Hall of Fame Finalists Rejects
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I remember that at Don Coryell's funeral, John Madden basically said "I'm sitting in the front row
with Joe Gibbs and Dan Fouts and we're all in the Hall of Fame because of Don Coryell.
From SB*Nation:
"Coryell is credited with a laundry list of innovations. He was the architect behind the one-back formation, developed the "joker" tight end, pioneered the use of option routes, devised the flood route combination, conceived the numbered route tree/play-call lexicon, and was integral in the advancement of the use of pre-snap motion and running back screens"
"As a corollary, Coryell's innovations changed the way teams played defense (more nickel and dime), how they scouted players and what they prioritized in their players (speed, speed, speed and coverage ability)"
I remember that at Don Coryell's funeral, John Madden basically said "I'm sitting in the front row
with Joe Gibbs and Dan Fouts and we're all in the Hall of Fame because of Don Coryell.
From SB*Nation:
"Coryell is credited with a laundry list of innovations. He was the architect behind the one-back formation, developed the "joker" tight end, pioneered the use of option routes, devised the flood route combination, conceived the numbered route tree/play-call lexicon, and was integral in the advancement of the use of pre-snap motion and running back screens"
"As a corollary, Coryell's innovations changed the way teams played defense (more nickel and dime), how they scouted players and what they prioritized in their players (speed, speed, speed and coverage ability)"
All that innovation being true, the thing that holds him back from being selected I think is that none of his team's ever even made it to the SB.
For a QB like Dan Marino to never win a SB....but who puts up remarkable stats and performances...it is OK, he will get in. But for a coach to not get his team to a SB, in this day and age, it will be held against him.
The same is true for Marty Schottenheimer....who is #6 with most wins in history as a coach...200-126-1.....but couldn't get it done in the big one.
Dan Reeves, #8 in all time win. Took 4 teams to SBs.....Broncos 3, Falcons to their only SB appearance.......overlooked because he won none, lost 4. (But I guess you have to lose all 4 in a row......like Marv Levy, who is in)
Chuck Knox #9 in all time wins.
Pretty much if you don't win, you don't get in.
The only coaches besides Levy I believe that are not in are George Allen and Bud Grant.
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I remember that at Don Coryell's funeral, John Madden basically said "I'm sitting in the front row
with Joe Gibbs and Dan Fouts and we're all in the Hall of Fame because of Don Coryell.
From SB*Nation:
"Coryell is credited with a laundry list of innovations. He was the architect behind the one-back formation, developed the "joker" tight end, pioneered the use of option routes, devised the flood route combination, conceived the numbered route tree/play-call lexicon, and was integral in the advancement of the use of pre-snap motion and running back screens"
"As a corollary, Coryell's innovations changed the way teams played defense (more nickel and dime), how they scouted players and what they prioritized in their players (speed, speed, speed and coverage ability)"
All that innovation being true, the thing that holds him back from being selected I think is that none of his team's ever even made it to the SB.
For a QB like Dan Marino to never win a SB....but who puts up remarkable stats and performances...it is OK, he will get in. But for a coach to not get his team to a SB, in this day and age, it will be held against him.
The same is true for Marty Schottenheimer....who is #6 with most wins in history as a coach...200-126-1.....but couldn't get it done in the big one.
Dan Reeves, #8 in all time win. Took 4 teams to SBs.....Broncos 3, Falcons to their only SB appearance.......overlooked because he won none, lost 4. (But I guess you have to lose all 4 in a row......like Marv Levy, who is in)
Chuck Knox #9 in all time wins.
Pretty much if you don't win, you don't get in.
The only coaches besides Levy I believe that are not in are George Allen and Bud Grant.
All that innovation being true, the thing that holds him back from being selected I think is that none of his team's ever even made it to the SB.
Yeah, perhaps Don should have aimed some of that offensive innovation at the defensive side of the ball.
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Very surprised Marvin Harrison didn't get in. He's a superior receiver to Tim Brown (who got in).
Stupid.
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Zombo said:
Neither are worthy.
Zombo
But here is something to support his cause: the Hall of Fame has published it All Decade Teams. Here are the quarterbacks chosen to represent each decade:
20s: Jimmy Conzelman and Paddy Driscoll
30s: Dutch Clark, Arnie Herber, Cecil Isbell
40s: Sammy Baugh, Sid Luckman, Bob Waterfield
50s: Otto Graham, Bobby Layne, Norm Van Brocklin
60s: Bart Starr, John Unitas, Sonny Jurgenson
70s: Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Ken Stabler
80s: Joe Montana and Dan Fouts
90s: John Elway and Brett Favre
00s: Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.
Favre, Peyton and Brady are not eligible yet......but the only other people on the above list that are not inducted into the HOF are Cecil Isbell, and Ken Stabler.
