Official: Lee to Phillies
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What defines rebuilding then?
2007, a mere two years ago, Shapiro was getting players to win now (well, win then). Veterans to fill out the roster, and he makes the huge trade to get Kenny.
2008 we were satisfied coming off the ALCS, rode it out with what we had, were out of the race and traded two players that were going to be lost as free agents.
2009, encouraged by the '08 2nd half, and a few guys coming off injuries, Shapiro decides we're contenders. We had gaping holes at 2B/3B, depth in the rotation and the bullpen, and closer. So he goes out and gets DeRosa for the infield, Pavano to fill a spot in the rotation, Wood to be our closer, picks up Smith for the bullpen and Valbuena as the future 2B.
You can say those were the wrong moves to make....but that's not "rebuilding". So break it into the 6 parts of the last three years
2007 pre-season - bring in vets to fill out the roster.
2007 deadline - Kenny Lofton
2008 pre-season - stand pat
2008 deadline - sellers
2009 pre-season - spends money, fills some gaping holes
2009 deadline - sellers
You can't stand pat for years at a time in baseball. When Shapiro came in, it was definitely a complete overhaul. The last three years were dedicated to winning though, until we got to the deadline out of the race.
Worth noting that the previous overhaul brought us Lee, Sizemore, Hafner, Choo, Cabrera, Gutierrez, and just about everyone else that made us so-called contenders the last three years. Now we're in the same process, but have more than a handful of top-notch prospects that will be ready by NEXT YEAR.
I don't know, it's not something where either side can change the other's mind...it just doesn't make sense to me to keep one player who doesn't have any impact in the short term besides being fun to watch...and absolutely zero impact long term when he's playing for a big market.
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CIMO, even you admit that the team played way above their heads to get to the ALCS. Now he admits he doesnt expect to win in '10 even.
So they were rebuilding when they traded for Lee and now they are rebuilding by trading Lee with nothing to show for it but a luck ALCS appearance.
CIMO, even you admit that the team played way above their heads to get to the ALCS. Now he admits he doesnt expect to win in '10 even.
So they were rebuilding when they traded for Lee and now they are rebuilding by trading Lee with nothing to show for it but a luck ALCS appearance.
Nicely put Eater. I wouldn't say luck, they were a good team playing well together. The question is what happened?
What the hell do the players have to play for, now?
OK so for the last 10-12 years the fans stuck by the team owned by the Dolan's, even though they were producing a bad product. Some glimmer of hope that we can put a team out there to compete. The Dolan's basically said F'CK YOU to the fans. So in the coming years we are going to hear the ownership bitch about attendance and money. You know they can go F'CK themselves.
This was not a decision that Shapiro made, this was 100% the Dolan's. And 100% about money, NOT PROSPECTS. F'CK Larry Dolan. Sell the team and get the F'CK out of Cleveland.
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This was the same team who almost made it to the World Series.
Only CC is in New York, Fausto is in Columbus, Blake is in LA, Kenny is retired, and Westbrook and Hafner are coming off major surgery.
Only CC is in New York, Fausto is in Columbus, Blake is in LA, Kenny is retired, and Westbrook and Hafner are coming off major surgery.
All the more reason you don't trade a CY Young lefty with a year left on his contract.
Agreed about '07, but without CC, Blake, Kenny, Westbrook and Hafner (Fausto pitching bad) we had the best record after all star break last year, it was the same team. I'm not buying it.
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I'm just not following it. We played well after the all-star break and look like contenders, so Shapiro goes out and fills the holes in the offseason. How is that considered rebuilding?
Now we're at the deadline 18 games under .500 and everyone wants to stand pat. I can't understand that. Would you rather be Toronto and waste another year and a half of your great pitcher and stink for 5 more years?
Moving forward we have Sizemore, Choo and probably Hafner as our proven guys, with Santana, LaPorta, Weglarz, Brantley, Rondon, and Carrasco as legit difference makers in 2011.
2009 was already in the toilet.
2011 we'll be reaping the rewards.
It's just a matter of one wasted year in 2010...but if some of things we expected to happen THIS YEAR...i.e. Carmona coming back to form, Wood being an effective closer, R Perez and Lewis as reliable setup men, Westbrook filling a spot in the rotation...to go along with the big league-ready prospects we have in LaPorta, C Perez, Huff, S Lewis, etc continuing to improve....we seriously aren't that much worse off than we'd be with Lee (or Betancourt, DeRosa, or Garko).
