First Round Busts
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One Post From the Truth said:
"bend but don't break Gipper"
Good leaders are alway flexible. George Washington had that reputation, as did Abe LIncoln, and Teddy Roosevelt. As do I. Hell, they should just put me up on Mt. Rushmore.
Mt Rushmore humm...Good leaders are alway flexible. George Washington had that reputation, as did Abe LIncoln, and Teddy Roosevelt. As do I. Hell, they should just put me up on Mt. Rushmore.
Gipper, I do believe that's way after your time. You should stick to hyroglifics.
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77Bengal said:
IMO, several borderline players should be listed in the plus player category. They include Mike Reid, John Copeland, Brian Simmons, Tim McGee, James Francis, Alfred Williams and Leon Hall. Greg Cook was a casualty of injury. Cook was the best in the game at his position. Bill Walsh thought he was destined to win a few Super Bowls. He was that good.
I don't think so....as for an overall career the guys you mention either didn't last long or didn't produce up to their draft position. They stay in the middle of the road category. And yes, a short career can lead to an "average" ranking. The one guy I thought about was Reid.....I know he was a good player, but he was only in the league 5-6 years. And, yes, an injury can cause someone to be a bust. As with Cook the same can be said for Kijana Carter. Unfortunate, yes, but they still get the bust grade as they just didn't have much of a career.
I don't think so....as for an overall career the guys you mention either didn't last long or didn't produce up to their draft position. They stay in the middle of the road category. And yes, a short career can lead to an "average" ranking. The one guy I thought about was Reid.....I know he was a good player, but he was only in the league 5-6 years. And, yes, an injury can cause someone to be a bust. As with Cook the same can be said for Kijana Carter. Unfortunate, yes, but they still get the bust grade as they just didn't have much of a career.
Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
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I don't think so....as for an overall career the guys you mention either didn't last long or didn't produce up to their draft position. They stay in the middle of the road category. And yes, a short career can lead to an "average" ranking. The one guy I thought about was Reid.....I know he was a good player, but he was only in the league 5-6 years. And, yes, an injury can cause someone to be a bust. As with Cook the same can be said for Kijana Carter. Unfortunate, yes, but they still get the bust grade as they just didn't have much of a career.
Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
I am not buying that at all....and, again, borderline doesn't mean borderline bust.
Leon Hall has played for 9 years...and has not made a single Pro Bowl. I think you have to make some Pro Bowls to be considered a plus player.
Joe Haden has only played 6 years and made several Pro Bowls.
Joe is a Pro Bowl player, Hall is not.
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
I would have to do more research on them....or actually, you need to produce evidence of your opinion before I revise my ranking.
But clearly you guys are freaked out over semantics with the term borderline. Like I said, I probably needed to break this down into the 4 categories that I had put above, instead of the original just 3 categories.
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Let's see if any single person in here agrees with you. I don't.
Though, I will say, that as an offensive weapon, Metcalf was often misused by Bill Belichick. Instead of getting him out in space where he could do his magic, BB would too often just send him up the middle.
Many in here believe Pryor is a Pro Bowl WR this season, not the best measuring stick. I guess 8,000 yards is pretty solid over a 13 year career and he probably was a bit underutilized. Yeah I'm probably off on that one.
Many in here believe Pryor is a Pro Bowl WR this season, not the best measuring stick. I guess 8,000 yards is pretty solid over a 13 year career and he probably was a bit underutilized. Yeah I'm probably off on that one.
Eric Metcalf's 2 punt returns to beat the Steelers in that one game makes him a plus player in the minds of the Browns....no matter what else he did in his career. Fair to say?
After watching that again, you can tell how happy Chris Collinsworth was to have that happen.
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Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
I am not buying that at all....and, again, borderline doesn't mean borderline bust.
Leon Hall has played for 9 years...and has not made a single Pro Bowl. I think you have to make some Pro Bowls to be considered a plus player.
Joe Haden has only played 6 years and made several Pro Bowls.
Joe is a Pro Bowl player, Hall is not.
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
I would have to do more research on them....or actually, you need to produce evidence of your opinion before I revise my ranking.
