Bold idea that would change the landscape of sports in Cleveland
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Right...unless they start tearing down a whole neighborhood (blighted?)...or commercial district.
I mean, in a city that at one time had over 900,000 people, and now has under 400,000, you have to think there's some room SOMEWHERE... ?
I mean, in a city that at one time had over 900,000 people, and now has under 400,000, you have to think there's some room SOMEWHERE... ?
Go ahead and look at the satellite images that Hoorta and I have, and then tell us where.. We are all ears and eyes.
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Well, that is just what is happening to a couple of them around here. Brookside Country Club in Norton, perhaps the oldest golf course in Summit Co. has been sold to real estate developers.
Valley View...gone. Brandywine CC....gone. Both Summit Co. Pine Valley near me here in Medina Co. almost suffered the same fate, but apparently the land developer has decided that it will be saved.
I a guessing that Millenials just don't like to play golf as much as older generations.
They like to play golf ...on a video game system
They like to play golf ...on a video game system
Is that really it....they just do video games? I kind of gave up golf about 20 years ago....but I could consider getting into it again....just for the camaraderie aspects. About the same for bowling. I put my money now into travel, and I take my walks in parks.
I also think that the whole idea of Tiger getting minorities heavily involved in golf also went up in smoke. Oh, there was some of it....not as much as expected.
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Your feeling on watching a football game indoors is akin to my thoughts on building stadiums in the sticks and surrounding them with parking lots.
Zero ambiance.
I just had another thought- and you probably won't like it. Can't say it's anything original- the idea was brought up before. If you want a dome, and can't figure out where to put it. Put it right where First Energy is right now. Tear down FE, and the Browns play at Ohio State until the new place is done. The Vikings did the same gambit playing at The University of Minnesota.
I just had another thought- and you probably won't like it. Can't say it's anything original- the idea was brought up before. If you want a dome, and can't figure out where to put it. Put it right where First Energy is right now. Tear down FE, and the Browns play at Ohio State until the new place is done. The Vikings did the same gambit playing at The University of Minnesota.
Except the Univ. of Minnesota Stadium was, literally a long walk from the Metrodome. About a mile, mile and a half at most. (my son worked right across the street from the Minn Stadium for a couple of years....and from his place you could look down the street there and see the Metrodome...or the now US Bank Stadium.
Ohio Stadium is 145 miles away from First Energy. So unless you want to alienate a lot of your fans, you shouldn't go that far away....unless, of course, you are trying to court that market, which Haslam probably would want to do as he now owns the soccer team that is there.
Akron Univerity' s Infocision Stadium is actually the 3rd largest college football stadium in Ohio....after only Ohio Stadium, and the old Nippert Stadium where Cincinnati U plays. And it is new...built in 2009, and holds 30,000.....which is more than the Chargers have been playing in the last few years; and it is larger, and closer than the HOF stadium (22K capacity). It could be the better alternative...if you felt that there had to be a tear down.
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I mean, in a city that at one time had over 900,000 people, and now has under 400,000, you have to think there's some room SOMEWHERE... ?
Go ahead and look at the satellite images that Hoorta and I have, and then tell us where.. We are all ears and eyes.
Go ahead and look at the satellite images that Hoorta and I have, and then tell us where.. We are all ears and eyes.
They somehow figured out places to build the Jacobs Field, Gund Arena and the Wolstein Center in the late 80s/early 90s, I'm sure they could figure out somewhere to do it again.
But I guess nothing new can be built within the city limits of Cleveland. It's all full. CLEVELAND IS CLOSED FOR FURTHER PROGRESS! ? Someone better tell Dee!
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Go ahead and look at the satellite images that Hoorta and I have, and then tell us where.. We are all ears and eyes.
They somehow figured out places to build the Jacobs Field, Gund Arena and the Wolstein Center in the late 80s/early 90s, I'm sure they could figure out somewhere to do it again.
But I guess nothing new can be built within the city limits of Cleveland. It's all full. CLEVELAND IS CLOSED FOR FURTHER PROGRESS! ? Someone better tell Dee!
They somehow figured out places to build the Jacobs Field, Gund Arena and the Wolstein Center in the late 80s/early 90s, I'm sure they could figure out somewhere to do it again.
But I guess nothing new can be built downtown. It's all full. CLEVELAND IS CLOSED FOR FURTHER PROGRESS! ?
No one is saying that.....We are saying for YOU to tell where YOU would propose to put it where it would fit. And FYI, what did they do to build the Jake/Gundarena/Wolstein? They had to tear down a lot of buildings that were there. Here is an aerial view of where these things are now. This is an older picture, maybe even in the 50s. But I recall the Central Market, which was the main facility there, plus there were a number of older warehouses and the like:
Compare now:
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Those are some seriously cool photos...
