Wait for WR until the 3rd round
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Typical browns board thread... a draft that doesn't consist of any STUD player. All will be duds. Imagine that.
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XxDaBuckeyexX said:
Depends on how youre using it. All im saying is that its far from impossible. Improbable, maybe....
It's certainly possible, just unlikely. Thanks to Dan Snyder, the going price of first round picks is through the roof.
not really, word is, everyone wants to trade down this year. And the price of the #22 pick would be nothing compared to the #2 pick and the highly rated RG3. There was a bidding war for that pick, which is why the price skyrocketed.It's certainly possible, just unlikely. Thanks to Dan Snyder, the going price of first round picks is through the roof.
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XxDaBuckeyexX said:
How much realistically, do you think it would cost to move from 35 to 22 or so? Our extra third and fourth would probably do it....
Brady Quinn = our second, and next year's first. That's what it cost to move up that high. That was a dumb trade. OTOH, realistically, it's our second, top third and next years second. Still interested?
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XxDaBuckeyexX said:
I think its very plausible we end up with 3 of the first 26.
why draft both mack and shazier though?
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How much realistically, do you think it would cost to move from 35 to 22 or so? Our extra third and fourth would probably do it....
XxDaBuckeyexX said:
How much realistically, do you think it would cost to move from 35 to 22 or so? Our extra third and fourth would probably do it....
OK, well, gopher it Browns.
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Typical browns board thread... a draft that doesn't consist of any STUD player. All will be duds. Imagine that.
Typical browns board thread... a draft that doesn't consist of any STUD player. All will be duds. Imagine that.
Well, most analysts say that Clowney is the biggest stud to come around on defense in years.....but beyond him perhaps you are right there are no 100+ grade studs, but most say this is a deep draft in overall talent.
So, it may not be a good year for that one power stud....but it may be a good year to pick a number of quality players.
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Typical browns board thread... a draft that doesn't consist of any STUD player. All will be duds. Imagine that.
Typical browns board thread... a draft that doesn't consist of any STUD player. All will be duds. Imagine that.
I see your opinion, but see no reasoning for the basis. Typical response from a fan who chimes in to feel involved. Imagine that.
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I know the offense is the center of attention, but I see that as more of a quarterback issue than anything else. We need a right tackle and wide receiver as well. The draft is loaded with offensive talent. You can find starters in the 2nd and 3rd that would have went much higher in previous years. Defense is a different story when it comes to our needs. I'm huge on Christian Jones, I think he has great potential for a 3rd or 4th rounder, when do you stop drafting guys in those rounds that you know you'll look to replace in a couple of years? He would get worked in coverage, as most of the ILB would in the mid to late rounds of this draft, expecially considering the high speed, passing league the NFL has become.
I read that the Texans and Rams are working to trade down and have found few showing serious interest. I've also read that because of this, the Browns pick at 4 is becoming a hot pick for those looking to trade up. Teams are waiting to see how things fall, and a guy like Watkins or Mack could very well be the guys that pull in trade offers at 4. Getting Gilbert at 8 or 10 with an extra second rounder would be sick. As much as I want a QB in the first, I get the feeling Winston and/or Mariota (as Farmer has suggested) are higher on our list. Build the foundation and get our QB when he's there. Taking a guy at 4, 26 or even 35 is a waste if he's not the guy.
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Typical browns board thread... a draft that doesn't consist of any STUD player. All will be duds. Imagine that.
Typical browns board thread... a draft that doesn't consist of any STUD player. All will be duds. Imagine that.
Well, the Browns have a secret weapon now. (Shh, don't tell anyone but it's Pettine and his crew).
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My favorite part about debating our draft strategy (knowing I have no say in any of it, but liking football too much to just sit quietly and wait for the draft) is listening to the case made for a QB, WR, and OT in the draft. The usual reasoning is that, heck, the defense was good last year, and they will be better with no improvement if we can just keep the offense on the field longer. For this, I have to agree. But, I look at it like this...
Take 2 teams from 2013, the Broncos and Seahawks.
Manning had 5,477 passing yards, 55:10 TD:INT ratio (5.5:1), a 68.3 completion percentage, and was sacked 18 times while averaging 342 yards per game.
Wilson had 3,357 passing yards, 26:9 TD:INT ratio (2.8:1), a 63.1 completion percentage, and was sacked 44 times while averaging 210 yards per game.
Broncos Defense: Allowed 356.0 yards per game (254.4 passing / 101.6 rushing) and 24.9 points per game, while racking up 41 sacks and 17 interceptions.
Seahawks Defense: Allowed 273.6 yards per game (172.0 passing / 101.6 rushing) and 14.4 points per game, while racking up 44 sacks and 28 interceptions.
You have a great quarterback (Manning) that took an average defense and an otherwise average or below team and took them to the super bowl. You have an average quarterback (Wilson - say I'm wrong, show me the facts) that was carried by a great defense and a team that would likely still be great with another average or above quarterback, and took them to the super bowl...and won it. Now switch those quarterbacks; Wilson to Denver and Manning to Seattle. You have an average Denver team who may have not even made the playoffs and a Seattle team who I imagine would destroy...everything.
My point - there's no Manning in this draft at QB. There's no can't miss guy. There is though, a couple Russell Wilson's, Alex Smith's, and maybe an Andy Dalton or two. So why would we go out and spend a high pick (first or second round) on a guy out of "need" when we have a draft full of game managers and no more than MAYBE 1 emerging game changer? Our defense is fairly solid. We're missing just a few pieces. We had no standout sack artists, but we did rack up 41. We allowed 10 more rushing yards per game than Seattle, which isn't horrible, but we did allow 50 more passing yards and 11 more points per game, which is. Yeah, we're better than most, but that's not really gonna cut it unless we get THE quarterback.
- - - - - DEFENSE - - - - -
D Line: Leave as is. Maybe look at additions in late rounds.
OLB: Mingo is young (23). Sheard is young (24). For me, I like adding Mack and wouldn't be disappointed if we did, but I also like waiting to see what Pettine can do with these guys first. Drafted in the 1st an 2nd round, respectively, they both were highly sought at one time. I'd like to see how they do this year.
ILB: We brought in Dansby to start. I'll leave it at that. Robertson is a different story. There's an obvious weakness here that needs fixed. This is why I push Shazier at 26. The only knock on the guy is his size. For comparison, Robertson is 6'1'', 234lb after 3 years as a pro; Shazier is 6'1'', 237lb coming out of college, who is better in coverage, makes tackles, and has a faster 40 time by .3 seconds, a higher vertical by 7.5 inches. This pick screams at me. It screams day one starter, day one defensive improvement.
CB: Haden is solid. Enough said. We badly need someone across from him. With Pettine, we don't need a zone corner...we don't want a zone corner. This is from NFL.com's draft profile on Skrine (http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/buster-skrine?id=2495343
"Plays disciplined in zone coverage." Awesome, if we were the Bucs. We're not, and as you look at the CB class this year you see one trend, that 90-95% of these guys are made for the zone. That's why we need Justin Gilbert. This is from his NFL.com draft profile (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/justin-gilbert?id=2543473): "A big, fast, athletic, man-cover corner capable of locking down receivers." THAT, is exactly what we need.SS/FS: Whitner has the spot on lock. Gipson, however, does not. He's improved and I think can get it done this year, but could use some competition. I wouldn't take anyone early for this, and we shouldn't have to. One of the most underrated FS prospects can be had in the 4th or later, mostly because he's viewed as a corner. Dontae Johnson - 6'2'', 200lb, 4.45 40, 38.5 vert (http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/dontae-johnson?id=2543739). Played 7 games as a FS his final year. Has the speed to help corners who get burnt and the size and vert to assist on jump balls. I'd take him all day as a mid to late round pick.
Takeaway: We need a CB and ILB with a high pick and FS with a mid to late rounder.
- - - - - OFFENSE - - - - -
O Line: Obvious need here. Thomas is set at LT, and between young Pinkston and Gilkey, and Greco, Schwartz and McQuistan, we will be able to fill the LG and RG position. The need is a RT. Schwarts and McQuistan can assist here, but we badly need a new prospect in the mix. I can see a guy as early as the second and no lower than the third filling this role. To be real, I would like Greg Robinson, but we have more need than O Line in the first round. Morgan Moses and Joe Bitonio are guys I would look for in the 2nd, and Antonio Richardson is a guy I'd look at in the 3rd. All guys who could bring improvement to the line.
