his on-field makeup has been a major question for two years; he doesn't respond well to adversity between the lines and, according to multiple sources, was so upset about seeing his name in trade talks last year that he pulled himself from a start during warm-ups and may have deliberately pitched poorly to try to hurt his trade value. Catcher Lou Marson, 23, makes a lot of contact and controls the strike zone but his swing path takes the bat down to the ball, resulting in a ton of ground balls and therefore little to no power. With Carlos Santana already the catcher of the future in Cleveland, Marson looks like either a future backup or an asset for the Indians to move somewhere else.
At this point it's hard to see any logic for Cleveland to retain Victor Martinez; their chances to contend in 2010 are largely gone because of the dearth of major league-ready starting pitching in the organization, and they're not in a payroll bracket where they're going to go out and buy three-fifths of a playoff rotation. Keeping Martinez, a productive but injury-prone catcher, with Santana and Marson sitting in Triple-A, doesn't make much sense given the front office's evident decision to rebuild.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index...;name=law_keith
Beanpot
Here's Law's take on the deal:
Phillies get Lee, give up few high-end assets
For the Phillies, this looks like a steal. In Cliff Lee, they acquire one of the best pitchers in the American League over the past 18 months while retaining their top two prospects and trading four guys who all have serious question marks.
Lee has been the best left-hander in the AL and top-three in the league since the start of the 2008 season, although before that he went off the rails and had to be optioned to the minors in July of 2007. Lee's entire game turned around in 2008, as he picked up some velocity, improved his command and began to work more effectively in the lower half of the zone; he's now a four-pitch guy with command and control who works deep into games. (He has shown a large platoon split this year, with right-handed batters gaining more than 250 points of OPS, but it's out of line with his previous seasons and appears to be a fluke.) His contract includes a $9 million option for 2010 that the Phillies will certainly pick up; even if they decided they couldn't afford to keep him, he's extremely tradeable and they'd probably get value close to what they just gave up to acquire him.
Ben Francisco is a good right-handed bat off the bench who can fill in all over the outfield, but isn't going to produce enough to play every day in an outfield corner. He's a good depth add for the Phillies' bench, which is weak overall and has no viable right-handed bats to sub for a left-handed hitter late in a game.
If there's a problem with the Philly side, it's that they don't need Lee. They came into Wednesday eight games up in the loss column in the National League East standings, with Baseball Prospectus calling them an 83 percent chance to win the division. Lee makes them a better playoff team, but the playoffs are such a crapshoot that any upgrade only makes a team slightly more likely to win any particular series. It's hard to argue with the value proposition, however -- if you can get an underpaid, top-three pitcher in the tougher league without giving up any of your top three prospects, you kind of have to make the trade.
Cleveland's return is going to end up leaning very heavily on 19-year-old right-hander Jason Knapp, who is currently on the shelf with shoulder fatigue. Knapp is a low-three quarters slinger with a shoulder-heavy arm action, landing on a stiff front leg and struggling to close his front shoulder. He's been sitting in the mid-90s this spring, but his curveball and changeup remain below average; it's possible he won't ever have an average curve from that arm slot. The arm strength and the results for a 19-year-old in full-season A-ball are both very impressive, so even with the other concerns he has potential, but he's a high-risk/high-reward guy. Cleveland rarely has guys like this in their system because they tend to draft conservatively, and their best homegrown prospect right now, 20-year-old shortstop Lonnie Chisenhall, was a pick where they broke out of their typical draft philosophy.
The remaining players headed to Cleveland are inventory. Coming into 2009, Jason Donald, 24, projected as either an average defensive shortstop or above-average second baseman; his bat plays at either position but probably won't at third base, and he performed terribly in Triple-A this year before going down with a torn meniscus in his left knee in June, an injury from which he just returned to Triple-A. If the injured left knee was the true cause of his struggles, then it's a good buy-low move for Cleveland. Right-hander Carlos Carrasco is just 22 and has shown an above-average fastball, but he lacks a plus or even above-average secondary pitch, his command is poor and his on-field makeup has been a major question for two years; he doesn't respond well to adversity between the lines and, according to multiple sources, was so upset about seeing his name in trade talks last year that he pulled himself from a start during warm-ups and may have deliberately pitched poorly to try to hurt his trade value. Catcher Lou Marson, 23, makes a lot of contact and controls the strike zone but his swing path takes the bat down to the ball, resulting in a ton of ground balls and therefore little to no power. With Carlos Santana already the catcher of the future in Cleveland, Marson looks like either a future backup or an asset for the Indians to move somewhere else.
At this point it's hard to see any logic for Cleveland to retain Victor Martinez; their chances to contend in 2010 are largely gone because of the dearth of major league-ready starting pitching in the organization, and they're not in a payroll bracket where they're going to go out and buy three-fifths of a playoff rotation. Keeping Martinez, a productive but injury-prone catcher, with Santana and Marson sitting in Triple-A, doesn't make much sense given the front office's evident decision to rebuild.
http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index...;name=law_keith
Beanpot
This article is not really a raving endorsement of the Indians trade. It sounds like we got one high risk/reward guy and roster filler for the rest. Ugh.
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