Like I said... at this point, neither of us are telling the other anything we don't know...I just truly don't see trading Lee as a reason to give up on the team if you're a true fan.
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I'm just not following it. We played well after the all-star break and look like contenders, so Shapiro goes out and fills the holes in the offseason. How is that considered rebuilding?
Now we're at the deadline 18 games under .500 and everyone wants to stand pat. I can't understand that. Would you rather be Toronto and waste another year and a half of your great pitcher and stink for 5 more years?
Moving forward we have Sizemore, Choo and probably Hafner as our proven guys, with Santana, LaPorta, Weglarz, Brantley, Rondon, and Carrasco as legit difference makers in 2011.
2009 was already in the toilet.
2011 we'll be reaping the rewards.
It's just a matter of one wasted year in 2010...but if some of things we expected to happen THIS YEAR...i.e. Carmona coming back to form, Wood being an effective closer, R Perez and Lewis as reliable setup men, Westbrook filling a spot in the rotation...to go along with the big league-ready prospects we have in LaPorta, C Perez, Huff, S Lewis, etc continuing to improve....we seriously aren't that much worse off than we'd be with Lee (or Betancourt, DeRosa, or Garko).
Like I said... at this point, neither of us are telling the other anything we don't know...I just truly don't see trading Lee as a reason to give up on the team if you're a true fan.
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It seems more like you don't follow baseball enough.
Are you trying to say our prospects never pan out?
CC came up through our system and won over 100 games
Cliff Lee came up through our system and won a Cy Young
Grady Sizemore came up through our system and became a 30/30, gold glover
Fausto came up through our system, won 19 games and carried us through the ALDS
Victor came up through our system and turned into the best catcher in the game
Betancourt came up through our system and had some great years for us in relief
Choo, Hafner and Westbrook all came here as complete unknowns and turned into impact players
Brandon Phillips never got his shot in Cleveland but has turned into a hell of player
Now we have the best pool of prospects since the early 90s (who turned into Manny, Thome, et al) and everyone just assumes they'll fizzle out, yet I'm the naive one.
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we've been hearing about reaping rewards from prospects acquired in trades for almost a decade. only one year did we come remotely close to reaping anything. Yes we got some good players, but what difference does it make when we lose 90 games and trade them away? obviously they are doing something wrong.
we've also been hearing that the indians have the best pool of prospects since god knows when for almost a decade. I remember Dolan/ Shap talking about winning the world Series in two years after breaking up the team we had in the nineties. We see how that worked out.
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It seems more like you don't follow baseball enough.
Are you trying to say our prospects never pan out?
CC came up through our system and won over 100 games
Cliff Lee came up through our system and won a Cy Young
Grady Sizemore came up through our system and became a 30/30, gold glover
Fausto came up through our system, won 19 games and carried us through the ALDS
Victor came up through our system and turned into the best catcher in the game
Betancourt came up through our system and had some great years for us in relief
Choo, Hafner and Westbrook all came here as complete unknowns and turned into impact players
Brandon Phillips never got his shot in Cleveland but has turned into a hell of player
Now we have the best pool of prospects since the early 90s (who turned into Manny, Thome, et al) and everyone just assumes they'll fizzle out, yet I'm the naive one.
It seems more like you don't follow baseball enough.
Are you trying to say our prospects never pan out?
CC came up through our system and won over 100 games
Cliff Lee came up through our system and won a Cy Young
Grady Sizemore came up through our system and became a 30/30, gold glover
Fausto came up through our system, won 19 games and carried us through the ALDS
Victor came up through our system and turned into the best catcher in the game
Betancourt came up through our system and had some great years for us in relief
Choo, Hafner and Westbrook all came here as complete unknowns and turned into impact players
Brandon Phillips never got his shot in Cleveland but has turned into a hell of player
Now we have the best pool of prospects since the early 90s (who turned into Manny, Thome, et al) and everyone just assumes they'll fizzle out, yet I'm the naive one.
Sweet and ZERO trips to the World Series. Next time you drive to downtown Cleveland, pay $20 for parking, $60 to get in the game and $10 for a beer and watch them get shelled, let me know. Until then, you need to stick in Texas my friend, Ummm K.
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Now it's clear the season wasn't going anywhere, so Shapiro decided to cut bait and get what he could to make sure we're not in the same position for 5 more years.
I call BS on this. This was the same team who almost made it to the World Series. Why aren't they preforming? I think they need to address that issue before getting rid of a CY Young pitcher signed through 2010. I could see some sense in the trade if this was 2010 and Lee was leaving. What does this tell me, the team, and the city, there is no chance of you winning next year or for the next 3 years for that matter.
