Is it Ray Farmer or Mike Pettine who's responsible for this dumpster fire?
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Here's another article about the lack of talent thanks to Ray Farmer. . .
Ray Farmer, as it’s looking now, has had two fairly bad drafts in a row. His position with the franchise at this point should already be untenable.
Don’t take my word for it, let’s take a look at the two drafts that Farmer has had full control over and the status of the players taken:
Browns 2014 Draft Class:
1st Round (#8): CB Justin Gilbert: 3rd String Cornerback, Kick Returner
1st Round (#22): QB Johnny Manziel: Backup Quarterback
2nd Round (#35): OG Joel Bitonio: Starting Left Guard, Top 20 Guard Per PFF.
3rd Round (#71): ILB Christian Kirksey: Starting Inside Linebacker, Top Half Per PFF
3rd Round (#94): RB Terrance West: Traded To Titans where he is currently benched.
4th Round (#127): CB Pierre Desir: Backup Cornerback, has been a spot starter with Joe Haden constantly injured.
So out of six draft picks used in 2014 this draft, two are starting. One is performing at a high level (Bitonio), one around average for his position in the NFL (Kirksey). Two are backups (Manziel & Desir), one is a monumental bust (Gilbert) and one was traded away for being such a nightmare in the locker room (West).
Bottom line: One high level, impact starter so far out of six players. It’s worth noting that Farmer started this draft with 10 picks, and traded away or traded up to only take six players.
Browns 2015 Draft Class:
1st Round (#12): NT Danny Shelton: Starting Nose Tackle, ranked last among starting defensive tackles per PFF.
1st Round (#19): OL Cameron Erving: Backup offensive linemen
2nd Round (#51): OLB Nate Orchard: Backup outside linebacker
3rd Round (#77): RB Duke Johnson: Backup running back, but is used in an effective manner
3rd Round (#96): DT Xavier Cooper: Rotational defensive lineman, 2nd string.
4th Round (#115): S Ibraheim Campbell: Backup safety
4th Round (#123): WR Vince Mayle: Cut before season began.
6th Round (#189): CB Charles Gaines: IR, designated to return
6th Round (#195): FB Malcolm Johnson: Starting FB, among lowest ranked in pass and run blocking both by PFF
6th Round (#198): TE Randall Telfer: IR
7th Round (#219): ILB Hayes Pullard: Signed off Browns practice squad by the Jaguars
7th Round (#241): CB Ifo Ekpre-Olomu: IR
Bottom Line: While Danny Shelton is starting, it’s difficult to make the case that he’s an impact player at this point. The Cam Erving pick might look good in a few years, but it doesn’t take away from how terrible a practice it is to take backup/developmental players in the first round. Duke Johnson is really the only player from this class who really affected the outcome of games in a positive way at this point.
Farmer started with 22 draft picks, and he got to pick 18 players in his two years as general manager. That is enough to reload and rebuild a franchise. Farmer could have put nearly half the players on the roster himself. The verdict here is a brutal one; out of 4 first round picks, only one is starting and he’s playing at a level comparable to the bottom players in the NFL at his position. Justin Gilbert is a total bust as a cornerback, Manziel and Erving backups. The West and Mayle picks are laughably awful. Joel Bitonio has been a stud, while Desir and Kirksey have been solid when they’ve played. Duke Johnson has shown flashes of excellence. Overall however, disappointment isn’t even a strong enough word for how badly Farmer whiffed with all those picks and how far back he has set this franchise through the draft.
Rest of the article can be found here:
http://www.dawgpoundnation.com/2015/11/02/all-roads-lead-back-to-ray-farmer-in-browns-failure/
Here's another article about the lack of talent thanks to Ray Farmer. . .
Rest of the article can be found here:
http://www.dawgpoundnation.com/2015/11/02/all-roads-lead-back-to-ray-farmer-in-browns-failure/
Very similar to the take I posted a couple days ago, but I gave some consideration to Farmer being on the job only a short period before the 2014 draft.
But bottom line is Ray has not yet hit upon a true impact player yet. One, or more, may yet emerge out of his drafts, but none as of yet.
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Scientific theory needs to be tested, before its considered "proven"
And our players havent really been tested......so nothing has been proven.....
Heck, if it was "proven" that they sucked, they'd be gone....right?
Scientific theory needs to be tested, before its considered "proven"
And our players havent really been tested......so nothing has been proven.....
Heck, if it was "proven" that they sucked, they'd be gone....right?
West, Mayle both gone. Most others not being productive.
But then, some of that may be poor direction.
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Scientific theory needs to be tested, before its considered "proven"
And our players havent really been tested......so nothing has been proven.....
Heck, if it was "proven" that they sucked, they'd be gone....right?
West, Mayle both gone. Most others not being productive.
But then, some of that may be poor direction.
West, Mayle both gone. Most others not being productive.
Oh....I thought you said our high draft picks....and that they "flat out suck" vs not being productive(or even tested)
That our high draft picks just flat out suck has gone far beyond theory.
