Da Bears - Time to move on past Trubisky? Another draft casualty?

[mjp28]

@the-gipper said:

I am of the opinion that none of those top 4 would likely make a really good NFL QB.

When Lawrence comes out....he is still odds on favorite to be the #1 overall pick that year.

They certainty have not been sorted out yet.

[The Gipper]

@mjp28 said:

We were talking about Kizer in that case.

No, I was talking about Trubisky in the post you replied to.

[The Gipper]

@mjp28 said:

They certainty have not been sorted out yet.

Well...some predictions have been made, but base on those....I agree with you:

CBS QB Prospects.

RKPLAYERSCHOOLYEARPOSPOS RKHTWT

1Tua TagovailoaAlabamaJrQB16-12185

Justin HerbertOregonSrQB26-623715

Jake FrommGeorgiaJrQB36-222038

K.J. CostelloStanfordSrQB46-522255

Steven MontezColoradoSrQB56-523068

Shea PattersonMichiganSrQB66-220289

McKenzie MiltonUCFSrQB75-1118598

Jacob EasonWashingtonJrQB86-6227

They don't have Hurts or Burrows in there....both of whom could come out.  (Fields not eligible)

[mjp28]

@mjp28 said:

He would have been much better   -but-   maybe not a first round pick or instant starter but we'll never really know for sure.

To be stuck as a starter for 15 games on that team was a "no win"  situation.

Kizer.

[hoorta]

@the-gipper said:

I think if he had stayed his whole time....he still would have sucked.   And yea, Tribs probably should have stayed another year.   But....if you are going to be an assured Top Ten pick in the draft.....(despite the departed Stan's opinion)   you don't stick around college.  You get your money.  I still think there is a great chance for Trubisky to be very good.  He has to have the right coaching (an issue I believe that affects Baker now as well)

If you're comparing Kizer and Trubisky's college  careers, there's no  comparison. I scouted both of them  a bunch, and I was on record  Kizer totally  sucked at  Notre  Dame, and had bust written  all over  him. Not so  with Mitch.

I did think the  Bears made a  mistake trading  up that high for Trubisky. 

I'll  agree with  jiggins  that currently Maxfield  is showing  some distressing  Deshone tendencies, but Kizer never  came close to  stringing together a  series of  good  games  like  Baker did last year.

[nickers]

@hoorta said:

If you're comparing Kizer and Trubisky's college  careers, there's no  comparison. I scouted both of them  a bunch, and I was on record  Kizer totally  sucked at  Notre  Dame, and had bust written  all over  him. Not so  with Mitch.

I did think the  Bears made a  mistake trading  up that high for Trubisky. 

I'll  agree with  jiggins  that currently Maxfield  is showing  some distressing  Deshone tendencies, but Kizer never  came close to  stringing together a  series of  good  games  like  Baker did last year.

Kizer had some good measurables as far as being a prospect goes... Good height.. Good Arm ... Athletic.. NFL type body... He lacked Vision, Poise and Accuracy...

[mjp28]

@nickers said:

Kizer had some good measurables as far as being a prospect goes... Good height.. Good Arm ... Athletic.. NFL type body... He lacked Vision, Poise and Accuracy...

On that oh-16 team he really didn't have much of a chance to show what he could do. Could he have benefited from another full year at ND definitely.

Should he have got a school paid $1M+ insurance policy and spent a year improving his draft status and a better deal,  Absolutely.

DeShone Kizer signed a 4 year, $4,948,416 contract with the Cleveland Browns, including a $1,738,848 signing bonus, $2,428,776 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $1,237,104. In 2019, Kizer will earn a base salary of $914,856, while carrying a cap hit of $914,856.

Would he have done better on a better team his rookie year..... we'll never really know, he didn't do much at GB either.

