Not so Fast my Friends
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Zombo said:
It's going to be McCown and a rookie.
Osweiler re-signs, Cousins re-signs, Fitz probably re-signs.
Foles blows.
Zombo
Every QB that Jeff Fisher has has since Steve McNair has blown. Is it the QBs, or Fisher? Foles did awfully well under Chip Kelly. Maybe Kelly ends up in San Fran.
Every QB that Jeff Fisher has has since Steve McNair has blown. Is it the QBs, or Fisher? Foles did awfully well under Chip Kelly. Maybe Kelly ends up in San Fran.
Foles had a good year before the NFL caught up with Kelly.
He blows. Awful with the Rams. Lost his job to ... whoever.
Fisher doesn't have much to do with a QB sucking.
Z
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There will be McClown and a rookie and.....another vet. Get Drew Stanton.
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2014 is a very good draft to compare to this draft,,,at least in my view....
This year there are 3 guys and none of them have a consensus as being ''the one' and lots of division on which is the best. Very similar to the Carr - Bortles - Bridgewater - Manziel discussion.....
Personally, I wanted Bridgewater first, then Bortles....but wasnt sold on Bortles, cause I felt people were more enamored more with his size, than his actual talent. ....And I admit that I had zero interest in either Carr or Manziel.....But Carr has totally surprised me and I was way wrong about him.....Johnny hasnt surprised me and he has actually been worse than I thought he would be......And Bortles is about what I thought he'd be....the ideal body, without ideal QB skills.....and a project that would(and has) taken some time to develop....
And, if you look at Bortles at #3 or where Carr and Bridgewater went, Id say Bortles wasnt really a very good value....
Based "purely on production" and NFL readiness..... Bridgewater probably should have gone first.....the other guys were all more speculative imho
It always seemed strange to me we would pay $100,000 to make an analytical study on who the Browns should take in the draft at QB in 14 and the study said Bridgewater was the one and then we didn't follow through. Why even do a study like that if you are not going to follow through with the recommendation of the study?
"The study, which used advanced analytics to examine every quarterback who has played in the last two decades, concluded that the best quarterback in this year’s draft is Teddy Twatwater of Louisville.
What we don’t know is how much stock the current decision makers put in the study. If Banner thought it was useful but current General Manager Ray Farmer and coach Mike Pettine think the study is a bunch of hooey, then Browns owner Jimmy Haslam basically flushed $100,000 down the toilet. (Maybe he can make it up by withholding $100,000 worth of rebates from Pilot Flying J customers.) But if the Browns’ brass believes in the study, keep an eye on Bridgewater when the Browns’ second first-round pick comes up, at No. 26."
Maybe failure to act on their own analytical study and passing on Bridgewater and taking Manziel instead has made Haslam an even bigger fan of analytics now?
and passing on Bridgewater
Holy fuck.
Bridgewater would not sign here.
Get over this shit already - you're 100% wrong.
Your entire post is predicated upon the assumption that he would sign once drafted. His agent stated quite clearly "Cleveland is not the place he wants to be." Passing on him was, in fact, the right move.
There are of course other busts at the end of the first that year [Marcus Smith, Dee Ford, Jimmie Smith] but there are also hits [Deone Bucannon, Dominique Easley, Jason Verrett, Kelvin Benjamin].. so good players were still available other than He Who Shall Not Be Named.
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
and passing on Bridgewater
Holy fuck.
Bridgewater would not sign here.
Get over this shit already - you're 100% wrong.
Your entire post is predicated upon the assumption that he would sign once drafted. His agent stated quite clearly "Cleveland is not the place he wants to be." Passing on him was, in fact, the right move.
There are of course other busts at the end of the first that year [Marcus Smith, Dee Ford, Jimmie Smith] but there are also hits [Deone Bucannon, Dominique Easley, Jason Verrett, Kelvin Benjamin].. so good players were still available other than He Who Shall Not Be Named.
Oh it might well have been the right move but I guarantee you the fucker would have signed here.Holy fuck.
Bridgewater would not sign here.
Get over this shit already - you're 100% wrong.
Your entire post is predicated upon the assumption that he would sign once drafted. His agent stated quite clearly "Cleveland is not the place he wants to be." Passing on him was, in fact, the right move.
You really have to be elite to tell the team the drafts you to fuck off, you'd rather wait a season.
WSS
WSS
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It wasn't just any team, though - it was only Cleveland. He only denied one of 32. He said that pre-draft as well, so it's not like he was unclear.