WR/TE: Gordon, Hawkins, and Cameron are locked in, with Benjamin and either Little or Burleson providing them rest. We need someone to start day one over Little, and I have the suspicion that the considered signing of Burleson indicates that this may be a position that falls to the 3rd round in this years draft, not because Burleson's our solution, but because we don't plan to sign a guy like Watkins or Evans. I think he's a patch for a year or two to see if our 3rd rounder works out and to sustain us until 2015-2016 where we grab a WR in the 1st or 2nd if not. I explained in the opening post of this thread; I am high on Donte Moncrief. He's 6'2'', 221lb, runs a 4.40 40, and has a 39.5in vertical. Per NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/donte-moncrief?id=2543614
He's a "Big, physically gifted “X” receiver with deep speed, “above-the-rim” potential and playmaking ability. Has a ceiling as a No. 1 or No. 2 in a vertical passing offense, and his best football is in front him." If the WR class thins before we get close to our first 3rd round pick, give up a 4th rounder and move up for this guy. We have 10 picks. I'd rather walk with 5-7 quality guys with a potential to start this or next year than to get 10, most of which will never see the field.RB: Between Tate and the supporting cast, we should be okay. Grab a guy in the 3rd round or later and see what happens. I like Simms and think he'll be there at our second 3rd round pick, but would take any player better or the BPA at the position when we decide to pull the trigger.
QB: Hoyer will likely start for us this season. I said it above, no need to restate in depth. I don't see "the guy" this year. I'll be happy if they rock the draft at the positions of need mentioned above and pick up depth at the position in hopes to land a solid backup and possibly win the lottery with an unexpected talent.
Takeaway: We need a QB, WR, OT, and RB, with many options as to which rounds to take these guys in.
- - - - - EDITED MOCK - - - - -
Push hard to trade down so someone can grab Mack, Watkins or a QB. For this scenario, I'm going with the Lions at 10 and they take Watkins to be Megatron's successor.
1(10) From Lions: Justin Gilbert, CB
1(26): Ryan Shazier, ILB
2(03): Derek Carr or Jimmy Garoppolo, QB
2(13) From Lions: Morgan Moses or Joe Bitonio, OT
3(07): Donte Moncrief, WR
3(19): Antonio Richardson, OT
4(06): Charles Simms, RB
4(27): Dakota Dozier, G
5(05): Jared Abbrederis, WR
6(04): Dontae Johnson, CB/FS
7(03): Keith Wenning or James Franklin, QB
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most mocks i've seen have the lions wanting gilbert....i mean when's the last time they had a decent secondary?
i think we'd have to trade with the vikes to get gilbert. my thinking is they would want one of the top 3 QBs, although i've seen some of these guys falling as low as 10.
i like the idea of trading down, but sometimes you have to take your pick where slotted.
believe me i like this edited mock a lot better than the original but still am iffy if we can make a deal with a trade down. in fact i think someone might trade up ahead of us. most people have the rams taking an OL, but recently i've seen them wanting watkins. and talk about a team needing multiple picks of need. i think if they trade down they still get their top rated OL with a WR ahead of us.
i'd pick evans (even though casserly said this is the deepest WR class in 15 years) trade up to get gilbert. that's my dream scenario. that leaves us having to get OL QB RB in later rounds with like 3 less picks.
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My favorite part about debating our draft strategy (knowing I have no say in any of it, but liking football too much to just sit quietly and wait for the draft) is listening to the case made for a QB, WR, and OT in the draft. The usual reasoning is that, heck, the defense was good last year, and they will be better with no improvement if we can just keep the offense on the field longer. For this, I have to agree. But, I look at it like this...
Take 2 teams from 2013, the Broncos and Seahawks.
Manning had 5,477 passing yards, 55:10 TD:INT ratio (5.5:1), a 68.3 completion percentage, and was sacked 18 times while averaging 342 yards per game.
Wilson had 3,357 passing yards, 26:9 TD:INT ratio (2.8:1), a 63.1 completion percentage, and was sacked 44 times while averaging 210 yards per game.
Broncos Defense: Allowed 356.0 yards per game (254.4 passing / 101.6 rushing) and 24.9 points per game, while racking up 41 sacks and 17 interceptions.
Seahawks Defense: Allowed 273.6 yards per game (172.0 passing / 101.6 rushing) and 14.4 points per game, while racking up 44 sacks and 28 interceptions.
You have a great quarterback (Manning) that took an average defense and an otherwise average or below team and took them to the super bowl. You have an average quarterback (Wilson - say I'm wrong, show me the facts) that was carried by a great defense and a team that would likely still be great with another average or above quarterback, and took them to the super bowl...and won it. Now switch those quarterbacks; Wilson to Denver and Manning to Seattle. You have an average Denver team who may have not even made the playoffs and a Seattle team who I imagine would destroy...everything.
My point - there's no Manning in this draft at QB. There's no can't miss guy. There is though, a couple Russell Wilson's, Alex Smith's, and maybe an Andy Dalton or two. So why would we go out and spend a high pick (first or second round) on a guy out of "need" when we have a draft full of game managers and no more than MAYBE 1 emerging game changer? Our defense is fairly solid. We're missing just a few pieces. We had no standout sack artists, but we did rack up 41. We allowed 10 more rushing yards per game than Seattle, which isn't horrible, but we did allow 50 more passing yards and 11 more points per game, which is. Yeah, we're better than most, but that's not really gonna cut it unless we get THE quarterback.
- - - - - DEFENSE - - - - -
D Line: Leave as is. Maybe look at additions in late rounds.
OLB: Mingo is young (23). Sheard is young (24). For me, I like adding Mack and wouldn't be disappointed if we did, but I also like waiting to see what Pettine can do with these guys first. Drafted in the 1st an 2nd round, respectively, they both were highly sought at one time. I'd like to see how they do this year.
ILB: We brought in Dansby to start. I'll leave it at that. Robertson is a different story. There's an obvious weakness here that needs fixed. This is why I push Shazier at 26. The only knock on the guy is his size. For comparison, Robertson is 6'1'', 234lb after 3 years as a pro; Shazier is 6'1'', 237lb coming out of college, who is better in coverage, makes tackles, and has a faster 40 time by .3 seconds, a higher vertical by 7.5 inches. This pick screams at me. It screams day one starter, day one defensive improvement.
CB: Haden is solid. Enough said. We badly need someone across from him. With Pettine, we don't need a zone corner...we don't want a zone corner. This is from NFL.com's draft profile on Skrine (http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/buster-skrine?id=2495343
"Plays disciplined in zone coverage." Awesome, if we were the Bucs. We're not, and as you look at the CB class this year you see one trend, that 90-95% of these guys are made for the zone. That's why we need Justin Gilbert. This is from his NFL.com draft profile (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/justin-gilbert?id=2543473): "A big, fast, athletic, man-cover corner capable of locking down receivers." THAT, is exactly what we need.SS/FS: Whitner has the spot on lock. Gipson, however, does not. He's improved and I think can get it done this year, but could use some competition. I wouldn't take anyone early for this, and we shouldn't have to. One of the most underrated FS prospects can be had in the 4th or later, mostly because he's viewed as a corner. Dontae Johnson - 6'2'', 200lb, 4.45 40, 38.5 vert (http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/dontae-johnson?id=2543739). Played 7 games as a FS his final year. Has the speed to help corners who get burnt and the size and vert to assist on jump balls. I'd take him all day as a mid to late round pick.
Takeaway: We need a CB and ILB with a high pick and FS with a mid to late rounder.
- - - - - OFFENSE - - - - -
O Line: Obvious need here. Thomas is set at LT, and between young Pinkston and Gilkey, and Greco, Schwartz and McQuistan, we will be able to fill the LG and RG position. The need is a RT. Schwarts and McQuistan can assist here, but we badly need a new prospect in the mix. I can see a guy as early as the second and no lower than the third filling this role. To be real, I would like Greg Robinson, but we have more need than O Line in the first round. Morgan Moses and Joe Bitonio are guys I would look for in the 2nd, and Antonio Richardson is a guy I'd look at in the 3rd. All guys who could bring improvement to the line.
