First Round Busts

The Gipper

@stinkhole said:

Borderline busts? Bennie Cunningham and Eric Green were not borderline busts. Especially that big fat ass Green who was a 2X pro bowler. Playing 10 yrs. makes one a serviceable player. Cunningham started in 2 Super Bowls.

Speaking of Cunningham...you're old enough to remember this Gip.

A game in which the Browns were on the verge of breaking that Three Rivers Jinx when this happened....

(The second clip.).

By borderline I meant average players....not good, not bad. Average. Maybe Green was better than that....I will defer to your more intimate knowledge of their careers. I was going by the PFR career production values for each which were decidedly average. But Green with two Pro Bowls, yes, would be better. As far as that game, I recall that there was a major referee bad call that gave the Steeler's that game. Had instant replay been in effect it likely would have gone the other way.

One Post

Do a rewrite Gip!

The Gipper

Zombo said:

Yes, Oher is a very good player.

And Mike Phipps was not "borderline" he was down right shitty. C'mon Gip, you know better than that.

Oher never made a Pro Bowl.....so I can't give him anything other than borderline status. (again...borderline does not mean, bust...it means average. A "Plus" player is a really good player. While I would take him now at RT probably over what we have, he was not as good as Schwartz...and maybe we got someone on our roster who can do better....Coleman/Drango.

And, yes, I was being a bit kind to Phipps. He had his moments....even took the team to the playoffs. But I am not sure I would call his career a complete bust......it was borderline between being borderline and being a bust....so I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

I mean....he wasn't Quinn/Weeden/Manziel bust status. Fair to say?

The Gipper

One Post From the Truth said:
Do a rewrite Gip!

Re: being right.

I am.

Zombo

@the-gipper said:

Oher never made a Pro Bowl.....so I can't give him anything other than borderline status. (again...borderline does not mean, bust...it means average. A "Plus" player is a really good player. While I would take him now at RT probably over what we have, he was not as good as Schwartz...and maybe we got someone on our roster who can do better....Coleman/Drango.

And, yes, I was being a bit kind to Phipps. He had his moments....even took the team to the playoffs. But I am not sure I would call his career a complete bust......it was borderline between being borderline and being a bust....so I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

I mean....he wasn't Quinn/Weeden/Manziel bust status. Fair to say?

Weeden is better than Phipps. Because of how high he was drafted and the fact the he was drafted in an era where you developed young starters and took the lumps a lot longer, Phipps got quite a long look ... But he was really awful.

As for Oher, maybe it's your terminology. "Borderline" makes a reader think Borderline Bust in a thread about busts. If you mean Solid ... Then say solid.

If you are a tackle drafted #23 and you start every year for the first 8 years of your career, and you are the starting left tackle on two Super Bowl teams, that's a solid career and a good pick for the team that drafted him and won a Super Bowl with him playing left tackle.

Z

Bob806

@the-gipper said:
By borderl As far as that game, I recall that there was a major referee bad call that gave the Steeler's that game. Had instant replay been in effect it likely would have gone the other way.

Bingo....Larry Anderson fumbled the OT kickoff, Browns recovered on the 23 yd line...but wait, the "whistle blew."

I'm still not over it.

The Gipper

Zombo said:

Weeden is better than Phipps. Because of how high he was drafted and the fact the he was drafted in an era where you developed young starters and took the lumps a lot longer, Phipps got quite a long look ... But he was really awful.

I don't know if Weeden is better than Phipps. I kinda see them together hanging on the same vine. I only gave Phipps a bit more of a break because, as noted, he was the primary starter in a playoff year. But, yes, they are very similar.

As for Oher, maybe it's your terminology. "Borderline" makes a reader think Borderline Bust in a thread about busts. If you mean Solid ... Then say solid.

If you are a tackle drafted #23 and you start every year for the first 8 years of your career, and you are the starting left tackle on two Super Bowl teams, that's a solid career and a good pick for the team that drafted him and won a Super Bowl with him playing left tackle.

Well, I will say, he is not shite. How about serviceable.

Z

The Gipper

@bob806 said:

Bingo....Larry Anderson fumbled the OT kickoff, Browns recovered on the 23 yd line...but wait, the "whistle blew."

I'm still not over it.

Can we find a video of that?

One Post

@the-gipper said:

Re: being right.

I am.

Do as you're told.

The Gipper

@bob806 said:

Bingo....Larry Anderson fumbled the OT kickoff, Browns recovered on the 23 yd line...but wait, the "whistle blew."

I'm still not over it.

The game was heading to sudden death. For the Browns, it was a chance to finally exorcise some demons despite blowing the lead.

For Cleveland, the loss came in the most agonizing way possible: an egregious miscall.

Returning the opening kickoff of the extra session, Larry Anderson fumbled for the second time, and the Browns appeared to recover. Fans watched in stunned disbelief as the orange helmets pointed toward the opposing end zone, indicating a key turnover.

However, the officials ruled that their whistles had blown prior to the fumble, and the stadium erupted in glee.

Across television monitors throughout the Steel City and along the shores of Lake Erie, it was entirely apparent that Anderson fumbled. In that day, prior to instant replay, it didn't matter. The Steelers maintained possession.

(And Steeler fans wonder why fans of other teams feel that the refs always seem to do something to favor them. They think we are deluded. We are not. It really does happen that way.)

For some reason the youtube site that accompanied the above statement says that "the video has been terminated due to multiple third party infringement.

Yea....it is probably been infringed by others who have tried to put together a litany of video's where the Steeler constantly got help from the refs.