We are now in Pirate territory in every sense of the word. Payroll, talent, pride. All gone.
I call BS on this. This was the same team who almost made it to the World Series. Why aren't they preforming? I think they need to address that issue before getting rid of a CY Young pitcher signed through 2010. I could see some sense in the trade if this was 2010 and Lee was leaving. What does this tell me, the team, and the city, there is no chance of you winning next year or for the next 3 years for that matter.
We are now in Pirate territory in every sense of the word. Payroll, talent, pride. All gone.
I agree. We are becoming like the Pirates in a sense we bring up these kids and trade them away when they are in their prime. We are becoming the top two contending Farm Clubs for the rest of the league.
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but according to Yahoo today, The Tribe's looking to get rid of Victor and the Red Sox, Rays, and Giants seem to all three want him? What should we settle on getting for him? I'm thinking Shapiro will do it for essentially what equates to a Single A pitcher that MAY do something 3 years from now, but is on the injury report now, and a bucket of sunflower seeds! That seems to be the going rate for a repeat All-Star catcher right?
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but according to Yahoo today, The Tribe's looking to get rid of Victor and the Red Sox, Rays, and Giants seem to all three want him? What should we settle on getting for him? I'm thinking Shapiro will do it for essentially what equates to a Single A pitcher that MAY do something 3 years from now, but is on the injury report now, and a bucket of sunflower seeds! That seems to be the going rate for a repeat All-Star catcher right?
Not to add fuel to the fire, but according to Yahoo today, The Tribe's looking to get rid of Victor and the Red Sox, Rays, and Giants seem to all three want him? What should we settle on getting for him? I'm thinking Shapiro will do it for essentially what equates to a Single A pitcher that MAY do something 3 years from now, but is on the injury report now, and a bucket of sunflower seeds! That seems to be the going rate for a repeat All-Star catcher right?
They are trying to get Clay Buchhol for him. And if his girlfriend comes with the deal, so be it.
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but according to Yahoo today, The Tribe's looking to get rid of Victor and the Red Sox, Rays, and Giants seem to all three want him? What should we settle on getting for him? I'm thinking Shapiro will do it for essentially what equates to a Single A pitcher that MAY do something 3 years from now, but is on the injury report now, and a bucket of sunflower seeds! That seems to be the going rate for a repeat All-Star catcher right?
Not to add fuel to the fire, but according to Yahoo today, The Tribe's looking to get rid of Victor and the Red Sox, Rays, and Giants seem to all three want him? What should we settle on getting for him? I'm thinking Shapiro will do it for essentially what equates to a Single A pitcher that MAY do something 3 years from now, but is on the injury report now, and a bucket of sunflower seeds! That seems to be the going rate for a repeat All-Star catcher right?
Shaprio would never make such a trade. Throw in a third round pick in next year's draft and he'll pull the trigger.
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Not to add fuel to the fire, but according to Yahoo today, The Tribe's looking to get rid of Victor and the Red Sox, Rays, and Giants seem to all three want him? What should we settle on getting for him? I'm thinking Shapiro will do it for essentially what equates to a Single A pitcher that MAY do something 3 years from now, but is on the injury report now, and a bucket of sunflower seeds! That seems to be the going rate for a repeat All-Star catcher right?
Shaprio would never make such a trade. Throw in a third round pick in next year's draft and he'll pull the trigger.
Shaprio would never make such a trade. Throw in a third round pick in next year's draft and he'll pull the trigger.
Clay Buchhol or bust.
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It seems more like you don't follow baseball enough.
Are you trying to say our prospects never pan out?
CC came up through our system and won over 100 games
Cliff Lee came up through our system and won a Cy Young
Grady Sizemore came up through our system and became a 30/30, gold glover
Fausto came up through our system, won 19 games and carried us through the ALDS
Victor came up through our system and turned into the best catcher in the game
Betancourt came up through our system and had some great years for us in relief
Choo, Hafner and Westbrook all came here as complete unknowns and turned into impact players
Brandon Phillips never got his shot in Cleveland but has turned into a hell of player
Now we have the best pool of prospects since the early 90s (who turned into Manny, Thome, et al) and everyone just assumes they'll fizzle out, yet I'm the naive one.
Sweet and ZERO trips to the World Series. Next time you drive to downtown Cleveland, pay $20 for parking, $60 to get in the game and $10 for a beer and watch them get shelled, let me know. Until then, you need to stick in Texas my friend, Ummm K.