WR/TE: Gordon, Hawkins, and Cameron are locked in, with Benjamin and either Little or Burleson providing them rest. We need someone to start day one over Little, and I have the suspicion that the considered signing of Burleson indicates that this may be a position that falls to the 3rd round in this years draft, not because Burleson's our solution, but because we don't plan to sign a guy like Watkins or Evans. I think he's a patch for a year or two to see if our 3rd rounder works out and to sustain us until 2015-2016 where we grab a WR in the 1st or 2nd if not. I explained in the opening post of this thread; I am high on Donte Moncrief. He's 6'2'', 221lb, runs a 4.40 40, and has a 39.5in vertical. Per NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/donte-moncrief?id=2543614
He's a "Big, physically gifted “X” receiver with deep speed, “above-the-rim” potential and playmaking ability. Has a ceiling as a No. 1 or No. 2 in a vertical passing offense, and his best football is in front him." If the WR class thins before we get close to our first 3rd round pick, give up a 4th rounder and move up for this guy. We have 10 picks. I'd rather walk with 5-7 quality guys with a potential to start this or next year than to get 10, most of which will never see the field.RB: Between Tate and the supporting cast, we should be okay. Grab a guy in the 3rd round or later and see what happens. I like Simms and think he'll be there at our second 3rd round pick, but would take any player better or the BPA at the position when we decide to pull the trigger.
QB: Hoyer will likely start for us this season. I said it above, no need to restate in depth. I don't see "the guy" this year. I'll be happy if they rock the draft at the positions of need mentioned above and pick up depth at the position in hopes to land a solid backup and possibly win the lottery with an unexpected talent.
Takeaway: We need a QB, WR, OT, and RB, with many options as to which rounds to take these guys in.
- - - - - EDITED MOCK - - - - -
Push hard to trade down so someone can grab Mack, Watkins or a QB. For this scenario, I'm going with the Lions at 10 and they take Watkins to be Megatron's successor.
1(10) From Lions: Justin Gilbert, CB
1(26): Ryan Shazier, ILB
2(03): Derek Carr or Jimmy Garoppolo, QB
2(13) From Lions: Morgan Moses or Joe Bitonio, OT
3(07): Donte Moncrief, WR
3(19): Antonio Richardson, OT
4(06): Charles Simms, RB
4(27): Dakota Dozier, G
5(05): Jared Abbrederis, WR
6(04): Dontae Johnson, CB/FS
7(03): Keith Wenning or James Franklin, QB
My favorite part about debating our draft strategy (knowing I have no say in any of it, but liking football too much to just sit quietly and wait for the draft) is listening to the case made for a QB, WR, and OT in the draft. The usual reasoning is that, heck, the defense was good last year, and they will be better with no improvement if we can just keep the offense on the field longer. For this, I have to agree. But, I look at it like this...
Take 2 teams from 2013, the Broncos and Seahawks.
Manning had 5,477 passing yards, 55:10 TD:INT ratio (5.5:1), a 68.3 completion percentage, and was sacked 18 times while averaging 342 yards per game.
Wilson had 3,357 passing yards, 26:9 TD:INT ratio (2.8:1), a 63.1 completion percentage, and was sacked 44 times while averaging 210 yards per game.
Broncos Defense: Allowed 356.0 yards per game (254.4 passing / 101.6 rushing) and 24.9 points per game, while racking up 41 sacks and 17 interceptions.
Seahawks Defense: Allowed 273.6 yards per game (172.0 passing / 101.6 rushing) and 14.4 points per game, while racking up 44 sacks and 28 interceptions.
You have a great quarterback (Manning) that took an average defense and an otherwise average or below team and took them to the super bowl. You have an average quarterback (Wilson - say I'm wrong, show me the facts) that was carried by a great defense and a team that would likely still be great with another average or above quarterback, and took them to the super bowl...and won it. Now switch those quarterbacks; Wilson to Denver and Manning to Seattle. You have an average Denver team who may have not even made the playoffs and a Seattle team who I imagine would destroy...everything.
My point - there's no Manning in this draft at QB. There's no can't miss guy. There is though, a couple Russell Wilson's, Alex Smith's, and maybe an Andy Dalton or two. So why would we go out and spend a high pick (first or second round) on a guy out of "need" when we have a draft full of game managers and no more than MAYBE 1 emerging game changer? Our defense is fairly solid. We're missing just a few pieces. We had no standout sack artists, but we did rack up 41. We allowed 10 more rushing yards per game than Seattle, which isn't horrible, but we did allow 50 more passing yards and 11 more points per game, which is. Yeah, we're better than most, but that's not really gonna cut it unless we get THE quarterback.
- - - - - DEFENSE - - - - -
D Line: Leave as is. Maybe look at additions in late rounds.
OLB: Mingo is young (23). Sheard is young (24). For me, I like adding Mack and wouldn't be disappointed if we did, but I also like waiting to see what Pettine can do with these guys first. Drafted in the 1st an 2nd round, respectively, they both were highly sought at one time. I'd like to see how they do this year.
ILB: We brought in Dansby to start. I'll leave it at that. Robertson is a different story. There's an obvious weakness here that needs fixed. This is why I push Shazier at 26. The only knock on the guy is his size. For comparison, Robertson is 6'1'', 234lb after 3 years as a pro; Shazier is 6'1'', 237lb coming out of college, who is better in coverage, makes tackles, and has a faster 40 time by .3 seconds, a higher vertical by 7.5 inches. This pick screams at me. It screams day one starter, day one defensive improvement.
CB: Haden is solid. Enough said. We badly need someone across from him. With Pettine, we don't need a zone corner...we don't want a zone corner. This is from NFL.com's draft profile on Skrine (http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/buster-skrine?id=2495343
"Plays disciplined in zone coverage." Awesome, if we were the Bucs. We're not, and as you look at the CB class this year you see one trend, that 90-95% of these guys are made for the zone. That's why we need Justin Gilbert. This is from his NFL.com draft profile (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/justin-gilbert?id=2543473 "A big, fast, athletic, man-cover corner capable of locking down receivers." THAT, is exactly what we need.SS/FS: Whitner has the spot on lock. Gipson, however, does not. He's improved and I think can get it done this year, but could use some competition. I wouldn't take anyone early for this, and we shouldn't have to. One of the most underrated FS prospects can be had in the 4th or later, mostly because he's viewed as a corner. Dontae Johnson - 6'2'', 200lb, 4.45 40, 38.5 vert (http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/dontae-johnson?id=2543739). Played 7 games as a FS his final year. Has the speed to help corners who get burnt and the size and vert to assist on jump balls. I'd take him all day as a mid to late round pick.
Takeaway: We need a CB and ILB with a high pick and FS with a mid to late rounder.
- - - - - OFFENSE - - - - -
O Line: Obvious need here. Thomas is set at LT, and between young Pinkston and Gilkey, and Greco, Schwartz and McQuistan, we will be able to fill the LG and RG position. The need is a RT. Schwarts and McQuistan can assist here, but we badly need a new prospect in the mix. I can see a guy as early as the second and no lower than the third filling this role. To be real, I would like Greg Robinson, but we have more need than O Line in the first round. Morgan Moses and Joe Bitonio are guys I would look for in the 2nd, and Antonio Richardson is a guy I'd look at in the 3rd. All guys who could bring improvement to the line.
WR/TE: Gordon, Hawkins, and Cameron are locked in, with Benjamin and either Little or Burleson providing them rest. We need someone to start day one over Little, and I have the suspicion that the considered signing of Burleson indicates that this may be a position that falls to the 3rd round in this years draft, not because Burleson's our solution, but because we don't plan to sign a guy like Watkins or Evans. I think he's a patch for a year or two to see if our 3rd rounder works out and to sustain us until 2015-2016 where we grab a WR in the 1st or 2nd if not. I explained in the opening post of this thread; I am high on Donte Moncrief. He's 6'2'', 221lb, runs a 4.40 40, and has a 39.5in vertical. Per NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/donte-moncrief?id=2543614
He's a "Big, physically gifted X receiver with deep speed, above-the-rim potential and playmaking ability. Has a ceiling as a No. 1 or No. 2 in a vertical passing offense, and his best football is in front him." If the WR class thins before we get close to our first 3rd round pick, give up a 4th rounder and move up for this guy. We have 10 picks. I'd rather walk with 5-7 quality guys with a potential to start this or next year than to get 10, most of which will never see the field.RB: Between Tate and the supporting cast, we should be okay. Grab a guy in the 3rd round or later and see what happens. I like Simms and think he'll be there at our second 3rd round pick, but would take any player better or the BPA at the position when we decide to pull the trigger.