The first one is from the 1930s... if you look at Cleveland Stadium - it doesn't have lights yet. They added lights in 1939 I believe.
I'm kind of intrigued about the Wolstein Center area... the next time I'm in downtown I think I'll venture over and check it out. Seems like an area that if the Browns could buy the arena off of CSU (if CSU is serious about wanting to rid itself of it) that there might be some other older barely used buildings that could be flattened for a new Browns stadium.
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I just had another thought- and you probably won't like it. Can't say it's anything original- the idea was brought up before. If you want a dome, and can't figure out where to put it. Put it right where First Energy is right now. Tear down FE, and the Browns play at Ohio State until the new place is done. The Vikings did the same gambit playing at The University of Minnesota.
Except the Univ. of Minnesota Stadium was, literally a long walk from the Metrodome. About a mile, mile and a half at most. (my son worked right across the street from the Minn Stadium for a couple of years....and from his place you could look down the street there and see the Metrodome...or the now US Bank Stadium.
Ohio Stadium is 145 miles away from First Energy. So unless you want to alienate a lot of your fans, you shouldn't go that far away....unless, of course, you are trying to court that market, which Haslam probably would want to do as he now owns the soccer team that is there.
Akron Univerity' s Infocision Stadium is actually the 3rd largest college football stadium in Ohio....after only Ohio Stadium, and the old Nippert Stadium where Cincinnati U plays. And it is new...built in 2009, and holds 30,000.....which is more than the Chargers have been playing in the last few years; and it is larger, and closer than the HOF stadium (22K capacity). It could be the better alternative...if you felt that there had to be a tear down.
Except the Univ. of Minnesota Stadium was, literally a long walk from the Metrodome. About a mile, mile and a half at most. (my son worked right across the street from the Minn Stadium for a couple of years....and from his place you could look down the street there and see the Metrodome...or the now US Bank Stadium.
Ohio Stadium is 145 miles away from First Energy. So unless you want to alienate a lot of your fans, you shouldn't go that far away....unless, of course, you are trying to court that market, which Haslam probably would want to do as he now owns the soccer team that is there.
Akron Univerity' s Infocision Stadium is actually the 3rd largest college football stadium in Ohio....after only Ohio Stadium, and the old Nippert Stadium where Cincinnati U plays. And it is new...built in 2009, and holds 30,000.....which is more than the Chargers have been playing in the last few years; and it is larger, and closer than the HOF stadium (22K capacity). It could be the better alternative...if you felt that there had to be a tear down.
Nah- I doubt the Haslams would want to downgrade over 30,000 seats for a couple years. That 140 mile drive isn't hateful, I've made it more times than I can count. On one of my Sundays in Columbus (Browns were away) at the German Village Browns Backers Bar- there's a bunch of folks in C-bus who have season tickets to the Browns and make that drive to every home game.
The Browns drew 20,000+ fans just for an intrasquad scrimmage at OSU, and I'd bet they would draw at least equal to First Energy at Ohio Stadium. Of course I'd love it for a couple years- it would knock off a cumulative 4 hours of driving for me every home game.
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Except the Univ. of Minnesota Stadium was, literally a long walk from the Metrodome. About a mile, mile and a half at most. (my son worked right across the street from the Minn Stadium for a couple of years....and from his place you could look down the street there and see the Metrodome...or the now US Bank Stadium.
Ohio Stadium is 145 miles away from First Energy. So unless you want to alienate a lot of your fans, you shouldn't go that far away....unless, of course, you are trying to court that market, which Haslam probably would want to do as he now owns the soccer team that is there.
Akron Univerity' s Infocision Stadium is actually the 3rd largest college football stadium in Ohio....after only Ohio Stadium, and the old Nippert Stadium where Cincinnati U plays. And it is new...built in 2009, and holds 30,000.....which is more than the Chargers have been playing in the last few years; and it is larger, and closer than the HOF stadium (22K capacity). It could be the better alternative...if you felt that there had to be a tear down.
Nah- I doubt the Haslams would want to downgrade over 30,000 seats for a couple years. That 140 mile drive isn't hateful, I've made it more times than I can count. On one of my Sundays in Columbus (Browns were away) at the German Village Browns Backers Bar- there's a bunch of folks in C-bus who have season tickets to the Browns and make that drive to every home game.