Sweet and ZERO trips to the World Series. Next time you drive to downtown Cleveland, pay $20 for parking, $60 to get in the game and $10 for a beer and watch them get shelled, let me know. Until then, you need to stick in Texas my friend, Ummm K.
The Browns haven't been to a Super Bowl in their entire history and the fans are happy to sell out every game.
The Cavs got swept in their only trip to the finals and they're selling out every game.
But since the Indians aren't as good as they were in the 90s, they should be boycotted. Gotcha.
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Sweet and ZERO trips to the World Series. Next time you drive to downtown Cleveland, pay $20 for parking, $60 to get in the game and $10 for a beer and watch them get shelled, let me know. Until then, you need to stick in Texas my friend, Ummm K.
The Browns haven't been to a Super Bowl in their entire history and the fans are happy to sell out every game.
The Cavs got swept in their only trip to the finals and they're selling out every game.
But since the Indians aren't as good as they were in the 90s, they should be boycotted. Gotcha.
The Browns haven't been to a Super Bowl in their entire history and the fans are happy to sell out every game.
The Cavs got swept in their only trip to the finals and they're selling out every game.
But since the Indians aren't as good as they were in the 90s, they should be boycotted. Gotcha.
I can only speak for myself, not send generalizations of a whole city from down yonder.
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Sweet and ZERO trips to the World Series. Next time you drive to downtown Cleveland, pay $20 for parking, $60 to get in the game and $10 for a beer and watch them get shelled, let me know. Until then, you need to stick in Texas my friend, Ummm K.
The Browns haven't been to a Super Bowl in their entire history and the fans are happy to sell out every game.
The Cavs got swept in their only trip to the finals and they're selling out every game.
But since the Indians aren't as good as they were in the 90s, they should be boycotted. Gotcha.
The Browns haven't been to a Super Bowl in their entire history and the fans are happy to sell out every game.
The Cavs got swept in their only trip to the finals and they're selling out every game.
But since the Indians aren't as good as they were in the 90s, they should be boycotted. Gotcha.
It has nothing to do with the Indians of the 90's. Different owners. Neither the Cavs or the Browns blew up a good team, they added talent, not traded it away. Those owners made honest decisions about what are the best chances of winning now. Dolan is doing just the opposite. You have to admit that?
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Sweet and ZERO trips to the World Series. Next time you drive to downtown Cleveland, pay $20 for parking, $60 to get in the game and $10 for a beer and watch them get shelled, let me know. Until then, you need to stick in Texas my friend, Ummm K.
The Browns haven't been to a Super Bowl in their entire history and the fans are happy to sell out every game.
The Cavs got swept in their only trip to the finals and they're selling out every game.
But since the Indians aren't as good as they were in the 90s, they should be boycotted. Gotcha.
The Browns haven't been to a Super Bowl in their entire history and the fans are happy to sell out every game.
The Cavs got swept in their only trip to the finals and they're selling out every game.
But since the Indians aren't as good as they were in the 90s, they should be boycotted. Gotcha.
Lerner and Gilbert are not the owners that have repeatedly stated that in order for them to spend money to bring a good team to Cleveland, they need to see the teams sell out every game. Dolan has stated that he will spend the money but not until the fans do. Huge difference. Especially when you look at the fact that there was a winning team in place when Dolan bought the tribe and the attendance was still up. He took over in 2000. In 1999, the Indians were 97-65 with an attendance of 3,468,436. In 2000, they were 90-72 with an attendance of 3,456,278. Even in 2001, they were 91-71 with the attendance at 3,175,523. So, we were funding the team just fine, even under Dolan. Now we all understand that most teams, not named the Yankees and Red Sox, have to rebuild at some time. Since 2002, the club has had 2 seasons over .500 and one right at .500 and 4 losing seasons...oh wait...5 losing seasons counting '09. '02, '03, '06, and now '09 were absolutely abysmal. Dolan hasn't held up his end. If he had, then we would not going through a complete rebuild again.
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The Browns haven't been to a Super Bowl in their entire history and the fans are happy to sell out every game.
The Cavs got swept in their only trip to the finals and they're selling out every game.
But since the Indians aren't as good as they were in the 90s, they should be boycotted. Gotcha.