I figure that an argument can be made that if a guy is good enough to be All Decade, he should be good enough to be in the HOF.
But here is something to support his cause: the Hall of Fame has published it All Decade Teams. Here are the quarterbacks chosen to represent each decade:
20s: Jimmy Conzelman and Paddy Driscoll
30s: Dutch Clark, Arnie Herber, Cecil Isbell
40s: Sammy Baugh, Sid Luckman, Bob Waterfield
50s: Otto Graham, Bobby Layne, Norm Van Brocklin
60s: Bart Starr, John Unitas, Sonny Jurgenson
70s: Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Ken Stabler
80s: Joe Montana and Dan Fouts
90s: John Elway and Brett Favre
00s: Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.
Favre, Peyton and Brady are not eligible yet......but the only other people on the above list that are not inducted into the HOF are Cecil Isbell, and Ken Stabler.
I figure that an argument can be made that if a guy is good enough to be All Decade, he should be good enough to be in the HOF.
Well, the guy that picked Stabler over Tark was smoking crack. Did they have crack then?
Plus, Stabler was pretty bad in the 80's bouncing around with Houston and NO.
Love the Snake, just don't think he needs to be in the Hall.
Zombo
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But here is something to support his cause: the Hall of Fame has published it All Decade Teams. Here are the quarterbacks chosen to represent each decade:
20s: Jimmy Conzelman and Paddy Driscoll
30s: Dutch Clark, Arnie Herber, Cecil Isbell
40s: Sammy Baugh, Sid Luckman, Bob Waterfield
50s: Otto Graham, Bobby Layne, Norm Van Brocklin
60s: Bart Starr, John Unitas, Sonny Jurgenson
70s: Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Ken Stabler
80s: Joe Montana and Dan Fouts
90s: John Elway and Brett Favre
00s: Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.
Favre, Peyton and Brady are not eligible yet......but the only other people on the above list that are not inducted into the HOF are Cecil Isbell, and Ken Stabler.
I figure that an argument can be made that if a guy is good enough to be All Decade, he should be good enough to be in the HOF.
Well, the guy that picked Stabler over Tark was smoking crack. Did they have crack then?
Plus, Stabler was pretty bad in the 80's bouncing around with Houston and NO.
Love the Snake, just don't think he needs to be in the Hall.
Zombo
Zombo said:
Well, the guy that picked Stabler over Tark was smoking crack. Did they have crack then?
Plus, Stabler was pretty bad in the 80's bouncing around with Houston and NO.
Love the Snake, just don't think he needs to be in the Hall.
Zombo
Now that I look at Tark's stats ... maybe Stabler was better than Tark in the 70's. But Tark was a lot better in the 60s than Kenny was in the 80's, so no comparison there.
Stabler had a 75 rating and threw a ton of picks, playing almost half his career in the post 1977 passing era ... I just think his lifestyle and knee surgeries did him in and he didn't have the sustained success a HOF should have.
Zombo
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Eddie DeBartolo Jr. 3
Art Modell 2
The son of an old time Cleveland mafioso, oh no wait, a shopping center magnet and Art Modell? Art should have been fitted for concrete overshoes and dumped off the 9th street pier. The Mofo fired Paul Brown, moved the franchise, his name should be vilified by any oldtime Browns fan.
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But here is something to support his cause: the Hall of Fame has published it All Decade Teams. Here are the quarterbacks chosen to represent each decade:
20s: Jimmy Conzelman and Paddy Driscoll
30s: Dutch Clark, Arnie Herber, Cecil Isbell
40s: Sammy Baugh, Sid Luckman, Bob Waterfield
50s: Otto Graham, Bobby Layne, Norm Van Brocklin
60s: Bart Starr, John Unitas, Sonny Jurgenson
70s: Terry Bradshaw, Roger Staubach, Ken Stabler
80s: Joe Montana and Dan Fouts
90s: John Elway and Brett Favre
00s: Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.
Favre, Peyton and Brady are not eligible yet......but the only other people on the above list that are not inducted into the HOF are Cecil Isbell, and Ken Stabler.
I figure that an argument can be made that if a guy is good enough to be All Decade, he should be good enough to be in the HOF.
Well, the guy that picked Stabler over Tark was smoking crack. Did they have crack then?
Plus, Stabler was pretty bad in the 80's bouncing around with Houston and NO.
Love the Snake, just don't think he needs to be in the Hall.
Zombo
Zombo said:
Well, the guy that picked Stabler over Tark was smoking crack. Did they have crack then?
Plus, Stabler was pretty bad in the 80's bouncing around with Houston and NO.
Love the Snake, just don't think he needs to be in the Hall.