QB: Hoyer will likely start for us this season. I said it above, no need to restate in depth. I don't see "the guy" this year. I'll be happy if they rock the draft at the positions of need mentioned above and pick up depth at the position in hopes to land a solid backup and possibly win the lottery with an unexpected talent.
Takeaway: We need a QB, WR, OT, and RB, with many options as to which rounds to take these guys in.
- - - - - EDITED MOCK - - - - -
Push hard to trade down so someone can grab Mack, Watkins or a QB. For this scenario, I'm going with the Lions at 10 and they take Watkins to be Megatron's successor.
1(10) From Lions: Justin Gilbert, CB
1(26): Ryan Shazier, ILB
2(03): Derek Carr or Jimmy Garoppolo, QB
2(13) From Lions: Morgan Moses or Joe Bitonio, OT
3(07): Donte Moncrief, WR
3(19): Antonio Richardson, OT
4(06): Charles Simms, RB
4(27): Dakota Dozier, G
5(05): Jared Abbrederis, WR
6(04): Dontae Johnson, CB/FS
7(03): Keith Wenning or James Franklin, QB
Your reasoning is fine, except for the fact that we literally know nothing about how these quarterbacks will perform in the NFL. Your "evaluation" of the draft class, claiming there's nothing more than any game managers is funny, considering as NFL scouts feel different.
From NFL.com, the very same website you've been using for your scouting profiles:
Bortles
"Big, athletic, ascending quarterback with enough arm talent and intangibles to develop into a franchise starter. Is not yet a finished product and scouts' opinions vary on his ceiling, but elements of Bortles skill set compare to some of the best in the game today, and his best football is ahead of him."
Bridgewater
"Compensates for a lack of elite arm talent and prototype measureables with the intangibles and football intelligence that could elevate the other 52 players around him. Instinctive passer with the laser-beam determination to become a Pro Bowl-caliber passer in the right system."
There's no Peyton Manning, sure. But there could be a Tom Brady. There probably will be an Aaron Rodgers. There probably will be a Dan Marino.
The excuse "there's no sure fire can't miss prospect" is played out and terribly misguided. You can never hit a home run if you're too chickenshit to take the bat off your shoulders.
There's holes that we have, and your assessment of needs is apt, but nearly all of them can be filled with quality prospects with picks after our #4.
You cite Seattle as an example so, in keeping with that theme, I will to. Keep in mind, this is from memory:
Seattle has one 1st round pick in their secondary and one in their front seven. They also have one second round pick in their linebacking corps.
The Browns have two 1st round picks in their secondary and one in their front seven. The rest of their linebackers are second round picks.
Seattle didn't just build a stellar defense by spending a bunch of high picks, they utilized the talents of the players they had. Same goes for Mike Pettine. If Pettine has a player with a certain skill, you can be sure it will be used plenty.
Further, saying Wilson is an average quarterback who was carried by his defense is awfully silly, considering as he took a 7-9 team to 11-5 in one year and then to a Super Bowl victory the next year and the only defensive players from the Super Bowl not on the roster in 2011 were Bruce Irvin and Bobby Wagner.
Just because a QB doesn't throw for 3,500 yards and 40 TD's doesn't mean he's an average quarterback, but that's an argument for a different day.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
My favorite part about debating our draft strategy (knowing I have no say in any of it, but liking football too much to just sit quietly and wait for the draft) is listening to the case made for a QB, WR, and OT in the draft. The usual reasoning is that, heck, the defense was good last year, and they will be better with no improvement if we can just keep the offense on the field longer. For this, I have to agree. But, I look at it like this...
Take 2 teams from 2013, the Broncos and Seahawks.
Manning had 5,477 passing yards, 55:10 TD:INT ratio (5.5:1), a 68.3 completion percentage, and was sacked 18 times while averaging 342 yards per game.
Wilson had 3,357 passing yards, 26:9 TD:INT ratio (2.8:1), a 63.1 completion percentage, and was sacked 44 times while averaging 210 yards per game.
Broncos Defense: Allowed 356.0 yards per game (254.4 passing / 101.6 rushing) and 24.9 points per game, while racking up 41 sacks and 17 interceptions.
Seahawks Defense: Allowed 273.6 yards per game (172.0 passing / 101.6 rushing) and 14.4 points per game, while racking up 44 sacks and 28 interceptions.
You have a great quarterback (Manning) that took an average defense and an otherwise average or below team and took them to the super bowl. You have an average quarterback (Wilson - say I'm wrong, show me the facts) that was carried by a great defense and a team that would likely still be great with another average or above quarterback, and took them to the super bowl...and won it. Now switch those quarterbacks; Wilson to Denver and Manning to Seattle. You have an average Denver team who may have not even made the playoffs and a Seattle team who I imagine would destroy...everything.
My point - there's no Manning in this draft at QB. There's no can't miss guy. There is though, a couple Russell Wilson's, Alex Smith's, and maybe an Andy Dalton or two. So why would we go out and spend a high pick (first or second round) on a guy out of "need" when we have a draft full of game managers and no more than MAYBE 1 emerging game changer? Our defense is fairly solid. We're missing just a few pieces. We had no standout sack artists, but we did rack up 41. We allowed 10 more rushing yards per game than Seattle, which isn't horrible, but we did allow 50 more passing yards and 11 more points per game, which is. Yeah, we're better than most, but that's not really gonna cut it unless we get THE quarterback.
- - - - - DEFENSE - - - - -
D Line: Leave as is. Maybe look at additions in late rounds.
OLB: Mingo is young (23). Sheard is young (24). For me, I like adding Mack and wouldn't be disappointed if we did, but I also like waiting to see what Pettine can do with these guys first. Drafted in the 1st an 2nd round, respectively, they both were highly sought at one time. I'd like to see how they do this year.
ILB: We brought in Dansby to start. I'll leave it at that. Robertson is a different story. There's an obvious weakness here that needs fixed. This is why I push Shazier at 26. The only knock on the guy is his size. For comparison, Robertson is 6'1'', 234lb after 3 years as a pro; Shazier is 6'1'', 237lb coming out of college, who is better in coverage, makes tackles, and has a faster 40 time by .3 seconds, a higher vertical by 7.5 inches. This pick screams at me. It screams day one starter, day one defensive improvement.
CB: Haden is solid. Enough said. We badly need someone across from him. With Pettine, we don't need a zone corner...we don't want a zone corner. This is from NFL.com's draft profile on Skrine (http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/buster-skrine?id=2495343
"Plays disciplined in zone coverage." Awesome, if we were the Bucs. We're not, and as you look at the CB class this year you see one trend, that 90-95% of these guys are made for the zone. That's why we need Justin Gilbert. This is from his NFL.com draft profile (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/justin-gilbert?id=2543473 "A big, fast, athletic, man-cover corner capable of locking down receivers." THAT, is exactly what we need.SS/FS: Whitner has the spot on lock. Gipson, however, does not. He's improved and I think can get it done this year, but could use some competition. I wouldn't take anyone early for this, and we shouldn't have to. One of the most underrated FS prospects can be had in the 4th or later, mostly because he's viewed as a corner. Dontae Johnson - 6'2'', 200lb, 4.45 40, 38.5 vert (http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/dontae-johnson?id=2543739). Played 7 games as a FS his final year. Has the speed to help corners who get burnt and the size and vert to assist on jump balls. I'd take him all day as a mid to late round pick.
Takeaway: We need a CB and ILB with a high pick and FS with a mid to late rounder.
- - - - - OFFENSE - - - - -
O Line: Obvious need here. Thomas is set at LT, and between young Pinkston and Gilkey, and Greco, Schwartz and McQuistan, we will be able to fill the LG and RG position. The need is a RT. Schwarts and McQuistan can assist here, but we badly need a new prospect in the mix. I can see a guy as early as the second and no lower than the third filling this role. To be real, I would like Greg Robinson, but we have more need than O Line in the first round. Morgan Moses and Joe Bitonio are guys I would look for in the 2nd, and Antonio Richardson is a guy I'd look at in the 3rd. All guys who could bring improvement to the line.