Lerner and Gilbert are not the owners that have repeatedly stated that in order for them to spend money to bring a good team to Cleveland, they need to see the teams sell out every game. Dolan has stated that he will spend the money but not until the fans do. Huge difference. Especially when you look at the fact that there was a winning team in place when Dolan bought the tribe and the attendance was still up. He took over in 2000. In 1999, the Indians were 97-65 with an attendance of 3,468,436. In 2000, they were 90-72 with an attendance of 3,456,278. Even in 2001, they were 91-71 with the attendance at 3,175,523. So, we were funding the team just fine, even under Dolan. Now we all understand that most teams, not named the Yankees and Red Sox, have to rebuild at some time. Since 2002, the club has had 2 seasons over .500 and one right at .500 and 4 losing seasons...oh wait...5 losing seasons counting '09. '02, '03, '06, and now '09 were absolutely abysmal. Dolan hasn't held up his end. If he had, then we would not going through a complete rebuild again.
Lerner and Gilbert are not the owners that have repeatedly stated that in order for them to spend money to bring a good team to Cleveland, they need to see the teams sell out every game. Dolan has stated that he will spend the money but not until the fans do. Huge difference. Especially when you look at the fact that there was a winning team in place when Dolan bought the tribe and the attendance was still up. He took over in 2000. In 1999, the Indians were 97-65 with an attendance of 3,468,436. In 2000, they were 90-72 with an attendance of 3,456,278. Even in 2001, they were 91-71 with the attendance at 3,175,523. So, we were funding the team just fine, even under Dolan. Now we all understand that most teams, not named the Yankees and Red Sox, have to rebuild at some time. Since 2002, the club has had 2 seasons over .500 and one right at .500 and 4 losing seasons...oh wait...5 losing seasons counting '09. '02, '03, '06, and now '09 were absolutely abysmal. Dolan hasn't held up his end. If he had, then we would not going through a complete rebuild again.
LCD, perfectly said bro. We made him a bunch of money, and now he's not making it and didn't put some of that aside for the future, the fans are paying the price. It stinks of business. With Lerner and Gilbert it feels like a team or even a family, not a business.
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It's starting to seem like people would rather have an enormous payroll than a winning season.
We paid Hafner. We paid Wood. We paid Westbrook. We locked up Carmona and Sizemore. We've had Victor for over a decade.
The market for starting pitching is absolutely insane now. We weren't going anywhere last year with CC, and we had no chance to sign him. The Brewers decided to ride him to the end, and how did that turn out? A first round exit and nothing in return.
Cleveland is far, far from the only team who can't afford to pay Cy Young winners market value. The Marlins couldn't keep Beckett. The Twins couldn't keep Santana. The A's couldn't keep anyone, but let's just say Dan Haren. The Blue Jays won't be able to keep Halladay.
When you look at it realistically, we weren't going anywhere with Cliff. There aren't enough moves we could've made to contend next year, and we don't have the money to re-sign him. Before you blame Dolan, look around the league and blame baseball for the lack of a salary cap.
We didn't get fair value for Cliff, but no team is going to give up young, major league ready aces for a rental. Getting two solid position players at premium positions, a front of the rotation starter near the bigs, and one potential horse...well, I'll take it.
So I was right?
It's starting to seem like people would rather have an enormous payroll than a winning season.
I'll agree that Gilbert puts his money where his mouth is, but the Cavs aren't some well oiled machine. They won the powerball lottery when they got LeBron, stole Mo Williams from Milwaukee (who just gave up Jefferson and Villanueva for nothing), their best draft acquistion since '03 was Anderson Varejao, they haven't gotten a single impact free agent, and blew it at the trade deadline last year, have won nothing, yet everyone is happy to shower them with praises because they're willing to pay Larry Hughes, Wally Szczerbiak and Ben Wallace 15 million a year.
I have no idea what the Browns payroll looks like, but it's pretty obvious, even for a slack-jawed southerner like me, that they've gotten away with a lot of shit. I shouldn't even have to say more than one sentence. The Browns we grew up with now play in Baltimore. But who have the new Browns thrown money at? Eric Steinbach? Reuben Droughns? They haven't given away talent because until a couple years ago they didn't have any. Now Sean Jones and Kellen Winslow are gone, Cribbs is wanting a new deal, and everyone seems to expect Braylon Edwards to be gone when his deal runs up. So with that money they're saving, are they going after Albert Haynesworth? Houshmandzadeh? No. They'll take Eric Barton and Abe Elam and the best fans in the NFL are fine to sit through another rebuilding season because it's the Browns.
And I don't know, I haven't really heard anyone say we'd be a good team in 2010 with Cliff, just that we should've kept him because he's fun to watch and now our payroll is going to be too low. Myself, I'd rather get the most I can for him and make sure your future isn't as bad as disappointing as your present.
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