Zombo
The company I worked for had seasons for the Oilers and the Astros. Stabler was fun to watch and he was pretty productive. I have to say though, you think Johnny parties, holy crap, The Snake would put him to shame. He was all over town during that era.
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Very surprised Marvin Harrison didn't get in. He's a superior receiver to Tim Brown (who got in).
Stupid.
Very surprised Marvin Harrison didn't get in. He's a superior receiver to Tim Brown (who got in).
Stupid.
I think it is a matter of timing. While I agree with you that Harrison had a more productive career, the voters knew that Brown had waited quite a while and that "his time was due". Look how long Cris Carter and Andre Reed had to wait, both of which were perhaps ahead of Harrison. Harrison's "time will come".
I thought Pace and Warner would make it, but again as first time eligibles "their time did not come". Seau was getting in first ballot regardless.
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Very surprised Marvin Harrison didn't get in. He's a superior receiver to Tim Brown (who got in).
Stupid.
I think it is a matter of timing. While I agree with you that Harrison had a more productive career, the voters knew that Brown had waited quite a while and that "his time was due". Look how long Cris Carter and Andre Reed had to wait, both of which were perhaps ahead of Harrison. Harrison's "time will come".
I thought Pace and Warner would make it, but again as first time eligibles "their time did not come". Seau was getting in first ballot regardless.
I think it is a matter of timing. While I agree with you that Harrison had a more productive career, the voters knew that Brown had waited quite a while and that "his time was due". Look how long Cris Carter and Andre Reed had to wait, both of which were perhaps ahead of Harrison. Harrison's "time will come".
I thought Pace and Warner would make it, but again as first time eligibles "their time did not come". Seau was getting in first ballot regardless.
While I believe, and ultimately agree with you, making Harrison wait his turn for an inferior career in Tim Brown is an even bigger travesty. This has become more political than merit.
And Harrison was better than Reed and Cris Carter, as far as production goes.
Harrison: 14,580 YDS, 1102 REC, 13. 2 AVG, 128 TDs in 13 seasons.
Carter: 13, 899 YDS, 1101 REC, 12.6 AVG, 130 TDs in 16 seasons.
Reed: 13, 198 YDS, 951 REC, 13.9 AVG, 87 TDs in 16 seasons.
He wasn't just some sneaky good WR, he was flat out amazing. The best route-runner you'll ever see (after Jerry Rice). And his numbers surpassed both of those HOFers. And don't get me started on Terrell Owens not getting in, regardless of his irate and diva-like nature. The man is arguably the 3rd best wide receiver ever.
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He wasn't just some sneaky good WR, he was flat out amazing. The best route-runner you'll ever see (after Jerry Rice). And his numbers surpassed both of those HOFers. And don't get me started on Terrell Owens not getting in, regardless of his irate and diva-like nature. The man is arguably the 3rd best wide receiver ever.
Just a guess but, as I recall, wasn't he involved in some 'off field activity' that took a lot of luster off him, in general?
Maybe some voters are taking that into account, not unlike with some baseball writers and PEDs.
Dunno.
"God is great. Beer is good. People are crazy." -
I think it is a matter of timing. While I agree with you that Harrison had a more productive career, the voters knew that Brown had waited quite a while and that "his time was due". Look how long Cris Carter and Andre Reed had to wait, both of which were perhaps ahead of Harrison. Harrison's "time will come".
I thought Pace and Warner would make it, but again as first time eligibles "their time did not come". Seau was getting in first ballot regardless.
While I believe, and ultimately agree with you, making Harrison wait his turn for an inferior career in Tim Brown is an even bigger travesty. This has become more political than merit.
And Harrison was better than Reed and Cris Carter, as far as production goes.
Harrison: 14,580 YDS, 1102 REC, 13. 2 AVG, 128 TDs in 13 seasons.
Carter: 13, 899 YDS, 1101 REC, 12.6 AVG, 130 TDs in 16 seasons.
Reed: 13, 198 YDS, 951 REC, 13.9 AVG, 87 TDs in 16 seasons.
He wasn't just some sneaky good WR, he was flat out amazing. The best route-runner you'll ever see (after Jerry Rice). And his numbers surpassed both of those HOFers. And don't get me started on Terrell Owens not getting in, regardless of his irate and diva-like nature. The man is arguably the 3rd best wide receiver ever.
While I believe, and ultimately agree with you, making Harrison wait his turn for an inferior career in Tim Brown is an even bigger travesty. This has become more political than merit.
And Harrison was better than Reed and Cris Carter, as far as production goes.
Harrison: 14,580 YDS, 1102 REC, 13. 2 AVG, 128 TDs in 13 seasons.
Carter: 13, 899 YDS, 1101 REC, 12.6 AVG, 130 TDs in 16 seasons.
Reed: 13, 198 YDS, 951 REC, 13.9 AVG, 87 TDs in 16 seasons.