WR/TE: Gordon, Hawkins, and Cameron are locked in, with Benjamin and either Little or Burleson providing them rest. We need someone to start day one over Little, and I have the suspicion that the considered signing of Burleson indicates that this may be a position that falls to the 3rd round in this years draft, not because Burleson's our solution, but because we don't plan to sign a guy like Watkins or Evans. I think he's a patch for a year or two to see if our 3rd rounder works out and to sustain us until 2015-2016 where we grab a WR in the 1st or 2nd if not. I explained in the opening post of this thread; I am high on Donte Moncrief. He's 6'2'', 221lb, runs a 4.40 40, and has a 39.5in vertical. Per NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/donte-moncrief?id=2543614
He's a "Big, physically gifted X receiver with deep speed, above-the-rim potential and playmaking ability. Has a ceiling as a No. 1 or No. 2 in a vertical passing offense, and his best football is in front him." If the WR class thins before we get close to our first 3rd round pick, give up a 4th rounder and move up for this guy. We have 10 picks. I'd rather walk with 5-7 quality guys with a potential to start this or next year than to get 10, most of which will never see the field.RB: Between Tate and the supporting cast, we should be okay. Grab a guy in the 3rd round or later and see what happens. I like Simms and think he'll be there at our second 3rd round pick, but would take any player better or the BPA at the position when we decide to pull the trigger.
QB: Hoyer will likely start for us this season. I said it above, no need to restate in depth. I don't see "the guy" this year. I'll be happy if they rock the draft at the positions of need mentioned above and pick up depth at the position in hopes to land a solid backup and possibly win the lottery with an unexpected talent.
Takeaway: We need a QB, WR, OT, and RB, with many options as to which rounds to take these guys in.
- - - - - EDITED MOCK - - - - -
Push hard to trade down so someone can grab Mack, Watkins or a QB. For this scenario, I'm going with the Lions at 10 and they take Watkins to be Megatron's successor.
1(10) From Lions: Justin Gilbert, CB
1(26): Ryan Shazier, ILB
2(03): Derek Carr or Jimmy Garoppolo, QB
2(13) From Lions: Morgan Moses or Joe Bitonio, OT
3(07): Donte Moncrief, WR
3(19): Antonio Richardson, OT
4(06): Charles Simms, RB
4(27): Dakota Dozier, G
5(05): Jared Abbrederis, WR
6(04): Dontae Johnson, CB/FS
7(03): Keith Wenning or James Franklin, QB
Your reasoning is fine, except for the fact that we literally know nothing about how these quarterbacks will perform in the NFL. Your "evaluation" of the draft class, claiming there's nothing more than any game managers is funny, considering as NFL scouts feel different.
From NFL.com, the very same website you've been using for your scouting profiles:
Bortles
"Big, athletic, ascending quarterback with enough arm talent and intangibles to develop into a franchise starter. Is not yet a finished product and scouts' opinions vary on his ceiling, but elements of Bortles skill set compare to some of the best in the game today, and his best football is ahead of him."
Bridgewater
"Compensates for a lack of elite arm talent and prototype measureables with the intangibles and football intelligence that could elevate the other 52 players around him. Instinctive passer with the laser-beam determination to become a Pro Bowl-caliber passer in the right system."
There's no Peyton Manning, sure. But there could be a Tom Brady. There probably will be an Aaron Rodgers. There probably will be a Dan Marino.
The excuse "there's no sure fire can't miss prospect" is played out and terribly misguided. You can never hit a home run if you're too chickenshit to take the bat off your shoulders.
There's holes that we have, and your assessment of needs is apt, but nearly all of them can be filled with quality prospects with picks after our #4.
You cite Seattle as an example so, in keeping with that theme, I will to. Keep in mind, this is from memory:
Seattle has one 1st round pick in their secondary and one in their front seven. They also have one second round pick in their linebacking corps.
The Browns have two 1st round picks in their secondary and one in their front seven. The rest of their linebackers are second round picks.
Seattle didn't just build a stellar defense by spending a bunch of high picks, they utilized the talents of the players they had. Same goes for Mike Pettine. If Pettine has a player with a certain skill, you can be sure it will be used plenty.
Further, saying Wilson is an average quarterback who was carried by his defense is awfully silly, considering as he took a 7-9 team to 11-5 in one year and then to a Super Bowl victory the next year and the only defensive players from the Super Bowl not on the roster in 2011 were Bruce Irvin and Bobby Wagner.
Just because a QB doesn't throw for 3,500 yards and 40 TD's doesn't mean he's an average quarterback, but that's an argument for a different day.
There's no Peyton Manning, sure. But there could be a Tom Brady. There probably will be an Aaron Rodgers. There probably will be a Dan Marino.
The excuse "there's no sure fire can't miss prospect" is played out and terribly misguided. You can never hit a home run if you're too chickenshit to take the bat off your shoulders.
now that is a bold prediction. can you tell us all who will be the brady, who will be the rodgers and marino from this class?
i'm willing to bet that 2 out of the 3 'top QB picks' are doing a colt mccoy in 3 years. so you're thinking there are a couple of sleepers in the draft that will just blow up one day when given a chance and become a hall-of-famer?
i don't think this org has been chicken-shit at all with QB picks. in fact haven't we made more than any org since our re-inception in '99? so throw that statement right out the window. didn't we have a HC in palmer that was a QB guru who picked (prob our best QB since '99) in couch but he didn't last because of no protection? then go on and on and it was always some other piece of the puzzle (running game, no WRs, no run stopping capabilities, bad back-end defense) that hobbled any QB to step on the field. and then of course the savior of cleveland (holmgren) who came in and everybody bought his SHIT and made 2 of the worse QB picks in the history of the game?
so it's not like we don't pick QBs, it's either we pick the wrong ones or there isn't enough supporting cast around them for them to succeed.
well if mack leaves, there will be a big gaping hole in the center of our OL to add to an already weak right side. what do you say let's draft the next tim couch and have him get planted every 2 plays. if it's bridgewater or manziel their dead. bortles would last a couple of years.
everyone better rethink their mocks if mack walks.
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There's no Peyton Manning, sure. But there could be a Tom Brady. There probably will be an Aaron Rodgers. There probably will be a Dan Marino.
The excuse "there's no sure fire can't miss prospect" is played out and terribly misguided. You can never hit a home run if you're too chickenshit to take the bat off your shoulders.
now that is a bold prediction. can you tell us all who will be the brady, who will be the rodgers and marino from this class?
i'm willing to bet that 2 out of the 3 'top QB picks' are doing a colt mccoy in 3 years. so you're thinking there are a couple of sleepers in the draft that will just blow up one day when given a chance and become a hall-of-famer?
i don't think this org has been chicken-shit at all with QB picks. in fact haven't we made more than any org since our re-inception in '99? so throw that statement right out the window. didn't we have a HC in palmer that was a QB guru who picked (prob our best QB since '99) in couch but he didn't last because of no protection? then go on and on and it was always some other piece of the puzzle (running game, no WRs, no run stopping capabilities, bad back-end defense) that hobbled any QB to step on the field. and then of course the savior of cleveland (holmgren) who came in and everybody bought his SHIT and made 2 of the worse QB picks in the history of the game?
so it's not like we don't pick QBs, it's either we pick the wrong ones or there isn't enough supporting cast around them for them to succeed.
well if mack leaves, there will be a big gaping hole in the center of our OL to add to an already weak right side. what do you say let's draft the next tim couch and have him get planted every 2 plays. if it's bridgewater or manziel their dead. bortles would last a couple of years.
everyone better rethink their mocks if mack walks.
well if mack leaves, there will be a big gaping hole in the center of our OL to add to an already weak right side. what do you say let's draft the next tim couch and have him get planted every 2 plays. if it's bridgewater or manziel their dead. bortles would last a couple of years.
everyone better rethink their mocks if mack walks.
When's the last time we went through a season with one QB. We've been through 3 or 4 a year the last couple years. With two pro bowlers on the line. Mack is way way way overrated. He's great at getting to the second level an getting a body on LB's but against top level nose tackles lined up head to head he gets man handled. Let him walk
1st Ezekiel Ansah, DE, BYU 3rd Darius Slay, CB, Mississippi State4th Landry Jones, QB, Oklahoma5th Earl Wolff, S, N.C. State6th Lucas Reed, TE, New Mexico -
My favorite part about debating our draft strategy (knowing I have no say in any of it, but liking football too much to just sit quietly and wait for the draft) is listening to the case made for a QB, WR, and OT in the draft. The usual reasoning is that, heck, the defense was good last year, and they will be better with no improvement if we can just keep the offense on the field longer. For this, I have to agree. But, I look at it like this...