He didn't say he'd hold out if NYJ drafted him, for example -- and they'd probably have done much better with him rather than the forgettable Calvin Pryor at the 18.
It's interesting debating counterfactuals.. because the only fact that was in the war room at the time was that he stated he wasn't going to sign.
Here's the thoughts that get me regarding that list, though, after Teddy is ignored: Was Manziel #2 on this analysis? If he actually was, wouldn't Haslam buy into analytics less at this point, because the list would have been shown to be a crapshoot?
Wouldn't a more plausible theory be... The study showed that Manziel was essentially undraftable [because of shyte ability to actually play quarterback, as we have seen, or because he as a person is not professional] but Haslam overruled the study and ordered the draft of Manziel -- and now is humble, thus willing to leave the football to the football people who were right all along???
"When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
Oh I remember his him running his mouth after he went to Minnesota, and his mommy or somebody saying they didn't want him to go to Cleveland.
If you say he was spouting off and telling people he'd refused to play in the NFL if he was drafted by Cleveland then you heard something that I don't know and don't really believe.
If you want to believe Haslem forced the team to take Johnny, go ahead. If you think he's just stupid and has now given his full faith to a cockamamie idea like analytics then we are in trouble. Two seasons from now he will be hiring a Rainmaker.
And if you want to think that analytics has proved that Bilgewater is the best quarterback of his class knock yourself out.
WSS
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The way I am reading what the Browns are going to be doing with analytics is that it is going to be another tool in the toolbox and not something they will solely rely upon. I like the idea. I hated to see us blow things up again but we were regressing and it started the previous season and continued until the last season. I am a big believer we need continuity but not continuity just for continuity's sake. Wash, rinse repeat...every 2 years fire HC and GM ...we are doing the same thing over and over and getting the same result but at least this time we are looking in a different direction by using analytics.
Farmer said he was the one who made the call on Manziel. Haslam said he didn't make that call. After the horrible signing of Dwayne Bowe I have no problem believing Farmer did make the call (like he has said).
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VesnaKociper said:
Gipper, here is the deal. Your reasoning is logical. But also, the reasoning of getting a QB first is logical. There is no one guaranteed way to build a championship team. Theisman's Skins had an unbelievable OL, Miami had balance everywhere, Denver and The first ravens was D, The Patriots were mostly unstoppable offense. Cowher did it by coaching up, not making mistakes, and playing hard block and tackle football.
Here is one thing I learned in business and in life; you can't copy success. It just doesn't happen. OJ, Brown, Franco, Payton... all great, all unique.Stabler, Staubach,, Williams, Warner, Brady, et. al....none of them were similar.
Each group of men will find its own personality, its own style, its own way to win. All the bullshit of who we MUST pick first, is just that, bullshit. It's rhetoric.'
The only sure fire way to build a winner is to have players that give their all, that don't make mistakes, that execute, that contribute no matter what. No matter who the Browns draft, without a defined team culture, strategy and focus, it won't matter who they draft. No one or two players is going to turn this shit bag into a winner. This draft is important, but it isn't the most important factor in the Browns becoming a winner.
Totally agree. And not an OL slight in sight
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Every QB that Jeff Fisher has has since Steve McNair has blown. Is it the QBs, or Fisher? Foles did awfully well under Chip Kelly. Maybe Kelly ends up in San Fran.
Foles had a good year before the NFL caught up with Kelly.
He blows. Awful with the Rams. Lost his job to ... whoever.
Fisher doesn't have much to do with a QB sucking.
Z
Zombo said:
Foles had a good year before the NFL caught up with Kelly.
He blows. Awful with the Rams. Lost his job to ... whoever.
Fisher doesn't have much to do with a QB sucking.
Z
Yet, all his QBs do suck.....even ones that were good elsewhere. He has a lot to do with choosing those QBs....who suck.
Fisher will have maybe 2 more years of grace with the Rams move to LA since he is a popular figure there from USC days.
Do you expect him to last after those 2 years? Not on his current path.
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and passing on Bridgewater
Holy fuck.
Bridgewater would not sign here.
Get over this shit already - you're 100% wrong.
Your entire post is predicated upon the assumption that he would sign once drafted. His agent stated quite clearly "Cleveland is not the place he wants to be." Passing on him was, in fact, the right move.
There are of course other busts at the end of the first that year [Marcus Smith, Dee Ford, Jimmie Smith] but there are also hits [Deone Bucannon, Dominique Easley, Jason Verrett, Kelvin Benjamin].. so good players were still available other than He Who Shall Not Be Named.