The following year, in Pittsburgh, it happened again. The Browns were leading by 10 points midway through the 4th quarter....and this happened:

The Steelers response drive saw a throw to Franco Harris in the flats cause more fans' hearts to hit their throats. Harris, who caught nine receptions to lead all receivers in the game, appeared to possibly fumble along the sideline. The officials incorrectly ruled that he was down by contact and the ball only dislodged because of the ground.

The Gipper

One Post From the Truth said:
Do as you're told.

As I tell myself, yes.

BaconHound

I'd put Haden, Mack & Metcalf in the borderline group. Haden and Mack haven't reached their career end and have peaks, valleys & injuries. Metcalf was a kick returner taken with the 13th pick. I like Metcalf but you gotta be an every down or three down guy in the top 20.

The Gipper

@baconhound said:
I'd put Haden, Mack & Metcalf in the borderline group. Haden and Mack haven't reached their career end and have peaks, valleys & injuries. Metcalf was a kick returner taken with the 13th pick. I like Metcalf but you gotta be an every down or three down guy in the top 20.

Let's see if any single person in here agrees with you. I don't.

Though, I will say, that as an offensive weapon, Metcalf was often misused by Bill Belichick. Instead of getting him out in space where he could do his magic, BB would too often just send him up the middle.

BaconHound

@the-gipper said:

Let's see if any single person in here agrees with you. I don't.

Though, I will say, that as an offensive weapon, Metcalf was often misused by Bill Belichick. Instead of getting him out in space where he could do his magic, BB would too often just send him up the middle.

Many in here believe Pryor is a Pro Bowl WR this season, not the best measuring stick. I guess 8,000 yards is pretty solid over a 13 year career and he probably was a bit underutilized. Yeah I'm probably off on that one.

77Bunghole

@the-gipper said:

Here is the breakdown for The Bengals since 1966:

Too Soon to Tell:

Cedric Ogbuehi

Darquez Dennard

Tyler Eifert...though he seems on the way to a plus grade

Busts:

Mike Cobb

Akili Smith

David Pollack

David Verser

Glen Collins

Chris Perry

Greg Cook

David Klingler

Pete Koch

Kijana Carter

Jack Thompson

Reinard Wilson

Rickey Dixon

Emanuel King

Billy Brooks

Ricky Hunley

Jason Buck

Keith Rivers

Borderline players:

Jermain Gresham

Charles Alexander

Peter Warrick

Brian Blados

Bill Kollar

Wilson Whitley

Mike Reid

Archie Griffin

Andre Smith

Dave Rimington

John Copeland

Joe Kelly

Brian Simmons

Tim McGee

James Francis

Ross Browner

Levi Jones

Glen Cameron

Alfred Williams

Leon Hall

Vern Holland

Plus players:

Kevin Zeitler

AJ Green

Sherman White

Darryl Williams

Jonathan Joseph

Eddie Edwards

Eddie Brown

Bob Johnson

Dan Wilkinson

Blair Bush

Isaac Curtis

Takeo Spikes

Willie Anderson

Justin Smith

Carson Palmer

Anthony Munoz

The Bengals breakdown is as follows:

Too soon: 5%

Busts: 30.5%

Borderline: 35.5%

Plus players: 27.1%

It seems more Bengals were more middle of the road rather than bust or hits.

IMO, several borderline players should be listed in the plus player category. They include Mike Reid, John Copeland, Brian Simmons, Tim McGee, James Francis, Alfred Williams and Leon Hall. Greg Cook was a casualty of injury. Cook was the best in the game at his position. Bill Walsh thought he was destined to win a few Super Bowls. He was that good.

The Gipper

77Bengal said:

IMO, several borderline players should be listed in the plus player category. They include Mike Reid, John Copeland, Brian Simmons, Tim McGee, James Francis, Alfred Williams and Leon Hall. Greg Cook was a casualty of injury. Cook was the best in the game at his position. Bill Walsh thought he was destined to win a few Super Bowls. He was that good.

I don't think so....as for an overall career the guys you mention either didn't last long or didn't produce up to their draft position. They stay in the middle of the road category. And yes, a short career can lead to an "average" ranking. The one guy I thought about was Reid.....I know he was a good player, but he was only in the league 5-6 years. And, yes, an injury can cause someone to be a bust. As with Cook the same can be said for Kijana Carter. Unfortunate, yes, but they still get the bust grade as they just didn't have much of a career.

Zombo

Mike Reid was excellent. 2 time All-Pro, 4 time all-AFC, retired to become a singer.

If you get five years from a guy and he excels at the top of the league for four of them, he's a plus.

Zombo

The Gipper

Zombo said:

Mike Reid was excellent. 2 time All-Pro, 4 time all-AFC, retired to become a singer.

If you get five years from a guy and he excels at the top of the league for four of them, he's a plus.

Zombo

I would want 8-10 years out of a guy like that to be a plus. (and he quit to play piano, not sing).

Zombo

@the-gipper said:
I would want 8-10 years out of a guy like that to be a plus. (and he quit to play piano, not sing).

Any system that has Mike Phipps and Mike Reid in the same category is flawed. One was a very good player for their team, one was a very bad player for their team. Reid was a two-time All Pro, considered the best of the best at his position. Mike Phipps threw 40 TDs to 81 INts in his time in Cleveland and consistently was ranked as one of the worst at his position.

Mike Reid left to become a full-time musician and songwriter, he does indeed sing:

The Gipper

OK, but I would be willing to drop Phipps down to bust....and put Reid on borderline plus vs. borderline bust. I probably should have had better categories like:

Plus

Solid

Borderline

Bust.

And Reid probably should have stuck to the piano. I mean, he is not totally unfortunate as a singer....but he won't cause anyone to forget Freddy Mercury.