The Browns drew 20,000+ fans just for an intrasquad scrimmage at OSU, and I'd bet they would draw at least equal to First Energy at Ohio Stadium. Of course I'd love it for a couple years- it would knock off a cumulative 4 hours of driving for me every home game.
Nah- I doubt the Haslams would want to downgrade over 30,000 seats for a couple years. That 140 mile drive isn't hateful, I've made it more times than I can count. On one of my Sundays in Columbus (Browns were away) at the German Village Browns Backers Bar- there's a bunch of folks in C-bus who have season tickets to the Browns and make that drive to every home game.
The Browns drew 20,000+ fans just for an intrasquad scrimmage at OSU, and I'd bet they would draw at least equal to First Energy at Ohio Stadium. Of course I'd love it for a couple years- it would knock off a cumulative 4 hours of driving for me every home game.
Well, the Chargers did it, but they went to a town which really had zero interest in them as a football team.
Nevertheless. Here is an article that discusses much of what we have been talking about here, and it seems to get at a lot of the issues involved, including the land/airport issue, financing issues, etc. A lot of NFL stadiums now have their own parking that the teams own, control and profit from. They are also doing a lot of accompanying development....hotels, etc. That is the deal in Dallas and in New England. Those teams have like 300 acres they are "exploiting" for their uses (football and beyond). Right now, Cleveland stadium sits on like 35 acres and is bounded by the lake, the railroad, the port......so, yes, it is a constricted site for what the so called NFL Entrepreneurs would want.
https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/the-browns-are-talking-about-a-new-stadium/Content?oid=18496853
This also explains the very very difficult situation with the airport: the FAA controls what happens to it, not the city. It says it would take 20 years for that airport to be closed....and even then, it could not be give over to private development.
So, go find a 300 acre site in or near downtown Cleveland. You can't.
In checking with some
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So, here you go: 331 acres for sale in Trumbull Co. Only 50 miles from downtown Cleveland (not much further than the 49ers are from SFO)
https://www.landsofamerica.com/property/331-acres-in-Trumbull-County-Ohio/7142666/
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The more I think about it the more I believe that the NFL owners want those stadiums to be located in places where they can have like 300 acres so they can have their stadium their development in their parking. They also don’t really want public transportation to the stadiums because that would force everyone to drive there and pay whatever the rate is they would want to Charge for parking. 50 bucks 100 bucks whatever. Plus the hotels and shopping etc. etc. they don’t just want to make money off the games and concessions. They want to make money on all this other stuff.
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Nah- I doubt the Haslams would want to downgrade over 30,000 seats for a couple years. That 140 mile drive isn't hateful, I've made it more times than I can count. On one of my Sundays in Columbus (Browns were away) at the German Village Browns Backers Bar- there's a bunch of folks in C-bus who have season tickets to the Browns and make that drive to every home game.
The Browns drew 20,000+ fans just for an intrasquad scrimmage at OSU, and I'd bet they would draw at least equal to First Energy at Ohio Stadium. Of course I'd love it for a couple years- it would knock off a cumulative 4 hours of driving for me every home game.
Well, the Chargers did it, but they went to a town which really had zero interest in them as a football team.
Nevertheless. Here is an article that discusses much of what we have been talking about here, and it seems to get at a lot of the issues involved, including the land/airport issue, financing issues, etc. A lot of NFL stadiums now have their own parking that the teams own, control and profit from. They are also doing a lot of accompanying development....hotels, etc. That is the deal in Dallas and in New England. Those teams have like 300 acres they are "exploiting" for their uses (football and beyond). Right now, Cleveland stadium sits on like 35 acres and is bounded by the lake, the railroad, the port......so, yes, it is a constricted site for what the so called NFL Entrepreneurs would want.
https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/the-browns-are-talking-about-a-new-stadium/Content?oid=18496853
This also explains the very very difficult situation with the airport: the FAA controls what happens to it, not the city. It says it would take 20 years for that airport to be closed....and even then, it could not be give over to private development.
So, go find a 300 acre site in or near downtown Cleveland. You can't.
In checking with some
Well, the Chargers did it, but they went to a town which really had zero interest in them as a football team.
Nevertheless. Here is an article that discusses much of what we have been talking about here, and it seems to get at a lot of the issues involved, including the land/airport issue, financing issues, etc. A lot of NFL stadiums now have their own parking that the teams own, control and profit from. They are also doing a lot of accompanying development....hotels, etc. That is the deal in Dallas and in New England. Those teams have like 300 acres they are "exploiting" for their uses (football and beyond). Right now, Cleveland stadium sits on like 35 acres and is bounded by the lake, the railroad, the port......so, yes, it is a constricted site for what the so called NFL Entrepreneurs would want.
https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/the-browns-are-talking-about-a-new-stadium/Content?oid=18496853
This also explains the very very difficult situation with the airport: the FAA controls what happens to it, not the city. It says it would take 20 years for that airport to be closed....and even then, it could not be give over to private development.