Holy fuck.
Bridgewater would not sign here.
Get over this shit already - you're 100% wrong.
Your entire post is predicated upon the assumption that he would sign once drafted. His agent stated quite clearly "Cleveland is not the place he wants to be." Passing on him was, in fact, the right move.
There are of course other busts at the end of the first that year [Marcus Smith, Dee Ford, Jimmie Smith] but there are also hits [Deone Bucannon, Dominique Easley, Jason Verrett, Kelvin Benjamin].. so good players were still available other than He Who Shall Not Be Named.
This is as dumb of a post as I have seen lately: If the Browns drafted Bridgewater he would have signed and played here. Simple as that. What was he going to do, sit out a year, not play....and be completely forgotten and fallen down to maybe be a mid round choice? His agent would not have put up with that.
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VesnaKociper said:
Gipper, here is the deal. Your reasoning is logical. But also, the reasoning of getting a QB first is logical. There is no one guaranteed way to build a championship team. Theisman's Skins had an unbelievable OL, Miami had balance everywhere, Denver and The first ravens was D, The Patriots were mostly unstoppable offense. Cowher did it by coaching up, not making mistakes, and playing hard block and tackle football.
Here is one thing I learned in business and in life; you can't copy success. It just doesn't happen. OJ, Brown, Franco, Payton... all great, all unique.Stabler, Staubach,, Williams, Warner, Brady, et. al....none of them were similar.
Each group of men will find its own personality, its own style, its own way to win. All the bullshit of who we MUST pick first, is just that, bullshit. It's rhetoric.'
The only sure fire way to build a winner is to have players that give their all, that don't make mistakes, that execute, that contribute no matter what. No matter who the Browns draft, without a defined team culture, strategy and focus, it won't matter who they draft. No one or two players is going to turn this shit bag into a winner. This draft is important, but it isn't the most important factor in the Browns becoming a winner.
Fair enough. All excellent points.
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It wasn't just any team, though - it was only Cleveland. He only denied one of 32. He said that pre-draft as well, so it's not like he was unclear.
He didn't say he'd hold out if NYJ drafted him, for example -- and they'd probably have done much better with him rather than the forgettable Calvin Pryor at the 18.
It's interesting debating counterfactuals.. because the only fact that was in the war room at the time was that he stated he wasn't going to sign.
Here's the thoughts that get me regarding that list, though, after Teddy is ignored: Was Manziel #2 on this analysis? If he actually was, wouldn't Haslam buy into analytics less at this point, because the list would have been shown to be a crapshoot?
Wouldn't a more plausible theory be... The study showed that Manziel was essentially undraftable [because of shyte ability to actually play quarterback, as we have seen, or because he as a person is not professional] but Haslam overruled the study and ordered the draft of Manziel -- and now is humble, thus willing to leave the football to the football people who were right all along???
It wasn't just any team, though - it was only Cleveland. He only denied one of 32. He said that pre-draft as well, so it's not like he was unclear.
He didn't say he'd hold out if NYJ drafted him
He didnt say he'd hold out here either....definitely would've signed. Just said he preferred Minnesota. after he was drafted by Minn.....
Oh I remember his him running his mouth after he went to Minnesota, and his mommy or somebody saying they didn't want him to go to Cleveland.
And if you want to think that analytics has proved that Bilgewater is the best quarterback of his class knock yourself out.
I think it was Devontes Parkers Mommy making all the noise......she was something else......
On the analytics....I dont think they can predict who will ultimately be the best(ceiling)...more about who wont be the worst or who is most likely to succeed at any level(floor)....
And, Id say, of the 4 main guys Bridgewater, Bortles, Carr & JFF.....3 of em had bigger question marks, risk vs reward.......and Bridgewater had the highest floor, but not the highest ceiling....making him a safe pick, but one who probably wouldn't become a superstar....
Bortles and Johnny had huge question marks creating more risk....but the reward factor was so much higher if they developed well...so, do you roll the dice on a star or take the safe hum drum pick??.....and, Im thinking, analytics will tell you who the safe pick is....
Wash, rinse repeat...every 2 years fire HC and GM ...we are doing the same thing over and over and getting the same result but at least this time we are looking in a different direction by using analytics.
I like the idea of trying something different too....repeating the same mistake over and over gets tiring...so this seems like an attempt not to do that.....
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It wasn't just any team, though - it was only Cleveland. He only denied one of 32. He said that pre-draft as well, so it's not like he was unclear.