Oh....wait....you did.....
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West, Mayle both gone. Most others not being productive.
Oh....I thought you said our high draft picks....and that they "flat out suck" vs not being productive(or even tested)
That our high draft picks just flat out suck has gone far beyond theory.
Oh....wait....you did.....
Oh....I thought you said our high draft picks....and that they "flat out suck" vs not being productive(or even tested)
What do you consider high picks? 3rd/4th round as West and Mayle were?
Oh....wait....you did.....
Well....you seem to be saying that we don't know if these guys suck or if they are just not being given the opportunity.
Who the fuck are you? Luke McCown? "I bet those backups could really shine if they were just given a chance"
The coaching staff has not seen fit to put these guys in......so conclusion is that they suck.
But sure.....I am all for putting JMZ and Gilbert in to see what they can really do.
As someone said.... the worst we could do is we could lose by 24 instead of 17.
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2014 "high" picks were Gilbert, Manziel(both very unproven)....Bito & Kirksey(definitely DONT suck).....and West(there's 1)
2015 high picks were Shelton, Erving, Orchard, Duke and Cooper.....so, which of these is proven to suck?
I see 1 guy(West) that might meet your "flat out suckage" comment......one
4th round is not a high pick......and not starting isnt "proof of flat out suckage"....
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Oh....I thought you said our high draft picks....and that they "flat out suck" vs not being productive(or even tested)
What do you consider high picks? 3rd/4th round as West and Mayle were?
Oh....wait....you did.....
Well....you seem to be saying that we don't know if these guys suck or if they are just not being given the opportunity.
Who the fuck are you? Luke McCown? "I bet those backups could really shine if they were just given a chance"
The coaching staff has not seen fit to put these guys in......so conclusion is that they suck.
But sure.....I am all for putting JMZ and Gilbert in to see what they can really do.
As someone said.... the worst we could do is we could lose by 24 instead of 17.
Why would you be all for playing them.....if it's already proven that they suck?????....makes no sense, at all.....
....but Ive made my point and know you are incapable of letting an argument go....so, rather than spend six pages debating it, Im out......
yap yap away Gip....
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2014 "high" picks were Gilbert, Manziel(both very unproven)....Bito & Kirksey(definitely DONT suck).....and West(there's 1)
2015 high picks were Shelton, Erving, Orchard, Duke and Cooper.....so, which of these is proven to suck?
I see 1 guy(West) that might meet your "flat out suckage" comment......one
4th round is not a high pick......and not starting isnt "proof of flat out suckage"....
2014 "high" picks were Gilbert, Manziel(both very unproven)....Bito & Kirksey(definitely DONT suck).....and West(there's 1)
2015 high picks were Shelton, Erving, Orchard, Duke and Cooper.....so, which of these is proven to suck?
I see 1 guy(West) that might meet your "flat out suckage" comment......one
So you say anything round 1-3 is high? Beyond that, no?
4th round is not a high pick......and not starting isnt "proof of flat out suckage"....
No, but it IS evidence of it. (remember, you are dealing with a magistrate).
And further evidence may be revealed once they do hit the field.
But I certainly hope that once on that field that the evidence sine qua non, turns in their favor.
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Why would you be all for playing them.....if it's already proven that they suck?????....makes no sense, at all.....
....but Ive made my point and know you are incapable of letting an argument go....so, rather than spend six pages debating it, Im out......
yap yap away Gip....
Why would you be all for playing them.....if it's already proven that they suck?????....makes no sense, at all.....
....but Ive made my point and know you are incapable of letting an argument go....so, rather than spend six pages debating it, Im out......
yap yap away Gip....
Because I am granting a reprieve and allowing for the fact that while a prima facie case may have been submitted, mere indicative evidence is not "proof". (except in the case of the two players who are gone....who you too must concede have had final judgment rendered their way).
The prosecution has had their turn....an acquittal though cannot be directed against them. I am allowing that they now should have their turn at presenting a rebuttal.
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High picks....middle picks....late picks....
How can a 4th rounder be a high pick...?
Keep spinning it Gip...."flat out suckage" just became "evidence of possible suckage?"....hahaha.....lame
High picks....middle picks....late picks....
How can a 4th rounder be a high pick...?
Keep spinning it Gip...."flat out suckage" just became "evidence of possible suckage?"....hahaha.....lame
What is lame? My willingness to reconsider my position to give these players a chance...or your argument?...or your attitude?
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Can't we all just be friends and agree chilli has no place on spaghetti.
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Aha... there seems to be a split among the fans of who should own the blame...
Team Farmer or Team Pettine ??? Which side are you on???
Or will you defend neither?
#Justsayin' -
i gotta kinda defend both.
now next year you'll be hearing it from me if something doesn't get done in the draft and FA and our 'unproven players from farmer's first draft are all playing in canada or on justin blackmon's porch.
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Aha... there seems to be a split among the fans of who should own the blame...