So, go find a 300 acre site in or near downtown Cleveland. You can't.
You replied before I could edit my post.
Only in regard to the Chargers playing in a dinky 20,000 seat venue. There's a humongous difference between that and the Browns. A 30,000 seat stadium wouldn't work, and here's why. I'd be willing to bet the ranch Cleveland has far more than 30,000 season tickets accounted for. The 100 level at First Energy is completely sold out.
The last thing in the world you'd want to do is tell any season ticket holder that you're shut out of getting tickets to the game. Give that scenario, you can be sure those on the lower rungs of the seniority ladder would almost certainly opt to drive a couple hours to the games, instead of being shut out.
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They like to play golf ...on a video game system
Is that really it....they just do video games? I kind of gave up golf about 20 years ago....but I could consider getting into it again....just for the camaraderie aspects. About the same for bowling. I put my money now into travel, and I take my walks in parks.
I also think that the whole idea of Tiger getting minorities heavily involved in golf also went up in smoke. Oh, there was some of it....not as much as expected.
Is that really it....they just do video games? I kind of gave up golf about 20 years ago....but I could consider getting into it again....just for the camaraderie aspects. About the same for bowling. I put my money now into travel, and I take my walks in parks.
I also think that the whole idea of Tiger getting minorities heavily involved in golf also went up in smoke. Oh, there was some of it....not as much as expected.
I don’t know but I know a lot millennials that like to play video games.
Maybe it is the time commitment.
i know I love to golf when I have 4/5 hours on a weekend which is rare these days
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Is that really it....they just do video games? I kind of gave up golf about 20 years ago....but I could consider getting into it again....just for the camaraderie aspects. About the same for bowling. I put my money now into travel, and I take my walks in parks.
I also think that the whole idea of Tiger getting minorities heavily involved in golf also went up in smoke. Oh, there was some of it....not as much as expected.
I don’t know but I know a lot millennials that like to play video games.
Maybe it is the time commitment.
i know I love to golf when I have 4/5 hours on a weekend which is rare these days
i know I love to golf when I have 4/5 hours on a weekend which is rare these days
Golf is only good if you have a bonus set aside for longest club throw after burning worms or nailing fish.???️
???
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Nah- I doubt the Haslams would want to downgrade over 30,000 seats for a couple years. That 140 mile drive isn't hateful, I've made it more times than I can count. On one of my Sundays in Columbus (Browns were away) at the German Village Browns Backers Bar- there's a bunch of folks in C-bus who have season tickets to the Browns and make that drive to every home game.
The Browns drew 20,000+ fans just for an intrasquad scrimmage at OSU, and I'd bet they would draw at least equal to First Energy at Ohio Stadium. Of course I'd love it for a couple years- it would knock off a cumulative 4 hours of driving for me every home game.
Well, the Chargers did it, but they went to a town which really had zero interest in them as a football team.
Nevertheless. Here is an article that discusses much of what we have been talking about here, and it seems to get at a lot of the issues involved, including the land/airport issue, financing issues, etc. A lot of NFL stadiums now have their own parking that the teams own, control and profit from. They are also doing a lot of accompanying development....hotels, etc. That is the deal in Dallas and in New England. Those teams have like 300 acres they are "exploiting" for their uses (football and beyond). Right now, Cleveland stadium sits on like 35 acres and is bounded by the lake, the railroad, the port......so, yes, it is a constricted site for what the so called NFL Entrepreneurs would want.
https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/the-browns-are-talking-about-a-new-stadium/Content?oid=18496853
This also explains the very very difficult situation with the airport: the FAA controls what happens to it, not the city. It says it would take 20 years for that airport to be closed....and even then, it could not be give over to private development.
So, go find a 300 acre site in or near downtown Cleveland. You can't.
In checking with some
So, go find a 300 acre site in or near downtown Cleveland. You can't.
Since you don't want a domed stadium, you are muddying the waters of this conversation to say that it is impossible to find anywhere in the city limits of a city that has lost well over half its population since 1950 by now saying that you would need a 300 acre site in or near downtown Cleveland.
How many acres does the entire Gateway complex take up, Gip? How many acres does Lucas Oil in Indianapolis take up? Seattle's CenturyLink? Detroit's Ford Field?