He didn't say he'd hold out if NYJ drafted him
He didnt say he'd hold out here either....definitely would've signed. Just said he preferred Minnesota. after he was drafted by Minn.....
Oh I remember his him running his mouth after he went to Minnesota, and his mommy or somebody saying they didn't want him to go to Cleveland.
And if you want to think that analytics has proved that Bilgewater is the best quarterback of his class knock yourself out.
I think it was Devontes Parkers Mommy making all the noise......she was something else......
On the analytics....I dont think they can predict who will ultimately be the best(ceiling)...more about who wont be the worst or who is most likely to succeed at any level(floor)....
And, Id say, of the 4 main guys Bridgewater, Bortles, Carr & JFF.....3 of em had bigger question marks, risk vs reward.......and Bridgewater had the highest floor, but not the highest ceiling....making him a safe pick, but one who probably wouldn't become a superstar....
Bortles and Johnny had huge question marks creating more risk....but the reward factor was so much higher if they developed well...so, do you roll the dice on a star or take the safe hum drum pick??.....and, Im thinking, analytics will tell you who the safe pick is....
Wash, rinse repeat...every 2 years fire HC and GM ...we are doing the same thing over and over and getting the same result but at least this time we are looking in a different direction by using analytics.
I like the idea of trying something different too....repeating the same mistake over and over gets tiring...so this seems like an attempt not to do that.....
I like the idea of trying something different too....repeating the same mistake over and over gets tiring...so this seems like an attempt not to do that.....
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So? You think that you have to draft a high first round pick QB to take you to the Super Bowl win?
Not so fast my friends:
There have been 30 QBs that have won these 50 Super Bowls.
Of those....almost one half of them did not win the Super Bowl with the team that drafted them:
Len Dawson
John Unitas
Jim Plunkett
Joe Theisman
Doug Williams
Steve Young
Brett Favre
John Elway
Kurt Warner
Trent Dilfer
Brad Johnson
Drew Brees
Eli Manning
Peyton Manning #
of course, 2 of these were #1 overall picks that were traded immediately: Elway and Eli. But the fact is they are not with the team that drafted them. 14 of the 30 SB winning QBs were not drafted by the team they won for. #
And even of those that did win with the team that drafted them, they were not always necessarily first round picks. Almost half were not:
Tom Brady round 6 #199
Russell Wilson round 3
Mark Rypien round 6 #146
Jeff Hostetler round 3
Joe Montana round 3
Roger Staubach round 10
Bart Starr #200 (like round 17 at the time)
Ken Stabler Round 2
Only the following were first round draft picks that won the Super Bowl with the team that drafted them:
Joe Flacco
Ben Roethlisberger
Troy Aikman
Phil Simms
Jim McMahon
Terry Bradshaw
Bob Griese
Joe Namath AFL draft
Peyton Manning#
# Peyton you see now fits into the two categories as he won one with the team that drafted him...the Colts...then with a team that got him later, the Broncos.
17 of the Super Bowl winning QBs were drafted by that team #
So, as you can see, less than one third of Super Bowl winning QBs came from the first round of the team that drafted them. It is still probably the best statistical way of getting one....but it is not the only way.
My point is this: I am all in on the Browns getting that killer defense.....and then getting the good QB possibly by another method.
My point is this: I am all in on the Browns getting that killer defense.....and then getting the good QB possibly by another method.
i'm in!!
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Holy fuck.
Bridgewater would not sign here.
Get over this shit already - you're 100% wrong.
Your entire post is predicated upon the assumption that he would sign once drafted. His agent stated quite clearly "Cleveland is not the place he wants to be." Passing on him was, in fact, the right move.
There are of course other busts at the end of the first that year [Marcus Smith, Dee Ford, Jimmie Smith] but there are also hits [Deone Bucannon, Dominique Easley, Jason Verrett, Kelvin Benjamin].. so good players were still available other than He Who Shall Not Be Named.
This is as dumb of a post as I have seen lately: If the Browns drafted Bridgewater he would have signed and played here. Simple as that. What was he going to do, sit out a year, not play....and be completely forgotten and fallen down to maybe be a mid round choice? His agent would not have put up with that.
This is as dumb of a post as I have seen lately: If the Browns drafted Bridgewater he would have signed and played here. Simple as that. What was he going to do, sit out a year, not play....and be completely forgotten and fallen down to maybe be a mid round choice? His agent would not have put up with that.