The brief career of DeShone Kizer:

Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	1D	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	QBR	Sk	Yds	NY/A	ANY/A	Sk%	4QC	GWD	AV
Career				18	15	0-15-0	275	518	53.1	3081	11	2.1	24	4.6	139	56	5.9	4.3	11.2	171.2	58.9		42	264	5.03	3.49	7.5			6
1 yr	CLE			15	15	0-15-0	255	476	53.6	2894	11	2.3	22	4.6	131	56	6.1	4.5	11.3	192.9	60.5		38	226	5.19	3.69	7.4			5
1 yr	GNB			3	0		20	42	47.6	187	0	0.0	2	4.8	8	29	4.5	2.3	9.4	62.3	40.5		4	38	3.24	1.28	8.7			1
2017	21	CLE	QB	7	15	15	0-15-0	255	476	53.6	2894	11	2.3	22	4.6	131	56	6.1	4.5	11.3	192.9	60.5	29.7	38	226	5.19	3.69	7.4			5
2018	22	GNB		9	3	0		20	42	47.6	187	0	0.0	2	4.8	8	29	4.5	2.3	9.4	62.3	40.5	25.2	4	38	3.24	1.28	8.7			1

And Mitchell Trubisky:

Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	1D	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	QBR	Sk	Yds	NY/A	ANY/A	Sk%	4QC	GWD	AV
Career				31	31	18-13-0	588	924	63.6	6255	36	3.9	21	2.3	312	70	6.8	6.5	10.6	201.8	86.8		65	398	5.92	5.69	6.6	2	4	20
2017	23	CHI	QB	10	12	12	4-8-0	196	330	59.4	2193	7	2.1	7	2.1	100	70	6.6	6.1	11.2	182.8	77.5	31.6	31	196	5.53	5.05	8.6	0	1	7
2018*	24	CHI	QB	10	14	14	11-3-0	289	434	66.6	3223	24	5.5	12	2.8	163	70	7.4	7.3	11.2	230.2	95.4	70.8	24	143	6.72	6.59	5.2	1	2	13
2019	25	CHI	QB	10	5	5	3-2-0	103	160	64.4	839	5	3.1	2	1.3	49	36	5.2	5.3	8.1	167.8	82.8	31.8	10	59	4.59	4.65	5.9	1	1

1 playoff game - full playoff gamelogs · 2 comebacks, 4 game-winning drives - full summary

[TexasAg1969]

@jiggins7919 said:

I always wondered about that too. Also, lots of similarities between Kizer and Baker right now. High passes, running to the right and chucking it, turning it over in the red zone, hardly ever throwing TD passes, bad luck INTs off receiver's hands, etc. 

It's deja vu all over again!?

EDIT: Don't you guys have any local witches who can ward off the evil spell on the Browns???

[nickers]

@texasag1969 said:

It's deja vu all over again!?

EDIT: Don't you guys have any local witches who can ward off the evil spell on the Browns???

theyre all dead!!

[TexasAg1969]

@nickers said:

theyre all dead!!

I could swear some of you claim to be married to one.??

[Flugel]

@hoorta said:

If you're comparing Kizer and Trubisky's college  careers, there's no  comparison. I scouted both of them  a bunch, and I was on record  Kizer totally  sucked at  Notre  Dame, and had bust written  all over  him. Not so  with Mitch.

I did think the  Bears made a  mistake trading  up that high for Trubisky. 

I'll  agree with  jiggins  that currently Maxfield  is showing  some distressing  Deshone tendencies, but Kizer never  came close to  stringing together a  series of  good  games  like  Baker did last year.

It looks like Baker had more of a Heisman Trophy-type Banquet circuit after his rookie year than he did the off-season leading up to the draft.  He had to stay in shape, put football 1st in the off=season for the draft, and then he had to compete to start throughout training camp... After setting the rookie record for TD passes despite only 13 starts - Baker seemed to feel like he proved what he set out to prove.

What came next?   The volume of commercials NO Cleveland Brown ever has. Can we go a college football Saturday or NFL Sunday without seeing Baker in a commercial?  He also got married this off-season.  Last but not least, we landed OBJ which probably had him feeling Easy Street ahead.  He also lost the continuity of the position coach that had him far more fundamentally sound than I've seen this year throwing off the  backward hops while running around in the pocket holding onto the ball way too long (complete opposite of the guy that got rid of the ball quickly and accurately in 2018).

He is NOT DeShone Kizer.  Kizer's college coach said Kizer wasn't ready for the NFL Game.  Baker's college coach said he was the ideal 1st round QB.  As much as Colon Cowhyde's REAL Franchise QB Sam Darnold epitomized flawless passing despite watching The 13 Ghosts on every play Monday Night - Baker will find his way back to what has worked over the mental errors and evils of holding onto the ball too long. 

Trubisky led the Bears to what should have been the go ahead points in the playoffs before Parkey's foot parkey'd the Bears into hibernation. This year, his offensive line has been horrible while some of his favorite targets have missed games to injury. He's not a miracle worker; but I've seen evidence the Bears can win with him as recently as last year. 