OK, fair arguments.....but note, Carter and Reed each had to wait 8-9 years before being selected. Tim Brown too. Harrison will probably not have to wait as long.
He wasn't just some sneaky good WR, he was flat out amazing. The best route-runner you'll ever see (after Jerry Rice). And his numbers surpassed both of those HOFers. And don't get me started on Terrell Owens not getting in, regardless of his irate and diva-like nature. The man is arguably the 3rd best wide receiver ever.
Owens should and likely will get in....but he is not eligible until next year fyi. He may have to suffer a waiting period just like Reed/Carter/Harrison/Brown. That receiver position often has a log jam going for it.
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He wasn't just some sneaky good WR, he was flat out amazing. The best route-runner you'll ever see (after Jerry Rice). And his numbers surpassed both of those HOFers. And don't get me started on Terrell Owens not getting in, regardless of his irate and diva-like nature. The man is arguably the 3rd best wide receiver ever.
Just a guess but, as I recall, wasn't he involved in some 'off field activity' that took a lot of luster off him, in general?
Maybe some voters are taking that into account, not unlike with some baseball writers and PEDs.
Dunno.
He wasn't just some sneaky good WR, he was flat out amazing. The best route-runner you'll ever see (after Jerry Rice). And his numbers surpassed both of those HOFers. And don't get me started on Terrell Owens not getting in, regardless of his irate and diva-like nature. The man is arguably the 3rd best wide receiver ever.
Who are #1 and 2? Rice OK....but #2?
Also....I think Paul Warfield may have been a better route runner.
Just a guess but, as I recall, wasn't he involved in some 'off field activity' that took a lot of luster off him, in general?
Maybe some voters are taking that into account, not unlike with some baseball writers and PEDs.
Dunno.
No, I think his whole spat with Donovan McNabb ....plus the fact that he was seen as a cancer on the team.....is the only negative issue with him. But many people may take his side on the McNabb thing. TO is more likely to get in the HOF than McNabb.
But I am not aware of any "off field" issues. No drugs, wife beating, child abuse, screwing prostitutes. etc. etc.....is there? Unless I just forgot?
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Moss is far and away the 2nd best receiver. And to think, if he had half the work ethic of Jerry Rice, he would have obliterated every WR record.
Pity.
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Moss is far and away the 2nd best receiver. And to think, if he had half the work ethic of Jerry Rice, he would have obliterated every WR record.
Pity.
Moss is far and away the 2nd best receiver. And to think, if he had half the work ethic of Jerry Rice, he would have obliterated every WR record.
Pity.
He had more innate talent than Rice....than anybody ever maybe. Not so the work effort.
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I cant believe Kevin Green made the list over Clay Mathews Sr.... that's a crime..
Good point. Comparative stats:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GreeKe00.htm
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MattCl00.htm
It is clearly all about the sacks: Greene had 160 in his career, Clay 70
(but I have no doubt that Clay was the better all around LB)
Greene's sack total is third all time behin Bruce Smith and Reggie White. That is why he gets the attention.
And I guess there is something to be said about that.
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He wasn't just some sneaky good WR, he was flat out amazing. The best route-runner you'll ever see (after Jerry Rice). And his numbers surpassed both of those HOFers. And don't get me started on Terrell Owens not getting in, regardless of his irate and diva-like nature. The man is arguably the 3rd best wide receiver ever.
Just a guess but, as I recall, wasn't he involved in some 'off field activity' that took a lot of luster off him, in general?
Maybe some voters are taking that into account, not unlike with some baseball writers and PEDs.
Dunno.
He wasn't just some sneaky good WR, he was flat out amazing. The best route-runner you'll ever see (after Jerry Rice). And his numbers surpassed both of those HOFers. And don't get me started on Terrell Owens not getting in, regardless of his irate and diva-like nature. The man is arguably the 3rd best wide receiver ever.
Just a guess but, as I recall, wasn't he involved in some 'off field activity' that took a lot of luster off him, in general?
Maybe some voters are taking that into account, not unlike with some baseball writers and PEDs.
Dunno.
Yep, I was just going to chime in and say this. This article is a little dated but I recall hearing a lot that behind the scenes the guy was a huge dick and did a lot of questionably legal things:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/114971-marvin-harrison-the-nfls-quiet-bad-boy-wide-receiver
Of course that didn't stop Ray Lewis so who knows.
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Starvin Marvin and Warner should be no-brainers
Starvin Marvin and Warner should be no-brainers
Harrison passed over twice now. Warner once.
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Starvin Marvin and Warner should be no-brainers
Harrison passed over twice now. Warner once.
Harrison passed over twice now. Warner once.
Yeah I really don't put much stock in All Star appearances or Hall of Fame inductions as the defining moment of players' careers
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