Team Farmer or Team Pettine ??? Which side are you on???
Or will you defend neither?
Aha... there seems to be a split among the fans of who should own the blame...
Team Farmer or Team Pettine ??? Which side are you on???
Or will you defend neither?
Lets get O'Neil out of here....that could improve things for both of them.....because the biggest issue in my mind is the misuse of some of these guys....and the poor scheme/coaching they get from the DC.
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Here's another article about the lack of talent thanks to Ray Farmer. . .
Rest of the article can be found here:
http://www.dawgpoundnation.com/2015/11/02/all-roads-lead-back-to-ray-farmer-in-browns-failure/
Very similar to the take I posted a couple days ago, but I gave some consideration to Farmer being on the job only a short period before the 2014 draft.
But bottom line is Ray has not yet hit upon a true impact player yet. One, or more, may yet emerge out of his drafts, but none as of yet.
But bottom line is Ray has not yet hit upon a true impact player yet. One, or more, may yet emerge out of his drafts, but none as of yet.
Four yets in one line? OK Tour that is worthy of a 4th response in one week. Why didn't you just say, "Here fishy fishy."?
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I don't have a ton of confidence in Ray Farmer. Don't think Pettine has a lot of talent to work with.
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I don't have a ton of confidence in Ray Farmer. Don't think Pettine has a lot of talent to work with.
^^^^I don't have a ton of confidence in Ray Farmer. Don't think Pettine has a lot of talent to work with.
This.
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Maybe the Gilbert we saw last year who pretty much sucked is also making progress this year? He looks to be a pretty decent tackler and quick on special teams anyway.
Exactly.......and right now, Gilbert is our #1 rated special teams player....AND leads the team in ST tackles, even though he hasn't played as much as others....
And tackling is something some people said he couldnt do....and, let me tell you, head hunting on ST takes big balls and a lot of effort.....something else people have implied he doesnt have.....
So......???.......play him.....he's doing what he's supposed to do.....and is excelling.....play.....him.......NOW......
Exactly.......and right now, Gilbert is our #1 rated special teams player....AND leads the team in ST tackles, even though he hasn't played as much as others....
And tackling is something some people said he couldnt do....and, let me tell you, head hunting on ST takes big balls and a lot of effort.....something else people have implied he doesnt have.....
So......???.......play him.....he's doing what he's supposed to do.....and is excelling.....play.....him.......NOW......
Good stuff Mud! If we put a blindfold on him - he couldn't be worse in coverage than Bademosi. How Justin has responded to his Special Teams role says a lot about him. It's a blue collar role that a lot of players don't want to do. Where I thought he'd excel would be at returning kickoffs rather than covering them. Wrong again!
I was a BIG critic of Justin's tackling in the secondary; especially considering how good our corners have been at that art prior to 2015. Corners are often your last tier of defense out there so I hold them to high standards. As recently as our preseason game vrs Washington - not long after he got toasted by Garcon (who dropped it) he couldn't tackle a guy on the sideline or knock him out of bounds. He grabbed the guy instead of attempting to put a shoulder into him and wrap. That was consistent with many pre-draft reports that indicated he was going to need to improve his tackling at the next level. There were definitely reasons to be critical IMO.
All that said, tackling is something guys can improve if they work at it. Maybe I should have remembered that before I ran out of patience with him. Another thing to keep in mind when a guy plays corner is what kind of position is he in when the opponent makes a catch? Was he in a back pedal? Was he changing directions? Was there a chance to square up? How quickly does he adjust and get into position to tackle? Is he a good open field tackler? Big 12 games have a tendency to end up looking like basketball scores so my guess is there's some bad habits to straighten out even with talented guys.
What's changed? When you cover kicks, you're sprinting forward before get yourself under control as you get closer to the return guy so you can square up rather than run past the guy. If your role is contain on the outside- you keep the outside leverage and you can either run him down or into teammates to your inside. Justin has been dynamite. We should have done this with him last year rather than keep our entire fan base on alert that he's a bad boy and he's being grounded. Remember what turned a close Jax game into undoable? We replaced our punt returner in the 4th quarter with someone that hadn't been doing it (Poyer?) and he muffed/fumbled it away to with Jax inside our 10 yard line. We had a guy pegged by Mike Mayock as the best return man in the 2014 draft watching a much lesser return man botching that up.
Here's where we're at. Who would you rather have playing corner vrs Cincy - Gilbert or Bademosi? I never thought I'd be saying this after the preseason but I dare say Gilbert. And why? He's not playing like he's entitled. He's playing like he has something to prove.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
The thing I don't quite understand is this conspiracy theory that suggests Pettine for some deranged hatred of young players is keeping Manziel and Gilbert on the bench. He gets fucking trashed by fans, the same losing questions from the media, knows if he keeps losing he'll lose his job but every day in practice he sees two players that would upgrade their positions, make the team more successful and possibly save his job and he's says, "fuck it I hate young players"....smh
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