But clearly you guys are freaked out over semantics with the term borderline. Like I said, I probably needed to break this down into the 4 categories that I had put above, instead of the original just 3 categories.
Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
I am not buying that at all....and, again, borderline doesn't mean borderline bust.
Leon Hall has played for 9 years...and has not made a single Pro Bowl. I think you have to make some Pro Bowls to be considered a plus player.
Joe Haden has only played 6 years and made several Pro Bowls.
Joe is a Pro Bowl player, Hall is not.
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
I would have to do more research on them....or actually, you need to produce evidence of your opinion before I revise my ranking.
But clearly you guys are freaked out over semantics with the term borderline. Like I said, I probably needed to break this down into the 4 categories that I had put above, instead of the original just 3 categories.
Not that PFF is the be all end all, but I'll take their word over evaluating players based on how many pro bowls they made.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/five-years-of-pff-grades-top-10-cornerbacks/
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Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
I am not buying that at all....and, again, borderline doesn't mean borderline bust.
Leon Hall has played for 9 years...and has not made a single Pro Bowl. I think you have to make some Pro Bowls to be considered a plus player.
Joe Haden has only played 6 years and made several Pro Bowls.
Joe is a Pro Bowl player, Hall is not.
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
I would have to do more research on them....or actually, you need to produce evidence of your opinion before I revise my ranking.
But clearly you guys are freaked out over semantics with the term borderline. Like I said, I probably needed to break this down into the 4 categories that I had put above, instead of the original just 3 categories.
Not that PFF is the be all end all, but I'll take their word over evaluating players based on how many pro bowls they made.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/five-years-of-pff-grades-top-10-cornerbacks/
Not that PFF is the be all end all, but I'll take their word over evaluating players based on how many pro bowls they made.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/five-years-of-pff-grades-top-10-cornerbacks/
Well, I will take my own judgment. And the judgment of NFL players, coaches etc. who vote on the Pro Bowl.
There is no point in time that I would ever agree to trade Joe Haden for Leon Hall in their prime.. And another ranking system: PFR would tend to agree with my view.
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I don't think so....as for an overall career the guys you mention either didn't last long or didn't produce up to their draft position. They stay in the middle of the road category. And yes, a short career can lead to an "average" ranking. The one guy I thought about was Reid.....I know he was a good player, but he was only in the league 5-6 years. And, yes, an injury can cause someone to be a bust. As with Cook the same can be said for Kijana Carter. Unfortunate, yes, but they still get the bust grade as they just didn't have much of a career.
Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
Leon Hall a borderline player? That is just silly. He was a top-10 CB for a long time. He has certainly had a better career than Joe Haden who was listed as a "plus player."
Levi Jones and Brian Simmons were also very good players.
Levi Jones might make it to a "solid player", not a Plus player. Never in 9 years made the Pro Bowl. His CA is about average for a tackle. Make him a "solid"...not a plus
The same for Simmons. No Pro Bowls. Jones had a better annual average CA. His running mate Takeo Spikes is more what I had in mind for a plus player.
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The pro bowl is really about the worst way to evaluate players. It's not really worth discussing if you are sold on this idea that only players that make pro bowls are good. Vince Young made 2 pro bowls, was he a plus player? Joey Galloway never made the pro bowl. Fred Taylor never made a pro bowl. Marques Colston never made a pro bowl. All great players.
Haden was good early in his career but hasn't been good since 2013. Hall has always been good even if he hasn't made pro bowls.
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Justin Gilbert has just officially crossed into "bust" territory last night in my opinion.
There are several posters on this board that placed his shortcomings on the previous coaching staff.
This guy can't tackle, or cover a receiver and there's no way in hell Hue and company will be able to "coach him up".
I also agree with Zombo, it's time to part ways with Mingo.
Two things that will define you: Your determination when you have nothing. Your attitude when you have everything. - Mike McCartney -
Justin Gilbert has just officially crossed into "bust" territory last night in my opinion.
There are several posters on this board that placed his shortcomings on the previous coaching staff.
This guy can't tackle, or cover a receiver and there's no way in hell Hue and company will be able to "coach him up".
I also agree with Zombo, it's time to part ways with Mingo.
Justin Gilbert has just officially crossed into "bust" territory last night in my opinion.