Take 2 teams from 2013, the Broncos and Seahawks.
Manning had 5,477 passing yards, 55:10 TD:INT ratio (5.5:1), a 68.3 completion percentage, and was sacked 18 times while averaging 342 yards per game.
Wilson had 3,357 passing yards, 26:9 TD:INT ratio (2.8:1), a 63.1 completion percentage, and was sacked 44 times while averaging 210 yards per game.
Broncos Defense: Allowed 356.0 yards per game (254.4 passing / 101.6 rushing) and 24.9 points per game, while racking up 41 sacks and 17 interceptions.
Seahawks Defense: Allowed 273.6 yards per game (172.0 passing / 101.6 rushing) and 14.4 points per game, while racking up 44 sacks and 28 interceptions.
You have a great quarterback (Manning) that took an average defense and an otherwise average or below team and took them to the super bowl. You have an average quarterback (Wilson - say I'm wrong, show me the facts) that was carried by a great defense and a team that would likely still be great with another average or above quarterback, and took them to the super bowl...and won it. Now switch those quarterbacks; Wilson to Denver and Manning to Seattle. You have an average Denver team who may have not even made the playoffs and a Seattle team who I imagine would destroy...everything.
My point - there's no Manning in this draft at QB. There's no can't miss guy. There is though, a couple Russell Wilson's, Alex Smith's, and maybe an Andy Dalton or two. So why would we go out and spend a high pick (first or second round) on a guy out of "need" when we have a draft full of game managers and no more than MAYBE 1 emerging game changer? Our defense is fairly solid. We're missing just a few pieces. We had no standout sack artists, but we did rack up 41. We allowed 10 more rushing yards per game than Seattle, which isn't horrible, but we did allow 50 more passing yards and 11 more points per game, which is. Yeah, we're better than most, but that's not really gonna cut it unless we get THE quarterback.
- - - - - DEFENSE - - - - -
D Line: Leave as is. Maybe look at additions in late rounds.
OLB: Mingo is young (23). Sheard is young (24). For me, I like adding Mack and wouldn't be disappointed if we did, but I also like waiting to see what Pettine can do with these guys first. Drafted in the 1st an 2nd round, respectively, they both were highly sought at one time. I'd like to see how they do this year.
ILB: We brought in Dansby to start. I'll leave it at that. Robertson is a different story. There's an obvious weakness here that needs fixed. This is why I push Shazier at 26. The only knock on the guy is his size. For comparison, Robertson is 6'1'', 234lb after 3 years as a pro; Shazier is 6'1'', 237lb coming out of college, who is better in coverage, makes tackles, and has a faster 40 time by .3 seconds, a higher vertical by 7.5 inches. This pick screams at me. It screams day one starter, day one defensive improvement.
CB: Haden is solid. Enough said. We badly need someone across from him. With Pettine, we don't need a zone corner...we don't want a zone corner. This is from NFL.com's draft profile on Skrine (http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/buster-skrine?id=2495343
"Plays disciplined in zone coverage." Awesome, if we were the Bucs. We're not, and as you look at the CB class this year you see one trend, that 90-95% of these guys are made for the zone. That's why we need Justin Gilbert. This is from his NFL.com draft profile (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/justin-gilbert?id=2543473 "A big, fast, athletic, man-cover corner capable of locking down receivers." THAT, is exactly what we need.SS/FS: Whitner has the spot on lock. Gipson, however, does not. He's improved and I think can get it done this year, but could use some competition. I wouldn't take anyone early for this, and we shouldn't have to. One of the most underrated FS prospects can be had in the 4th or later, mostly because he's viewed as a corner. Dontae Johnson - 6'2'', 200lb, 4.45 40, 38.5 vert (http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/dontae-johnson?id=2543739). Played 7 games as a FS his final year. Has the speed to help corners who get burnt and the size and vert to assist on jump balls. I'd take him all day as a mid to late round pick.
Takeaway: We need a CB and ILB with a high pick and FS with a mid to late rounder.
- - - - - OFFENSE - - - - -
O Line: Obvious need here. Thomas is set at LT, and between young Pinkston and Gilkey, and Greco, Schwartz and McQuistan, we will be able to fill the LG and RG position. The need is a RT. Schwarts and McQuistan can assist here, but we badly need a new prospect in the mix. I can see a guy as early as the second and no lower than the third filling this role. To be real, I would like Greg Robinson, but we have more need than O Line in the first round. Morgan Moses and Joe Bitonio are guys I would look for in the 2nd, and Antonio Richardson is a guy I'd look at in the 3rd. All guys who could bring improvement to the line.
WR/TE: Gordon, Hawkins, and Cameron are locked in, with Benjamin and either Little or Burleson providing them rest. We need someone to start day one over Little, and I have the suspicion that the considered signing of Burleson indicates that this may be a position that falls to the 3rd round in this years draft, not because Burleson's our solution, but because we don't plan to sign a guy like Watkins or Evans. I think he's a patch for a year or two to see if our 3rd rounder works out and to sustain us until 2015-2016 where we grab a WR in the 1st or 2nd if not. I explained in the opening post of this thread; I am high on Donte Moncrief. He's 6'2'', 221lb, runs a 4.40 40, and has a 39.5in vertical. Per NFL.com (http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/donte-moncrief?id=2543614
He's a "Big, physically gifted X receiver with deep speed, above-the-rim potential and playmaking ability. Has a ceiling as a No. 1 or No. 2 in a vertical passing offense, and his best football is in front him." If the WR class thins before we get close to our first 3rd round pick, give up a 4th rounder and move up for this guy. We have 10 picks. I'd rather walk with 5-7 quality guys with a potential to start this or next year than to get 10, most of which will never see the field.RB: Between Tate and the supporting cast, we should be okay. Grab a guy in the 3rd round or later and see what happens. I like Simms and think he'll be there at our second 3rd round pick, but would take any player better or the BPA at the position when we decide to pull the trigger.
QB: Hoyer will likely start for us this season. I said it above, no need to restate in depth. I don't see "the guy" this year. I'll be happy if they rock the draft at the positions of need mentioned above and pick up depth at the position in hopes to land a solid backup and possibly win the lottery with an unexpected talent.
Takeaway: We need a QB, WR, OT, and RB, with many options as to which rounds to take these guys in.
- - - - - EDITED MOCK - - - - -
Push hard to trade down so someone can grab Mack, Watkins or a QB. For this scenario, I'm going with the Lions at 10 and they take Watkins to be Megatron's successor.
1(10) From Lions: Justin Gilbert, CB
1(26): Ryan Shazier, ILB
2(03): Derek Carr or Jimmy Garoppolo, QB
2(13) From Lions: Morgan Moses or Joe Bitonio, OT
3(07): Donte Moncrief, WR
3(19): Antonio Richardson, OT
4(06): Charles Simms, RB
4(27): Dakota Dozier, G
5(05): Jared Abbrederis, WR
6(04): Dontae Johnson, CB/FS
7(03): Keith Wenning or James Franklin, QB
Your reasoning is fine, except for the fact that we literally know nothing about how these quarterbacks will perform in the NFL. Your "evaluation" of the draft class, claiming there's nothing more than any game managers is funny, considering as NFL scouts feel different.
From NFL.com, the very same website you've been using for your scouting profiles:
Bortles
"Big, athletic, ascending quarterback with enough arm talent and intangibles to develop into a franchise starter. Is not yet a finished product and scouts' opinions vary on his ceiling, but elements of Bortles skill set compare to some of the best in the game today, and his best football is ahead of him."
Bridgewater
"Compensates for a lack of elite arm talent and prototype measureables with the intangibles and football intelligence that could elevate the other 52 players around him. Instinctive passer with the laser-beam determination to become a Pro Bowl-caliber passer in the right system."
There's no Peyton Manning, sure. But there could be a Tom Brady. There probably will be an Aaron Rodgers. There probably will be a Dan Marino.
The excuse "there's no sure fire can't miss prospect" is played out and terribly misguided. You can never hit a home run if you're too chickenshit to take the bat off your shoulders.
There's holes that we have, and your assessment of needs is apt, but nearly all of them can be filled with quality prospects with picks after our #4.