Hey, I predicted Lamar Jackson would suck!  How am I doing on that one?  We can keep excusing every win they have - but once upon a time this guy won a Heisman Trophy regardless of the style of QB he played making Louisville far more relevant than you see them today.  The same Seattle team that forced 4 turnovers on us - had ZERO solutions for him.  Last year they were 4-5 with Joey Bottaflacco and they surged to playoffs after he took over at QB with the exact same teammates on offense and defense - hate it or not. They weren't keeping drives alive at all until the QB change, which got them all the way up to #2 in the NFL in rushing (which relieved tired tired legs on their defense to the extent both sides played better).  YES, I know it wasn't passing but the change at 1 position cpr'd 4-5 football into 10-6 football. This year they're 5-2 even after the "wait til they play Seattle AT SEATTLE."   While his style is high risk and reckless in every way - nobody ever gets a clean shot on him much like Russell Wilson behind a much better offensive line than Wilson usually has.  If this was still the same NFL I grew up watching, I would be more inclined to agree with all those thinking he won't last - but it isn't... Good news?   We kicked HIS asss into what I thought he'd be with multiple turnovers and horrible passing stats.

[jiggins7919]

@texasag1969 said:

It's deja vu all over again!?

EDIT: Don't you guys have any local witches who can ward off the evil spell on the Browns???

I'm trying everything I know! Lol. 

I simply didn't see this happening to Baker. I honestly thought we wouldn't see the days of struggling qb's for another 15 years. Now, that might still be true, but it's almost impossible to get on track against this defense...at Foxboro...in the rain. 

[TexasAg1969]

@jiggins7919 said:

almost impossible to get on track against this defense...at Foxboro...in the rain. 

Oh shit. The jinx is never f'n ending!?

[mjp28]

Before we put the Kizer vs Trubisky debate to bed hopefully forever I noticed one minor but kind of important thing.

Ages,. Kizer 21, 22 Trubisky 23, 24, 25 DeShone was gone before Trubisky started in the NFL.

As a general rule age can be an important factor before you throw a kid into the fire of NFL life.  Experience is also important I think it rare when a college kid is ready to run an NFL attack with professional defensive players trying to kill you they're all better than just a few good ones in college.

You don't often find a Bernie Kosar with good college experience a NC ring in the supplemental draft who wants to play for his hometown team.

So all of you kids out there stay in school and study..... damnit.

[Tour2ma]

Here's the thing... you cannot take a QB prospect early with no video evidence as to what is between his ears... and that is what the Bears (and Gipper) did with Mitch.

[jiggins7919]

Ability to read defenses and throw with anticipation are so key. It's why I like the kid out of LSU so much, and why I'd take him over Tua. 

[gumby73]

@tour2ma said:

 you cannot take a QB prospect early with no video evidence as to what is between his ears... and that is what the Bears (and Gipper) did with Mitch.

Mitch's between the ears, played all of, 2 pro style defenses in 2016 at college 1) Virginia Tech at UNC= 13 of 33 with 2 picks in loss.. 2) Bowl game loss to Stanford= 23 of 39 with 2 picks.. Mitch still fails to read disguised coverages.. Just as Bake & Josh Allen & Darnold are just seeing it from the pro defensive tape monsters.. 

[The Gipper]

@mjp28 said:

On that oh-16 team he really didn't have much of a chance to show what he could do. Could he have benefited from another full year at ND definitely.

Should he have got a school paid $1M+ insurance policy and spent a year improving his draft status and a better deal,  Absolutely.

DeShone Kizer signed a 4 year, $4,948,416 contract with the Cleveland Browns, including a $1,738,848 signing bonus, $2,428,776 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $1,237,104. In 2019, Kizer will earn a base salary of $914,856, while carrying a cap hit of $914,856.

Would he have done better on a better team his rookie year..... we'll never really know, he didn't do much at GB either.