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So, go find a 300 acre site in or near downtown Cleveland. You can't.
Since you don't want a domed stadium, you are muddying the waters of this conversation to say that it is impossible to find anywhere in the city limits of a city that has lost well over half its population since 1950 by now saying that you would need a 300 acre site in or near downtown Cleveland.
How many acres does the entire Gateway complex take up, Gip? How many acres does Lucas Oil in Indianapolis take up? Seattle's CenturyLink? Detroit's Ford Field?
Since you don't want a domed stadium, you are muddying the waters of this conversation to say that it is impossible to find anywhere in the city limits of a city that has lost well over half its population since 1950 by now saying that you would need a 300 acre site in or near downtown Cleveland.
How many acres does the entire Gateway complex take up, Gip? How many acres does Lucas Oil in Indianapolis take up? Seattle's CenturyLink? Detroit's Ford Field?
The City of Cleveland has poured quite a bit of $$ into downtown under the Frank Jackson regime. They've been ultra criticized for this, as the neighborhoods have been ignored, safety forces budgets slashed, snow plows under-maintained, etc.
So pardon the pun, but it's truly a "political football" that he (Jackson) will want to avoid. If Haslam wants a new home in time, he may turn to the Cuyahoga County Council instead.
I believe the Browns are locked into Berea through 2039. So there's plenty of time....
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I used to hate indoor football back when it was my dad's era of being a fan. Unfortunately, since it's become a passing league - here's what's been won in the Great Lakes regions while Cleveland never makes post seasons any more:
1 SB Championship in Chicago - although 85 was way before they made rules babying/favoring passers.
2 SB Championships in GB compared to how many they won in the 60s. The 1 SB they won with Aaron Rodgers as a Wild Card team that had to win 3 road games (inclusive of beating Atlanta in a dome) before beating the Cutler-less Bears in Chicago for the NFC Championship.
0 SBs in Detroit or as Lumberg used to call it "Detroilet"
0 Superbowls in Cleveland after being the last team to win the NFL Championship in 1964 before the name of it was changed to Superbowl the next year. If I'm off by a year Gipper will let me know...
0 Superbowl Ws for Minnesota
0 Superbowl Ws in Buffalo
0 Superbowl Ws for Cincy even though they're not on a Great Lake per say
Interesting... Like I've said before, I prefer cold weather football outdoors.
But I also understand that the city of Cleveland is possibly missing out on a lot of events - events that for example cold weather cities like Indianapolis or Minneapolis get - because they don't have a retractable dome football stadium.
Plus, it's about time Cleveland does something with their lakefront.
Interesting... Like I've said before, I prefer cold weather football outdoors.
But I also understand that the city of Cleveland is possibly missing out on a lot of events - events that for example cold weather cities like Indianapolis or Minneapolis get - because they don't have a retractable dome football stadium.
Plus, it's about time Cleveland does something with their lakefront.
I think the same. Question being if would they open the roof during cold (playoffs?) games...
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Another view from Terminal Tower:
Another view from Terminal Tower:
I remember Cleveland from the 50s and 60s when my aunt and uncle lived in Parma and many visits some by train up to Cleveland to watch the Indians. I always thought that it was a chopped up "busy" city by the lake but I was younger.
Cleveland was also based around industry and the rails that serviced them then add in the freeway network and the words "greenfield site" don't exactly pop up. Unless you bulldoze a few big neighborhoods for a stadium and parking a true Cleveland site might be very hard to do.
Cleveland in the 50s and 60s was one busy place !
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Another view from Terminal Tower:
I remember Cleveland from the 50s and 60s when my aunt and uncle lived in Parma and many visits some by train up to Cleveland to watch the Indians. I always thought that it was a chopped up "busy" city by the lake but I was younger.
Cleveland was also based around industry and the rails that serviced them then add in the freeway network and the words "greenfield site" don't exactly pop up. Unless you bulldoze a few big neighborhoods for a stadium and parking a true Cleveland site might be very hard to do.
Cleveland in the 50s and 60s was one busy place !
I remember Cleveland from the 50s and 60s when my aunt and uncle lived in Parma and many visits some by train up to Cleveland to watch the Indians. I always thought that it was a chopped up "busy" city by the lake but I was younger.
Cleveland was also based around industry and the rails that serviced them then add in the freeway network and the words "greenfield site" don't exactly pop up. Unless you bulldoze a few big neighborhoods for a stadium and parking a true Cleveland site might be very hard to do.
Cleveland in the 50s and 60s was one busy place !
Exactly. And where are you going to do that? In what they call Asia town?
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