You cite Seattle as an example so, in keeping with that theme, I will to. Keep in mind, this is from memory:
Seattle has one 1st round pick in their secondary and one in their front seven. They also have one second round pick in their linebacking corps.
The Browns have two 1st round picks in their secondary and one in their front seven. The rest of their linebackers are second round picks.
Seattle didn't just build a stellar defense by spending a bunch of high picks, they utilized the talents of the players they had. Same goes for Mike Pettine. If Pettine has a player with a certain skill, you can be sure it will be used plenty.
Further, saying Wilson is an average quarterback who was carried by his defense is awfully silly, considering as he took a 7-9 team to 11-5 in one year and then to a Super Bowl victory the next year and the only defensive players from the Super Bowl not on the roster in 2011 were Bruce Irvin and Bobby Wagner.
Just because a QB doesn't throw for 3,500 yards and 40 TD's doesn't mean he's an average quarterback, but that's an argument for a different day.
Your reasoning is fine, except for the fact that we literally know nothing about how these quarterbacks will perform in the NFL. Your "evaluation" of the draft class, claiming there's nothing more than any game managers is funny, considering as NFL scouts feel different.
From NFL.com, the very same website you've been using for your scouting profiles:
Bortles
"Big, athletic, ascending quarterback with enough arm talent and intangibles to develop into a franchise starter. Is not yet a finished product and scouts' opinions vary on his ceiling, but elements of Bortles skill set compare to some of the best in the game today, and his best football is ahead of him."
Bridgewater
"Compensates for a lack of elite arm talent and prototype measureables with the intangibles and football intelligence that could elevate the other 52 players around him. Instinctive passer with the laser-beam determination to become a Pro Bowl-caliber passer in the right system."
There's no Peyton Manning, sure. But there could be a Tom Brady. There probably will be an Aaron Rodgers. There probably will be a Dan Marino.
The excuse "there's no sure fire can't miss prospect" is played out and terribly misguided. You can never hit a home run if you're too chickenshit to take the bat off your shoulders.
There's holes that we have, and your assessment of needs is apt, but nearly all of them can be filled with quality prospects with picks after our #4.
You cite Seattle as an example so, in keeping with that theme, I will to. Keep in mind, this is from memory:
Seattle has one 1st round pick in their secondary and one in their front seven. They also have one second round pick in their linebacking corps.
The Browns have two 1st round picks in their secondary and one in their front seven. The rest of their linebackers are second round picks.
Seattle didn't just build a stellar defense by spending a bunch of high picks, they utilized the talents of the players they had. Same goes for Mike Pettine. If Pettine has a player with a certain skill, you can be sure it will be used plenty.
Further, saying Wilson is an average quarterback who was carried by his defense is awfully silly, considering as he took a 7-9 team to 11-5 in one year and then to a Super Bowl victory the next year and the only defensive players from the Super Bowl not on the roster in 2011 were Bruce Irvin and Bobby Wagner.
Just because a QB doesn't throw for 3,500 yards and 40 TD's doesn't mean he's an average quarterback, but that's an argument for a different day.
You're right on a QB not having to throw for 3,500 yards and 40 TDs to be elite. I have different criteria for that, and you're right, that's a conversation for a different day, and likely a good one (if we have it, I'll be dragging Kaepernick in as well). You're also right about my comparisons of QBs in this draft to NFL QBs today. Those are parallels that you can't make at this point in time, and I shouldn't have. I think miktoxic hit on your Brady/Rodgers/Marino comment well. I agree.
Before the end of the regular season I was all for Bridewater. By the senior bowl I was all for Bortles. Then, by my 50th mock viewed and NFL network criticism of the top prospects, stating that a team would be reaching at the top in a class that shows no true dominance, I began looking at how better we could use our top picks. You plug guys in (this is why I mock, why I put it out there for criticism, defend it until I’m proven wrong, and then remock), feel great that Cleveland will be landing Watkins and a QB and the offensive weapons look insane, then you realize you’re up shit’s creek with other positions; settling for guys who will struggle to start and positively impact our win column. Finally, you reach down between your legs and pull your head out of your ass and realize that we have a chance to land a franchise cornerback, a franchise ILB, likely a franchise OT, and a receiver with qualities that have the potential to make him a future no. 1, all while landing a top 5 QB.
I’ll venture to say taking a QB at 4 may be more chickenshit than passing on one, unless they feel the guy is their guy. With all eyes on Clevelands QB situation, it would take some balls to stack the other side of the ball, even if it’s the correct move. If seen Bortles, Bridgewater and Manziel projected at pick one in various reputable mocks, I’ve also seen Bridgewater fall past 4, Bridgewater to 26, and heard some experts say they wouldn’t take Manziel in the first 3 rounds. There’s reason for so much fluctuation.
And I'll end with this. There's been some good debate here so far. I was part of a small board prior to finding this one. Glad you all have enough backbone to stand some ground when it comes to your opinion here. Didn't get enough of that there.
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well if mack leaves, there will be a big gaping hole in the center of our OL to add to an already weak right side. what do you say let's draft the next tim couch and have him get planted every 2 plays. if it's bridgewater or manziel their dead. bortles would last a couple of years.
everyone better rethink their mocks if mack walks.
When's the last time we went through a season with one QB. We've been through 3 or 4 a year the last couple years. With two pro bowlers on the line. Mack is way way way overrated. He's great at getting to the second level an getting a body on LB's but against top level nose tackles lined up head to head he gets man handled. Let him walk
When's the last time we went through a season with one QB. We've been through 3 or 4 a year the last couple years. With two pro bowlers on the line. Mack is way way way overrated. He's great at getting to the second level an getting a body on LB's but against top level nose tackles lined up head to head he gets man handled. Let him walk
I don't know if I fully agree that Mack is overrated, but can get on board a bit. To me he's over paid (could go hand in hand with overrated). I have the feeling we match whatever offer comes from this. I couldn't see devastating a line like that prior to going into a season that could actually result in a playoff berth. He doesn't deserve 10mil, and he definitely won't deserve anything over than, but we may be stuck eating that premium to enable the build currently in process.
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well if mack leaves, there will be a big gaping hole in the center of our OL to add to an already weak right side. what do you say let's draft the next tim couch and have him get planted every 2 plays. if it's bridgewater or manziel their dead. bortles would last a couple of years.
everyone better rethink their mocks if mack walks.
When's the last time we went through a season with one QB. We've been through 3 or 4 a year the last couple years. With two pro bowlers on the line. Mack is way way way overrated. He's great at getting to the second level an getting a body on LB's but against top level nose tackles lined up head to head he gets man handled. Let him walk
When's the last time we went through a season with one QB. We've been through 3 or 4 a year the last couple years. With two pro bowlers on the line. Mack is way way way overrated. He's great at getting to the second level an getting a body on LB's but against top level nose tackles lined up head to head he gets man handled. Let him walk
oh i'm not saying keep mack at all. just reread what i said.
i'm saying there's no replacement for him on our roster and our plans in the draft would have to change at LEAST one pick. a center and an OL. when before it would just be one OL.
unless there's some stop gap FA out there that could do a half decent job..........
i say trade little, cooper and skrine for mangold and bring him back home. RIGHT NOW.
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Your reasoning is fine, except for the fact that we literally know nothing about how these quarterbacks will perform in the NFL. Your "evaluation" of the draft class, claiming there's nothing more than any game managers is funny, considering as NFL scouts feel different.
From NFL.com, the very same website you've been using for your scouting profiles:
Bortles
"Big, athletic, ascending quarterback with enough arm talent and intangibles to develop into a franchise starter. Is not yet a finished product and scouts' opinions vary on his ceiling, but elements of Bortles skill set compare to some of the best in the game today, and his best football is ahead of him."
Bridgewater
"Compensates for a lack of elite arm talent and prototype measureables with the intangibles and football intelligence that could elevate the other 52 players around him. Instinctive passer with the laser-beam determination to become a Pro Bowl-caliber passer in the right system."
There's no Peyton Manning, sure. But there could be a Tom Brady. There probably will be an Aaron Rodgers. There probably will be a Dan Marino.
The excuse "there's no sure fire can't miss prospect" is played out and terribly misguided. You can never hit a home run if you're too chickenshit to take the bat off your shoulders.
There's holes that we have, and your assessment of needs is apt, but nearly all of them can be filled with quality prospects with picks after our #4.