There are several posters on this board that placed his shortcomings on the previous coaching staff.
This guy can't tackle, or cover a receiver and there's no way in hell Hue and company will be able to "coach him up".
I also agree with Zombo, it's time to part ways with Mingo.
I wonder WHY Gilbert even attempts to play...he shows the energy & passion of a "slug". Neither he nor Mingo show any instincts.
Mike
INÂ DORSEY I TRUST -
Justin Gilbert has just officially crossed into "bust" territory last night in my opinion.
There are several posters on this board that placed his shortcomings on the previous coaching staff.
This guy can't tackle, or cover a receiver and there's no way in hell Hue and company will be able to "coach him up".
I also agree with Zombo, it's time to part ways with Mingo.
I wonder WHY Gilbert even attempts to play...he shows the energy & passion of a "slug". Neither he nor Mingo show any instincts.
Mike
Absolutely Mike, Gilbert & Mingo are certainly athletic freaks and have the tools to be elite.I wonder WHY Gilbert even attempts to play...he shows the energy & passion of a "slug". Neither he nor Mingo show any instincts.
Mike
For some unknown reason (lack of football talent?) they just show no signs of potential.
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The pro bowl is really about the worst way to evaluate players. It's not really worth discussing if you are sold on this idea that only players that make pro bowls are good. Vince Young made 2 pro bowls, was he a plus player? Joey Galloway never made the pro bowl. Fred Taylor never made a pro bowl. Marques Colston never made a pro bowl. All great players.
Haden was good early in his career but hasn't been good since 2013. Hall has always been good even if he hasn't made pro bowls.
The pro bowl is really about the worst way to evaluate players. It's not really worth discussing if you are sold on this idea that only players that make pro bowls are good. Vince Young made 2 pro bowls, was he a plus player? Joey Galloway never made the pro bowl. Fred Taylor never made a pro bowl. Marques Colston never made a pro bowl. All great players.
Haden was good early in his career but hasn't been good since 2013. Hall has always been good even if he hasn't made pro bowls.
Hall has been average at best...except perhaps for one year. Haden had a bad year last year due to injuries.
You think you know more than the players of the NFL, the coaches of the NFL, the GMs of the NFL...who have put Joe Haden into the Pro Bowl....and who have never seen fit to put Hall into the Pro Bowl.
Hall: an average NFL player. Serviceable, yes. Probably better than a lot of guys the Browns have had.....but not a plus player.
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Justin Gilbert has just officially crossed into "bust" territory last night in my opinion.
There are several posters on this board that placed his shortcomings on the previous coaching staff.
This guy can't tackle, or cover a receiver and there's no way in hell Hue and company will be able to "coach him up".
I also agree with Zombo, it's time to part ways with Mingo.
Justin Gilbert has just officially crossed into "bust" territory last night in my opinion.
There are several posters on this board that placed his shortcomings on the previous coaching staff.
This guy can't tackle, or cover a receiver and there's no way in hell Hue and company will be able to "coach him up".
I also agree with Zombo, it's time to part ways with Mingo.
Who picked those guys? What kind of talent evaluation system do we have? (not to mention the JMZ fiasco)
Are Danny Shelton and Cam Erving playing at anything even approaching a C level grade of performance?
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Justin Gilbert has just officially crossed into "bust" territory last night in my opinion.
There are several posters on this board that placed his shortcomings on the previous coaching staff.
This guy can't tackle, or cover a receiver and there's no way in hell Hue and company will be able to "coach him up".
I also agree with Zombo, it's time to part ways with Mingo.
I wonder WHY Gilbert even attempts to play...he shows the energy & passion of a "slug". Neither he nor Mingo show any instincts.
Mike
I wonder WHY Gilbert even attempts to play...he shows the energy & passion of a "slug". Neither he nor Mingo show any instincts.
Mike
Though, actually, I saw Mingo make at least 2 good plays. For what that's worth (given that they were against like the Falcons third stringers)
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The pro bowl is really about the worst way to evaluate players. It's not really worth discussing if you are sold on this idea that only players that make pro bowls are good. Vince Young made 2 pro bowls, was he a plus player? Joey Galloway never made the pro bowl. Fred Taylor never made a pro bowl. Marques Colston never made a pro bowl. All great players.