Maybe, maybe not. http://www.si.com/nfl/audibles/2014/05/13/teddy-bridgewater-cleveland-browns-nfl-draft
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This is as dumb of a post as I have seen lately: If the Browns drafted Bridgewater he would have signed and played here. Simple as that. What was he going to do, sit out a year, not play....and be completely forgotten and fallen down to maybe be a mid round choice? His agent would not have put up with that.
Maybe, maybe not. http://www.si.com/nfl/audibles/2014/05/13/teddy-bridgewater-cleveland-browns-nfl-draft
Maybe, maybe not. http://www.si.com/nfl/audibles/2014/05/13/teddy-bridgewater-cleveland-browns-nfl-draft
I'd say that would be a pretty bold move for a guy who sneaked into the first round by the skin of his ass.
WSS
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Speaking of Albert- They just announced yesterday he was right about the existence of gravity waves. Took 100 years to prove it though.
http://www.space.com/31900-gravitational-waves-discovery-ligo.html
Gravitational waves were first predicted by Albert Einstein in his famous 1916 paper on general relativity. One of the central, and strangest, tenets of general relativity is that space and time are not separate things but rather are linked together in a single fabric: space-time. - -
Speaking of Albert- They just announced yesterday he was right about the existence of gravity waves. Took 100 years to prove it though.
http://www.space.com/31900-gravitational-waves-discovery-ligo.html
Gravitational waves were first predicted by Albert Einstein in his famous 1916 paper on general relativity. One of the central, and strangest, tenets of general relativity is that space and time are not separate things but rather are linked together in a single fabric: space-time. -Speaking of Albert- They just announced yesterday he was right about the existence of gravity waves. Took 100 years to prove it though.
http://www.space.com/31900-gravitational-waves-discovery-ligo.html
Gravitational waves were first predicted by Albert Einstein in his famous 1916 paper on general relativity. One of the central, and strangest, tenets of general relativity is that space and time are not separate things but rather are linked together in a single fabric: space-time. -Anyone that watched Sliders knew that. No?
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Speaking of Albert- They just announced yesterday he was right about the existence of gravity waves. Took 100 years to prove it though.
http://www.space.com/31900-gravitational-waves-discovery-ligo.html
Gravitational waves were first predicted by Albert Einstein in his famous 1916 paper on general relativity. One of the central, and strangest, tenets of general relativity is that space and time are not separate things but rather are linked together in a single fabric: space-time. -Speaking of Albert- They just announced yesterday he was right about the existence of gravity waves. Took 100 years to prove it though.
http://www.space.com/31900-gravitational-waves-discovery-ligo.html
I was wondering how they detected the waves, and knew what and how far away the triggering event was... now I know. Sweet...
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It wasn't just any team, though - it was only Cleveland. He only denied one of 32. He said that pre-draft as well, so it's not like he was unclear.
He didn't say he'd hold out if NYJ drafted him, for example -- and they'd probably have done much better with him rather than the forgettable Calvin Pryor at the 18.
It's interesting debating counterfactuals.. because the only fact that was in the war room at the time was that he stated he wasn't going to sign.
Here's the thoughts that get me regarding that list, though, after Teddy is ignored: Was Manziel #2 on this analysis? If he actually was, wouldn't Haslam buy into analytics less at this point, because the list would have been shown to be a crapshoot?
Wouldn't a more plausible theory be... The study showed that Manziel was essentially undraftable [because of shyte ability to actually play quarterback, as we have seen, or because he as a person is not professional] but Haslam overruled the study and ordered the draft of Manziel -- and now is humble, thus willing to leave the football to the football people who were right all along???
at least you're not a full-on mouth breather, oh wait, you are.It wasn't just any team, though - it was only Cleveland. He only denied one of 32. He said that pre-draft as well, so it's not like he was unclear.
He didn't say he'd hold out if NYJ drafted him, for example -- and they'd probably have done much better with him rather than the forgettable Calvin Pryor at the 18.
It's interesting debating counterfactuals.. because the only fact that was in the war room at the time was that he stated he wasn't going to sign.
Here's the thoughts that get me regarding that list, though, after Teddy is ignored: Was Manziel #2 on this analysis? If he actually was, wouldn't Haslam buy into analytics less at this point, because the list would have been shown to be a crapshoot?
Wouldn't a more plausible theory be... The study showed that Manziel was essentially undraftable [because of shyte ability to actually play quarterback, as we have seen, or because he as a person is not professional] but Haslam overruled the study and ordered the draft of Manziel -- and now is humble, thus willing to leave the football to the football people who were right all along???
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