You cite Seattle as an example so, in keeping with that theme, I will to. Keep in mind, this is from memory:
Seattle has one 1st round pick in their secondary and one in their front seven. They also have one second round pick in their linebacking corps.
The Browns have two 1st round picks in their secondary and one in their front seven. The rest of their linebackers are second round picks.
Seattle didn't just build a stellar defense by spending a bunch of high picks, they utilized the talents of the players they had. Same goes for Mike Pettine. If Pettine has a player with a certain skill, you can be sure it will be used plenty.
Further, saying Wilson is an average quarterback who was carried by his defense is awfully silly, considering as he took a 7-9 team to 11-5 in one year and then to a Super Bowl victory the next year and the only defensive players from the Super Bowl not on the roster in 2011 were Bruce Irvin and Bobby Wagner.
Just because a QB doesn't throw for 3,500 yards and 40 TD's doesn't mean he's an average quarterback, but that's an argument for a different day.
You're right on a QB not having to throw for 3,500 yards and 40 TDs to be elite. I have different criteria for that, and you're right, that's a conversation for a different day, and likely a good one (if we have it, I'll be dragging Kaepernick in as well). You're also right about my comparisons of QBs in this draft to NFL QBs today. Those are parallels that you can't make at this point in time, and I shouldn't have. I think miktoxic hit on your Brady/Rodgers/Marino comment well. I agree.
Before the end of the regular season I was all for Bridewater. By the senior bowl I was all for Bortles. Then, by my 50th mock viewed and NFL network criticism of the top prospects, stating that a team would be reaching at the top in a class that shows no true dominance, I began looking at how better we could use our top picks. You plug guys in (this is why I mock, why I put it out there for criticism, defend it until I’m proven wrong, and then remock), feel great that Cleveland will be landing Watkins and a QB and the offensive weapons look insane, then you realize you’re up shit’s creek with other positions; settling for guys who will struggle to start and positively impact our win column. Finally, you reach down between your legs and pull your head out of your ass and realize that we have a chance to land a franchise cornerback, a franchise ILB, likely a franchise OT, and a receiver with qualities that have the potential to make him a future no. 1, all while landing a top 5 QB.
I’ll venture to say taking a QB at 4 may be more chickenshit than passing on one, unless they feel the guy is their guy. With all eyes on Clevelands QB situation, it would take some balls to stack the other side of the ball, even if it’s the correct move. If seen Bortles, Bridgewater and Manziel projected at pick one in various reputable mocks, I’ve also seen Bridgewater fall past 4, Bridgewater to 26, and heard some experts say they wouldn’t take Manziel in the first 3 rounds. There’s reason for so much fluctuation.
And I'll end with this. There's been some good debate here so far. I was part of a small board prior to finding this one. Glad you all have enough backbone to stand some ground when it comes to your opinion here. Didn't get enough of that there.
You're right on a QB not having to throw for 3,500 yards and 40 TDs to be elite. I have different criteria for that, and you're right, that's a conversation for a different day, and likely a good one (if we have it, I'll be dragging Kaepernick in as well). You're also right about my comparisons of QBs in this draft to NFL QBs today. Those are parallels that you can't make at this point in time, and I shouldn't have. I think miktoxic hit on your Brady/Rodgers/Marino comment well. I agree.
Before the end of the regular season I was all for Bridewater. By the senior bowl I was all for Bortles. Then, by my 50th mock viewed and NFL network criticism of the top prospects, stating that a team would be reaching at the top in a class that shows no true dominance, I began looking at how better we could use our top picks. You plug guys in (this is why I mock, why I put it out there for criticism, defend it until Im proven wrong, and then remock), feel great that Cleveland will be landing Watkins and a QB and the offensive weapons look insane, then you realize youre up shits creek with other positions; settling for guys who will struggle to start and positively impact our win column. Finally, you reach down between your legs and pull your head out of your ass and realize that we have a chance to land a franchise cornerback, a franchise ILB, likely a franchise OT, and a receiver with qualities that have the potential to make him a future no. 1, all while landing a top 5 QB.
Ill venture to say taking a QB at 4 may be more chickenshit than passing on one, unless they feel the guy is their guy. With all eyes on Clevelands QB situation, it would take some balls to stack the other side of the ball, even if its the correct move. If seen Bortles, Bridgewater and Manziel projected at pick one in various reputable mocks, Ive also seen Bridgewater fall past 4, Bridgewater to 26, and heard some experts say they wouldnt take Manziel in the first 3 rounds. Theres reason for so much fluctuation.
And I'll end with this. There's been some good debate here so far. I was part of a small board prior to finding this one. Glad you all have enough backbone to stand some ground when it comes to your opinion here. Didn't get enough of that there.
I don't feel like multi quoting because I'm lazy, so I'll just lump yours and mik's responses together.
Yes, I feel like there are two quarterbacks in this draft who could very well go on to have HOF careers. You can mark it down, and if I'm wrong five or so years from now I will eat the required crow.
As for the "we've picked more QB's in the last ten years than anyone else" bit- yes, that's true. But look at it this way, we've picked more QB's than any other team, yet we've only picked one in the top 20 since re-entering the league. Maybe that's telling?
None of our QB's drafted have been top ranked QB's, with the exception of Brady Quinn, who couldn't even hold on to a #1 spot in the weakest and thinnest QB draft in recent history. I'm not sure there's one QB of the only 8 or so drafted that year that still play.
We've gone the way of "let's bolster our roster and then plug in a middle round guy" multiple times. Charlie Frye and Colt McCoy were essentially the same draft pick just a handful of seasons removed. Even when we took Weeden in the first round, he wasn't in the top of the rankings, he was the 4th-5th ranked QB on the boards behind RG3, Tannehill, Luck and in some circles even Wilson.
As for getting a franchise ILB, CB, etc in one draft...my point in referencing Seattle was to show that franchise players, especially at defensive positions and offensive line, can be found easily outside the top 10. Wouldn't you consider Sherman a franchise CB? What about a Chancellor a franchise SS? Or how about Daryl Washington a franchise LB? There were two LB's and six DE/OLB's taken before Washington.
Yes, Mack has a good chance of being a franchise LB. But I believe Christian Jones fits Pettine's system better and has an equally good chance of having a franchise LB, and he can be had in the third round.
Same goes for a few CB's this season. I believe Roberson, SJB, and Purifoy can all find great success in Pettine's system. They have more than suitable man coverage skills, but are far from the best man cover corner. However, Pettine likes to run heavy nickel and dime, with multifaceted LB's up front, so we won't strictly be in man coverage all day.
The key to Pettine's defense is versatility, and there are very talented and very versatile players at areas of need in the 2-4th rounds.
I believe our franchise bookend RT can be found in the third.
I believe there are two or three WR's that would fit our needs perfectly and they'll all be available at #26 and most will be available in the second. One maybe in the third.
And, on top of all of that, I think Blake Bortles is by and large the most talented QB in this draft and we'll be kicking ourselves for missing the boat on him if we don't get him at #4.
So, in response, I too think we can get a franchise ILB, CB, and OT in this draft. And I also think that we won't have to squander our chances of getting a franchise QB at 4 to get any of those players.
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if i were to pick a QB at 4 it would be bortles too. does that mean he's ready to start right away, i don't know. i just don't want risk throwing this kid in until he's ready and we're sure of ourselves on the line.
what about C if mack walks? franchise RT? i thought schwartz was supposed to be that?
just mentioning these things to show what might be perceived on paper not always turns up on the field.
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On my phone and the mobile version doesnt have a quote button. This is back at Tim Couch.
Who are the guys you see as frachise possibilities at WR, CB, ILB, and OT?
I've been pretty high on Christian Jones as well. I think he has the most upside of the mid round ILBs. Seattle has turned some mid to late rounders into stars, but thats more of an exception to the norm for those picks. Are there hidden gems, yeah, but chances are slim on those guys. I've named my mid round WR and late round FS that I think are franchisers, I think Dakota Dozier could be highly productive at guard (not sure about how he'd do in a zone blocking scheme though), but I cant see any cornerbacks with the quickness and top end speed to be a stud, unless they're short, skinny and have short arms and small hands, which makes them a jump ball candidate.
If Bortles is our guy (the one guy I would actually be okay with at 4 for reasons you have mentioned and I think he has the highest ceiling), I could get on board with passing on Gilbert.
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