Haden was good early in his career but hasn't been good since 2013. Hall has always been good even if he hasn't made pro bowls.
Hall has been average at best...except perhaps for one year. Haden had a bad year last year due to injuries.
You think you know more than the players of the NFL, the coaches of the NFL, the GMs of the NFL...who have put Joe Haden into the Pro Bowl....and who have never seen fit to put Hall into the Pro Bowl.
Hall: an average NFL player. Serviceable, yes. Probably better than a lot of guys the Browns have had.....but not a plus player.
Hall has been average at best...except perhaps for one year. Haden had a bad year last year due to injuries.
You think you know more than the players of the NFL, the coaches of the NFL, the GMs of the NFL...who have put Joe Haden into the Pro Bowl....and who have never seen fit to put Hall into the Pro Bowl.
Hall: an average NFL player. Serviceable, yes. Probably better than a lot of guys the Browns have had.....but not a plus player.
So your argument is that there is only one way to evaluate whether a player is good. Was he ever a pro bowler?
According to this line of thinking, Fred Taylor was "average at best" Joey Galloway was "average at best" And Vince Young who completed 51% of his passes, threw more INTs than TDs and had a 66 passer rating in 2006 was great because he was selected by "players and coaches" to go to the pro bowl? Great argument Gipper.
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Hall has been average at best...except perhaps for one year. Haden had a bad year last year due to injuries.
You think you know more than the players of the NFL, the coaches of the NFL, the GMs of the NFL...who have put Joe Haden into the Pro Bowl....and who have never seen fit to put Hall into the Pro Bowl.
Hall: an average NFL player. Serviceable, yes. Probably better than a lot of guys the Browns have had.....but not a plus player.
So your argument is that there is only one way to evaluate whether a player is good. Was he ever a pro bowler?
According to this line of thinking, Fred Taylor was "average at best" Joey Galloway was "average at best" And Vince Young who completed 51% of his passes, threw more INTs than TDs and had a 66 passer rating in 2006 was great because he was selected by "players and coaches" to go to the pro bowl? Great argument Gipper.
So your argument is that there is only one way to evaluate whether a player is good. Was he ever a pro bowler?
No, that is not the only way.....but it is a factor. See below. Career productivity is more of a factor.
According to this line of thinking, Fred Taylor was "average at best" Joey Galloway was "average at best" And Vince Young who completed 51% of his passes, threw more INTs than TDs and had a 66 passer rating in 2006 was great because he was selected by "players and coaches" to go to the pro bowl? Great argument Gipper.
That is your fairyland argument, it is not mine. I look at a variety of factors. Making a Pro Bowl is a factor when a person's career is otherwise un-notable...or is shortened somehow. Taylor and Galloway would have likely been some of the best producing performers at their positions in their careers. Taylor has a 110 Career Production Average. Galloway a 99. OUtstanding careers.
Leon Hall has a 56....about half what the other players you mention have. A very average career number for how long he played.
Average career production numbers. No Pro Bowls.....tells me that he was average and his peers thought the same of him.
Leon Hall was average.
Like the Mike Reid/Eric Green things. They had low production numbers because of a shorter careers, but were thought of enough by their peers and the people that evaluate talent to have given them two "All Star Game" appearances each, at least.
"All Star Game" appearances is an important factor when looking at a baseball player. The same is true for a football player.
I acquiesced on Green and Reid. Not so on Hall. A decent player perhaps. Not a huge talent comparatively.
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^ Well profootballfocus says that Hall was really good for a long time. He also received a really big second contract which teams don't give to average players. So I'm right and your wrong.
^ Well profootballfocus says that Hall was really good for a long time. He also received a really big second contract which teams don't give to average players. So I'm right and your wrong.
I don't see they said anything of the sort. Those numbers of his were average. Average.
And yes, the NFL actually does give big contracts to serviceable players.
I am not saying Hall if a bust. He was just a very average player. And 75-80 of the players that are in the league are in that same category.
And please....go ahead and ask anyone and everyone here if they would have traded Joe Haden for Leon Hall.
Average. Average White Band.
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