The brief career of DeShone Kizer:

Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	1D	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	QBR	Sk	Yds	NY/A	ANY/A	Sk%	4QC	GWD	AV
Career				18	15	0-15-0	275	518	53.1	3081	11	2.1	24	4.6	139	56	5.9	4.3	11.2	171.2	58.9		42	264	5.03	3.49	7.5			6
1 yr	CLE			15	15	0-15-0	255	476	53.6	2894	11	2.3	22	4.6	131	56	6.1	4.5	11.3	192.9	60.5		38	226	5.19	3.69	7.4			5
1 yr	GNB			3	0		20	42	47.6	187	0	0.0	2	4.8	8	29	4.5	2.3	9.4	62.3	40.5		4	38	3.24	1.28	8.7			1
2017	21	CLE	QB	7	15	15	0-15-0	255	476	53.6	2894	11	2.3	22	4.6	131	56	6.1	4.5	11.3	192.9	60.5	29.7	38	226	5.19	3.69	7.4			5
2018	22	GNB		9	3	0		20	42	47.6	187	0	0.0	2	4.8	8	29	4.5	2.3	9.4	62.3	40.5	25.2	4	38	3.24	1.28	8.7			1

And Mitchell Trubisky:

Year	Age	Tm	Pos	No.	G	GS	QBrec	Cmp	Att	Cmp%	Yds	TD	TD%	Int	Int%	1D	Lng	Y/A	AY/A	Y/C	Y/G	Rate	QBR	Sk	Yds	NY/A	ANY/A	Sk%	4QC	GWD	AV
Career				31	31	18-13-0	588	924	63.6	6255	36	3.9	21	2.3	312	70	6.8	6.5	10.6	201.8	86.8		65	398	5.92	5.69	6.6	2	4	20
2017	23	CHI	QB	10	12	12	4-8-0	196	330	59.4	2193	7	2.1	7	2.1	100	70	6.6	6.1	11.2	182.8	77.5	31.6	31	196	5.53	5.05	8.6	0	1	7
2018*	24	CHI	QB	10	14	14	11-3-0	289	434	66.6	3223	24	5.5	12	2.8	163	70	7.4	7.3	11.2	230.2	95.4	70.8	24	143	6.72	6.59	5.2	1	2	13
2019	25	CHI	QB	10	5	5	3-2-0	103	160	64.4	839	5	3.1	2	1.3	49	36	5.2	5.3	8.1	167.8	82.8	31.8	10	59	4.59	4.65	5.9	1	1

1 playoff game - full playoff gamelogs · 2 comebacks, 4 game-winning drives - full summary

It is idiocy to wax nostalgic for DeShone Kizer....or to believe that he was ever any good....or will ever be any good.

XFL may be in his future, maybe.

[The Gipper]

@tour2ma said:

Here's the thing... you cannot take a QB prospect early with no video evidence as to what is between his ears... and that is what the Bears (and Gipper) did with Mitch.

I said he would be Top Ten draft pick.  The Bears, a professional NFL organization with well paid scouts and GMs, agreed.  If the Bears had not taken him in the Top Ten.....someone else also with paid scouts and GMs  would have.  The Bears traded up to #2 to get him because they knew that other teams would have taken him before they had the chance.

And it still remains to be seen how well he will turn out.  And the fact is, there is NO video evidence of what is between the ears of any QB that is drafted anywhere. Or if there is, it is very, very rare....you can count on one hand those QBs that came out in the last 40 years that were considered to be that. (Elway, Manning, Luck...and that's about it).  Look at what has happened to other highly touted, highly drafted QBs who have been drafted that high:   Wentz, Mariota, Winston, Stafford, Bortles, Darnold, even Cam somewhat, even Baker....a whole list of them. All having struggles  If you can have video evidence of what is between a players ears....then why did Russel Wilson have to wait for the third round.....Montana until the third round.  Favre until the end of Round 2.  Rodgers went like #24, ....not to even speak of ole #199. 

A guy like Favre even had to be traded to be put in the right situation for him to shine. Kurt Warner, HOF....not even drafted.  Predicting who will and will not become an outstanding QB is a crap shoot, and a lot of guys a lot smarter than you....and even me, have made mistakes in that area. 

[mjp28]

@the-gipper said:

It is idiocy to wax nostalgic for DeShone Kizer....or to believe that he was ever any good....or will ever be any good.

XFL may be in his future, maybe.

Nostalgic?    0-16 wasn't nostalgic is was freaking painful, this is/was more like an autopsy of the deceased trying to put together what happened and why.

Kizer was asked to be a rookie savior and was just not ready to walk on water yet.  Hopefully this chapter of BROWNS football is dead and buried......with the corpse.

Try and keep up Gip.